Blood, guts and old-fashioned Six Nations thunder

A great game, with fantastic physical confrontations all over the pitch. Could have gone either way, and with better goal kicking from England would have ended as an absolute thriller. Can't imagine that Johnny Wilkinson (as of 2000-2003 era) would have missed either the conversion or late penalty - five points given away that would have given the last 10 minutes a different complexion.

The difference was really that this Welsh team understood how to win this game, by withstanding England's pressure late on.

Worsley deservingly man of the match - not a conventional #7 performance but immense in the tackle, taking everything Roberts and Powell threw at him. Pity for him it was in vain.

Flutey is starting to look a really good inside centre - now we just need players to understand how to provide supprt for him.

Gethin Jenkins must have booked himself a Lions shirt. So much ground covered for a big lump, so many tackles made and yet still held his own in the set piece.

Good article Tom and a fair appraisal of the game. Couldn't fault the commitment from England but Wales just had that little bit extra. Gethin Jenkins was my man of the match by a mile. Scrum was rock solid and yet he was like a fourth back row forward smashing the English in the tackle time and time again, clearing rucks and taking the ball up. In short he was phenomenonal.

What pleased me as a Welshman was how well the front 5 played. Lineout faultless, kick-offs handled well and overall solid platform.

For England thought Worsley had a great game tackling and a number of backs showed some nice touches.

Very enjoyable game. England much improved, good to see Wales can win even when plan A is countered so effectively by Worsely et al.

Only dissapointment was to hear Jonno interviewed after the game imply that the referee was to blame for England's high penalty count and 2 yellow cards. I thought Kaplan had a very good and fair game, and the better team won.

As a Welshmen i wasn't surprised at all by the nature of the game...England are always going to be a physical presence due to the nature of the Guinness premiership.

Im also glad that with a tough trip to Paris ahaead we had a very good examination which will stand Wales in god stead for France as there shouldnt be any complacency (excuse spelling).

My only worry is that for a side who is on top of their game and who have aspirations of winning the world cup could not put more points on a team who going into the match were low on confidence and were down to 14 for 20 minutes of the match.....In Englands accesdancy 2000-2003 they would have smashed us by 50 points....allbeit back then wales were still being dragged into the professional era in terms of fitness and physical preparation.

The other thing that bothered me is the pundits emphasising Englands lack of discipline as a major factor, i agree it cost them hwowever if they had not killed as much ball as they did wales probably would have had another 2 tries and it would have been game over.

From a Wales perspective i would give Peel a start next game as i thought Phillips looked sluggish getting the ball away from the breakdown.

To echo the earlier posts i think Jenkins was immense as was Wyn Jones.

I thought Worsely was awsome as well and if he continues to play as well throughout the tournament could put him in the lions frame as well as Sackey who clearly i felt was the best winger on the park today.

Putting my lions cap on for a minute just watched highlights of the super 14 opening weekend and all the SA sides ook sharp...however there southern hemsphere presenter took a swipe at our nothern hemisphere game stating that there were '44 tries scored in the opening weekend of the super 14' blah blah blah...i cant wait till us Brits get down there and stick it up the Boks

C'mon the LIONS

excuse me how non pc of me Brits and Irish get down there

C'mon the lions!

As a Welsh fan - I'm ashamed to say the referee handed it to us on a plate.
Goode's and Tindall's sin binning were absolutely appalling decisions - that spoiled the game.
We got away with persistent offside and were lucky not to be punished.

Without Shane Williams - we looked impotent - with very few attacking options that could actually penetrate a decent defence.

I fear for us, facing either Ireland or France. We will simply be torn to pieces.

i wouldnt go that far england gave away three penalties in the first 5 minutes and then they were warned....if they had infringed 3 times in the first 20 minutes they would still have been warned ergo tindall had to go. everyone on 606 s slagging the ref but he played to the letter of the law.....they are saying he didnt do the same to wales....thats because wales first infringed with hands in until about 60 mins in....hence why england scored through delon armitage (they had space because wales didnt slow the ball down!) at the end of the day after that try england didnt realy look like scoring again and it was good that we saw the game out in the rite areas of the pitch.....but the end of the day u cnt blame the ref for losing a game!

i cant say we were offside that much maybe a couple of times but thats the line u play on...i think england were slowing the ball down illlegally more than they got pinged for but its rugby and u play on the limit of the rules sometimes beyond if u can get away with it.

we didnt look impotent. Worsley did a fantastic job at stopping Roberts yet we still froced three penalties in the first 10-15 thats from attacking play?!?! it was weird it reminded me today of how england played in the early 2000's big defence play in right areas kick the goals.....oh and for anyone citing the fact that england missed 4 kicks at goal wales missed 2 as well so you cant realy use that as an excuse either.....still an entertaining game!

First off that was an awesome game and all credit to Wales on the victory.

England's regular infringements cost them a potential win and Jonathan Kaplan's calls in that department were right. However, I can see where Martin Johnson is coming from. Whilst England were guilty of repeated offenses, it does seem that because they have built a reputation for this, that there is a tendency for them to be the only team scrutinised at the breakdown. Bottom line though is that England need to cut these violations down.

great game, just went to show the arrogant welshman are far overrated and the fact that they nearly lost to a rubbish england side proves it. gatland was almost silenced after he spent the whole week saying how awful england are, maybe he should keep his cocky mouth shut before they play a good ireland/french team.
that is all.

Ah but chocl8rain the point is that the Welsh didn't lose. They still managed to beat the English when their normal style of play had been cut off. That's the sign of a very good side. In any sport, the best sides win when being forced to play an unfamiliar game.

Ok lets take a deep breath here. First of all, Wales are becoming a very good side. As a few posters have pointed out England disrupted Wales usual attacking game-plan (and credit England, the coaches and the players for that) yet Wales still found a way to win the match and it was never in too much doubt, so credit where credit is due. However, those saying the Gatland didnt play a part are mistaken. England seem to get excessively punished through yellow cards for infringement at the breakdown and Byrne's tackle in the air on Armitage would have been a yellow if committed by a player in white. The better side won but MJ has a point when he says that refs are quicker to produce cards against England than other teams.

All in all as an England fan it was miles better than last week against Italy and a number of players put down markers for their shirts. Armitage was England MOM and Worsely was excellent. Enlgand looked far more threatening with Flood and Tait on the pitch and I'd like to see them start next week. England arent going to win the 6 nations this year so its about begining to build a team that can be succesful in the future.

Anyhoo, that's my thoughts. Good luck Wales for the GS. You're the best side in the Northern hemisphere at the mo and if you continue to play an exciting brand of rugby you deserve to win this year. Hopefully England can learn and build on this performance next week.

ps, good article Tom.

First of all, congratulations to the Welsh a sign of a good team is winning even when your opposition wins the tactical battle. Well done England for really showing character this week and producing a very good tactical show. Yes England were huge underdogs but you cannot expect large margins of victory all the time. Test rugby has rarely produced these types of margins amongst the top teams and the Welsh gritty victory was overall deserved. Winning ugly! It worked well for England.

England can move on now, discipline and execution needs to be sorted but they will have a better idea of who can and cannot make it at this level. They have shown that they have the players to impose their own strategy and negate the opposition tactics. I remain unconvinced that they have the skills to pose a true threat with ball in hand. Good use of replacements by MJ.

Wales, i cannot help think that despite being a good team, the general lack of quality in the 6N recently has exagerated Wales' ability. There has ben no 6N team in the top 3 IRB rankings for a while whereas not too long ago there were two. Nevertheless Wales is an exciting team in progress.

"great game, just went to show the arrogant welshman are far overrated "

That's rich coming from an Englishman. Remind me again, who was it who were talking about leaving the Six Nations and joining the Tri-Nations a few years ago? Apparently the rest of us were never going to be good enough to give them a decent game . It wasn't England by any chance, was it?

I have to agree that Kaplan had an awful game. Only too happy to flash the yellow in English faces without giving Welsh infringements a second glance. Steve Jones' cynical and vindictive fall ontop of Sakey after his try, and whoever it was (can't recall now) who took out Goode a clear 2 seconds after the kick-through leading up to the try... both were worthy of yellow, but not so much as a twitch from the ref.

Just before Tindal's yellow, I thought the ref was actually reaching into his pocket for the welsh player tackling a man off the ball 3 yards offside... and it might have been caught if the ref wasn't intent on penalising England's very next infringement at the breakdown which, inevitably, was only seconds away.

Johno's right, England as a unit have to get their act together and play whiter than white for a couple of years now, just to level the perceptions of officials.

Kaplan had an absolute stinker. As a ref I watch his behaviour more than most and would point out the following.
1. Warning a side after 5 mins you are going to yellow someone ater the next penalty is putting you in a corner. No early penalty was in the red zone, and he should talk at the team not to them at this stage.
2. If you are going to take this stance, it must be consistant. Wales comitted 9 penalties to 13 throughout the game (if I counted correctly), yet did not receive a card.
3. Scrum management was appaling. Wales consistantly dropped the scrum on their tight side on their ball to prevent a push, and on England ball he walked round the scrum with Martyn Williams on more than one occasion, whilst the ball was still in. No binding call
4. Positioning. On a number of occasions he put himself in the defensive line at an England ruck, and let the Welsh defence walk up offside, to the extent he had to walk forward to see the ball!
5.Forward passes, quite a few. Halfpennys try started with one (before Goode was binned), and finished with a huge one. Kapland thought it was forward and looked to his TJ. Why not take a replay. Look at the reaction of Kapland and players in the backfield on the TV feed.
6.Alan Wynn Jones. Does this man know where the offside line is? Every ruck he comes in through the side and fringes round offside. He consistently stands offside at breakdowns, and Kapland never pinged him. If he had Wales penalty count would have been higher than Englands.

I have waited till this morning to vent my spleen, but in the cold light of day, I still feel Kapland is guilty of prejudging a game, and doing his best to justify this.

I see the English are just as gracious in defeat as they used to be in victory. What will the excuse be when you get thrashed in Dublin? The referee again, or will you think of something new?

I agree Ron666. If England had been thrashed they wouldn't be complaining so much.
I think Lee Byrne was lucky after the air tackle. Great boot, though and still Lions 15 despite Armitage's good game.
Why substitute Sackey? Shane was definitely missed in attack but mark Jones defended well. He was just skinned by a quicker Sackey. Great game whatever the result. Good result, though.

usual Welsh response of 'excuses, excuses' which can be ignored as the lazy response it is. Anyone can see the ref had pre-ordained blinkers on and head turned by the media and home crowd into stamping on England. He warned England about yellow cards for persistent fouling far too early. If the ref had a stinker it will be said, because its not an excuse but totally relevant to the discussion of the match because eveytime England threatened serious momentum, and England's challenge was pretty serious in this game, the ref would knock them back. I am more than capable of saying England played a stinker, and have on a number of occasions and unfortunately often recently, but this is an occasion to say England played well against a good Welsh team (who themselves didnt have their best day) and the ref was a joke.

Ron666,

I no point am I saying we should have won, purely that Kapland had a stinker, and was in all proability biased against England.

A number of Welsh posters have also concurred with this view, on this and other blogs.

However, a major concern must be for England, that if IRB officials are prejudging the opposition, England will have to adopt a no penalty game, which is impossible.

I hope that you can appreciate my critique on Kapland for what it is.

A much improved England with Worsley leading in defence and Armitage showing a glimpse of where England should be aiming to go in the future with strong defense and attack with pace.

Listening to the press before the match you would have thought England had been beaten by Italy last week. What a load of nonesense. England and Wales have a history of tight matches even when one side is stronger, which indeed Wales are, and this was never going to be anything other than a nerve tingling game.

The match stats show the true picture. A dominant Wales with an excellent defensive display by England. With the limited ball they did get England showed they can be dangerous and for the first time in a long time produced some positive attacking rugby led by the newcomer Armitage who is an exciting prospect for the future. He reminded me of Lee Byrne in his approach.

Several comments here have alluded to the referee and the yellow cards. England do lack discipline and the yellow cards were not for one off incidents but for repeatedly killing the ball and trying to slow Wales distribution down. Without employing this tactic Wales would have won by much more and Worsley must take much of the credit for this. I thought his MoM award was well deserved.

As for Wales, talk of a Grand Slam is very premature. France in Paris is never a given even if you wear All Black. The Irish also seem to be back.... what a great 6 nations!

Tom,Tom,Tom, narrow victory? Sorry mate, I don't think so, we needed a converted try and one more score with 10 minutes to go. We just didn't do it. It wasn't narrow, it was too much, with too many of England's old way saying that 'We should have beat them!'. Well, wake up England, Martin should quit now, and leave his reputation in tact. There is no point talking tough about 'we could have done this, and could have done that, and won', well, I could have predicted all the correct numbers on the lottery and won, but I didn't. It's disappointing and embarrassing.

As an englishman I was pleased that england played better than for some time and I enjoyed a thoroughly enthralling game of Rugby as it should be...apart that is from the referee.
As a former referee i would say that if I was the referees observer for this match Mr. Kaplan would have scored around three out of ten, he was so intent on watching england that he missed or disregarded continuous offsides by wales, and several more serious incidents.
this said however if england had not earned the reputation that they have it would not have been an issue.
Finally after my mini rant Well Done Wales I did not think that you showed much in the Scotland game but you proved today that you can take the pressure, regroup and play on Good luck in france.

When I saw Kaplan on the sheet for the game, I knew England would lose. I don't think he's a bad ref - but he has won a reputation for liking a fast running game - which means any attempt to slow down the ball will result in penalties. Which is exactly the sort of game Wales wanted and England would have known this. So there can be no excuses for the yellow cards.

With the ELVs in place, there aren't many alternatives - England must learn to open up and play some fast paced expressive rugby, which they are entirely capable of. They have to get used to the idea that the old style forwards dominated encounters are being consigned to history. Like it or not.

(Not - in my case, but maybe I'm nostalgic)

Are England good enough to beat Ireland? Absolutely, but they must show a little more confidence, keep ball in hand, and make sure that it's the Irish pack who fall into the yellow-card trap.

The ref didn't have a bad game, ive seen far worse. England are just making excuses. It just shows how far England have fallen that they are so happy at only loosing by 8 points against Wales, they were world cup finalists 15 months ago!! Think Worsley was picked out to be MoM before the game, only made a few tackles on a centre, big deal, he didnt do anything else. One more thing, I couldnt stand Brian Moores biased commentry on the game, really irritating, he sounded more like a fan than a commentator, really unprofessional. Wales played well in patches but need a little bit more magic, looking forward to the return of Henson and Williams who will provide it.

...oops, forgot to add, as always you have written a good article :)

Why can't the english fans see that england have been slowing balls down at the breakdown for years!! This isn't something new - it's from the Johnson era!! It's just that now with the ELV's refs are picking up on it more. England nead to realise that they have got to let the ball go, if not it will be a penalty, a try at the worst. If Goode had not slowed the ball down it would have almost been a definite try for Wales as england were at sixes and sevens. Just another comment - I cannot stand Brian Moores commentary for the BBC so one sided towards the English - it was almost as if he was talking to Martin Johnson throughout the game, so unprofessional Brian. If you do not like the decisions the referee makes maybe you shouldn't be in the commentary box!!

Wow What a game, For me yesterday just confirmed what we already know, International rugby is the mutts nutts. I threw up twice through sheer terror and panic, well done England, they were brilliant! playing with real pride and skill, I was very disappointed with Johnsons comments after the game though, what was he on about? only interested in winning? If England invest in yesterdays performance and continue to adapt their game with the new generation coming through it won't be too long before they start thumping sides again. They should stop l;ooking for quick wins and stop worrying about losing games, concentrate on the performance and the victories will come.

As for Wales, the halfbacks should be dropped, Mike Phillips looks sloppy and struggles to get the ball away from rucks, and stephen jones is as dynamic as a paving-stone! The french back-row will have these two for breakfast, get HOOK on the bl00dy pitch he is without doubt the best 10 in world rugby why are we persisting with the perpetual bottler Jones?

Like some of the posters I have waited until the morning to comment. Firstly I am English so my opinion is obviously biased although I try not to be.
Congrats to the Welsh, I thought that they were marginally the better team as the score suggests and I think if Borthwick would have gone for the try and not the kick when we were a few yards out and the score would have been cut to 1 point the Welsh would have creaked. But we will never know.
Most of the points have already been made by previous posters but here are few to ponder.
1. Have England created this Aura of being dirty and therefore Refs are actively looking to penalise us? I think that is the case. But in fairness we have created this situation so we must deal with it.
2. With a World cup in mind how much can Wales improve? 10-20%? They are just about playing they're best now. England 60 - 70% So in 2011 who will go out in the quarters as usual?
3. Perhaps more worryingly for Wales. Correct me if I'm wrong but so far after 2 games in this years 6 Nations. Have they scored a try against 15 men? In these games they couldn't score until England and Scotland had men yellow carded. So much for the much vaunted "Best 3's in the Northern Hemisphere"
4. By the way the Welsh reacted to the win is this the summit of their ambition? this should be a stepping stone to greater things not the summit of all their achievements. That is why they will never get to a WC final never mind winning it.

No in the cold light of day as an Englishman I am very happy that we seem to be moving forwards. No we won't win the 6 Nations but are definately moving in the right direction

I've seen Kaplan dominate/ruin too many games, too often.

Sporting cliche #127, a good official is one you don't notice - well he certainly gets my attention every time. Saw him ruin a Gloucester - London Irish game 3 years ago, the players were so frustrated at his officiating that the game nearly degenerated into a mass brawl.

He came into this game with it clearly in his mind that England were going to play in a certain way. As I've said other other threads, I've no problem with the yellow cards handed out. But it's the complete lack of consistency with regards penalising Wales the same way that is so annoying. Late on in the game, the penalty that Flood missed with 5 minutes to go - why wasn't the Welsh player binned for doing exactly what Tindall and Goode had done? It wasn't as if it was the first time they'd been penalised.

I'm also trying to remember the last time I didn't see a player binned for taking out another player in mid-air, but of course Byrne gets away with it. Needless to say, the next England player to commit that offence will probably see the ref brandishing the yellow card before the other player's hit the ground.

I knew Wales would win, but considering how poor we're told England are, may be they aren't as good as they'd like to think they are. No chance whatsoever of winning the next World Cup.

And Ron666, considering the good grace with which Wales fans taking winning and losing, you clearly don't get the concept of irony, do you????

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Yes we lost against wales but my god we can hold are head up high.
They were convinced they were go to run us in to the ground , did they no they did not well done england but tied your act up.

You obviously didn't read the papers before yesterdays game? I can't remember anyone from the welsh camp atating that we were going to run Eng into thwe ground! I do remember Gatts and capn saying how tough the game was going to be though.

As Cherries_4ever points out... you never notice a good ref.

And as this thread shows, not only did we all notice yesterday's officious (Freudian Slip), nobody's even so much as spelt his name wrong, yet.

Kipland had a great game.

I'll enjoy talking to you guys in two weeks....after croke park, we'll see how far Eng have progressed.

Sarky ;o)

Great article Tom, and some half decent comments also, unlike the reactionary rubbish over on the 6*6 boards...

Anyway, great game and happily Wales seemed to have resisted the temptation to read any newspapers or watch any TV during the last week. A hammering of England would have been a freak result - these are pretty much derby games where what goes on in the top 2 inches is as important as anything and where the result is impossible to call.

Agree that Gethin Jenkins was immense. Following his barnstorming running of 3 or 4 years ago he seems to have become a quieter, though solid performer but one of several vying for a Lions place. Yesterday he certainly rasied his game.

And of all the prematch psych-out we saw in the build up, well Gatland edges it again. All the talk about decoding the England lineout manifested itself in a game plan that gave Wales virtually no England lineouts to decode. Johnson, on the other hand, with his defensive selection, his comments about Martyn Williams and the request to keep the roof open, set his stall out early enough for all of us, Kaplan included, to realise what England would try to do. Last week, the Twickenham crowd apparently 'spooked' the team, this week, Kaplan apparently handed Wales victory.

Kaplan was pretty much the first ref to see Ritchie McCaw's 'groundwork' techniques for what it they are and has often whistled him out of a whole game. Whatever you think of Kaplan, trangressing on the floor will get you nowhere, end of. Johnson says that refs have preconceived ideas about some players. Maybe, they are human (I think), but it helps if those preconceptions are not fuelled by your own coach.

I'm a Wales fan, and I thought Kaplan didn't have his greatest game. I was surprised that Byrne didn't get binned for his hit on Armitage in the air, and I think it was Armitage's admirable lack of reaction or fuss that kept Byrne on the field.

Also, Byrne's pass to Halfpenny for the try was flat at best.

Tindall's card was just silly play from England. If you've already been warned by the ref, killing the ball AGAIN 3 minutes later is only going to have one result. I agree with a previous poster though, Kaplan had backed himself into a corner by warning Borthwick early on, and he really had no choice.

Goode's yellow was a definite binning for me. If that ball had been recycled quickly, a try was a very real possibility with England's defence splintered.

England have got a reputation as a dirty team now, and it's going to take a while to lose it. 8 cards in three tests now, and not all of those were reffed by Kaplan.

Great game though, exciting and absorbing from beginning to end. Let's hope both teams can push on from here and have a good remainder of the championship.

PS Tom, another great article.

Got to laugh at some comments being made about Kaplan. One idiot says Goode was taken out "a full 2 seconds after he kicked the ball leading to Sackey's try". Two seconds?? Watch it again and get the stopwatch on it. Not even one second!! And surely, even if there was an offence (there wasn't) he played an excellent advantage and you got the try??

Byrne was lucky to escape a yellow for the tackle on Armitage. As for the two yellows, he had warned England about slowing the ball down and he took action on the next offender each time.

As for it being a "narrow" win, it was by two scores.

What does the future hold? Well Wales can improve and England have to. England have to get their gameplan to embrace the ELV's.

But Wales did well to overcome the favourites tag and considering England has ten times the number of rugby clubs than Wales has, it wasn't a bad day.......

Nobody's saying England were faultless, far from it. There were silly infringements, and they should really have gotten the message when Kaplan issued his warning as early as he did.

What's annoyed England fans, me among them, is that Kaplan then ignored a lot of Welsh infringements... some of which were quite blatant and cynical... with the result that Wales were offside too often, tackled too early, causing more breakdown situations for England to get caught out in.

It's just too easy to blame the ref though isn't it?

Welshwizard... call me what you like, then go back and watch it yourself and be honest. If an England player had done that to a Welsh kicker, you'd be screaming for a 3 match ban, never mind a yellow.

Grow up.

A really good game. England played well but beaten by a superior Welsh team. I'm not sure I agree that the ref had a bad game as England's offences were the by-product of Welsh pressure. The first card was maybe a little premature but under pressure, England in the first 20 mins had to resort to giving penalites that with hindsight were stupid to give away. On balance England's performance has given us many positives to move forward with but the lack of discipline needs to be addressed.

Armitage played well and looked solid under the high ball and Ellis won the scrum half battle. Goode played well with vision (when he decided not top hoof it) just a pity his kicking at goal was poor again. Worsley was immense in the tackle and Kennedy was again good in the line out. Tindall and Cueto have added much needee experience to the back line and Flutey has shown some nice touches and breaks. Most encouragingly England produced quick ball (though not enough) at the breakdown.

Wales on the other hand were not at their scintilating best. England managed to slow them down and disrupt Williams/Phillips/Jones. However Wales rarely looked in trouble, Powell again took the ball forward well, Wyn Jones is proving an excellent player, a shoe-in for the Lions surely, and Gethin Jenkins is currrently one of the best front rowers in the world. Wales are just an outside centre short of having a truely excellent team.

Easy to blame the ref; he seemd to have a bad game and be biased against England. Although England gave him too much opportunity to take that position.

Wales looked a good side; when England were defensive; and an average side when England ran at them.

England look as though they could have a great attacking side - if they would try to do it.

Not sure that Goode is the right man for the job; not bad, but kicking didn't work and not quite enough pace. However I can't see anybody better at the moment.

Keep the side together and tell them to keep playing Rugby and to attack more.

New to bloggs but here goes:-

Caplan has not reffed englands other recent games wher they have had penalties sin bins galore.

If you cant play whiter than white against a team as poor as the Italians were last saturday, then there is a serious structural problem in the way you play.

Caplan did spend a lot of time looking for england slowing down the ball yesterday. It could have something to do with fact that Martin johnson had spent the week before telling the world that was exactly what they intended to do.

Strong performance by england, they were never going to be poor against us at cardiff.

Positive for wales is that we found a way to win despite having our main weapons either missing (williams/ henson et all) or so effectivley blunted by the opposition (powell and roberts).

Our line out showed a big improvement. that was percieved as a major weakness.

As for the penalties, concious decisions on behalf of defending team to slow the ball down rather than give quick ball against a disorganised defensive line. Sometimes it works and you get away wtih it. Yesterday England did'nt get away with.

With the Lions in mind it is good to see England playing well again. We will need as many players going as well as they can for the summer.

Welsh arrogance, well maybe a little, but it has to be said with all the talk a few years back about England france needing to be scheduled as the last game every year coz that would be the decider and then england joining the tri nations coz the rest of us werent good enough.........Sorry england fans but some of you did set yourself up for a bit of a fall from grace.

If all our injuries are sorted should be a stron welsh bench against the french in a fortnight

English fans there is no point in discussing the merits of kaplans reffing when you have (most of) the pathetic welsh blinkered boys on the blog.

All I can suggest is they all take a look at the last 8 mins again (see BBCi) from the time Ryan Jones gave away the pen for lying on the wrong side in their 22 with us pushing for another try!! Surprise surprise no yellow.

Jonathan Davies commented on that. Should have been Captain off and game on. Instead he stayed and Kaplan then gave 4 yes FOUR more consecutive decisions unfairly in Wales' favour one of which Eddie Butler pointed out not spotting where they were 2 yes TWO metres offside and resulted ultimately in the two score difference.

I am gratified that there are a couple of welsh fans here who have acknowledged Kaplans poor performance reffin only one side. I rest easy that wales wont get such preferential treatment when england are not the opposition (cmon Ireland).

How can anybody possibly diss englands rwc success as being based on a lucky route to the final?! Because they forget the 14 consecutive home and away successes against SH teams leading up to it. SCW decided v early on that we should measure ourselves against them which resulted in us being no 1 in the world for 2+ years. For wales the stereophonics 'as long as we beat the english' mentality is alive and kicking I'm delighted to say. We all know about Wales dreadful record against the big 3!! 2 consecutive grand slams big deal (if it happens).

ps the 'you've got twice as many teams in england than us' chestnut too! what a surprise an ill-informed so-called celt. our player base has contracted considerably whereas wales' had expanded. even so cant remember the last time a kiwi threw that one into the mix. Oh yes - never

I have to agree with most of the posters that I thought it was a great game - albeit it a little predictable. If you take away the ferocity and battle and looked at the gameplan it was exactly how most of us imagined it would be:

'Wales attacking and England looking to spoil and counter if possible.'

I agree that joe worsley and gethin Jenkins were outstanding - a real World Class effort from two of the bigger men on the park. I though Goode played well, until the yellow, but that was his only real option or 7 points would have been made instead of three - not his fault, but he had to take 10 for it.

Kaplan had his inconsistencies, but I do believe he was justified for the majority of decisions, england tried to spoil the game and were punished. Enlgand's only downfall after a heroic performance was trying to play an England game against a running Wales team and a ref that likes open rugby. If england had been a better team, they may have been able to change their gameplan to suit the game (for the win and the ref), but they simply don't have enough class or experience in the team just yet. Better teams have more options...

Wales on the other hand, are becoming a real world class outfit and showed us another string to their bow - or should I say armour. They played with flair at times, but more importantly, brute force that 3 or 4 years ago simply did not exist. They have changed their mindset and have become as ferocious as their larger neighbours.

I just wanted to go back to kaplan's contribution - yes he did warn england, and maybe things seemed harsh, but the players have to note that they were warned - vickery was constantly warned about his scrummaging, brothwick was told to talk to his players (he didn't) - yellow cards were inevitable - because england could not play any other game. they scored two great break-away tries, it has to be said, and I was impressed, but Wales always looked like scoring - it was the spoiling mentality that kept the game close - hard defending, and try saving illegalities. Sorry to the england posters on this blog, but until you get some more options, this is how the game will be suffering for you for now.

well played wales - I enjoyed the skill and power, plenty of Lion representation in the squad.

All good positive stuff from a great test match - a credit to both teams for putting on a great spectacle for Northern hemisphere rugby.
As a Welshman, I was proud to see at the start that both National anthems were conducted with respect and I heard no adverse booing from the 75,000 crowd.

Great to see the fish are biting!!

Oicsdontexist - Borthwicks haymaker? Vickery constantly rolling and not square in the scrum, Goode holding on to take 3 points instead of 7 - it could have been worse and back to back Grand Slams - are not to be laughed at - you should behave yourself a little bit...

Other points you've made:
I'm not bothered about england as an 'old enemy' - we're gunning for bigger fish now, and even though it may take some more time at least we're on the way with it.
'Twice as many teams' - again, I don't care about the stats or 'we're only a small nation' - I simply watched the game and move on to the next, the game was excellent, no excuses - no complaining, played 2 won 2. If I were you, I'd concern myself with a very good irish team in two weeks...

Go-On_Mog. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you statethat without a doubt James Hook is the best 10 in world rugby? LOL

I was very surprised after the Twickenham game that there were no Welsh yellow cards for the two take outs of English players jumping to catch the ball. I thought it was a tough game that could of gone either way, but my blood boils at the inconsistancy (rather than bias ) of the refs.

Disappointed we couldn't quite pull it off but, considering England were supposed to get battered up and down the pitch according to the Welsh fans, a hard-fought loss is better than expected.

The discipline problem is really killing our chances though, no doubt at all.

RobSmiley, the kick from Goode led to a try. He was NOT tackled two seconds after he kicked it. If you exaggerate to make a point, expect to be picked up on it.

England tried their hardest to get away with murder on the pitch, with joke inclusions to the scrum, throw-ins to English line-outs and clear pitch offences.

However, they played far better than last week......but still lost! How many times were we forced to say this about Wales during the 90s?

Gatland, Edwards, Howley et al. have managed to transform this squad and they deserve major recognition...even with a performance that should rate 6-7/10. They will need to up this against France and Ireland in particular, but they CAN do it so let's see it happen boys and make history with back-to-back Grand Slams!

Oicsdontexist - '14 consecutive home and away successes against SH teams leading up to it ' - that's not right fella it was an impressive run - but don't add up wins against the Nh teams and try to sneak them in as wins agsint the SH - I know my stats too and you've been given hidings by the Allblacks not too far before 2003 and certainly plenty after - get your facts right before coming to the post.

Also, your record against the Allblacks is 18% win ratio adn 38% agaisnt the Austrailians, hardly the stuff of legend - and our ratio is 50% against you, that makes it 50% for you to us - I think you're forgettign yuorself a little. I could go back to the welsh heyday, but there's no need, you may have to reminisce a little to find the resutls you need to be happy.

I don't understand why Southern Hemisphere refs officiate 6 nations games. They have a totally different interpretation of the laws and are blinkered when it comes to England.

Wales are a very good side at the moment, but when the opposition are not allowed to compete on equal terms it is an unfair contest. I counted at least 3 occasions where Welsh players should have been sin binned, but the hapless Mr Kaplan did not have that in his game plan. Just like his compatriot in the 2003 RWC final he did his level best to shaft England.

I'm feeling optimistic about the trip to Paris, France looked less than impressive in victory over Scotland yesterday. On the Henson front, I'd still start with the form man (Roberts), with Henson off the bench for the last twenty.

mwkeeper (comment 58)

i don't think it's much to do with the ref being from the southern hemisphere,

they all hate england, england NEVER get the best of the refereeing, and theres only new zealand that are allowed to come in from the side and put their hands in the ruck with impunity.

the yellow cards were fair enough yesterday (though the pass immediately before goode's looked forward to me)

england would still have won if not for the schoolboy errors of weak characters.

though i suspect england will find a way to lose to both the french and the irish, that will probably be the hardest game wales play in this years championship, heres to them winning the grand slam as i'd rather them than either of those two irritating nations

England seem to be getting a raw deal from referees these days. What's a penalty against most teams seems a yellow card against England.

And vice versa, in two matches last week yellow cards were given for tackling players in the air. But Bryne only got a penalty for tackling Armitage in the air.

Consistency please. Goode's sin binning cost England at least 8 points but his offence was a penalty offence.

England played better this week and at twickenham would have won the game, the welsh fans as ever were superb at backing their team.
I thought the referee had the poorest performance I have seen at test level for many years, he was blind to welsh offsides and only managed to find his yellow card for England when lee byrne should have had 10 mins for taking a man out in the air.

I think Wales will go on to win a deserved slam, but Ireland will be a tough test and I hope a cracking game.

glad a few of the English lads put their hands up for the Lions and I thought Joe W was immense in defence.

England will stuff Scotland and France and give the Irish a stern test as well.

Awesome few weeks of rugby to whet the appetite for the Lions Tour!

To all the English who say it was a close game yesterday, it was only close for three reasons:
1. You kept slowing the ball down at the breakdown preventing any kind of flowing rugby by either side.
2. You bought a flanker in as an extra centre to man-mark Roberts.
3. You have no confidence in your backs as every time Goode had posession he would hoof it upfield instead of passing it out to the backs, giving possesson back to the Welsh.

P.S. What's going to be the English excuse at Croke Park for 2-3 yellow cards and a 30 point defeat?? Bad refereeing??

Great game, Wales were average, England played well, wales won by 2 scores - QED

Wales have been awful for long patches of last 25 years and funnily enough we gave away loads of penalties, had players sent off a-plenty and moaned about the referees constantly

Spot the theme?

England have some execptionally talented, young, individual players - Cipriani, Haskell, Armitrage but England do not play as a team (unlike Wales since Gatland-Edwards arrived). Johnson and his Leicester chums are England's problem to improving. Rob Andrew's get out of gaol card, the people's choice, Johnno is a 3rd rate coach

Long may he continue in situ

'Wales, i cannot help think that despite being a good team, the general lack of quality in the 6N recently has exagerated Wales' ability. There has ben no 6N team in the top 3 IRB rankings for a while whereas not too long ago there were two. Nevertheless Wales is an exciting team in progress.'

First of al name the two 6N teams in the top 3 and when was this?

Secondly Wales are fourth and beat australia who are third in November!

Thirdly Wales are only in their second year with Gatland....Sir Clive was there 6 years and had at least 4 years of playing the southern hemisphere teams year in year out which is what Gatland is trying to do....

I can see where some english people are coming from saying we wont win the world cup....but wales yesterday did what enlgand did pre2003 win ugly! thats how you win world cups. So writing us off so prematurely is a bit naive i feel.

first of all was a good game and england were much improved from last week. It was an ok blog but there are a few things i disgree with;
first andy powell may have made the most carries but he made no ground over the gain line as worsley was always there to tackle him so in effect he didn't really do anything.
second (see coment 2) are you insane worsley was clearly the best player on the pitch he was always there tackling the ineffective powel and stopping jamie roberts doing his normal runs. i never really saw jenkins doing anything and brian moore was correct when he said "i don't care because i'm right" after the welsh booed when he was announced man of the match.
thirdly (see coments 2 and 6) waihekejack you are taking absoulte rubbish the ref was appalling biased and gave Wales everything. after he warned england and yes he mayb shud have binned 1 of our players but he never warned wales and just let them get away with everything possible. i remember at one scrum he penalised vickery for not binding properly when jones was doing the exact same thing at the otherside when the ref was there and what did he do nothing, abosulty nothing and as for wales getting an. gwentgav86 i agree with you the ref did give you the game and im not saying that england would have won they may still have lost but the ref should always be fair and unbiased unlike yesterday. but i disagree with one thing that you said in that wales would have scored another two tries as worsley and co would have been able to stop you as the defense of england was much mor inproved.
i was appalled by some of his decisions and the ones were he just completly ignored most of the welsh infringements.

I'd go with Henson at 12 and Roberts at 13.....Shanklin put in some good hits and ran strongly, but at other times he just got pulled out of position far too easily.

As for the comments about Kaplan...

Martin Johnson stated in the post-match interview that it's difficult for teams away from home, when refs have preconceived ideas. So how about the yellow cards over the previous few internationals, all of which were at 'HQ'?

I'm impressed with RODDERSRUGBYREF's analysis of Kaplan's game, and wonder why he didn't choose to offer such analysis to the RFU ahead of yesterday. If it's known that Kaplan wants a quick game, why not adapt accordingly. In response to the other points he makes:

1. I agree that an early warning does place the referee in a corner, but similarly it sets the stall out as to how teams have to play the referee. England didn't, and it cost them. Wales weren't pinged for the first 60 minutes, generally because of better discipline and far greater faith that their defence would hold, and so they didn't annoy Kaplan to the same degree and in the same areas of the field.
2. Consistence is one thing, but circumstance needs to be considered too. Where did they do it? Had they been warned? Did they, perhaps, have as much knowledge on Kaplan as you seem to, whereas England were clearly clueless on discpline and playing the referee.
3. As a player you do what you can get away with. Any openside will play as loose from the scrum as they can afford to, and with Vickery getting pinged early on at the scrum, it was always likely that Kaplan would have been looking for further indiscretions. Perhaps not ideal if you're English, but human nature....it was an England problem early on, so he was looking for more of the same later.
4. Any player will steal as many yards as they can. It was a referee's position, you'll recall, that allowed Neil Back to tap the Munster ball into the scrum at Cardiff in the HEC Final. If the referee positioned himself differently, the main difference would be that the indiscretions would be different. You seem to make the assumption that the players bent the rules because Kaplan stood in the wrong place....they'll always bend the rules, wherever the referee stands.
5. If we start on a discussion of forward passes, then we'd have to take a view that there'd be dozens more scrums per game as there are so many borderline and forward passes these days that we'd be playing stop-start rugby in every game. Kaplan couldn't have referred the try to a TMO as the pass wasn't within the TMO's jurisdiction. If neither he, nor the TJ was able to call it forward, then it wasn't forward.
6. Alun Wyn Jones, and all of the Wales team, play the game to the level that the referee allows them to play. If he's warned for being offside, he'll adjust his game accordingly. I'd have thought, for a fee, he may even consider helping the English players adapt their game based on how it's refereed.....

AT HOME to New Zealand, the English had FOUR binned, Nigel Owens (Wales) refereeing. AT HOME to Italy, the English had TWO binned (including James Haskell, AGAIN), with Mark Lawrence (SA) refereeing. AWAY to Wales, they have a further two binned by a Bok referee.....Either England need to carry out more analysis of the refereeing habits of their next match officials, or they need to speak to the official pre-match to set out expectations. Recent stats, however, don't support the notion that the refereeing is a NH/SH interpretation issue, and they certainly suggest that England aren't learning from their mistakes..

The impression is that there is a 'vendetta' against England - if you're going to penalise and send players to the sin-bin - at least be consistent. England get pinged, yet other teams do the same and nothing is done.
The 2 yellows were extremely harsh, added to the forward pass, which was somehow missed. Oh, sorry, it's in Cardiff.
England need to carry on from this, and also ask the IRB/Refs, what the problem is - this has been going on since the Autumn. The cards last week were fair - no problem, but a lot of the others have been a joke. As was Alain Rolland yesterday - though he has very few good games.

good article Tom, dissecting the game very well.

A few points of interest for me is that yesterday wasn't really too much about the attacking game but the massive defensive games played by both side, joe worsley was everywhere for england, although just pushing roberts either inside or outside a few times may have made him less easier to contain, seeing the one time worsley wasnt man marking him leading up to 1/2p's try.

Also, whilst scrummaging good was the blindside flanker, surely if possible a slight wheel to allow powell to run in that area and take goode on seems a decent idea?

As for the Kaplan, yes, even as a welshman I recognize Byrne should've been carded, but for the first 10-15 minutes, you didn't let us play, and if MJ is going to go to the papers and say you're going to slow the game down of course the ref is going to see that and the fact that it was so persistent early on with the ref giving us advantage and/or penalties, yellow cards are inevitable and then the lesson should be learned. It's not like it was just one or two early penalties. It was persistent. And fair play on Kaplan for setting out the markers. But like I said, Byrne should've gone as well.

Sackey was made to look good by a player returning to rugby after an op and 8 weeks out. So all in all not a bad performance from mark jones, I've never really been too keen on Sackey, other than the try I don't really think he did much - Obviously there was the second chance where if he'd just caught the ball his momentum would've made it try time. But he didn't show as a clinical finisher.

At the end of the day, you can say as much as you want that the it was the ref's fault that England lost. But when you look at it objectively the chances were there, the two missed kicks, Sackey not finishing. More than enough for an England victory, so although for the now you're all being so crass about the ref's performance, lack of finishing/kicking was the reason that you lost. Alongside persistent fouling 8-)


Anyway, that's how I saw the match, Worsley and Gethin were MoMs for me.

goode* not scrummaging good. i didn't turn all caveman.


Also, just saw the comment before mine, had a good chuckle at that. A 'Vendetta' against England. Brilliant.

Brian Moore is not biased!
Listen again to his commentary again and you will hear him bemoan the lack of skills and direction in the England team. However, he did start to lose patience with Kaplan towards the end. He is an ex-player from the highest echelons of the sport, as both him and Butler were Lions. I would rather listen to both their opinions than the armchair players on this forum. Many (most) English supporters believe that Kaplan arrived with a pre-judged agenda, whereas the Welsh will believe he had a good game. C'est la vie.

what is all this i keep reading about france and ireland being 'good teams'!!!! France are a very poor side and struggled to beat a very poor scotland yesterday. Ireland have not even won the championship for over 25 years!

Neither of these sides should pose too many problems for a wales side playing well.

Yesterday we did not play well - allowing a very average england side too look half decent. Ignore all this post match hype coming from english pundits about how much 'improved' england are - they were no better yesterday than they have been for the last couple of years.

In sackey, worsely, goode and flood they have some good players who can cut it at international level but borthwick must be the worst england captain for over 20 years. He is also a very average player

This is a very limited english side whos only tactic appears to be to try and stop the other side playing - hence all the pens they keep conceding and all the sin bins they suffer.

Wales should have put 30 points on this england side

a major fact highlighted in this game perfectly, was the inconsistancies between northern and southern hemisphere refs!

kaplan was a disgrace!

he should sit down with the governing bodies and explain himself for his shambolic performance.
This game could have been an all time classic, instead it was just as many other games are, ruined by ref decisions which beggar belief.

- warning england players with less than 6 minutes on the clock?
- yellow carding tindle for his first offence?
- missing sackey's constant high tackles
- the amount of times welsh players played the man when ball had gone (i ran out of fingers counting these in the first half)
- england came in from the side - penalty, wales came in from the side - nothing given
- tackling the man, then tackling another player whilst on the floor
- goodes yellow card? why?
he tackled the man then got to his feet and tried to play the ball, no ruck called so why the card, it shouldnt have even been a penalty!
england went down under wales posts, the welsh played the ball on the ground without getting to their feet and england get the put in for a scrum???
- lost count of the times when wales took the ball into the tackle and it didnt come out, and then got the penalty - have the rules changed in this area? england were penalised for it time and time again!

exactly how would england have benefitted from collapsing the scrum? (bigger pack, stronger forwards) on all but one occasion when the welsh collapsed the scrum, england were penalised, why?

its not sour grapes at all, this game could have been talked about for decades, a strong welsh side is great for the game, and england rising to the challenge in the fantastic millenium stadium surroundings, all the ingredients were in the pot, then we get a southern hemisphere ref who destroys it and effects the result by being completely inconsistant, awarding penalties for something then turning a blind eye when the opposing team did the same thing.

its destroying rugby union and it needs sorting out immeadiately!

cs15hammer sums up my feelings on the matter quite well.

Great performance from the English lads.

After last week, I never thought I'd be this proud of the team, especially in defeat.

The ref was very quick to his pocket and rather inconsistent when taking action against both teams, which actually, in my opinion, is quite funny. Finally, on blaming the ref for an England loss, I have at least some just cause!

And I don't think the Welsh players should be getting the biggest mention, I personally think it should be the coach. That man has moulded a group of wannabes into a wonderful team.

Well - there was a surprise - England hugely improved and as a neutral, they can feel hard done by by some of the referees decisions.
The two England yellow cards were fair enough - however, Byrne should have been in the bin for taking out Armitage in the air and the tackle on Sackey after kicking the ball through was again 'cardable'.
Having said that - what a blood and guts game by both teams - talk about 'fronting up'. I think Wales were amazed by the improved England and fair play to Wales for standing firm.
I had grave concerns about the Northern Hemisphere rugby after the first set of games - not now.
Ireland will win the 6 Nations I think - however, looking forward to the rest of it now.

Having read some of the comments - Welshleigh, naturally biased I accept, however, what you must accept is that Wales have done thier usual, played well the year after a World Cup, when all other nations take the chance of rebuilding.
Sadly, there is no strength in depth for Wales and, this is as good as they will get.
You have it right, Wales, if they are as good as they are made out to be should have put 30 points past the English team - what is a fact is that they are not good enough to do so and are now in decline towards the third best team in the UK behind Ireland and England - with Scotland coming up on the heels, they could even slip back to fourth.
The problem with the Welsh game is the domestic game, which sadly cannot attract the best players - it is a shame, however, money is beginning to price them out.

It was an excellent game and all credit to Wales who I thought did enough to deserve the win.

As an Englishman I am both pleased and wary with our performance. I am pleased because for the first time in a long time we showed some passion in defence and were much much more confident going forward. If we can play at that level in Dublin then we'll give Ireland a real test. However, I'm wary at the same time because we've had these false dawns before. When we beat France last year it was seen as a turning point but we slipped back into mediocrity so I'm hoping Johnson gets the team back on the training field and demands the same intensity every game.

I think when Flood and Tait came on to join Tindall and Flutey it really opened the game up and we threatened to score a third try. But I don't think we should fall into the trap of starting Flood in Dublin. It will be another massive game with the crowd dead against us again. So we need to settle down and play territory in the early part of the game. I'd start with Goode and bring Flood and Tait on in the second half.

First off, what a game of rugby - all the nations seem to be playing great, entertaining rugby - Scotland were desperately unlucky not towin yesterday...just hope the Evans bros. are. there to stay (though if hadden wants to rest them for the England game I'd be most happy!)

I agree that kaplan wasn't fantastic but the yellow cards were right on (I'm an avid English supporter btw) - they did the Leicester trick 'rather 3 than 7'

We NEED to sort out our discipline - it was painful at times...but if we move forward from here then we'll be well on our way in the right direction & please replace borthwick - he just seems like a bit of a thick lump.
nb. U should be in the referees ear all game a la gregan, mccaw, dallaglio

Well done Wales - but more to the point well done the northern hemisphere!

Let's stuff SA on the lions tour!!!!

I'm very excited about the potential lions 22 now! : )

Wales won and deserved to. As an England fan I want to see some progress and got some, so that's unfortunately the limit of my ambition at present, as long as it keeps going.

Borthwick needs to be a skipper - he seems to be too much a (fairly)competant field soldier, but not more - can you imagine Dellaglio or Johnson not being in the ref's ear - Byrne should have gone 10 mins and towards the end, can't remembr who killed it near the Welsh line - but the justification for Goode going was proximity - Borthwick should have reminded the myopic Kaplan of consistency!

And I am sorry the offside was nonsense - Wales seem to have achieved the level of competance of getting away with it that the All Blacks do, against everyone.

BUT and amongst all that Wales were better and won, actually without too much difficulty and they closed out the game with ease.

Shame for England they have to go away against Ireland next - could be too much of a knock back.

RussDJ, 09.12 am, I agree that Brian Moore is biased, but surely you don't think that Eddy Butler is any better? Not a good word all day for England. If you think Worsley only made a few tackles, then you didn't watch the match. And what has gone wrong with the old educated Welsh crowd? Whistling at penalties? I thought that was for Murrayfield and the French! It used to be the etiquette was perfect silence, but the Welsh have obviously forgotten that in the excitement of finally being good again.

For years fans of other countries complained about referees allowing the likes of Dallaglio, Back and Hill to get away with murder at the breakdown. Now the boot is on the other foot and England fans are complaining. You should all just grow up and take the ups and downs as they come. Wales deserved to win yesterday, the winning margin was about right for the match. That's it.

Dear Rupert, strange name for a welshman - not complaining - just suggesting Borthwick needs more as a skipper. Read the rest "Wales won and deserved to" and "they closed out the game with ease".

When you are not the best side you don't get the breaks, in a professional game you need to try everything to get some.

Oviously the complaining against the England old guard worked!

Quality, pulsating and intriguing. I enjoyed the game very much. A lot has been said about the games and the teams so rather than repeat the praises, criticisms or whatever, i want to add a point about Martin Johnson.

Why has someone with little experience managing England? Some of the explainations in the past don't quite hold up and I really can't help feeling and thinking this is boys looking after their own.

I don't think England will be doing anything special in Rugby for a long long time.

Anyone who thinks Kaplan had a good game is either myopic or Welsh.
The offside was being played to perfection by Wales albeit on the wrong side of the law.
Forward pass missed on several occassions, including the pass to Halfpenny that led to Goode going.
Not the cricket score the Welsh wanted and I would be slightly worried with this performance and the one against Scotland.
Ok so a win is a win but you have France and Ireland to go.
Winding up for a barnstorming 6N.

very very very well done wales!thoroughly deserved!wasn't the best game for quality ball in hand rugby, but couldn't be bettered for passion, commitment and drama!
wales won just about every aspect of the game, but england were a much tougher task than expected-fair play goes to them for their part in what was a classic wales-england thriller

i personally think wales were lucky to win, because they got away with so much foul play, in the last 20mins they were constantly offside and didnt get penalised once for it. i also think the supporters behaviour was terrible as they kept booing the english kickers, resulting in several missed kicks.

What is wrong with booing the English kickers?

the english supporters didnt boo the welsh kickers!! rugby fans generally dont do things like that, in other sports maybe. rugby supporters are normally more respectful than that

Enjoyed the game,credit due to both sides
but,can`t the beeb find better English pundits,?A former male model,a manicurist and a ballroom dancer,whats Rob Andrew doing these days?

I thought the after match comments were one sided and not a true reflection of the game

Comment 88, please go back to watching football - that's obviously where you belong. If you don't know what is wrong with booing a kicker, you are obviously watching the wrong sport.

There's a lot being said about Kaplans refereeing here. Alsdo a lot of bitching on how Wales played him to pefection.

Kaplan talked to the English and explained Borthwick his plan - England pushed it,

Wales pushed it - lots of comments how Ryan Jones should have gone.

Difference Jones did enough and made an albeit shambles of an attempt to move away. - playing the ref........

Now heres a view you need look at. The video analysts study refs and play to their "weakness'" dont try telling that they dont listen to every word of commentary from the refs and work out how to do it. Then relay that in teh game to the players. Been there done it!

So if Engkand cant work out Kaplans game prior to the match more fool England they knew what Kaplan was about and total lack of discipline cost.

Wales on other hand played it "correctly"

Do I like it ?no but this is the game these days. In teh old days with your local ref you knew what to expect and do now its at a very different level.

Very hard for refs.

As far as I'm concerned if England play a slow donkey style game get penalised and binned - you've been able to do it for years and get away with it very nicely - good for Kaplan and go send a few Welsh guys off too I wouldnt have grumbled. I wanted see a great game I got one

As far as it goes Goode could grumble but he knew what he was doing and prevented Wales winning a quick ball which the yconcievable would have scored.

Just the way it is Wales will look forward to France as England will look forward to Ireland - England need get disciplined end of story - or the bin bench is goingbe staying very warm.

As as longstanding English supporter I say all credit to Wales for winning the game. As MJ has said in effect England could have won it if they were as much of a complete team as Wales- which they were not.

But I was greatly encouraged by the English performance and there are signs that a team may be building. Having defended the selection of Joe Worsley all week I felt that he really proved a point.

But this brings up the question of just how MJ allowed, possibly Warren Gatland, and certainly the Media to create this idea that when he said that England must stop Wales from getting quick ball- this meant using the famous Leicester techniques of "slowing down the ball". Gatland even refered to having deliberately watched some of tapes of Leicester club games.

And I have to say that I had something of a sinking feeling when I saw that Kaplan was refereeing this game. I am not a stats man, but I would be very interested to see his career total of penalties against England as opposed to penalties for.

I perhaps do the man an injustice, but it is quite possible that - as England players often do not play with quite as much passion as some other sides- their indiscretions are interpreted by him more as evil and calculated rather than mere "getting carried away" that could account for example for the Gough tackle that looked rather like a sheer shoulder charge.


As far as I am concerned Worsley was THE weapon against the Welsh quick ball, which against Scotland had come from the rampant and powferful runs of Roberts and Powell. Both of them got very little change from Worsley all game; and as England tackled much more ferociously than Scotland I will need to watch the game again to see whether England were piling more men into the contact zone.

But overall it is unfortunate for the whole game of rugby that our appreciation of possibly the best true rugby game that we may see this Six Nations has been dimmed by this controversy...But after another day of endless whistle, etc, there may be lessons to be learned as to whether recent law changes have improved the game for the fans.

As it was, Wales, minus the World Player of the Year, still looked and played more like a team than England; and, much as I was uplifted by Sackey's try, would he have made it against Shane Williams rather than Mark Jones? That MJ had not played for seven weeks.

And Armitage's try is the kind of thing that you get on the plus side when you play someone who is still learning his trade, and will play on a "pick and mix" basis.

And, as for learning trades, just as MJ and his team have not yet understood Media manipulation before games, perhaps they have also not mastered the manager's half-time talk. After all MJ has been brought in because of his great captaincy skills; and perhaps gave a captain's rather than a manager's talk in the dressing room.

Certainly it looks like the match was in effect decided by the 10 minute sin-binning of Goode; and, as that came more or less straight after the half-time break, perhaps strong words had been put to Goode about keeping up his own defensive commitment.

But I hope that my lasting memory of this game will be the smiling face of Ryan Jones who, from his very first start for Wales had shown all of the qualities that Rugby fans must love to see in their game.

No Englishman should begrudge such a honest and fair Corinthian the happiness of leading Wales to a victory over England that they still had to earn; for, in spite of all the penalties, Wales still had to hold off a very determined English effort to win.

Cass

Good blog.

Congrats Wales - you deserved to win - just.

For shame Mr Kapland - you had a shocker, and are fast becoming as dreaded as the appalling Mr Dickenson.

For shame too the Millenium crowd and their booing and jeering of the English kickers - one of rugby's core values is respect - lose that and we're no better than football(God forbid).

I find the idea of a international league of probability to receive yellow cards intriguing; for an identical offense, which country would be most or least likely to receive a sin-binning?

As we know, black and yellow don't go, so the ABs are the least likely and will continue to get away with murder. England would be somewhere near the most likely, but what of the others?

Anyway - well done you Whites - stuffed all those predications of cricket scores down a few throats and scared the bejazus out of 'em.

Bottom line? Surprisingly, both Wales and England are still works-in-progress, and this year's 6N probably still has a few twists to provide. What odds on France to be the 2009 champions?

Good article Tom and a fair appraisal of the game. Couldn't fault the commitment from England but Wales just had a stealth player, in the form of the referee .... I am an Americal living in the UK for the past 6 years and I have never witnessed such a biased attitude from a referee.

There are some really good comments on this blog but there are also some of the usual anti english/anti welsh stuff that is so childish.

I'm a brit (with strong welsh roots) and I'm in Portland Oregon, USA. I watched the game live in a pub in town at 9.30am (beer doesn't taste as good then!!).

It was a great game and boith sides take away much credit. The English for their improvement and the Welsh for their heart and ability to change tactics so admirably.

Refs come and go - but to whine that England lost because Kapland is biased is so stupid. England lost because of a lack of discipline at crucial moments and Wales won because they were the slightly better team on the day. It's a game that's all.

I was in a pub with about 40 Americans who were amazed at the speed, power, fitness and determination of all on the pitch. This game was a spectacle which showed British sport at its best - I was proud to be a Brit - but perhaps slighly prouder to be a Welshman as well.

Having watched the Lee Byrne incident again a few times , I can see why he wasn't binned. If you look again you will see another england player standing in front of Armitage protecting him, and he actually obstructs Lee Bryne causing him to mistime his catch. you can't always go by the commentary for your opinions, they make mistakes as well!

Great game I thought. Both teams playing with passion, commitment and, after England stopped giving away penalties as a game plan, with a willingness to play rugby. When England put a bit of pace into their game, they look like they could be a good team again - which is good for the forthcoming Lions tour.

But its obviously got to be replayed, with a different ref. Can't have all those disappointed and bitter English fans upset now can we. Oh - and whilst we're at it, replay the match from 2006, when at least 3 of the English tries, were forward passes, deliberate knock-ons, or whatever (we'd have only lost by 10pts then!!). And I'm sure NZ will be happy to have the last world cup quarter final with France replayed too, whilst we're at it.....

So come on guys (and gals) - the ref was bound to look especially hard at England's tactics at the breakdown after Johnson's comments in the week, and the fact that its been 'the English way' for years (though they don't seem to be as cute at it, as they were in the days of the likes of Neil Back et al). Someone commented earlier they were 'happy' at England's performance - well, I wouldn't go that far, they lost after all, but at least they now seem willing to play a bit, which should bode them well for future games, as they have a back 3 that can do damage to anyone. Someone said Wales need to find a 13 - thought that unfair as Shanklyn had a super game - its England suffering there, as Tindall looked pretty clueless to me. Wales didn't play at their finest - England simply didn't allow them to (hats off for the likes of Joe Worsley, and England's defensive plan) - but we are now finding ways of winning when we don't play at our best, which is what good teams do (as England did leading up to 2003). So overall I think both teams can take something out of the game - but importantly for us, that included the 2points for winning.

PS - I think the return of Henson at 12 (and obviously Shane at 11) will add a extra dimension to our back play, as he seems to be able to vary his game more than Roberts, depending on what's happening in front of him.