45. Bold Conversations

Lucy Worsley returns with another episode of Lady Swindlers, where true crime meets history - with a twist. Joined by historian Ros Crone and comedian, activist and author Deborah Frances-White, Lucy revisits the stories of women who defied societal norms through audacious crimes.

They also discuss what their own swindler names would be.

This episode focuses on Celia Cooney, the Bobbed Haired Bandit of 1920s New York; Mary Bateman, the Yorkshire Witch, whose supernatural scams turned deadly; Catharine Murphy, the Money Maker, a counterfeiter working from her kitchen table; and Annie Gordon Baillie, a serial swindler with more than 40 false names.

Through their stories, Lucy, Rosalind and Deborah explore themes of inequality, gendered justice, and the fine line between boldness and desperation while reflecting on how societal constraints push these women to extremes.

Historian Ros Crone provides historical context on the harsh realities they face, from public dissections to burning at the stake.

The conversation also explores modern issues like the erosion of empathy in polarised debates and the lingering gaps in women’s healthcare.

In this episode Lucy asks what drives women to break the rules - and what can their stories teach us about our life today?

Producer: Riham Moussa
Readers: Clare Corbett, Laurel Lefkow, Jonathan Keeble, Alex Phelps
Singer: Olivia Bloore
Historical Consultant: Rosalind Crone
Executive Producer: Kirsty Hunter

A StoryHunter production for BBC Radio 4.

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