Doing it differently: Tips on how to get a job if you're disabled

22nd April 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 157

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA-               Hello, I’m Emma Tracey, and this is Access All, the BBC’s weekly disability and mental health podcast. You can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, or get in touch with me by email, accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or we’re on socials, X and Instagram, @BBCAccessAll.

MUSIC-              Theme music.

EMMA-               The government is redefining who gets benefits, and has very clearly said that more disabled and long-term sick people need to get back to work. We’re told that work is good for our mental health and that it helps to boost the economy and to reduce the rising benefits bill. But there is growing dissent among backbenchers about the government plans. Not every disabled person can work, and it’s really important that we make that very, very clear. But for the disabled people who want to work and can work this programme is for you. We have brought two lovely guests into the studio to talk about this, both of whom have lots and lots of experience in this area. We have Liz Jackson, MBE, and Phil Friend, OBE. Hello both.

LIZ-                    Hi.

PHIL-                  Hiya, how are you doing?

EMMA-               Very good. Lots of letters after those names [laughter]. Liz, you launched a startup the same year that you went blind, and created a million pound telemarketing business. You went on to win lots of awards, and now you coach other businesses and people. And it says in my notes that you launched your startup with £5,000 in loans and grants. That’s absolutely incredible.

LIZ-                    [Laughs] well, it’s a long time ago now, I was 25, and I was fortunate enough that the Prince’s Trust loaned me £4,000 and gave me a grant of £1,000. But that was enough to get the business started. And I ran that business for 17 years, it employed 100 people, and then I franchised it 18 times around the country. It was a brilliant way to learn the ropes. And now I’m co-owner of a corporate finance company called Initium, and have the honour of coaching others on how to scale up and exit their businesses.

EMMA-               That was quite a year, wasn’t it, launching your startup and losing your sight. How did all that come about at the same time?

LIZ-                    So, I’ve got RP, retinitis pigmentosa. I was diagnosed with that when I was 18 months old. I was told I was going to go blind every six months when we did the biannual trip to Moorfields, which were quite depressing considering there’s no treatment for it. So, at 14 when I was going through my rebellious teenage years I just said to my parents I’m not going anymore. So, I kind of believed that the story of you’re going to go blind was a bit of a lie and I wasn’t going to go blind. So, when I did go blind the year I started my company it was actually a bit of a surprise, [laughs]. The ophthalmologists knew what they were talking about in the end.

EMMA-               Right. So, it just happened to coincide. What were you doing before you started your business?

LIZ-                    I did quite badly at school and pretty much hated it, and so I left school with one GCSE in drama. And so I got a YTS placement, which is like an apprenticeship, and I started work at 17. I was really, really blessed, I got to work for an incredible entrepreneur who spent the first year really trying to find out what I was good at, and found out I was really good at sales. And so I started an apprenticeship in selling, and I worked in that business climbing the ladder, if you like, for eight years.

EMMA-               So, that gave you loads of experience to go on and start a business doing similar. Did going blind hinder you in any way do you think?

LIZ-                    I think it was a benefit actually as an entrepreneur, because a lot of entrepreneurs have what I would call a poverty mindset, so they start their businesses and they think I’ll do everything myself to save money. And I couldn’t do everything myself, and so what I ended up doing was getting an accountant, getting a PA, outsourcing all the things that I wasn’t very good at and couldn’t do anymore because I was blind, and then I focused on winning clients, delivering work, recruiting great people. And I think that’s what led to the company really scaling at pace.

EMMA-               You were focusing on your strengths.

LIZ-                    Yeah, focusing on the stuff I was cracking at, yeah.

EMMA-               Phil Friend, this is something you definitely have talked about over the years. You’re a former consultant and trainer; you’re a wheelchair user yourself; you spent 35 years working with the public and private sector organisations improving access, inclusion and equality for disabled people. You wrote a book even. You’ve written a book called?

PHIL-                  Why Are You Pretending to be Normal. I mean, I’m at the other end of the scale of course from Liz because Liz is there banging the drum now, and I’m only half banging it; I’ve been banging it for years [laughs].

EMMA-               Tapping it.

PHIL-                  But yeah, I think the things that I most enjoyed about my career really was that staying very close to disabled people through either campaigning work, looking at the rights of disabled people, but also through their own personal development. Because I’ve always believed, and it sounds like Liz believes it too, that we are assets and we should be really shouting that from the rooftops, not apologising for our disabilities or our impairments but actually making sure that people understand that this is an asset. Talk about getting jobs and so on, you’ve got to be in their face. Stop apologising for what’s going on here and you start using it as a selling point.

EMMA-               Okay, get in their faces and focus on what you’re good at. That’s two tips that we’ve already managed to wring out of our really very clever guests on employment. Now, it’s really, really important to say that many disabled people can’t work, are not able to work, are not able to look for work. That’s something that we absolutely don’t want to lose sight of. Some disabled people, many, want to work, and feel that they’re not getting given the opportunities, that they’re not getting the experience, it’s difficult for them to look for work and it’s difficult for them to find jobs. Let’s start with talking about why it’s so difficult for so many disabled people to find jobs. We disabled people are 50% less likely to have a job. The government calls it a 29% employment gap. What does all that mean, Phil, and why does that gap exist?

PHIL-                  Well, it’s complex of course, because if it wasn’t we’d have probably fixed it. The fact is that it starts with us, the disabled people themselves, believing that they can work or believing that they can contribute. And I totally accept that not everybody can work. But I think what those of us who can’t work need to be thinking about is what meaningful things can I do; if I can’t work what meaningful things can I do that might contribute in other ways.

                           But going back to the job thing, I think it starts with the belief that you can work, that people will give you a job if you go for it. I think there’s that. There’s also the issues of the attitudes of the employers. Massive issue here. And it’s interesting that you’re talking to two people who have both set up their own businesses. One of the ways that you can avoid employers is to set up your own business.

EMMA-               [Laughs] just avoid them all together.

PHIL-                  Yeah, exactly. But not everybody can do that, and obviously you need some skills that lend themselves to being an entrepreneur. But I think the main thing is the attitude of the employer who generally sees disability as a problem, so when you put on a form disability stuff they go, oh god, we’ve got no parking, or no, there’s no toilet, or they’ll be slower or they’ll be unreliable, or whatever it is.

EMMA-               So, sort of pretend barriers?

PHIL-                  Yeah, I think they’re imaginary. Because obviously what employers want is they want assets, they don’t want problems. They see disabled people as a problem. So, what we have to do is ensure that they don’t get that message; that actually what we’re bringing is a lot of talent and a lot of ability, and we are problem solvers so if there are some we will find a way round that.

LIZ-                    I think it’s just recognising what a massive gift work is. Work for me has been one of the best parts of my life after being a mum [laughs]. I love the world of work. Work is where a lot of people, and particularly me, I get a lot of my value from it. Being blind I feel like I learn about the world through the world of work so much. And it’s like a playground for me, it’s like my Disneyland. I love building stuff, and the opportunity through work that there is to build a social network, to get value, to learn, to contribute is just so massive that I feel really passionate about creating space, no matter what minority you’re in, whether it’s the disability or you’re a woman who’s really struggling to get into a particular career path. I just feel really passionate that the world of work is the coolest place to be and a great way to spend life, so I hate the idea that people miss out.

EMMA-               It’s interesting that you say that because I think from the disabled people I’ve spoken to over the years it’s not always the coolest place to be; it can be a really difficult place for disabled people with barriers they come up against and trouble they have being allowed to fit in, to do their jobs. It’s interesting that you both talked about sticking to what you’re good at.

                           Phil, do you think that disabled people need to think quite differently than non-disabled people when applying for jobs?

PHIL-                  Yes. So, here’s a top tip for you: in my humble opinion do not mention your disability in the application stage.

EMMA-               Why?

PHIL-                  Because the minute you do they switch on their ‘oh god, this is a problem’ hat.

EMMA-               But a lot of companies tell us to do that. Why do they do that? Why do they say that we should?

PHIL-                  Well, actually the law does not require them to know about your disability at this point. You haven’t got a job yet. So, the application stage you can keep quiet about your impairment disability. You do not have to declare it. Now, here’s a difference: if you see it as an asset to your application at that point, so when I was running my business I employed up to 35 people most of whom, just about all of them were disabled people. You’d be a bit of a mug if you didn’t mention your disability when you were applying to my company because you could clearly see we were all about disability. So, do your research, think very carefully about what this company’s about, go online, look at them. If they’ve got a record of employing disabled people then maybe you would mention it. But just bear with me, so you don’t mention it at this point. Once you get selected for interview now that’s a different thing because you might need adjustments now. If you need sign language support then you’re going to need that at the interview. So, it’s at the interview stage that I would advise people to mention their impairments because they’re going to need maybe some support. And then if the employer then says oh, I’m terribly sorry but we have to withdraw the offer, you’ve got some litigation opportunity now [laughs] because clearly they’re discriminating. So, that’s why, I’m not saying conceal stuff, I’m saying at the point that you’re applying it might not be relevant to the application itself.

EMMA-               And what if you probably won’t need reasonable adjustments for the interview, you’re neurodivergent maybe, there’s some mental health stuff going on that might not affect your interview but could affect after, when you start the job yourself you might need some adjustments, when do you disclose that?

PHIL-                  I think you will use your judgement. Be an expert on you, right, be an expert on you. You know your neurodiverse situation, you know when it kicks in, you know when it’s stressful, you know what the triggers might be. If you know that interviews, and maybe you’re not very experienced at interviews and you get very stressed by them – most people do, it’s quite natural to be very stressed during interviews – you weigh up the odds then and you might then say, okay I will need support because of this. People with non-visible disabilities have a slightly different issue. If I turn up the minute I go through the door everybody can see I’m disabled, I’m in a wheelchair. But someone who’s neurodiverse does not appear to be any different from anybody else. So, you are the expert on you, make sure that you’ve thought this through; that’s all I’m saying really.

EMMA-               Liz, you’ve seen a lot of CVs I would imagine in your time, you’ve gone through a lot of recruitment processes. What’s your thoughts on whether you should mention the disability and at what stage?

LIZ-                    Oh, I don’t know because I sit both sides of the fence I guess. I mean, Phil mentioned earlier about making it part of your brand or making it part of your strengths. I think if somebody has taken the time to really tailor why they think they’re really good for the business and the role, and they’ve focused on their strengths, I think I would probably rather know that upfront. One of the things I’ve made a big deal of is making sure on my LinkedIn profile, I have a bit of a digital footprint, that I really talk about the benefits of being blind. And I do say to people, I feel sorry for you sighted people because you’re so distracted by the world of being visual, you’re so distracted compared to me. I can be so focused.

EMMA-               Oh my god, what’s wrong with me then, Liz? I’m always distracted and I’m totally blind as well.

LIZ-                    [Laughs]

EMMA-               We’re all different, aren’t we?

LIZ-                    We are all different, yeah.

MUSIC-              We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the BBC News website.

EMMA-               You’re listening to Access All. I’m Emma Tracey and this time we are talking about jobs and disabled people, I'm joined by former disability consultant Phil Friend and entrepreneur Liz Jackson.

EMMA-               I always think LinkedIn is a bit like online dating, isn’t it, and we talk about that a lot in this podcast too about whether you say you’re disabled when you’re doing your online dating profile and then when you're talking to people on it. It really is a shop window, isn’t it? But isn’t another thing about LinkedIn that you can maybe craft a job for yourself? You said stick to your strengths, and a lot of people are talking about job crafting now and working towards creating a job that suits you.

LIZ-                    I think that’s really true. And I think especially as most jobs now are hybrid, if they’re not entirely working from home, and so I think some of the limitations that perhaps existed before probably don’t exist so much. Certainly for us we work three days at home. We’ve got some people who work in different countries. One of my PAs is a digital nomad and works from a campervan as she travels Europe. The world is so much more our oyster in terms of the art of the possible. And I do think the first thing a decent recruiter will do is if you’re looking to fill a position the first thing you do is check out their social digital footprint. If they’re disabled you’re going to know in five seconds. For me I would prefer people upfront, honest, and able to talk about it in a really non-prickly way. As an employer I want to be able to ask practical questions and I don’t want to offend somebody. So, I think I’m always really out there when I meet people for the first time, just look, I’m blind, so if I don’t look you in the eye it’s not because I had too many beers at lunch. I’m just really honest about it right upfront.

EMMA-               I mean, non-prickly, sometimes it’s quite hard to be non-prickly when people are putting all these barriers up on your way, isn’t it. Phil, tell me some examples of ways that disabled people have impressed you when looking for a job.

PHIL-                  I think in then main the first thing that always impresses me, and Liz has mentioned it as well, is prep. Don’t come into a situation where you don’t know enough about them. This is a two-way street this application process.

EMMA-               So, disabled people prepping really well for jobs?

PHIL-                  Absolutely. I think what’s changed in my lifetime in employment is that younger people now, apart from all the social media, LinkedIns and all that stuff, what’s also changed is the values that younger employees want. It’s not all about money, that’s clearly an important issue; it’s about the values, it’s about are you green, do you care about the planet, what about my own personal development, all those things matter to employees. And I think many employers now recognise that they’ve got to be much more holistic about the way they look after and deal with their staff colleagues. So, prep: you’ve got the internet, you’ve got all sorts of ways of finding out what this organisation is about. And then prep for you: what are the strengths that I have that would fit into this organisation, given what I know about them. Preparation is everything, and we’re not prepping yet fully; we’re only prepping for the application process, however that works, be it on LinkedIn, be it a standard old form, whether it’s phone interviewing, whatever it is, prepping for the interview or the selection questions, that kind of thing. I don’t think, Emma, you can ever be over prepared to be honest.

EMMA-               Really?

PHIL-                  No, I don’t.

LIZ-                    I would say it’s easier than ever to do it as well. I think a massive advantage that we’ve all got now is AI, is ChatGPT and other forms of AI that have made it easier than ever for us to learn about businesses, learn about their competitors, learn about the economic environment they trade in, learn about the job, learn about equivalent jobs, learn about what skills should I have if I’m going to apply for this job. I think actually getting a march on that while the rest of the workforce kind of adjusts to using AI, I think if you’ve got a bit of time invest in getting those skillsets because workplace is crying out for it. And it can certainly fill our weaknesses, we can be really good in lots of areas we weren’t before just by learning how to use AI really efficiently.

EMMA-               That’s so interesting. I want to get you back to talk a bit more about AI in the future. Is that something you use a lot, Liz?

LIZ-                    All day, every day. Even to check my make-up now if my husband, who isn’t very attentive, isn’t about.

EMMA-               Ooh, which app?

LIZ-                    ChatGPT, turn the camera on and you ask it to check your make-up [laughs].

EMMA-               Ooh.

PHIL-                  Liz is right, AI, I use it every day too and I’m at the other end of the scale in a sense.

EMMA-               How do you use it?

PHIL-                  I use it to prep. I use it when I’m being asked to do things. I used it for this.

EMMA-               Did you?

PHIL-                  Yes, I did, yeah. I asked my favourite AI person, I’m being interviewed on a podcast by Emma, who’s exemplary, brilliant at her job, and they want to talk about employment of disabled people, what three things should I focus on.

EMMA-               Oh my god! So, this is not your tips at all?

PHIL-                  Oh, these are nothing to do with me, this is all AI. No, because what you…

EMMA-               Are you even real?

PHIL-                  [Laughs] fake Phil Friend. The trick – and this is where it really matters, and here’s prep again – you need to be a subject matter expert. Well, you are on yourself, aren’t you, you are a subject matter expert on yourself. So, when you ask AI questions you need to apply rigour in making sure that it’s not giving you duff information.

EMMA-               Well, this is it, it can tell you all sorts of random stuff that’s not true. Phil Friend, what would your main advice be to a disabled person setting up their own business? They’ve had enough of trying to get in with employers, they’ve had enough of trying to get a job or this is just what they’ve chosen in the first place, what’s your advice for setting up your own business?

PHIL-                  I think the single most important message I would say is again preparation of course, make sure that you understand what you’re going in for, find out things like national insurance and bits and bobs like that. And if you have got money, like Liz managed to bring money together to bring someone in, like an accountant and so forth, that’s a great idea. But if you can’t do that what you need to understand is what is it you’re selling and what market wants it. Be clear about what your product is. And I don’t mean by that what your widget thing is that you’re making, I mean like Liz’s case, she is offering a lot of skills because she has the abilities in those areas, and that’s what she’s selling. So, be very clear about what you’re selling and then be very clear what the market is that you’re looking into. And that’s where AI can be brilliant because it can really help you focus. So, stay focused and don’t assume that people want what you’re selling. You must find out what they need and then see if you’re able to offer it, that’s the trick.

EMMA-               Oh, good advice there, Phil Friend, I think. What about you, Liz, you’ve done it?

LIZ-                    Look, I think my advice, whether you’re starting a company or looking to get a job is you’ve got to be really resilient. I think resilience, every five minutes there’s a new podcast or a new life coach coming out talking about resilience, it’s one of the things in today’s society that actually we’re low on, especially in the western world. And we’ve got to be really resilient. And I would say that as a blind person I’ve probably had to be more resilient than somebody who isn’t blind or disabled.

EMMA-               And how do you build that up then?

LIZ-                    Well, I’ll tell you what’s great about living life is the more knocks you have the better you are at dealing with them in the future. And so the more you learn to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and crack on actually the more resilient you get. It’s like a muscle. And I’ve done loads of stupid things at work, some because I’m blind, some just because I’m me [laughter], but I think resilience is something you need in spades. And actually starting a business, I know that social media or the world of celebrity would like to tell us that everyone can become a millionaire overnight and that starting and scaling companies is easy; it’s really, really hard, especially in things like selling. So, winning clients, for example, you’re always going to have, even if you’re the best sales person in the world, two-thirds of what you do is going to be failing.

EMMA-               Oh gosh.

LIZ-                    And a third of the time you’re going to succeed. So, life is tough, it’s tough. But if you want to live a great adventurous life with some success in it you’ve got to learn to weather the storms.

EMMA-               Okay Liz. Liz Jackson, you’ve been fabulous, and so have you, Phil Friend. We’re going to sum up there really quickly. I did ask you to bring some top tips. In a nutshell, Phil, what are your top tips for getting a job when you’re disabled?

PHIL-                  Well, I would say firstly weigh up whether you should reveal your disability at the first stage of the process. Second would be, and I haven’t mentioned this, get yourself a personal cheer squad.

EMMA-               What’s that?

PHIL-                  Well, it’s find two or three people who believe in you, and they tell it to you straight, your friends, and remind you that it’s not you that’s the issue, it might be the system.

EMMA-               Okay. And next one?

PHIL-                  Next one is don’t wait to be invited, ask awkward questions. Instead of guessing what the role’s about and whether it’s open to adjustments and so on and so forth, ask, go online, research, do that. And the final one would be careers aren’t always neat, and that’s okay. So, don’t forget that you’ve done volunteering or portfolio work or freelancing or various other, or you’ve been a mum and you’ve run a household for ten years. There are transferable skills, you know.

EMMA-               Hardest thing I’ve ever done, Phil, hardest thing I’ve ever done [laughs].

PHIL-                  And I salute you because it’s true.

LIZ-                    Yeah.

EMMA-               Thank you. Liz, very quickly, what in summary are your top tips?

LIZ-                    So, I think my first one would be get good at self-assessment, work out what your personal strengths are and your weaknesses. And use tools like psychometric testing, whatever, they’re all free these tools online a lot of them. So, I’d learn about yourself and learn about what your strengths are. Then I guess number two would be think about how you can apply your special unique skills and do some research around what kinds of occupations they’d be best applied to, and then I’d narrow it further to what kinds of businesses. And I wouldn’t wait for those businesses to actually be recruiting. I think entrepreneurs are pretty opportunistic individuals, and I think if they see somebody who can fix a gap I think they’ll take advantage of that.

EMMA-               Grab them on social media, have a conversation?

LIZ-                    Definitely. And then my last one would be make sure you’ve got a digital footprint on LinkedIn, or they’ll look on Facebook, they’ll look on your Instagram. Make sure you're proud of it. Don’t be embarrassing on your social media footprint [laughs].

EMMA-               Okay. Liz Jackson and Phil Friend, thank you so much for joining me on Access All to talk about finding a job as a disabled person. You’ve both been absolutely ace. Thank you.

LIZ-                    Thanks, Emma.

PHIL-                  Thanks very much, Emma.

EMMA-               What a great and hopefully useful chat that was. Now, if you’re in the space for doing some job hunting I want to know what’s worked for you. What are your top tips for finding a job as a disabled person? And which of our guests’ tips will you be taking forward? Get in touch, we’re on email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and we’re on X and Instagram @BBCAccessAll. You can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds as well and we will come down onto your device every single week. Catch you next time. Bye.

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