Bloody Sunday: Major challenge for Cameron

A Statesmanlike performance on a tragic situation.

You don't get closure by opening old wounds. More people might die because of this report, and it's just not worth it.

I still remember visiting Ireland (north and south) before the troubles. My overriding impression was of poverty and subsistence farming, outside Belfast and Dublin.

The United Kingdom has always been London centric. It treats its own people pretty badly outside the South East. Even today we suffer an economic policy that has destroyed the country for the short term benefit of the banks in London. The past was not a different World - it has always been such - the further away, the less important you were. You were just the cannon fodder for the good and the great.

I don't go back far enough the remember the potato famine of the 1840's but Ireland has suffered, mainly at the hands of the British civil service and has nearly always been out of the mind of those at Westminster. I do recall driving through the Republic and seeing the burnt-out ruins of large houses from where the Anglo Irish once ruled the land. Mostly the justifiable grievances of the Catholics were to do with civil rights and have always been to do with their justifiable claims for equal treatment with the Anglo Irish. I remember seeing a 'war' memorial to 'Mick, Paddy and Shamus done to death by the bloody black and tans' in a small Irish town.

The brutal clearances of the Scottish Highlands are a symptom of the same fault in Westminster. We need to hold up a mirror to London and the South East to understand the Irish problem - even today and that goes for the North East, Wales and Cornwall too! In hindsight I think is was the arrogance or the civil service and govenrment at Westminster created the conditions where justifiable grievances went unanswered and this fermented revolt and this led to the troubles. I hope this is reflected in the report, but life is too short to read all 5000 pages. And while we are about it why on earth was it printed - what a waste of trees - a CD disk would have sufficed!

I'd imagine this report and past expenses will be charged to the Defence Budget( and any future costs).
If one cannot ''defend the indefendable'' then it seems from David Cameron's mouth, any court action for compensation is a formality then ???

It's not a period in history that anyone looks back on with any fondness. Hope this is the end of it.

Well it was Blair's "baby" and if I may say so typical of the money squandering of him and his team.

David Cameron picked up the baton on the last mile because he had to but boy did he deliver a powerful, statesmanlike and poignant speech in the Commons.

I think the public are getting to know, like and trust him more day by day.

Cathartic it may be (the Saville review findings) but many won't even know what it was (including David Cameron). Time to accept it and move on.

"The past is gone, it is dead, let it sleep, its lessons alone are the things we should keep."

Cameron has shown himself to be a clever politician (with the statement on the Friday morning after the GE) and a statesman, with this spot on tone

Well done, finally a PM we can be proud of once more

Can we expect enquiries into IRA atrocities like Warrenpoint and the Lord Mountbatten killing ? Or would they not fit in to the nauseating program of one-way appeasement of terrorist murderers that Tony Blair started in the name of the "Peace Process" ? Caledonian Comment

Most of our regular bloggers know that I'm keen on full devolution for England and the establishment of a genuine English Parliament.

However, there is one part of the so-called United Kingdom that this blogger will be very glad to see the back of, and that is Northern Ireland.

We are involved there for historical reasons but history is dynamic not static so lets give Ireland back to the Irish*.

* Acknowledgements to Paul/Linda McCartney.

4

The soldiers have immunity from prosecution, in the same way that republican and loyalist murders have been treated

I would have no issue with compensation, after all, these people were murdered by the British Army

flame @ 6

"I think the public are getting to know, like and trust him more day by day."

I'm not.

No new bad things to say, though. His speech on this was perfectly fine.

8. At 6:19pm on 15 Jun 2010, CalComment wrote:
Can we expect enquiries into IRA atrocities like Warrenpoint and the Lord Mountbatten killing ? Or would they not fit in to the nauseating program of one-way appeasement of terrorist murderers that Tony Blair started in the name of the "Peace Process" ? Caledonian Comment

Interesting narrow minded view

This is yet another steaming freshly laid log laid by nu Liebour and left to be cleaned up by Cameron.

Did Liebour actually do anything useful?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Even with our wonderful new coalition of all the talents who are acting on behalf of us, the country, Labour still sneer and stare flat faced trying to trip up the government. Jack Straw positively smirking snidely when he thinks he can score a political point. I call for Straw to retire and for Caroline Flint to try and soften her face with a smile occasionally.

Mind you, they are a broken opposition and one should allow for it.

Thought Cameron got it just right with the announcement. There's nothing he can take personal responsibility for as this was a crime from a different generation.

I'd like to think that this inquiry draws a line under matters now I fear that the finger-pointing will start though. But what shouldn't be forgotten is that this was just one incident of many and that over the whole conflict both sides did things they ought to be sorry for.

Kevinb @ 10

... I would have no issue with compensation, after all, these people were murdered by the IRA.

Are the IRA going to compensate their victims families via NORAID and other 'funds'*?

No, I thought not.

PS. Only the biggest-mug-of-all-time, namely the English PAYE taxpayer funds 'compensation'.

* Monies extorted or stolen.

17

Why don't we sue the Danish/Norwegian government for the damage caused by Vikings?

There has to be a line drawn somewhere, sometime

You seem unprepared to do that

its important to make the distinction that what happened on Bloody Sunday was carried out by forces of the British state that occupies 6 counties in Ireland. Those that ask for inquiries into tragedies such as black Friday in Belfast have got to remember that it was terrorists with intent on causing death to innocent people that commutes these acts and not the British Army who were supposed to be there to protect both sides of the community.  

#12 - So it's "narrow minded" to suggest that IRA murderers should also have their crimes investigated ? Tony Blair didn't foster a "Peace Process" - he instigated an "Appeasement Process" whereby terrorists ended up getting government posts. And before you suggest I'm being sectarian, I'd happily jail UDA/UVF murderers too.
It's quite a precedent we have set - presumably in 30 years we'll be spending £400 million on another one-sided enquiry designed to award compensation to Afghans because British soldiers served in Helmand.

#12 Kevin b

Caledonian Comment is bang on. There is no difference between Paratroopers shooting civilians in Belfast and civilians blowing up Paratroopers at Warren Point. Murder is Murder, and no amount of hand-wringing and legal blustering will ever bring back the dead!

And as for your comments about murdered by the British Army, it is quite obvious you have never been involved with controlling a violent crowd. The men who open fire made that decision in split seconds, and their decision has been debated and dissected in court for twelve years. They would also be operating under rules of engagement. Not at liberty to discuss, but these rules are very, very carefully vetted by the Legal Beagles before they are issued. Those Paras will live with the consequences of their actions until they die. I would also bet that there are Republican and Loyalist ex terrorists out there who are now living with their conscience, and wishing they could turn back the clock and right their wrongs as well.

11 - I struggle to understand your view.

You accept that Cameron's performance on this issue was all that could be expected, yet you refuse to alter your view of him. How is it progressive thinking to be so stubbornly biased?

The Blood Sunday killings are held apart because of the significance to the Nationalist comunity. Peaceful protesters marching against the on-going sectarian persecution where murdered without provocation and with them died any reasonable belief in non-violent change in N.Ireland for decades. When innocent British subjects are treated the same as armed gun men you'd have to be insane to march anywhere in N.Ireland and not expect more of the same. The families of the innocent victims will hopefully get some peace for their sons, fathers and brothers, and despite any doom-sayers, this will do a lot to undermine arguments for a return to republican violence.

David Cameron should be thanked for at least doing what too many establishment figures have been doing and continue to do, i.e., facing up to the cowardly and murderous behaviour on that day. It shouldn't have taken £200 million and it sure as hell should not have taken 40 years. Though it seems snide, the statement means more coming from a Tory leader and may help easy fears of the Conservatives favouring unionism after the general election.

And for those that feel their need for justice is being overlooked take inspiration from the Bloody Sunday campaign, and I hope to Bob it is more swift.

20. At 8:41pm on 15 Jun 2010, CalComment wrote:
#12 - So it's "narrow minded" to suggest that IRA murderers should also have their crimes investigated ? Tony Blair didn't foster a "Peace Process" - he instigated an "Appeasement Process" whereby terrorists ended up getting government posts. And before you suggest I'm being sectarian, I'd happily jail UDA/UVF murderers too.
It's quite a precedent we have set - presumably in 30 years we'll be spending £400 million on another one-sided enquiry designed to award compensation to Afghans because British soldiers served in Helmand.

Removing the sectarian element means that I would not have posted the initial post

I do not agree with the fact that the inquiry was held, however I do agree with the apology

The IRA and UDA/UVF and others, were wrong

However, this has to be the end of it

Calling the Peace Process appeasement is the comment that angered me, as it reveals sectarianism, even though you denounce it

Enough is enough, we have to move on

I apologise if I sound preachy, I realise these are emotive issues, and all parties have to give ground

21. At 8:45pm on 15 Jun 2010, feduplittlefellow wrote:
#12 Kevin b

Caledonian Comment is bang on. There is no difference between Paratroopers shooting civilians in Belfast and civilians blowing up Paratroopers at Warren Point. Murder is Murder, and no amount of hand-wringing and legal blustering will ever bring back the dead!

And as for your comments about murdered by the British Army, it is quite obvious you have never been involved with controlling a violent crowd. The men who open fire made that decision in split seconds, and their decision has been debated and dissected in court for twelve years. They would also be operating under rules of engagement. Not at liberty to discuss, but these rules are very, very carefully vetted by the Legal Beagles before they are issued. Those Paras will live with the consequences of their actions until they die. I would also bet that there are Republican and Loyalist ex terrorists out there who are now living with their conscience, and wishing they could turn back the clock and right their wrongs as well.

I accept your post is well written, and well meaning, and take the comments in that way

I have friends in the Army, and know people killed in Afghanistan

However, I am not prepared to accept that firing into what was an unarmed crowd was ever acceptable

You may be surprised to hear that I support the Gilbralter killings, so I have an opinion on matters, and try to be as honest to myself as I can be

The one point you do not raise, is that the rules of engagement may well have been broken on this occasion

11, sagamix

I'm not.

No, you're still pining for Gordon.

Incredible.

andy @ catch,

"I struggle to understand your view."

Yes I know and it pains me, but I did offer you a workshop, didn't I? Ball in your court.

Kevinb wrote: "The soldiers have immunity from prosecution"
No they don't. They were granted immunity were self-incrimination. There's a huge difference. Please check your facts, or else we end up not believing anything you say - even if it's true.

27. At 9:36pm on 15 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
andy @ catch,

"I struggle to understand your view."

Yes I know and it pains me, but I did offer you a workshop, didn't I? Ball in your court.

NO SAGA

You dropped the ball, bit of an own goal with that one

27 - no it's you that needs a workshop

"The real world"


That would be a good title. Somewhat harsh, but one that would do you good.

28. At 9:40pm on 15 Jun 2010, tom_p_willis wrote:
Kevinb wrote: "The soldiers have immunity from prosecution"
No they don't. They were granted immunity were self-incrimination. There's a huge difference. Please check your facts, or else we end up not believing anything you say - even if it's true.

I don't understand your post, you seem to have missed some words out, please can you repost the proper version

Pretty much with you, Kevin, on this. BS was an appalling act - not one to hedge about with. Will add to "ban the BNP" and "raise the personal allowance" as okay things you've coughed out. Not much when set against all the other nonsense, but still, let's mark it. Pour yourself a drink on me. A soft drink, I mean - what they used to call pop, if you have any. Yes, have a pop and I'll have one too. Let's both have a pop.

John from Hendon (see above) should be a little less selective with his recollection of British history.

I find it incrdible that anyone could still believe that the potato famine was deliberately spread by the British: think about it, the landowners were British, they wanted the rent. No potatos, no tenants, no rent. End of story. Plus the British government of the day voted an unprecendetly large sum for the relief of the famine caused by successive potato crop failures.

That of course does not fit in with the Irish 'victim' mentality.
My Grandmother was Irish and she never stopped going on about it, despite being married to an Eglishman and living in londom for 80-odd years.

Now for the Highland clearances.
The Scots had tried and failed to re-establish the catholic Stuart dynasty, marching as far south as the east midlands before realising they had failed to rally the English populace to their cause and retreating to Scotland and the debacle of Culloden.
Sheep dont raise armies and invade England, they grow fat, grow wool and make money. If you were an landowner in Scotland what would you rather have on your land? Fractious, undisciplined, untrustworthy and clan-bound subsistence tenant farmers, or sheep? I know which I'd have!

It may also have eluded John froim Hendon's attention, but English peasants were pretty badly treated too.
The Enclosure Acts prevented access to common grazing land, forcing country folks to work full-time for a landownwer of farmer,at low wages, or leave the land and move to a town.
Later, landowners and the aristocracy flattened entire villages, dispossessing cottagers in the process, for no better reason than to improve the view from their great houses.
The majority of the people so uprooted, rather than sitting about moaning and nurturing their festering grievances, took themselves off to the towns and cities, providing the muscle to drive forward the Industrial Revolution.

Maybe The Irish and Scots should have tried it!

#25 Kevin b

The only man who can honestly determine if the rules of engagement were broken is the man who pulled the trigger. This is the case every time.

If you can stand in that mans shoes, at that time and that place, see, hear and experience what he did, then, and only then, are you in a position to pass judgement on his actions.

Sometimes, there are some sleeping dogs that should be left well alone. The only people to benefit from this tragedy have been the lawyers, and handsomely so in some cases! Perhaps one day we will get a political class that understand this.

#24 KevinB - can you please explain to me why describing the "Peace Process" as the "Appeasement Process" is sectarian ? The Good Friday agreement stipulated in writing that terrorist guns were to be handed over - NOT ONE weapon was. Tony Blair kept revising policy and trimming his sails, ready to do anything other than insist that the guns were handed over, not because he was statesmanlike, but because he was a moral coward. The men of violence on both sides of the sectarian divide exploited his weakness. The end result is that Northern Ireland may be quieter now on the surface, but it isn't any more integrated and all its fundamental problems remain to be exploited by any new generation of tearaways on both sides who don't feel ready yet to aspire to public office. And I'm afraid Saville and it's consequences may make that happen.

#8

Try really hard and if you can distinguish between symptoms (i.e. Warrenpoint and Mountbatten) and causes (i.e. military occupation by a foreign power (i.e. Britain) in another country).

Took them 40 years to tell us all what we knew already eh! Wonder when they'll release all the files that will tell us what they were up to these past 40 years in the North of Ireland.

Try some of the Murphy's..! It's pure teckle!

kevin @ 29

"You dropped the ball, bit of an own goal with that one"

Mmm, sure. If you have a minute, check out post 283 on the pensions thread. The poster appears completely clueless, doesn't he?

On economics and finance, anyway. Better on "human interest" stuff.

#36 - nonsense.

This is my world, Andy (30), and it is real. How could it not be when you're in it?

It is apparent that, as the nuances of Scottish highland and lowland history are, unsurprisingly, beyond your ken, chaps, or that of most of you, the arguably greater complexities of Irish history must also elude you.

While one cannot but have sympathy with the view that murder is murder whoever commits it and for whatever reason, holding firmly to the Caledonian conviction that we are all Jock Tamson's bairns, the trouble is that armies do commit murder (albeit judicially authorized) all the time, to remove obstacles, and that the IRA regarded itself as an army, hence the appellation, Irish Republican Army, whose purpose was to remove an obstacle, and that obstacle was you, the occupying power:

"The course of life and labour reminds me of a long journey I once took on the railway. Suddenly, there was a breakdown ahead, and passengers took the event in various ways. Some of them sat still resignedly, and never said a word. Others again, went to sleep. But some of us leaped out of that train, and ran on ahead to clear the road of all obstructions.” (General Michael Collins, a founder of the Irish Free State, Clearing the Road)

Nonetheless, one cannot help feeling sympathy with any poor soul caught up in communal violence, on either side, whether they be the victims of a British military atrocity or a couple of hapless occupying-power soldiers caught on camera some years ago driving straight into a republican funeral, whereupon they were removed from their vehicle and immediately done to death by the crowd. Horrendous. What to do about it all?

It was once put to me by an anglo-Irishman, in the 1970s, as it happens, that there was only one way in which the remaining Irish question could be successfully addressed and that that was to resettle the British loyalist population in Blighty. Impractical, alas. It was later put to me by a non-anglo Irishman that there was indeed only one way in which the Irish question could be successfully addressed but that that was to hold a referendum in Ireland to determine whether a majority of the population of the whole of the island wished the Six Counties to become part of the Irish state. This would have been what is known as a democratic solution, but, as the occupying power would never agree to that, it continued to define itself as an obstacle to be removed so far as the IRA was concerned.

Mr Blair, of course, came up with a third way, which removed part of the obstruction. Clever man. Power sharing would appear to be a brilliant idea, if it can be made to work and to go on working. If you can find anyone in Sinn Féin who does not regard it as merely a means to an end, however, I'll buy you all a pint.

It's always best that the truth comes out.

To deny bereaved families the truth compounds the feelings of injustice. The report does not undo what has been done, but hopefully it gives the families some sense of vindication and an opportunity for healing.

35

I just don't agree with you, I am afraid.

Blair was and is a coward, and don't forget it was the conservatives under John Major, who was NOT a coward who started talks wit the IRA

Remember, the IRA had lived by the no surrender creed, and giving weapons to the British was considered as surrender

There has been terrific progress in NI, and clearly tensions will remain under the surface for many years to come

This is why I feel calling it the appeasement process is inaccurate and wrong

The IRA have largely been true to their word, and the loyalist equivalents as well, if slightly behind the curve

The real IRA and criminal gangs of both persuasions, and punishment beatings do still happen, yes

Celebrate the progress and build on it. Much progress has been made, yet you are of course right to point out that much needs to be done.

The best way of ensuring further progress is made is to ensure that the vast majority on both sides want peace.

My view is this is where we are, and the future is still positive

40

Careful your anti-Englishness is shining through (again)

In Ireland a lot of progress has been made and a precedent set with the amnesty towards convicted terrorists and the disarming of both nationalist and loyalist paramilitaries. The same amnesty needs to be extended to those of the security forces which overstepped the mark in dealing with those who chose to use violence to further their political views.

Should there be felt a need to explore old grievences further, the example set by South Africa, where the atrocities of both apartheid and anti-apartheid activists were examined via the Commission for Truth and Justice - looking at fact and open admission of evildoing without recrimination or prosecution - should be considered as a way forward.

As somone who served three tours of duty in Northern Ireland,having been shot at whilst searching for and disposing of bomds and devices. I hope that this dose not open up old wounds on both sides of the people . I hope Ministers like Martin Mcguiness should take the same veiws that were taken by mandella and tutu trying to ensure the harmony and progress continues.

If this report heals old wounds and fosters reconciliation, then it's been worth it. If it leads to revenge attacks - then what a waste of 12 years and £200m. It's time to draw a line under the troubles.

45. At 09:15am on 16 Jun 2010, jim3227 wrote:
As somone who served three tours of duty in Northern Ireland,having been shot at whilst searching for and disposing of bomds and devices. I hope that this dose not open up old wounds on both sides of the people . I hope Ministers like Martin Mcguiness should take the same veiws that were taken by mandella and tutu trying to ensure the harmony and progress continues.

Let us hope so

This whole sorry story is so sad. So much pain on both sides.

'Revenge is corrosive to the soul: it makes you bitter and unhappy. It seems easier to revenge than to forgive but then it does not give you peace of mind; you remian the victim of the perpetrator. Forgiveness is not pretending that things are other than they are; rather it is the willingness to face up to the awfulness of what would require forgiving, but foregoing the right to retaliate. When I talk of forgiveness I mean the belief that you can come out the other side a better person, a better person than the one being consumed by anger and hatred. Remaining in that state locks you in a state of victimhood, making you almost dependent on the perpetrator. If you can find it in yourself to forgive then you are no longer chained to the perpetrator. You can even help the perpetrator to become a better person, too.' - Desmond Tutu.

This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain.

46

I think it cost £400M

This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain.

#10 kevinb I remember the incidents clearly what were the British troops doing in Ireland
After all it is part of the British isles is it not
I served side by side of some of the finest Irish lads you could wish to have as your mates,
I know who's side i would be on in case of another conflict like the last war.
In saying all i have i can't justify the shooting of lets not for- get the two lads in the way of a funeral cortège.
So come on Ireland lets place the hand of friendship as it was during the last war.

Difficult i know, but imposable no way..

#33. squatterswatter wrote:

"John from Hendon (see above) should be a little less selective with his recollection of British history. "

Sorry, but did you actually read #3? If you had you would have noticed that I was extremely censorious about the way that the British peasantry has been treated. If you think that I under egged it then perhaps your ability to understand english is at fault. You will note that I attributed the poor treatment of everyone outside the south-east and the city of London directly to the London centric emphasis of the UK (and before that Empire).

In #3 I blamed the way that we run things from the Civil Service and the way that they are recruited, where they work and their relationship with the money and landowning classes. I am happy to swap historical analysis of, for example, the causes of the English Civil War, but for brevity's sake I cut my contribution short. You will note that in #3 I did directly point out that it is my analytical view that the way that for example the North East and Cornwall are treated stems directly from the same London centric arrogance, perhaps you did not read that bit!

#53 continued. (further refutations)

I did not say in #3 that the potato famine was deliberately spread - that is a fiction in your own mind - again try reading what is written! My reference to the potato famine was to the way that its seriousness was not appreciated by the Civil Servants in London. squatterswatter TRY READING WHAT IS WRITTEN, before you rant!!!

I was making the case against the way that the Empire was, and the the UK is run and how the permanent government of the UK mainly exists to perpetuate itself rather than to be the servants of the Nation and of its people.

(And by the way I still take the view that the Highland Clearances were a monstrous social evil, whereas you seem to take the landowners (bankers) point of view!)

#34
The only man who can honestly determine if the rules of engagement were broken is the man who pulled the trigger. This is the case every time.

If you can stand in that mans shoes, at that time and that place, see, hear and experience what he did, then, and only then, are you in a position to pass judgement on his actions


I would agree whole-heartedly with this statement, especially as I am a former soldier having served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Civilians cannot understand the fear and pressure which soldiers on operational duty are under, especially in Northern Ireland and Afghanistan, where the enemy are indistuinguishable from civilians. Any decision must be taken swiftly, yet there are decades later to pick it apart. Indecision cost lives in battle.

But what truly worries me is the prospect of prosecution for these soldiers. Please stop and think of the consequences that a precedent such as this would set. How can a soldier on the ground in Afghanistan make a decision when potential prosecution is added to fear for his own life? Will we have people from the Falklands, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Bosnia and Kosovo seeking prosecution?

Furthermore, there is no talk of prosecution for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, the latter of whom was at Bloody Sunday "almost certainly" armed with a weapon, and has possibly committed other acts of terrorism, and is now taking my hard-earned taxes in wages.

Finally, I would like to urge those in a position to influence these events, to STOP AND THINK of the consequences, both in terms of prosecution for soldiers, and the peace and stability of the Northern Ireland region, which is taking tentative steps towards a peaceful future.

50. Kevinb

It does not matter if it cost £400 billion. The fact is that the British army, along with the British state, told lies and covered up state sponsored terrorism. If they had told the truth and convicted the guilty soldiers, the inquiry would not have been needed.

52. scorpio33

So come on England put your hands up and admit your terrorist acts in Ireland, dating back hundreds of years. Then we can all move on.

For your information, Ireland and its islands are not part of Britian. The British Isles are England, Scotland, Wales and their islands. Not Ireland and her islands and that is a fact.

Moderators

You forgot this one. Are you afraid of the truth???

10

Nothing wrong with Irish lads, especially if the subject is Rugby

Hope will win the day if the bigots and violent seekers are marginalised, and the communities realise that peace means that everyone wins

Presumably lord snooty had to ask the civil servants what 'bloody sunday' was, given that he was SIX at the time of incident.

Personally I hold with the approach taken by south africa: if the war is over then it is over for everyone. What a wonderful thing it is over. People - including the soldiers - should be free to tell the truth in the knowledge that there will be no repercusions.

If the soldiers are to be investigated/prosecuted over events so long ago, then ex-terrorists who are now government ministers should be investigated/prosecuted as well. There must be equity in the way people are treated. However, I do not think any of that is desirable - just be glad it is over.

Well, the relatives are satisfied for now, but remember for every person that you appease in the hate-filled cauldron that is Northern Ireland, you annnoy someone else. I went there during the Troubles and the hatred was (and maybe still is), all-pervasive. Soldiers were attacked on occasions by otherwise normal, middle-aged women, who launched themselves at soldiers and literally took the skin off their faces with their nails. A discussion between young teenagers about the conflict ended in flying chairs and a fist fight. It's as if the people absorb bitterness and hatred with their mothers' milk. Remember the school incident where crying CHILDREN were made to run the gauntlet of bile and rage because they went to the 'wrong' school? I'll never forget the contorted faces, the spitting, the screamed insults - and all this by perfectly 'normal' citizens of NI. Where are those 'normal' people now and what do they feel about what they did? What those Paras did was deplorable, but unlike the terrorists they did not set out to kill and maim - they panicked because they feared a riot. It wouldn't have been the first time that a 'peaceful' march had ended in bloodshed even then. We'll never know what would have happened if those shots had never been fired, but a completely peaceful marches were as rare as hen's teeth in those dark days. Even the IRA admit that some of their people were armed. But history was written, and the events of Bloody Sunday have given them spurious justification for their violence ever since. Let us hope that they now stop hiding behind this and that they acknowledge their own mistakes too.

I appreciate that, as the governing power, our shirts must be seen to be the hairiest, but the truth of the matter is that there are many, many people who have got away with murder (sometimes literally), and if our Government and our Forces have to be brought to account then it's only fair that people on the Republican and Loyalist sides are made to squirm too. And before we applaud Cameron for his speech too much, let's wait and see how he is at apologising for mistakes that HE has made, rather than those of nearly 40 years ago.

By the way disgusted in Derry, I condemned the BS shootings, as you will have observed above

However, I do not feel that you are in any way correct in calling the British Army terrorists

Having read your previous posts, it is clear that you seem unwilling (unable?) to move on

If I am mistaken in thinking that you live in the past, please say so, I would be delighted to hear that

6. At 10:25am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
50. Kevinb

It does not matter if it cost £400 billion. The fact is that the British army, along with the British state, told lies and covered up state sponsored terrorism. If they had told the truth and convicted the guilty soldiers, the inquiry would not have been needed.

I was only correcting someone who said it cost £200M!

57. At 10:30am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
52. scorpio33

So come on England put your hands up and admit your terrorist acts in Ireland, dating back hundreds of years. Then we can all move on.

For your information, Ireland and its islands are not part of Britian. The British Isles are England, Scotland, Wales and their islands. Not Ireland and her islands and that is a fact.

Seems like you are in the past. I have condemned the British Army for the murders on BS

Will you condemn the IRA for the murders on the mainland?

61. LippyLippo
"they acknowledge their own mistakes"

I have not heard any statement of acknowledgement form the Paratroopers involved. Only to defend Wilford. What about SORRY and never mind the defence of Wilford please???

#57 Derry So in saying what you have you would prefer to be an island fool stop and just completely self supporting with no outside help what
so ever? hope Iran doesn't develop nuclear weaponry.

All of us have stuff to forgive, it's just a question of scale. If I wait until so-and-so admits what they have done and/or apologises then I am still their victim, still left dangling until they decide to do what I think they should. Or I can choose to cut myself free from them and be free of whatever it is that they have done to me.

I'm not trying to play down the situation in N.I. or the suffering of victims on every side, or indeed the suffering in so many situations around the world where people have deluded themselves into thinking that they are somehow separate from their fellow human beings and so could hurt them without hurting themselves. Sometimes forgivesness is a lifetimes' work. But better to work towards being free than to wait in chains.

I've become very aware recently of the need to be careful as to what we teach our children. My 8 yr old daughter was watching Germany play in the World Cup (nothing like watching twenty two grown men kicking a ball about for reviving old hatreds) and she suddenly said, 'I don't want Germany to win, I hate them.' This has come, it transpires, from learning about the two world wars at school and reading books such as Horrible Histories. A deep breath and a bit of a chat later and she could see the futility of 'hating Germany', not least the 11 blokes playing footie.

The UK is a proud and uncowardly nation. We can admit when we have made mistakes. Hopefully now we can move on from this terrible event.

The IRA terrorists and their state sponsors (i.e the USA) are also proud, but obviously a lot more cowardly. They do not have the dignity to apologise.

By setting this example to other countries with shameful pasts (e.g. China) we are leading the way in democracy and humand rights. Don't expect the terrorists and their sponsors to do the same.

#61 lippo nice to note a bit of common sense when a few other comments would appear other wise [well put]

63. Kevinb
"I was only correcting someone who said it cost £200M!"

I think it cost £191 million and well worth it. The British government now need to deduct the amount from the Paratroop regiment's budget.

p.s. A terrorist is "A person, usually part of a group,who uses or advocates terrorism". Is that not what the Paras did on Bloody Sunday. I'm sure I could (if I was allowed by the moderators) post quite a few videos showing British army terrorism in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. You Tube and Wikileaks are full of such videos.

As an aside, I just wonder what would happen if the violence flared up again. If the IRA attacked targets here and in NI as they did in the 70s and 80s. Would we be able to declare 'war on terrorists' a la Israel and America? Would we be able to bomb areas of Belfast because there might be a terrorist or two in there somewhere? Would our ol' mate Uncle Sam help us out with soldiers to patrol the streets and alleyways? Hmm! Or is it only OK to shoot non-white and non-Christian people?

64. Kevinb
"Will you condemn the IRA"

Of course I do. Will you condemn the terrorist actions of the British army. World wide acts of terrorism stretching back hundreds of years???

The individuals who fired these shots had to make split second decisions based on training, procedures, instructions and intelligence received on the day. Unfortunately, with hindsight they and their commanders probably got it wrong, they are undoubtedly living with the consequences every day. They probably believed that there was a threat and given that Martin McGinnis had a weapon (and probably others as well) this was well founded. No they shouldn't have lied and some are still justifying their actions but many people might in their situation. However, they have had to publicly explain their actions and may have to (eventually) answer to a court.
Why did members of the IRA have weapons that day if not to cause trouble and try and incite the army. From what I've read the Saville report does not look at this and was probably outside its scope (New Labour have form on restricting scopes of enquiries). It does however help in understanding the decision making on the day. As a former soldier whenever I hear of these types of events I can only feel "there but for the Grace of God" because I've carried a loaded rifle and often wondered how I would react knowing that the consequences of a mistake (and we all make them) are truly horrendous.
This is a world away from the terrorist who plots, plans and executes the planting of a bomb to kill civilians. I have seen little from any member of the IRA to suggest that they feel sorry for the consequences, many have been released early and therefore not paid the full consequences of their actions and some now have positions of influence.

66. scorpio33
"hope Iran doesn't develop nuclear weaponry"

I hope they do then Israeli will be on an equal par with them. Both oppressive nations with weapons of mass destruction!!!

Remember the "Corporal Killings" - 2 tortured and murdered for taking a wrong turning into a funeral. Those murders condemn the whole people of N. Ireland who cheered it to the rafters - murder by the civilian population was fair game and forgiven.
As long as enough money is poored into the province peace will prevail.
America poured money into the IRA - Obama is getting it back from BP.

"57. At 10:30am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
52. scorpio33

So come on England put your hands up and admit your terrorist acts in Ireland, dating back hundreds of years. Then we can all move on."

OK, really sorry about Drogheda. If I ever bump into Crowmwell or any of his soldiers, I'll be sure to tell them you're still angry.

68. RedandYellowandGreennotBlue

The UK is a cowardly nation. You can't admit when you have made mistakes without spending £191 million of the peoples money. Hopefully now we can move on from this terrible event.

The terrorist UVF and UDA and their state sponsors (i.e the British government) are also proud, but obviously a lot more cowardly. They do not have the dignity to apologise properly.

By setting this example to other countries with similar shameful pasts and shameful human rights records as the UK(e.g. China), the people of Derry are leading the way in showing how to stand up and be counted in the face of state sponsored terrorism. Don't expect the British terrorists and their sponsors in the British government to do the same.

TAL

70. At 11:25am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
63. Kevinb
"I was only correcting someone who said it cost £200M!"

I think it cost £191 million and well worth it. The British government now need to deduct the amount from the Paratroop regiment's budget.

p.s. A terrorist is "A person, usually part of a group,who uses or advocates terrorism". Is that not what the Paras did on Bloody Sunday. I'm sure I could (if I was allowed by the moderators) post quite a few videos showing British army terrorism in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. You Tube and Wikileaks are full of such videos.

No, it is not terrorism. Brutal, unacceptable, illegal, immoral, but not terrorism

At one level we can be relieved that the relatives of those killed have the formal knowledge and official apology that their loved ones were innocent victims.

At another level we must ask how long does it take and how much energy has to be spent for the blindingly obvious to be recognised at official levels?

For those who use this judgement to express a wider concern about all the victims of The Troubles, I wholly recognise their grief but their loved ones were not murdered by the forces of The Crown. This is the critical difference: it is not for the state to levy war upon the people. Indeed, we once executed a king for making that same mistake.

During the many years of The Troubles I argued with Provisional Sinn Fein that their armed struggle was pointless as it was only killing good people. Some of the content of their argument back has been articulated on this blog. I refuse sectarian and nationalist arguments although I understand a love for the land, the sustenance it can bring and the culture that makes it blossom.

As a descendant of evicted Irish, cleared Highlanders and enclosed out English and Welsh who all shipped up in the poorer parts of Victorian London I fully understand the nature of the history of these islands. This history is written in sectarian and nationalist language and as such it is rubbish, published only to divide us one from another so that we can be disciplined and ruled.

The real history of these islands is the story by which the poor are always dispossessed to subsidise the ample lives of the rich and powerful. If you hadn't noticed this story continues to this day.

I will ask again all those who are making sectarian or nationalist sentiments on this blog to stop picking on the differences and look to what you possess in common with the other side. There is far more there than what makes you different.

There is an argument for mutual respect. Believe you me, if there had been that in the first place then none of this dreadful business would have happened.

An inquiry would cost 'millions and millions of pounds'
The Government stepped up efforts yesterday to block an official inquiry into the July 7 London bombings by disclosing that the eight-year inquiry into the Bloody Sunday shootings had now cost the taxpayer £400 million.
The inquiry, ordered by Tony Blair in 1998, has still not produced its report into the deaths of 14 civilians shot by paratroopers during a civil rights march in Londonderry in January 1972.

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As the first anniversary of the Tube and bus bombings approaches, Downing Street and ministers cited the "awful" cost of the Bloody Sunday inquiry as a reason for rejecting growing demands from the relatives of victims and Muslim leaders for an official July 7 inquiry.
The Prime Minister said it would distract the police and security services as they tackled the continuing terrorist threat and in the end it would "tell us what we already know: that four individuals went and committed this act".
Last November the Government put the cost of Lord Saville's Bloody Sunday inquiry at £163 million. However, Tessa Jowell, let slip on BBC TV's Sunday AM programme that "the latest estimate. . . is about £400 million". She said that a July 7 inquiry would cost "millions and millions of pounds" and cause the diversion of enormous security and intelligence resources.

From the Daily Telegraph

72. At 11:28am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
64. Kevinb
"Will you condemn the IRA"

Of course I do. Will you condemn the terrorist actions of the British army. World wide acts of terrorism stretching back hundreds of years???

I think you will find that I have already done so

You musn't confuse the age of colonialism and imperialism with the modern era...all European countries were guilty of that

73. maidstonerichard
"Martin McGinnis had a weapon"

Page 46 of the report says McGuinness probably, probably had a weapon. It does not say he did have a weapon. Ivan Cooper, a Protestant civil rights campaigner said today he say McGuinness on the day. He said a Thompson sub machine gun would be hard to hide and he definitely did not see such a weapon.

Soldiers lied at two inquiries and should now be charged at the very least with perjury. Saville said that no gunmen or bombers were present in Glenfadagh park and that there was no danger posed to the soldiers in this area. This is where nine men where murdered, most shot in the back, one whilst lying wounded on the ground. The men who died in Glenfadagh park were brave men. The men who killed them were cowards, that is a fact!!!

14. At 7:27pm on 15 Jun 2010, Rob04 wrote:
#2
You don't get closure by opening old wounds. More people might die because of this report, and it's just not worth it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Old wounds? No closure?

Yes, Rob That's what I was suggesting. Well done!

Just not worth it? Waste of money?

Oh dear. Go back and read it again.

74. At 11:35am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY wrote:
66. scorpio33
"hope Iran doesn't develop nuclear weaponry"

I hope they do then Israeli will be on an equal par with them. Both oppressive nations with weapons of mass destruction!!!

If you give this a little more thought, I don't think you do...

The two hotspots in the world are Korea and Israel/Iran

We really do not want either going to regional war status, especially Korea

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.

Bloody Sunday was one of a number of tragic waypoints in Northern Ireland to the present day.

I believe that the Government at Westminster has been covertly trying to find a way out of NI for decades, and the sooner we English finally get to the exit, the better for all concerned.

60. At 10:35am on 16 Jun 2010, jon112uk wrote:

If the soldiers are to be investigated/prosecuted over events so long ago, then ex-terrorists who are now government ministers should be investigated/prosecuted as well. There must be equity in the way people are treated. However, I do not think any of that is desirable - just be glad it is over.

First time I've ever agreed with you, but I agree with every word of that.

75. pietr8
"America poured money into the IRA"

Did the British government, as well as the English people, not pour money into the UVF as far back as 1913? They did for sure and that is a historical fact!!!

#74 Derry ah well where would little old emerald isles be then when they start chucking them about then.?perhaps made into smaller islets .
with no people on them .[Go and give the mates a game of darts down at Murphy's you will feel better}

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78. Kevinb
"Brutal, unacceptable, illegal, immoral, but not terrorism"

Son a man running towards unarmed civilians, armed with an SLR, terrorising the people by shooting them dead, is not terrorist activity. Yes it is. You are a partisan bigot if you do not admit it as such and condemn it as such.

78. Kevinb
"illegal...but not terrorism"

So the illegal acts by loyalist and republicans are acts of terrorism, while the illegal acts by the British army are not acts of terrorism. You statement does not make sense!!!

81. Kevinb
"You musn't confuse the age of colonialism and imperialism with the modern era"

The modern era where the British army are involved in the illegal occupation (colonialisation) of many countries across the world. The modern era in which the British army and its axis of evil are murdering innocent men, women and children, so that the British people can be warm at night. Shameful lot I say...shameful lot indeed!!!

Glove puppet asks what did Labour ever achieve?
Well a bit more than the Tories ever achieved in Northern Ireland, I think, or has your selective memory managed to forget the shambolic policies of Heath and Thatcher in Ireland?
I'm glad Cameron has apologised for what the army did on BS, he should also apologise to all of us for the mess and misery caused by previous Tory 'crackdowns' which did nothing but bring terrorism to the streets of mainland UK.

72. At 11:28am on 16 Jun 2010, DisgustedinDERRY

A simpler solution to the whole thing back in 1972 would have been for our army to guard the border whilst we armed the protestants and left them to do a Kosovo. All over in a few months, death toll probably no higher than the eventual body count, permanent solution. Northern Ireland was not worth a single English life.

Personally I'm really pleased the blood letting is over, following the will of the people of the whole island of Ireland, not just the history obsessed biggots.

84. Kevinb

The new axis of evil, the US and British armies, allow Israel to use weapons of mass destruction on innocent civilians in Gazza. How many times have Iran used such weapons???

86. Its_an_Outrage
"ex-terrorists who are now government ministers"

I agree. Any British minister who is part of the government, and has served in the British armed forces, should be investigated in the off chance they have committed a crime such as that committed by British terrorists on Bloody Sunday!!!

Some have mentioned the role of the USA and its worth pointing out that if anything the US because of its large Irish American population and its influence stopped Britain behaving even more badly than it did in Ireland. You may not like it but really in hindsight the British should be very grateful to American politicians for that.

Someone (Rob04?) above made the point about what the files would reveal about British activities in Northern Ireland. Given that in the present day we make a lot of noise about the start of the Iraq War and David Kelly, these issues may seem like small beans when compared to what has been going on in Ireland.

88. scorpio33
"Go and give the mates a game of darts down at Murphy's you will feel better"

I don't play darts nor do I know of any Murphy's. I don't think some how that Iran would attack Ireland. Only if they miss England. If the British government were not illegally occupying other peoples countries, we would all be safe in our homes.

British government and its army = Colonialism and terrorism

@ feduplittlefellow, post #21;

"Caledonian Comment is bang on. There is no difference between Paratroopers shooting civilians in Belfast and civilians blowing up Paratroopers at Warren Point."

Well... I gotta point out, there is a slight difference. Namely, the Paratroopers in question had signed up to do a job where there is a very good chance of getting killed; the civillians had not.

But with the sentiment of your post, I entirely agree; there's little difference between British soldiers murdering civillians and Irish terrorists murdering civillians. I don't recall Adams or McGuiness ever apologising for anything; why on earth should Cameron feel obliged to?!?

And on an off-topic - but related - note; the next time I hear any American, anywhere, going on about how countries who harbour terrorists or terrorist financiers need to be invaded and regime-changed... I think we Brits should start supporting Al Qu'aeda.

If they can give the NORAID members a free pass to fund and support terrorism, I think we should do the same. See how they like it.

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