Crisis or opportunity?

Whatever their rhetoric before they are in power (or even while), all PMs know that Britain's prosperity is their number one priority, because that's what they'll be judged on. Faux concern about lost sovereignty, anti-democratic practices and the like is just playing to the gallery. They do the deals that they think will help UK trade. This was true of no-one more than Thatcher, who signed us up for Single European Act in full knowledge of its implications.

Nick.

It seems to me that the Coalition may have assembled a pretty formidable Europe balancing act with Hague at the sceptic end, Clegg at the enthusiast end and Cameron as the fulcrum. Hague and Clegg will be tasked with keeping the other 26 on their toes in Brussels and soothing the back benchers back home. This will leave Cameron free to 'rise above all that' and play the statesman. It may be a bit cynical but it sounds like a plan. In the meantime, they continue to get a good press wherever they go and I gather Spelman has impressed as well.

What I am slightly less comfortable about is all this talk of betrayal. The Tories did talk about constructive engagement prior to the election, both the coalition partners have moved about as far as they can without compromising the others cooperation and I have yet to see any symptoms that the coalition is about to walk away from their joint pledges.

Nothing short of withdrawal - or at least a return to a common market - will satisfy the die hard EU sceptics. The coalition cannot deliver this and I doubt if a Tory government with an overall majority would have tried.

My verdict is so far, so good.

It's a great time to be a European!

The argument that since we are in a crisis so political power must be centralised is a curse of modern times.

We are in the crisis partly because political power was centralised in the form of the Euro. The EU forgot that political power cannot substitute for harsh economic realities.

When the Euro was set up economic reality was cancelled as the EU took countries into the Euro which were quite ill-suited for any currency other than their own. So the act of creating the Euro was fudged for political reasons.

Now the selfsame group of people who made that mistake have come back declaring that they need even more control as they screwed up last time.

Why give more control to people who keep screwing up? It doesn't make sense, does it?

Paradoxically, just as in the past, it is a Conservative government that can take the UK deeper into Europe and will probably do so, because most eurosceptics are right wingers and would be reluctant to bring down a Conservative government. In any case, Mrs Merkel's proposals seem to amount to embedding right wing fiscal discipline into the EU, and would be politically attractive to those on the right.

Stanilic @ 4.

Agree, countries were shoe-horned into the Euro stretching the requirements laid down beyond breaking point.

Problem is and will remain managing a single currency without the corresponding fiscal and political union...hence the push for more of both.

have I miss-remembered or wern't we promised a referendum on Europe? (again)

It is quite obvious that your average back bench Tory would leave The EU tomorrow given the chance....this issue tore them apart before, it may well do the same again.

Don't rely on the Lib Dems to temper the coalition's policies in this area....quite honestly I forgot it was a coalition in power...I don't see much progressive centre influence in any of the Govt's actions so far.

The British prime minister is not about to use his first or, indeed, second or third EU summit to say "Never mind the crisis, I want to talk about returning powers to Britain over social policy and fishing rights".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

But on a fundamental level, those sceptical of the deeply tied Euro model would argue that by discussing the return of social policy and indeed (seemingly trivial) issues like fishing rights they ARE talking about the crisis.

The loss of identity:- get one person alone, they typically make sense. Get a group of people together, with good leadership, good ground and work can usually be produced. Put a group of groups together and the waters start to muddy; individuals at the bottom start to lose track of the boundaries of where their group starts and the others end. At this point they start to think 'What difference do MY actions make - the group of systems I am in surely won't be affected by it'. This interchangability starts to affect everything from the single person to whole industries.

Personally I'm not wholly negative about the European Alliance. It's just that everyone talks about the 'financial crisis' like it's an act of God. An isolated catastrophy. 'Something nothing to do with me, Jack'. Bankers shrug and blame the mortgage industries. The mortgage industries blame the lack of regulation and Government forces in terms of benefits. MP's blame...well, no-one since they always 'act within the spirit of the rules' ; ) When in fact all this is, is a mammoth economic chain reaction caused by the loss of accountability of where one finanicial system or group starts and ends.

If Cameron has any sense, he will get The FO and Europe Ministry much more involved at the time when EU initiatives commence - not when they are about to become part of Brussels legislation.

I have no love for the banking faternity, but the UK should retain direct control of finance services delivered within British jurisdiction.

I'm an amateur, but believe there are only two "significant" financial centres in Europe - based in London and Frankfurt - with the City being the bigger and more "expert" despite the stupidities Brown and Co tolerated.
I certainly don't want the money wizards of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc. having some "qualified majority" to preview UK budgets or tell our government how to get out of a mess.
(That view would apply, incidentally, whether the UK administration were Tory, Labour or LibDem. We have an opportunity every 5 years to throw out politicians we don't like or appreciate. Something we have no power to do with the appointed Commissioners.)

The other area needing rapid attention is the EU's request for an inflation-busting expansion of its budget at a time when governments across Europe are reining back their domestic spending.
Tell 'em to go jump, get real, work out a method to ensure they can convince the auditors that EU-dispensed money is properly accounted for and come back in three or four years when they have a clue how to achieve that.

Oh, and institute a totally transparent expenses system for MEPs and other EU employees, so we can work out whether we get value for money.

Odd, really. I'm very much in favour of a "Common Market" which we still don't have. But I don't like EU-centric assumption of powers.

The Euro could and should have been a positive signal of financial and economic cohesion. But the EU leaders and their cicil servants simply closed their eyes, suspended belief and cross their fingers when some of the nations quite flagrantly "cooked their economic books" in order to "qualify".
I was always surprised that the solid remnants of the Bundesbank tendency couldn't convince their political "masters" to tell some governments to come back and apply again once the applicants had stopped taking the "economic happy pills".

The idea – with an international currency – that you have some enforceable fiscal and budgetary rules (to complement the common monetary policy) applying to each member country seems perfectly reasonable. I actually see some merit in us, even though we’re not (as yet) in the Euro, voluntarily signing up to whatever is eventually agreed; we’ve lost Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling now, remember, and so could do with some outside help on such matters.

Well said Stalinic (at 4). Little more need be said.

It's all too easy to claim further powers in time of crisis. Just because it's an inconvenient time, this shouldn't mean that Cameron shies away from raising serious issues of erosion of sovereignty. This has been ignored for too long.

Quite frankly, sod the awkward timing. Even if we cannot right the wrongs of the EU's past, we can at least draw a line in the sand and say 'this far and no further'.

Anything less than that and Cameron will have failed to serve the interests of those who voted for him.

Does anyone really think the EU wants another row at a time when the wholesale credit markets have closed to the Southern European states?

They are all hands on deck stabilising theie own position and disagreeing about what it means for a potential economic government of Europe...which Sarkozy wants and Merkel doesn't.

It's more interesting to note that both the french and german leaders have fallen for David Cameron; like everyone does. But then again he's a tory, intelligent, personable, non ideological and pragmatic.

What's not to like?

It's a great time to be a tory...

I have little confidence in lord snooty - regardless of any rhetoric before the election. The election is over now and he doesn't need our votes any more.

We can see that he is still a poodle to the Americans - sorry BP and UK pensioners - no different from the last lot.

Why should we expect any more from him in europe?

Is the EU interested in what dept ridden little old england has to say ?Is the German chancellor going to take much notice ,I doubt it especially after bailing out Greece.
Think on.
was it not we want to be in it not run by it .
Can't have your cake and eat it.

What hope is there when esteemed BBC journalists misuse the word europhobe?

The big question is...where's Kevinb. This blog is nearly three hours old and no sign...is the man ill?

"8. At 1:00pm on 17 Jun 2010, craigmarlpool wrote:
It is quite obvious that your average back bench Tory would leave The EU tomorrow given the chance....this issue tore them apart before, it may well do the same again.

Don't rely on the Lib Dems to temper the coalition's policies in this area....quite honestly I forgot it was a coalition in power...I don't see much progressive centre influence in any of the Govt's actions so far."

There are still the old guard in the Tories who hate the EU but the Lib Dems have already tempered the Tory attitude to the EU. When VacuDave was expecting a thumping majority here, it was woe in the EU expecting a battle for every corner and every ditch. As he was unable to stand for anything and is now in coalition with the Lib Dems is much more pally time with the EU. Do not expect anything major going to the EU, but clawing back powers seems to be off the agenda now as well.

Saga @ previous blog - I’ll be very disappointed if nobody notices any difference.

#11 - we’ve lost Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling now, remember, and so could do with some outside help on such matters

It's not a promising start, is it.

#13 rR7
'What's not to like?'
His supporters.

Robin @ 13 wrote:
It's more interesting to note that both the french and german leaders have fallen for David Cameron; like everyone does. But then again he's a tory, intelligent, personable, non ideological and pragmatic.

What's not to like?

>>

But before the election, you described him as no better than Brown. (I think "Hobson's choice" was the exact phrase.) You are now a born-again Cameronite. When did the Damascene conversion take place? Was it when he (nearly) won?

7. Jon Cooper wrote:
have I miss-remembered or wern't we promised a referendum on Europe? (again).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you honestly think you would get one?
It’s one thing to make anti Euro rhetoric in opposition, but another to keep it up in Government.
Please don’t hold your breath waiting for this one; I just can't see it happening.

There’s only one way to save the ‘Euro’ currency, and the same applies to the Eurpoean Union.

The ECB will have to print more money and give it Greece, and then print some more and give it Spain and Portugal. The Irish won’t be happy though having already bit the austerity bullet.

It ceases to be a European Union if they let member states fail, it just becomes a European nonsense.

No bailout = No Union
No Union = No need for Euro Politicians

RockRobin7 @ 13.

Started early today haven't we? I suggest taking a little water with it.

14. jon112uk wrote:
We can see that he is still a poodle to the Americans - sorry BP and UK pensioners - no different from the last lot.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh I don’t know about that Jon; check out the first round of “unaffordable projects” to be cut.
Youth unemployment projects & manufacturing are right up there at the top.
What with the cut back in University places as well, it’s obvious that the Conning Lib’s can’t see a future for the next generation, let alone Europe.

For me opposition to the EU isn't about nationalism or idealism, it's because it just doesn't work. The only sustainable, democratic way to live is to 'think global, act local', the closest that I come to believing in a 'political' doctrine. In the UK the kinds of economic policies that favour manufacturing and productivity (such as it is) - notably interest rates - also encourage out of control property prices. Now, broadly speaking you are looking at a north/south divide between the areas where manufacturing is concentrated and that which has bonkers house prices. So (and bear in mind I have very little grasp of economics) as I understand it one interest rate doesn't work for the UK as a whole - so how the hell can it work for an entire continent?

For people to become truly empowered to have any say over their lives decisions need to be taken at grass roots level. The more centralised the decision making process is, the more divorced from it people become, the less they care and the more they are inclined to give up. There are numerous accounts of EU regulation strangling various types of innovative business start-ups, for example. I can remember when the loss of fishing jobs made the news, it was such an important industy. No longer. I would go further than pulling out of the EU and have very strong regional government throughout the UK as a whole, with central government overseeing things like defence and foreign policy.

I used to support the Green Party in part because of their policy to oppose further integration into Europe (including the single currency) simply on the grounds that it was bad for democracy and bad for sustainability. I tried to find out what their policy was for this election, but their website turned up nothing that I could understand. I'd love to find out if now that the Greens are a 'party of the left' they still have the same policy, if anyone knows.

But I'm probably talking out of my hat, so please feel free to tell me where I'm going wrong!

Yes, the very highly paid President Barroso of the UNELECTED European Commission.

Let's hope that David Cameron will explain in clear terms to Barroso that he is well paid, all powerful, but sadly the EU Commission costs all countries in the EU too much money and is disgustingly operating like a dictatorship?

Bring it on David Cameron - tell this unelected EU commission gravy train where to go. At the same time remind us in UK and all people across Europe how much the EU Commission cannot justify, never mind that they refuse to publish their staff salaries and unacceptable massive budget costs?

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

Come on Nick - investigate and expose the waste of the unelected EU Commission?

You are a respected political journalist - by our family anyway - so dig up EU Commission failures and waste of your money and ours too?

Go Nick Robinson - don't let us down? ps. our grandchildren watch you too - on BBC - because we do and are fans - bring it on Nick - restore faith in political reporting in UK and EU. Please?

Freeman @ 18.

You may be right...we'll wait and see.

15 Scorpio 33

Spain and Italy have a trillion Euro debt each, a big percentage of which is owed to little old England as well as France and Germany.

So somehow, albeit for slightly different reasons, I agree with Saga at 11 (who by the way does not have the monopoly when it comes to smugness).

rr7 @ 13

"It's more interesting to note that both the french and german leaders have fallen for David Cameron; like everyone does."

Has he fallen for them too, Robin? Or is he just a cad?

'opportunities' are for exporing, not grabbing.

#17 Craig I think Kevin b Has been a little bit disenchanted by the bbe
mods .
As he is as you know quite a good contributor to these pages.
with a much higher I.Q.than mine But then i know of my short comings and try to contribute to the best i can not every statement is fact but then who's infallible

It may seem that DC has some power ,...then you just have to look at those parties/individuals that he is aligned with.

NB.

Additional euro countries,like Greece, were taken into the euro when the euro was strong.

bovine @ 19

"It's not a promising start, is it."

Normally I'd respond to a hurtful jibe like this, come down like a ton of bricks on the person responsible such that they'd think long and hard before showing their face on here again, but the "new me" (as explained) is interested only in adding to the blog's stock of insight, knowledge and understanding re the issue of the day - Europe in this case - and so, with an enormous effort of willpower, it's turn the other cheek and it's No Comment. Principles maintained, dignity enhanced. Guess you've seen "Witness".

pdavies...

are you and all newlabour apologists stuck in a time warp? I suppose they do never change their minds on anything; from not being to blame for any of the economic mess they left us to having abolished boom and bust.

Some people move with the times and make a virtue out of a necessity. Harping on about the past is for losers.

It's a great time to be a tory...

"30. At 2:48pm on 17 Jun 2010, craigmarlpool wrote:
Freeman @ 18.

You may be right...we'll wait and see"

The only other option is likely to be another general election as one side or the other pulls the rug out. Even the most ardent EU lover or Eurosceptic knows that means risking their seat on the Westmidden gravy train. Some of the safe seaters may try it of course. ^^

forgottenukcitizen @ 25.

Yes...and so it begins...

Little Danny Alexander, Osbourne's fag, was made to announce them. Didn't it include cancelling the construction of a new hospital in Leeds?

I thought the NHS was excluded from the purge?

#31 Mr naughty. thank you for your enlightening re moneys due to great Britain from other member states .
But that dose not elevate from the fact that we have a vast debt problem ,
And debts have to be re payed one way or another. Great Britain in my opinion should be fully committed to the EU then have perhaps a greater say in things as it might appear two some others that we are only in it for our own ends of the sections we like and rejecting every thing else we don't like. We have to take the rough with the smooth.
Can you in all honesty give a valid reason why Germany and one or two of the more healthier states have two take any lessons from a nigh on bankrupt half in half out smaller state? Sorry if my answers are not to your liking as you must allow for my inadequacies or failure of the facts.

Scorpio33 @ 34.

No doubt his IQ is higher than mine too.

As you say one does ones best...

SSnotbanned @ 35.

Is Cameron still aligned to the parties in Europe that Clegg descibed on one of the TV debates as "a bunch of right-wing nutters."??

34. At 3:09pm on 17 Jun 2010, scorpio33 wrote:
"#17 Craig I think Kevin b Has been a little bit disenchanted by the bbe
mods .
As he is as you know quite a good contributor to these pages.
with a much higher I.Q.than mine But then i know of my short comings and try to contribute to the best i can not every statement is fact but then who's infallible"

One to cut, paste and frame for your grand children and pass round at dinner parties there Kev - you clever old clogs you.

I know it's hard for some of you Labour supporters to understand the current economic situation.....

So just imagine your elder brother has promised to buy you the best crayon in the world. The biggest brightest, colour changing, never running out crayon in the whole wide world costing a million pounds. You get all excited, of course you do, who wouldn't want such a crayon!

Then your mum comes along and explains that there isn't a million pounds in the household. Never was. The crayon itself is just a fantasy. You can't have it.

Of course you're disappointed. But as you get older, you realise that mum was right and that your elder brother was just peddling unsustainable dreams. You'll look back with a wry smile.

Robin @ 37 wrote:

Harping on about the past is for losers.

>>

I couldn't agree more. For example, it's so tiresome when people harp on about the last government. Move with the times, I tell them. The buck stops with Cameron now, stop blaming his predecessor. We're on the same page on this one, Robin.

11 "we’ve lost Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling now, remember, and so could do with some outside help on such matters."

Heard Darling on the radio stumbling his way through an interview about the banking crisis this morning

"w-w-w-w-what it w-w-was, um um, was um, no-one could um, it w-w-was the um architecture of the banking um regulatory um sytem at fault"

To which a classic response from the interviewer.

"if the architecture was to blame, what about the architect?" haha.

followed by more stumbling and umbling from darling.


As for Brown, isn't he skulking about at home? I hope Sarah has hidden all the mobile phones...or has very quick reflexes.

Well, at least we can sleep safe at night* knowing the recovery has begun in safe hands.

(*OK, saga, I know you can sleep in the day-time as well if you want).

25. At 2:20pm on 17 Jun 2010, forgottenukcitizen

Yes, their glee for cuts is different from the last lot, but not much else.

Clegg seems to have imposed a worst case scenario on us - thatcher's economics and labour's pathetic political correctness.

At least thatcher knew how to handle the EU.

'PS Mr naughty
Another little snippet for you .
I don't put into the debate a so called IQ test to be examined at the end of the session. As this is very annoying to others trying to perhaps gain a little higher education in life that they were unjustly denied by the last nu labour government.
Its still a great time to be a Tory.

craig @ 41

"No doubt his IQ is higher than mine too."

No shame to fall short of a 158. Mmm, yes, I know - but I prefer to think it's true.

Rushing the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty through in the middle of a banking crisis has only aggravated the problems of sorting out the mess that is now the European Union.

But it has been done and now we see the ramifications of a whole lot of sovereign states in turmoil and no-one who has any answers to the problems. Grasping at straws is about all they can muster.

It will take a completely new approach and fresh ideas and David Cameron could just turn out to be the man to come up with the goods.

Obviously it would not be a good time to cause immediate upheaval but the whole EU thing needs restructuring from top to bottom and like everything else needs to make drastic cuts in its administration costs.

Britain needs Europe and America to stay strong as trading nations for we will certainly need to prop each other up in the years ahead while world trade goes through a complete rebalancing.

Nice bit of creative writing at 44 there, Andy. Yes, liked it. And what's the point you're wanting to get over? You know, the political angle. Separate post on that perhaps?

It was doomed from the start. When the Euro was created, the europhiles just ignored economics completely; it was purely a political move and never did make economic sense.

Like labour bankrupting the uk by spending more than we earn every year (even during boom years), and like labour putting banking regulation in the bin and saying "yeah, just do what you want, we're not bothered, it'll all come out in the wash", the Euro currency project was something that never made logical sense and was always destined to create a disaster.

The disaster of the ERM before it proved that point, but the europhiles never listened.

Maybe our new government will be the first we've had for decades that'll actually use common sense, have practical approaches, and use logic/reason rather than blind illogical political dogma.

The important thing at the moment is that when the EU tries to centralise more power to itself, our leaders just turn round to Merkel etc and just say "yeah, right, you do that and cause yourself another disaster like the one you've just created if you want, but we're not playing your silly game; we're looking after our people instead."

We don't need a europe-wide central bank forcing every country's banks in the EU to adopt all the same rules as each other, we just need to be able to vote-out our own government if/when they don't regulate our own banks properly (which, Nick, you might have noticed is exactly what just happened a month ago).

This is where Labour were so misguided; thinking that there was absolutely no alternative but to have some weird international quango to force every bank in every country in the world to have all the same rules as each other. You don't need to do that. You just need to regulate your own banks properly. If you regulate your own banks properly then you can minimise contagion from other country's mistakes. If you don't regulate your own banks properly then you should expect your government to get kicked out. You shouldn't have to pay through the nose for some weird quango that polices every bank in every country. Same logic applies to public spending proportions; it's not the EU's business; that's what we have the vote for.

If you deny us the right to vote for the government that can set our own country's public spending proportions, then you put democracy in the bin.

We just kicked out our previous government because they didn't regulate the banks and because they bankrupted our economy. I want the right to be able to vote out such a government again. I also want the right to vote for a prospective uk government that has a public spending proportion in mind which makes sense.

4. At 1:33pm on 17 Jun 2010, jon112uk wrote:
I have little confidence in lord snooty - regardless of any rhetoric before the election. The election is over now and he doesn't need our votes any more.

We can see that he is still a poodle to the Americans - sorry BP and UK pensioners - no different from the last lot.

Why should we expect any more from him in europe?

You really do need to think through these comments, as doing so will make the difference

Cameron has played the BP situation well. By acting calmly, he has allowed Obama to go too far, which would clearly prejudice any criminal case, should the US be silly enough to try and bring one

Yesterday, Cameron made a firm, on-hysterical comment, in support of BP, and has again shown his strengths as a statesman

The same is true in Europe. There is little point in posturing, he needs to win when when it counts, and avoid petty bickering to appeal to a gallery which will never be satisfied

The key task he has, in my view, is to ensure that the Eu does not pick up the tab for the folly of the Eurozone

They must pay their dues, and when the Euro is restructured, we must again ensure that we do not pick up the tab

The Spanish situation is going to have to be resolved at some point, and as Robin said, the market are freezing the South Med countries out of the market to precipitate the resolution of the issue

Until this has happened, there will be no progress, and `Cameron needs to bide his time

Taking the view you have, based on what he has done so far, is just hanging a man before the trial has even started

40 Scorpio 33

Yes seems a little strange but UK still seems to have a very strong voice within the European Union, bearing in mind that to some we appear outsiders.

Perhaps not only within the European Union but alaso I hasten to add on the world stage but we remain an important player because of belive it or not our financial clout.

It works both ways. but in the first instance UK requires a strong Eurozone 1) Because it is our most important outlets when it comes to trade and 2) Because we are owed monies by the likes of Spain, Italy and Portugal and if these countries are unable to repay their debt it would effect us along with France and Germany.

Next to japan we are the second biggest holder of US debt.

April 2009 Gordon Brown annouced that the G20 Countries were to pump US1tn into the economy to end the recession - Yes they all cried GB has saved the world.

12 Months on GB and AD have left the stage and now DC/NC/GO have annouced that it's time to repay debt and reduce the Public Sector. Yes they all cry.

Bit like mother telling you if Jimmy next door put his head in the oven, would you follow suit?

Interesting to see what's really going on out there but my guess is that they haven't a clue what to do and don't be surprised by yet another U-turn if Growth declines and unemplyment rises.

Kev, of course will remind us about how much debt we have, how this is building on a daily basis and why it should be paid back immediately. Anyone trying to clear a credit card debt will know that it can only be done safely (i.e. without incurring more debt) over a period of time and that to do so, if helps if one is earning.

It is imperative to start paying off the debt but emphasis should be on growth.

Countries (Yes China being one of the bigger culprits) have debt but the question remains what should be level of debt we are comfortable with and remember we as a nation are receiving interest on the monies owed to us which has little or no mention by our Chancellor who appears more interested in scare mongering.

Kev, over to you! I'm going for rehab in the Shed.

22. At 2:05pm on 17 Jun 2010, forgottenukcitizen wrote:
7. Jon Cooper wrote:
have I miss-remembered or wern't we promised a referendum on Europe? (again).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you honestly think you would get one?
It’s one thing to make anti Euro rhetoric in opposition, but another to keep it up in Government.
Please don’t hold your breath waiting for this one; I just can't see it happening.

The pre-election referendum promise, was that there would be one prior to any further loss of powers....as no such thing is being proposed, there can clearly be no referendum.....

So don't hold your breath for too long, it could be fatal

8. At 1:00pm on 17 Jun 2010, craigmarlpool wrote:
It is quite obvious that your average back bench Tory would leave The EU tomorrow given the chance....this issue tore them apart before, it may well do the same again.

Don't rely on the Lib Dems to temper the coalition's policies in this area....quite honestly I forgot it was a coalition in power...I don't see much progressive centre influence in any of the Govt's actions so far.

Not true, Craig

The average Conservative back-bencher would like to be in the EU, yet would not seek to be in the Euro

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Thanks for the comments on my non-appearance!

In all seriousness, what I noticed yesterday, was that all posters, irrespective of their political views, were appalled at the anti-British comments that were allowed through by the moderator, many of which were offensive, and racist

In defending the British Army against those false attacks, I was incapable of getting anything of relevance passed by the moderators

Which lead me to think, that we all probably have more in common than we care to admit

Finally, I realised that all the time Gerry Adams was not taking up his seat in the HOC, he has been working as a BBC moderator

Thanks for the kind comment Scorpio

49. At 4:58pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
craig @ 41

"No doubt his IQ is higher than mine too."

No shame to fall short of a 158. Mmm, yes, I know - but I prefer to think it's true.

You are welcome to have my MENSA membership number?

#Mr naughty you see Kevin b couldn't resists a nice comment to re
enter the fold.
great the Tory's are coming back on parade.

54

I have never said anything about the debt

What I have commented on is that whilst there is a deficit, the debt is increasing at a rate faster than most realise

My comments have been entirely related to getting back into surplus as a matter of priority

There is no point in even thinking about the debt, until the deficit is under control, which requires spending to be brought back under control

As it happens, my view on debt, is that there is little we can do about repaying any of it for at least 10 years or more

We should be forward planning, by allowing for £1.7tn of debt in 2020, to allow for unseen emergency spending

We can then start to calculate the anticipated cost of servicing the £1.7tn, and start to build budgets around those numbers

We then need to jump back to 2015, to give ourselves spending targets for the end of this parliament

It is a simple task

The hard bit, is to get the most benefit for the money that is spent

Mr N says it is imperative to start paying off the debt, yet the emphasis should be on growth

I am unsure whether he has said debt when he means deficit, or whether he really just doesn't understand the difference

44. At 4:20pm on 17 Jun 2010, AndyC555 wrote:
I know it's hard for some of you Labour supporters to understand the current economic situation.....

So just imagine your elder brother has promised to buy you the best crayon in the world. The biggest brightest, colour changing, never running out crayon in the whole wide world costing a million pounds. You get all excited, of course you do, who wouldn't want such a crayon!

Then your mum comes along and explains that there isn't a million pounds in the household. Never was. The crayon itself is just a fantasy. You can't have it.

Of course you're disappointed. But as you get older, you realise that mum was right and that your elder brother was just peddling unsustainable dreams. You'll look back with a wry smile.

----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not going to fall for that. I remember the cookie scam!

Mr naughty Did you notice somebody try-ed to scatter gun some of sagas postings ?disgraceful goings on indeed its time the rascal was put on a fissure and up before the co to answer for his misbehavior.
The cad.

11. At 1:27pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
The idea – with an international currency – that you have some enforceable fiscal and budgetary rules (to complement the common monetary policy) applying to each member country seems perfectly reasonable. I actually see some merit in us, even though we’re not (as yet) in the Euro, voluntarily signing up to whatever is eventually agreed; we’ve lost Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling now, remember, and so could do with some outside help on such matters.

saga,

"... voluntary signing up to what is eventually agreed"?

Meaning you'd sign up for something about which you don't yet know the details? It's the finance fellow in you coming out.
You know - let's have some of those nicely wrapped bits of garbage because somebody says they must be worth a few bob.

Try buying an aircraft on that basis.
You'd be able to drive from Hampstead to Swindon without leaving the road!
At least it would cut down on your air navigation and airport charges.

something of interest and confirmation of what i already suspected to be true.
https://www.frogenyozurt.com/2010/03/scientific-study-conservatives-have-lower-iq/

its interesting to see some research that also, upon reflection....is obvious.

Mr naughty
Perhaps you would like two throw a little more light on the US to GB debt this has deluded me for quite some time is it the moneys after the war years or a debt before that time?
I under stood that it was a lone?

"You are welcome to have my MENSA membership number?"

No Kevin, that will not be necessary. If we don't have trust we have nothing.

Did you get my gist the other day, btw, about how this government has inherited a golden legacy from Labour? Was an excellent point, wasn't it?

Europe needs the UK, just as much as the UK needs Europe. Pragatism will sort most issues.

The British prime minister is not about to use his first or, indeed, second or third EU summit to say "Never mind the crisis, I want to talk about returning powers to Britain over social policy and fishing rights".

----------------
not yet. cameron is playing a very clever hand. at the moment he is appearing as a very centre ground conservative. once he has been power for some time, he will feel he has the trust and the strength to enact his parties more natural right wing policies. europe will not go away and he cannot smooth over the fact for ever that many in his party are very eurosceptic (to put it mildly). nothing wrong with concerns over european integration but conservative arrogance and xenophobic politics/policies regarding europe does our countries reputation and standing no good at all. And this xenophobia is bubbling away under conservative back benches.

67. At 6:56pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
"You are welcome to have my MENSA membership number?"

No Kevin, that will not be necessary. If we don't have trust we have nothing.

Did you get my gist the other day, btw, about how this government has inherited a golden legacy from Labour? Was an excellent point, wasn't it?

Now, you made the economic legacy comment in jest, your version of comedy, based on the reality of the golden legacy which truly was left to Labour in 1997

I would suggest that the coalition have been left an opportunity through the inability of the previous government to deal with various tough topics, to gain (in time) respect for the way, in which, they do tackle these issues

In the short term it makes a tough task even more difficult, yet there are big rewards for Cameron in holding his nerve

In the case of BP, Cameron has handled it far better than Obama...The Statement he gave HOC re BS, was top drawer and respected by all sides

The public sector pension issue is finally being confronted, after 40 years of various governments shamefully failing to act

So, there are big rewards on offer, and I rate Cameron to take them

Finally, if you haven't read Osborne's Mansion House speech, please do

It is impressive

65. At 6:47pm on 17 Jun 2010, lefty10 wrote:
something of interest and confirmation of what i already suspected to be true.
https://www.frogenyozurt.com/2010/03/scientific-study-conservatives-have-lower-iq/

its interesting to see some research that also, upon reflection....is obvious.

Congratulations

We all knew that you were really a Conservative, welcome aboard

69

Without being sarcastic, please can you tell me whether you think...

1) We should join the Euro? Why/why not

2)What evidence do you have that the Conservative Bank Benchers are xenophobic?

66 Scorpio

There are others but try this

hubpages.com/hub/The-American-National-Debt-Who-Do-America-Owe

BTW - Sorry we are behind, Japan and China.


Kevin @ 61.- Yes sorry my mistake never in my time of posting on here have you ever to my knowledge made mention to the UK debt being racked up on a daily basis or as a total figure or as to what it maybe in future years. I'll will of course take the punishment like a man but please give me a stick to bite on.

#58 Kevin
Any time.
I know exactly as to your frustration i suffer it on many occasions.

Can’t believe some of these spending cuts that are coming through. Absolutely brutal. Potentially damaging too. I have a few “outings” lined up for the rest of the summer and a very high proportion of them involve the use of the A14 – pretty much the only way to get to certain places that I was looking forward to getting to. A first visit to Stonehenge also on the agenda. Except maybe not – no hitchhiking up and down the A14 and no visit to the satanic stones because I now find out that the Coalition (in the form of Nick Clegg) is not prepared to invest in either. So, fine, I’ll spend the money I’d earmarked for those domestic jaunts – bed and breakfast bills, the new rucksack, the packed lunches, all the rest – on cheap foreign imports instead. Madness.

Kevin 70

But I don't remember the Tories leaving Labour any Banks to sell of in future years?

Get loads in Dividends whilst nationised or part nationalised and then sell off at a massive profit. Problem solved?

Yes I caught a bit of George at the Mansion House, Kevin - he looked nice, didn't he? Must have been a big thing for you - one of those "moments". I remember when I first saw one of my idols - Bryan Adams - live in concert for the first time. Couldn't breath. I do hope you had the foresight to tape it; people talk about You Tube but not everything gets on there.

71. kevin.
in all seriousness, there is loads of research to back this up. im not sure if i gave half a dozen links to other research that suggests the same thing...the mods would allow it. anyway kevin, its never too late to turn away from the dark side :-)

kevin @ 70

"you made the economic legacy comment in jest, your version of comedy, based on the reality of the golden legacy which truly was left to Labour in 1997"

No, serious point. I don't do comedy - leave that to clowns. Golden political legacy is the point. And that's the only legacy which counts, isn't it? Think about it. Like, a few years ago I was offered two big jobs at the same time – both of them involved running a substantial organisation; Org A was going from strength to strength (and had been for years), Org B was in crisis. I knew if I took over A, I was on a hiding to nothing – succeed and so what (?) - fail and I look like Mr Incompetent. Org B on the other hand, heads I win or tails I don’t lose – succeed and I'm a genius (a real MENSA type), fail and “well, he did his best with a bad hand.” Have you ever done your best with a bad hand, Kevin? Bet you have. So anyway, guess which job I did. No don’t, I’ll tell you – I did neither (something cropped up), but which should I have done if the "something" hadn't interfered? Which was the better legacy from the previous incumbent? Quite.

49. At 4:58pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
craig @ 41
"No doubt his IQ is higher than mine too."

No shame to fall short of a 158. Mmm, yes, I know - but I prefer to think it's true.

saga,
It may well be true - but does it have any relevance to anything?

I have a feeling you are way up there (although it all depends when you took the tests!).

Can you imagine a nation run and with operators delivered by a MENSA membership group.

It would take them weeks to empty the bins because there are good arguments for travelling only along a left-hand turning route when sometimes a right-hand turn could save time, cost and effort.

I couldn't give one whether my plumber or electrician has a MENSA sign on his van. But I'm very happy when he/she fixes a problem.

Just as I didn't care whether Brown was "considered" an intellectual, when he seemed to me to fail on the practicalities of stopping finance houses doing obviously stupid things.
Stuff like rediculous "loan-to-asset-value" or "loan-to-income" ratios that didn't make sense.
And allowing credit card companies to bump up borrowing options whenever anyone reached the top of their previous borrowing limits.

So, did a "Big IQ" - whatever that means - make UK companies or individuals think a bit? Or even make the finance houses take a more reasonable line before offering credit?

Makes me wonder whether big IQs should be allowed only into fairly lowly paid advisory roles.

Oh dear. There go the majority of Labour Leader candidates.

73

You have been very 'Frankie Howerd ' this week......Oh yes...no......oooh er

65. At 6:47pm on 17 Jun 2010, lefty10 wrote:

something of interest and confirmation of what i already suspected to be true.
https://www.frogenyozurt.com/2010/03/scientific-study-conservatives-have-lower-iq/

its interesting to see some research that also, upon reflection....is obvious.

...................................................................

Yes very interesting article and into the bargin I've ordered the Novel by Wilfred F. Voss for the wife's Christmas present - So thanks for that.

Kevin

If your interesyed I also saw George and like Saga was also impressed how well turned out he looked and how he managed to dress down for the occassion.

His after dinner speech was OK but won't get as many invites as William Hague. Now he is funny - You should hear some of his one liners especially on Europe. Side splitting, literally!

76. At 7:50pm on 17 Jun 2010, mrnaughty2 wrote:
Kevin 70

But I don't remember the Tories leaving Labour any Banks to sell of in future years?

Get loads in Dividends whilst nationised or part nationalised and then sell off at a massive profit. Problem solved?


If you truly believe that, then I hope you bought some?

78. At 8:01pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
Yes I caught a bit of George at the Mansion House, Kevin - he looked nice, didn't he? Must have been a big thing for you - one of those "moments". I remember when I first saw one of my idols - Bryan Adams - live in concert for the first time. Couldn't breath. I do hope you had the foresight to tape it; people talk about You Tube but not everything gets on there.

George Osborne isn't one of my idols, he is simply someone I think will prove to be an outstanding Chancellor. I have a transcript of the speech.

Seen Bryan Adams a few times, including when he did his better, earlier stuff

78, sagamix

I do hope you had the foresight to tape it

Tape? I Imagined you'd have an array of digital PVR's (not Sky+ though) to record all those daytime adverts that you and PD had analysed. Turns out your using your mum's Betamax!

80

You have gone down one of your windy roads.....If you are suggesting that the previous Government left things in a mess politically, I would agree

The fact Cameron had the vision, and political ability to grasp it, is also very interesting

This I find a non story and the degeneration of the posts to mudslinging in under 50 posts would appear to support this.

So one politician met another, other politicians have met other politicians all trying to make what they think are the right noises for home consumption and to whomsoever they are talking.Whats new ?

Nothing concrete and if its like when they talk at home you cant believe a word anyway.

I find the 2bn axe more of concern, fancy taking the free swims off pensioners. Be taking their bus passes off them next to stop them moving needlessly about as the Duke of Wellington would have said.

Come on Nick give us a meaty blog.Not an EU smoke and mirrors job.

BovineBuffoon

Why not Sky+? For political reasons? I know what you mean, but if you like sport, they've got you by the googlies.

Its good to have Kb back !

Re: Back bench tories being anti-europe...Bill Cash. I rest my case.

...............

Re: Mensa membership amongst our number. Jimmy Saville is a famous member of Mensa and also I believe a Tory....could they possibly be one and the same?

Kevinb @ 86.

Bryan Adams has never done any "better" stuff be it early or otherwise.

I am sure one day we will agree on something.

xtun @ 89

"I find the 2bn axe more of concern"

Yes - was messing about a bit in 75 but the list of things being cut didn't fit my idea of government waste; I was expecting something more along the lines of a cull of "diversity officers" and the like. Surprising and very worrying.

So, you people, as I have been following this site for some time, I think it is now time to stop giving Saga the oxygen he craves. Please, for some sanity. You will see, as with some others of you (you know who you are), that he lives his life waiting for responses - on here. Spending waking moments in expectation. This is not living; think about what you could be doing instead! Don't wait for the tingle of excitement that a response will provoke. Give it a rest, and get some real friends.

Reading some of this rubbish someone thinks its a good time to be a Tory;...well sorry to cause any offence (but I will anyway ) It is never a good time to be a Tory unless you are a self satisfied public school rich person who does not give a toss for the rest of society,,,and we have seen this today with the start of the cuts which will likely lead to another 50,000 on the jobless register mind you as a Tory that will not worry you because you are rich and the Tory government always supports the rich...now of course they are doing that with the help of the turncoat LD who will find themselves with no MPs after the next election

xtunbridge @89.

Agree.Alexander's announcements are more concerning.Although I believe these are monies that would have been spent over a number of years but which are now cancelled...so I assume the "savings" are not immediate as it were.

I think the people of sheffield will find it particularly difficult...Clegg's stomping ground I believe.

80. At 8:15pm on 17 Jun 2010, sagamix wrote:
kevin @ 70
"you made the economic legacy comment in jest, your version of comedy, based on the reality of the golden legacy which truly was left to Labour in 1997"

No, serious point. I don't do comedy - leave that to clowns. Golden political legacy is the point.... I was offered two big jobs at the same time – both of them involved running a substantial organisation; Org A was going from strength to strength (and had been for years), Org B was in crisis. I knew if I took over A, I was on a hiding to nothing – succeed and so what (?) - fail and I look like Mr Incompetent. Org B on the other hand, heads I win or tails I don’t lose – succeed and I'm a genius (a real MENSA type), fail and “well, he did his best with a bad hand.” Have you ever done your best with a bad hand, Kevin? Bet you have. So anyway, guess which job I did. No don’t, I’ll tell you – I did neither (something cropped up), but which should I have done if the "something" hadn't interfered? Which was the better legacy from the previous incumbent? Quite.

saga,

A legacy is something you are obliged to inherit (unless the law allows you to refuse it and/or push aside the bits you don't like).

A choice of options is quite different.

You were apparently offered a choice. Neither of which you selected.

I can't see a lot of pizzazz attached to making a really good company keep on being really good. Isn't that just "business as normal" and factored into the market expectation and assessment?
And I can't see a really good manager making a good fist of trying to turn a failing business around being wiped out because he/she couldn't quite stop stuff dropping down the tube - but making it a much, much slower process while he/she tried to flog it off.
However, you probably know better.
I know you a pretty - very - sharp person.

Just finding it hard to reconcile trips to Swindon with Rupert Bear trousers... Did the wearing and the visiting coincide?
I'd love to have been there.

Swindon had a great rail-engine manufacturing base, my old man told me. With lots of lovely countryside all around. The former simply died away. The latter remains.





The Yanks seem to think that people should be allowed to fail and try again. I don't really go with that - unless the guys who fail pay off all the debts they incurred. Otherwise, I agress that if people learn from failure they will probably deliver a much better outcome than people who never pushed at the boundaries.

stolly,

"I think it is now time to stop giving Saga the oxygen he craves."

But without oxygen I will die. Is that what you want?

(just kidding, your thoughts are clearly kind - please reassure yourself by picturing me multi tasking, doing lots of interesting and exciting things at the same time as all this baloney).

Anyway back to the blog topic, the tories cutting all these worthwhile projects. What a shower.

fairly,

"It may well be true - but does it have any relevance to anything?"

Very little. Pretty much with you on "commonsense" being a more valuable commodity than intellectual firepower. Much rarer too, commonsense - real commonsense, that is, not the dumbed down variety which everyone thinks they have and is thus, since they all still disagree about things, rather meaningless.

I think we have to trend very carefully here.The idea that the big society and the return of the Great Britishness simply doesn't through up anything other than obsticles in todays worldwide globe.

British Petrolium has made another massive mistake, as 50,000 barrels of oil leak into the gulf coast on a daily bases.Rather than tackle that issue, this coalition government wants too attack Obama over words.

It looks as if we wamt to segregate and isolate ourselves from the rest off the real world.

Well! I'm pretty sure FOM! will have his bacon and rye packed! as he might be thinking about an old trip along the gulf of mississip.