How will public sector cuts affect cities like Liverpool?

It's not just Liverpool.

The tories are presenting a cynical fiction that their cuts will fall on the evil public sector - divide and rule.

The reality can already be seen. Most vulnerable to cuts are 'private sector' firms which have state contracts. The first people to loose jobs have been construction workers who would have built schools and roads. Future victims are private contractors in areas like NHS computing and the ship yard workers building aircraft carriers, submarines etc

Cuts only affecting the evil public sector? I'm OK because I'm private sector? .... Think again.

Sssshhh Robert - you'll spread fear amongst those who don't realise we're already in a revolution.

"And, with the police warning of an increased risk of social strife in these difficult economic times"

....so the police agree then?...but I thought I was merely a discredited 'lefty', how can this be?

...but don't worry wallflowers - I'm sure someone will fix it for you, maybe you will get some time to educate yourself when you're sitting around in the dark this winter.

Robert wrote:

"The coalition government hopes and believes that the expansion of the private sector can compensate for the negative effect on economic growth and employment of its public spending cuts."

To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis "They world say that wouldn't they"

If defies economic sense to believe that the private sector will create jobs now on the down wave of a Great Depression when they didn't in the good times. This government statement is a pious hope that defies logic.

P.s. The video isn't working - maybe the video content man has already gone on strike.

Robert,

"The coalition government hopes and believes that the expansion of the private sector can compensate for the negative effect on economic growth and employment of its public spending cuts."

In other words what it is hoping for is further privatisation the public sector.

"The coalition government hopes and believes that the expansion of the private sector can compensate for the negative effect on economic growth and employment of its public spending cuts."

I just wonder where this belief comes from. Are we putting money into training? Are we providing start up money? Are we relying on Banks to make loans? What are these new industries and where are their customers? If they do exist will we be so busy paying off debts and building up our savings that we will do without these new sevices or products? Please someone convince me that it is going to be sufficient to reduce unemployment and get people off benefits. Exports? To where? Finacial services may make the figures look good, but they don't give us employment. The point about profitable FS is that it generates a lot of taxation which allows us to have a large public sector. How do we get the profits from the FS into the rest of the economy?

3. At 10:34am on 15 Sep 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:

"It defies economic sense to believe that the private sector will create jobs now on the down wave of a Great Depression when they didn't in the good times."

I get the impression they know this - they just don't care. Vince Cable and David Willets are more than happy to see PhD Physicists stacking shelves in Tesco!

1. At 10:27am on 15 Sep 2010, jon112dk wrote:

"The tories are presenting a cynical fiction that their cuts will fall on the evil public sector - divide and rule."

The Tories don't have an argument that holds water. They claim the public sector needs cutting, and with the assistance of some poor journalism they've whipped sections of the country into thinking the same.

....however when those same public sector workers threaten to strike, then they're all up in arms about the chaos and inconvenience caused by unions.

So on the one hand we're told that the public sector isn't needed or affordable, but only if it's withdrawn on their terms. If the argument was true then they wouldn't care about strikes in a sector which is not actually required.

1 piece of simple logical thought and the whole Tory ideology comes crashing down.

Now someone go and ask the Government this question and lets hear what they have to say.

3. At 10:34am on 15 Sep 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
"It defies economic sense to believe that the private sector will create jobs now on the down wave of a Great Depression when they didn't in the good times. This government statement is a pious hope that defies logic."
==============

Yes, it is pretty clear that the so called 'private sector' is heading down not up.

In addition to all the workers on government contracts directly harmed there are also indirect effects. Put thousands out of work and millions in fear of redundancy and the effect on consumer activity is obvious. The slow down has already started.

Private sector employment is headed down not up - the idea that they are going to produce millions of new jobs is laughable.

Love this manipulation of the figures.....

Claimiant count rose - i.e. more people out of full time work with no job

Unemployment overall fell - i.e. more people in part time work

So someone explain how someone in part time work is going to consume as much as when they were in full time work?

The switch from full to part time will ensure there is a jobs depression for many years to come as the pace of job losses are slowed, the dip becomes more of a Ushape than a sharper V shape.

...but don't tell the Government this - I don't want to ruin their day.

On the plus side the public sector cuts can only hasten the revolution, right WOTW?

So, you predict trouble on the streets; but where will it get you. Clearly, there are already preparations underway to deal with it. The present government is setting its course and it will go all the way, just like Margaret Thatcher did in the 80's. We voted and have not got what we expected.

We need to use the democratic process and we do have a lever – its their Achilles Heel. Its a coalition. So persuade the LibDems that they should split from the Tories and there will be an election.

Start the pressure now, don't leave it until people are made redundant. It will take time

Robert, by Liverpool, I assume you mean the whole of the Midlands, Northeast and NorthWest? Very glad to see you have left the London office, I hope it is starting to sink in that London really is a different world to most of the UK.

What I find quite depressing is how the cuts to the public sector are seen as so bad, yet the failure of 13 years of economic policy by the previous government to facilitate the creation of real wealth in these areas is barely discussed.

Isn't anyone thinking there is something distinctly "collapsed" about a city - or society - which directs all its people onto state sponsored projects? If this were the case universally then there would be no state sector as all tax revenue is derived from private sector activity (taxes paid by public sector workers are simply recycling from the same pot - they could just as easily be paid net of tax by the state and the result would be the same).

All wealth derives from the private sector, the state simply spends some of it.

The choice isn't between evil cuts or not, but between state failure or cold turney.

11. At 12:16pm on 15 Sep 2010, Averagejoe wrote:

"On the plus side the public sector cuts can only hasten the revolution, right WOTW?"

...better to be able to identify your enemy than be stabbed in the back by your friend - right Labour?

Interesting that the guy in the piece said that the prospects of the young in Toxteth hasn't changed in 30 years - but I thought we were all getting richer under Capitalism and with more opportunities

Fake, fake, fake - all fake....and as with all great deceptions - the return of reality is a painful experience - especially for those who continue to deny what is right in front of them.

12. At 12:22pm on 15 Sep 2010, SleepyDormouse wrote:

"So, you predict trouble on the streets; but where will it get you. Clearly, there are already preparations underway to deal with it. The present government is setting its course and it will go all the way, just like Margaret Thatcher did in the 80's. We voted and have not got what we expected."

The poll tax riots started the downfall of the Thatcher Government.

"We need to use the democratic process and we do have a lever – its their Achilles Heel. Its a coalition. So persuade the LibDems that they should split from the Tories and there will be an election."

....and vote for who? - I think most people have realised that switching Neo-liberals around into number 10 doesn't change anything. Blair = Brown = Cameron = Thatcher.

This is no democracy when the outright winner every time is the "Don't vote" party.

"The coalition government hopes and believes that the expansion of the private sector can compensate for the negative effect on economic growth and employment of its public spending cuts." Well it's honest - a hope and belief is all they have as they are completely unable to say what mechanisms will deliver the compensating private sector growth. The public sector needs the private sector and visa versa - it is a symbiotic relationship and only a nutter like Osborne would fragment the two.

You are all missing the point. The plan is to force the public sector to off load the services they provide so that these services can be provided by the private sector. And if by magic private sector jobs are created and the size of the public sector decreases. The fact that most of the same people will be reemployed by the “new” private sector companies and that the “companies” aren’t really adding anything new to the economy isn’t the point.

Unless of course I am completely wrong and they are new business opportunities that now one had previously notice……..

This is bad news. Without jobs in the north there will be a flood of economic migrants from the north to the south. This could ruin Hendon! Blimey, there will be a revolution in Hendon after all! Fortunately I have a crack team of ninja monkeys who are also zombies to protect me but I can't say the same for John and Sam. I know John has large savings as he's always going on about rising interest rates to boost the economy (?) but that won't stretch very far in WOTW's brave new world. We need to start building our own cars now! Robert why aren't you reporting this?

On the other hand, I'll just stay in Geneva which has 500 years of peace.

I live here! (Liverpool)

Ten years ago my "deprived community" received a *massive* "community led" regeneration handout - £200 million - about £17,000 for each household.

A quango was set up by shadowy figures despite ferocious local opposition, and marginalised the community. The money was wasted on projects wanted by neither the government nor the people who live here.

Burning public money in deprived areas only makes matters worse. Make the UK a place where real work is not frowned on, and we ordinary people will make it wholesome.

So deal with Bob Diamond, BTLers, private car parking scammers, asset bubbles and all the rest of parasite ripoff Britain, and your perceived problem will go away. Not quickly, but slowly and surely. Meantime, keep up the basic food and shelter handouts.

PS Can't watch videos on my internet connection, and I don't have a TV, so I can't comment on much else.

I am getting pretty sick of the BBC's left wing bias in absolutely every piece it posts. Labour bankrupt the country guys bribing the workshy and the lazy with cushy non-jobs and fat benefit payouts, now it's time for you to face the reality everyone in the private sector has been living with for about 14 months now.

Spot on PacketRat (#20).

At some point it's going to dawn on people that the state has no answers, that economic activity is real people doing things for each other in exchange for money (or another token of exchange), and that state-sponsored artifical activity are simply misallocation of effort with no long term healthy purpose.

I am also from Liverpool, sounds like we both know of what we talk.

#19

Are you here to debate or ridicule?

What is the purpose of your posts?

Oh I get it... like humour, but different.

7. At 11:37am on 15 Sep 2010, newblogger wrote:

I get the impression they know this - they just don't care. Vince Cable and David Willets are more than happy to see PhD Physicists stacking shelves in Tesco!

PhDs will only be told they are over-qualified for shelf-stacking, and then be lambasted by Boy George for aiming for a life as couch potatoes!

"The coalition government hopes and believes that the expansion of the private sector can compensate for the negative effect on economic growth and employment of its public spending cuts."

Why did labour create so many government jobs in the 90s?

Was it because the private sector wasn't doing it, instead shipping the work overseas?

Dear Robert

As a Mancunian I see the issue of Liverpool in hard economic facts. Manchester has developed the private sector and endeavoured to replace the Heroin of handouts with self sustaining buisiness. Liverpool unfortunately has partied on Labour handouts and will now reap the whirlwind. As for the Public sector i spent 20 years in the military watching idle civil servants justify their existence - I joined the private sector lost my secure job and I work harder no pay rise for 3 years but at least I contribute. Your left wing bias unfortunately belies your BBC background - why not report on a success for once and stop looking for your Next Northern Rock scoop currently you are no better than a Murdoch rag

21. At 12:55pm on 15 Sep 2010, ErrrorWayz wrote:

"...now it's time for you to face the reality everyone in the private sector has been living with for about 14 months now."

How petty.

I work in the private sector and I can see where this is headed - total social meltdown.

But you have nothing to worry about, they are non-jobs, right?

Who needs the emergency services anyway...

#11. At 12:16pm on 15 Sep 2010, Averagejoe wrote:
"On the plus side the public sector cuts can only hasten the revolution, right WOTW?"

It will hasten whatever is coming, whether it is evolution or revolution is up to the people.

I have been saying for ages that things are going on behind the scenes with ever increasing numbers committed to taking organised action. Pressure groups have been working within unions and political parties and the agreements/motions at TUC conference aligned with mandates from socialist coalition parties indicate things have moved to an advanced stage.

I know a certain social internet site is frowned upon by the intellectuals and elite but the mood of many anti coalition groups on there is becoming increasingly extreme. Very publicly many of these groups with members numbering hundreds of thousands talk about action/revolution/riots/civil unrest. Are these signs of a subserviant nation rising from its slavish slumber or just words. I hope for all our sakes it's not just words.

14. At 12:29pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:

"All wealth derives from the private sector, the state simply spends some of it."

The public sector fills the gap the private sector won't because it is too short term to see the long term wealth creation.

How much long term wealth has been created in Britain thanks to educated scientists and inventors? - products of the state education system.

If the private sector was charged a market rate by the public sector for providing a healthy and educated workforce - I think you would find there would only be one wealth creator in society and that would be the public sector.

There is no private sector company in existence that could afford the investment in the workforce required to match what is provided by the public sector today.

Therefore the 'cheap deal' that the private sector gets for this is sometimes shown as a surplus - i.e. profit - however it was generated and passed across to the private sector by the public sector in the form of useable labour.

So it appears that the converse is true - all wealth is generated within the public sector, it just appears that the private sector is generating it as it ends up with the surplus.

An analysis which Capitalists cannot understand - they think the educated and healthy workforce just 'happen' as if by magic and without any cost. As labour is the source of their profits - it's essential for the Capitalist to ignore the fact that without a workforce there would be no profit or progress.

6. At 11:20am on 15 Sep 2010, Boilerbill wrote:

I just wonder where this belief comes from. Are we putting money into training?

Why would the public provide training to employees for the private sector? Every one of my uncles had a trade. The employer carried the costs of those apprenticeships, not the government, not the tax payer and not my uncles.

We can't afford welfare, remember? If we can't afford to look after the unemployed properly (it's diminished so much already over the years) then why would anyone think we could afford freebies to the private sector?

Companies and bosses being spongers - dearie me, we can't have that.

23. At 1:05pm on 15 Sep 2010, newblogger wrote:
#19

Are you here to debate or ridicule?

What is the purpose of your posts?

Oh I get it... like humour, but different.



What's the purpose of your post then?
Actually what is the purpose of anyone's post? Do you think Bobby P reads them? Do you think you can start a revolution by posting on a BBC blog? Go and write "Romans go home" on the city walls, that might make you feel better.

19. At 12:53pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

"On the other hand, I'll just stay in Geneva which has 500 years of peace."

...and with that sentence the credibility of your opinion disappears in a puff of white smoke.
The number of times you've stated that there is no revolution aptly demonstrates your sheer terror of such an event.

I wonder why - no real people fear the people's revolution. So what exactly are you?

21. At 12:55pm on 15 Sep 2010, ErrrorWayz wrote:

"I am getting pretty sick of the BBC's left wing bias in absolutely every piece it posts."

Left wing of Hitler perhaps?

"Labour bankrupt the country guys bribing the workshy and the lazy with cushy non-jobs and fat benefit payouts, now it's time for you to face the reality everyone in the private sector has been living with for about 14 months now."

...now are you talking about the jobless, or the bankers, because from where I'm sitting there's only 1 set of workshy scroungers who bankrupted this country and are now living off government funded bonuses.

This,my first comment,is a very general one about the 'cuts' agenda. We have lived with a national debt at least since the eighteenth century and successive governments over the decades have 'added' to it. Currently I understand the national debt stands at some 900 £billion so even if the Coalition gets anywhere close to their target of 150£billion reduction what happens about the debit balance of 750 £billion? The Government's constant refrain about 'the deficit' is at best a bit misleading when (a)there's rather more to do before we balance the books and(b)in context 150 £billions is hardly 'do and die'. Does the IMF etc actually know the size of our debt?? I realise Robert can't answer individual questions of this kind but perhaps he can touch on the matter in a blog sometime or on one of his live commentaries. Do we take heart at all that I am told USA's national debt equals $30000 for every man woman and child whereas ours is the equivalent of £13000 per person?! Why aren't we deemed bankrupt draw a line and start again - ergo no need for cuts!! Never did understand 'high finance'!

The cuts are being used to pay for the bank mess, remember everyone?

If you don't want these cuts then watch The Keiser Report from last night and that will tell you what to campaign for...

The Keiser Report no. 77
https://rt.com/About_Us/Programmes/Keiser_Report/2010-09-14/596575.html

Unfortunately I think the private sector jobs will come about with an announcement of regional minimum wages. You must take a job at £3.00 an hour perhaps. You will only get a part time job. The bus to work will cost £3 each way.......
Poverty continues for ever.

16. At 12:37pm on 15 Sep 2010, writingsonthewall wrote:

"...and vote for who? - I think most people have realised that switching Neo-liberals around into number 10 doesn't change anything. Blair = Brown = Cameron = Thatcher.

This is no democracy when the outright winner every time is the "Don't vote" party."

You would hope that some clarity is forming for anyone paying attention. The democratic process is a mere sideshow. A pantomime, purporting to give us plebs some say. The penny must now be dropping, one would hope. They have brazenly shown their hand over the last few years, with the compliance of a Labour government. Their profit can only lead to misery for others. It's called Capitalism for a reason. Some gains while some loses. Clear as day now.

Voting in another bunch of corporate apologists will not make the least bit of difference. I'm not sure how you go about kick starting a revolution though. As long as you have Sky +, Xbox and 2 for 1 lager offers, why bother. Just maybe if things get bad enough something might spark some movement or other, galvanising the over-mortgaged masses to throw off their blinkers. Let me know if you hear of one.

Western free market democracy has lead itself up a dark passage, with no where left to go. Time for some new thinking.

26. At 1:09pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

Dear Robert

As a Mancunian I see the issue of Liverpool in hard economic facts. Manchester has developed the private sector and endeavoured to replace the Heroin of handouts with self sustaining buisiness. (which are now all bust) Liverpool unfortunately has partied on Labour handouts and will now reap the whirlwind. (unlike the private sector driven manchester which is bursting at the seams with employment)

As for the Public sector i spent 20 years in the military watching idle civil servants justify their existence (so what were you doing - watching them?) - I joined the private sector lost my secure job and I work harder no pay rise for 3 years but at least I contribute. (A great career decision there - you're not really selling it are you) Your left wing bias unfortunately belies your BBC background - why not report on a success for once and stop looking for your Next Northern Rock scoop currently you are no better than a Murdoch rag (sucess? - well point one out then?)

...and no - you can't have Manchester as your success story:

https://menmedia.co.uk/northeastmanchesteradvertiser/news/s/1122724_unemployment_is_soaring

Seems like Mancs have been living on some 'handouts' of their own.

Glass houses, stones and all that. Don't try to settle Manc / Scouse rivalries on here - regionalism is for neanderthals and we all know who has won more titles.

At 1:12pm on 15 Sep 2010, writingsonthewall wrote:

"The public sector fills the gap the private sector won't because it is too short term to see the long term wealth creation.
How much long term wealth has been created in Britain thanks to educated scientists and inventors? - products of the state education system.
If the private sector was charged a market rate by the public sector for providing a healthy and educated workforce - I think you would find there would only be one wealth creator in society and that would be the public sector."

This is heavily misguided; I would thoroughly support charging a commercial rate for the services of the public sector (and not these hideous faux private monopoly corportations set up to imitate privatisation) because they would then direct their effort toward what people wanted.
You want to retrace the wealth creation process to the point where the scientist was taught, but stop there, which is a bit silly as you're overlooking who funded the school and where that money came from.
You also say the private sector doesn't look far enough ahead and you cite education and health. You do realise that the best schools are private, and the first hospitals privately created don't you? Actually the state has a record of getting in late and doing it badly.

If you go far enough back you'll always find that wealth is created by people doing stuff for each other.

31. At 1:20pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

"Actually what is the purpose of anyone's post? Do you think Bobby P reads them?"

....shows how much you know - he's made reference to the fact he does previously.

"Do you think you can start a revolution by posting on a BBC blog?"

Oh you don't think this is all we're doing do you? - we're not restricted by a tiny brain which means we can be doing many things at once.
Everyone who reads this blog regularly will be well informed - the biggest weapon the Capitalist has is ignorance - that's why previously you could claim that 'banks generate wealth' and 'ordinary people are too stupid to understand banking' and get away with it.

Now you can't - because blogs like this make people THINK - and when they think they then realise your claims are unqualified and do not stand up to the simplest of scrutiny. There are also a lot of people who didn't understand where all the money went - and why they're paying for the crisis - but they sure do now.

Knowledge is power - and this blog gives them that power. Lies are brittle and you demonstrate this perfectly too.

"Go and write "Romans go home" on the city walls, that might make you feel better."

You seem to be talking about a revolution from centuries ago - does this demonstrate how 'on the button' you're economic knowledge is too?

Robert.

That was a very weak piece of journalsim. Liverpool's population is in fast and rapid decline along with the city's skill base. That why the private sector is underrepresented. Its happening in every town and city outside the SE.

At 1:15pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:
Why would the public provide training to employees for the private sector? Every one of my uncles had a trade. The employer carried the costs of those apprenticeships, not the government, not the tax payer and not my uncles.
We can't afford welfare, remember? If we can't afford to look after the unemployed properly (it's diminished so much already over the years) then why would anyone think we could afford freebies to the private sector?
Companies and bosses being spongers - dearie me, we can't have that.
------------------------------------
100% agree. I would abolish all business support, all regional advice centres and all that nonsense. As a businessman I neither want nor need any help from the state.
Indeed I really wonder about anyone planning to engage in entrepeneurial activity who thinks that a Civil Servant could possibly be of any use to them. They need to realise that an essential component of success will be the realisation that they are on their own and will stand or fall on their own wits.

31. At 1:20pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

"...what is the purpose of anyone's post?"

Some posts debunk/reinforce what the BBC is reporting.

Why do you go out of your way to belittle them?

What are you afraid of?

Dear oh Dear oh Dear
Has anyone not yet realised?

The last time the Tories came to power, they ran down the NHS and made it ready for a cheap Private Sector buyout. Thankfully, the Labour Party did rescue us all just in time'

So please everybody wake up to what the Tories -despite their claim to having to do drastic housekeeping,are doing.

They will run all our services down-ready for a cheap sell off to Private Sector. It's in their blood- they are all Milton Friedman disciples!.
They believe in SHOCK DOCTRINE ( kind thanks to Naomi Klein for illustrating this so well) - that is, they will exploit the UK public’s disorientation over this shock financial crisis (call it a disaster really) to achieve control for the Private Sector- and they will do it by imposing economic shock therapy.

Never mind a Big Society ... there is a Big Agenda going on here!

22. At 1:04pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:
Spot on PacketRat (#20).
I am also from Liverpool, sounds like we both know of what we talk.

Seems so.

My personal observation of the regeneration debacle was this. The fat cat led public sector, cheered on by the I'm all right Jack bigots, have some weird envy of people suffering hard times, and will use every fair and foul means to ensure that no possible benefit will accrue to the people who live in poor communities.

Bigotry holds the misconception that poor people want handouts. They don't. Poor people want, need and deserve, but are denied, opportunities. Opportunity is increasingly reserved for privilege through the ripoff parasite processes that do not derive from honest toil or fair trade.

Fix that and decent society will result.

Plainly the private sector is unlikely to be able take up all or much of the public sector job losses. However, I haven't heard anyone come up with an alternative to cutting down on the public sector. Why ? Because short of re-taking Kuwait with our 1 aircraft carrier (shared with the French) there isn't a viable alternative. The only issue is (a) how deep and (b) Over what time period. Does anyone have an alternative ?

Obviously the financial meltdown didn't help the last Government's balance sheet - but they fundamentally got us into this mess by spending more than they received over 13 years of Government. Come to think of it they are partly responsible for not 'governing' the financial gamblers of the City.

37. At 1:39pm on 15 Sep 2010, grimandbearit wrote:

"Just maybe if things get bad enough something might spark some movement or other, galvanising the over-mortgaged masses to throw off their blinkers. Let me know if you hear of one. "

Rising commodity prices caused by wealth pouring out of Treasuries and the Stock Market into the next bubble. Rising food prices making sustinence from wages impossible (forced out of work) coupled with a declining housing market (the source of many people's 'wealth') throwing millions into negative equity before the forced BoE rate rise.

You see that's the problem with fantasy, it's great while it lasts but eventually it must end....and usually badly.

Dear Writing on the Wall (Resposne to comment 38)

As ever with the left wing apparatchiks the whole story has not been read there is good news to and this area of Manchester known as an area of deprivation overall 5.5% unemployment in Manchester is below the National Average. I am a Mancunian thankyou for compliment but from Cheshire and have no interest in football whatsoever.

In the bigger picture unions such as Bob Crows seek to damage the economy yet further and make the General Publics life awkward for their own ends. That is a function of giving the uneducated and bitter power.

Also to dispute the regionalism Bristol is also doing well a Port City like Liverpool please accept Liverpool still lives in the 70s and no amount of glossy shopping Malls will improve the situation. Give them a chance spend money developing real jobs in manufacturing and the creation of wealth not the spending of it

Best Regards

42. At 1:52pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:
At 1:15pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:
Why would the public provide training to employees for the private sector?
------------------------------------
100% agree. I would abolish all business support ... intrepreneurial ... will stand or fall on their own wits.

Dynamite!

Education is great. "Training" is for dogs and circus animals. Public sector training of "xyz operatives" is commoditisation of labour, creates a surplus, and market forces subsequently impoverish the employees. It's back door welfare for businesses that buy into the public sector mentality.

39. At 1:47pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:

"This is heavily misguided; I would thoroughly support charging a commercial rate for the services of the public sector (and not these hideous faux private monopoly corportations set up to imitate privatisation) because they would then direct their effort toward what people wanted."

...but is what the people want - the same as what is good for the people? At the moment most people think that low interest rates and a return to credit fueled shopping booms is in their interests. However the long term picture is that this will be very bad for the people as the realisation of such action is revealed through increased import costs and further asset devaluation.

"You want to retrace the wealth creation process to the point where the scientist was taught, but stop there, which is a bit silly as you're overlooking who funded the school and where that money came from."

The last time I looked the banks lend money to the public sector so they can build - it's not funded by taxation. Taxation is barely covering the cost of building roads - let alone schools and hospitals - didn't you know what PFI was? That is why the public debt has been growing year on year through successive Governments (and not just the last one as some claim).

The private sector is underpaying for it's services provided by the public sector - that is why there is growing debt. If the private sector had to pay the going rate - there would be no profit in private enterprise. Just think about the cost of producing 1 scientist, from birth (at the public hospital) through public education, into university and into work. They're demonstrating right now the true cost of education by lumbering the student with the bill - I'd like to see which private company would be happy to take that on their books.

"You also say the private sector doesn't look far enough ahead and you cite education and health. You do realise that the best schools are private, and the first hospitals privately created don't you?"

Best schools are private? - well that's a laugh. You mean all those educated politicians who came from privately educated backgrounds who currently drive our country into a wall? - or do you mean the privately educated bankers who have also created catatstrophe through their misunderstanding of the most basic concepts around wealth and risk?

Don't confuse a public sector failure in education with a private sector which creams off the best and then claims 'creation' - that's a bankers trick.

What about security - how (or rather why) would the private sector provide a working police force? - how would it provide any emergency service? What about local services - what interest does the private sector have in keeping the streets clean?
On the face of it none, that's what they did in victorian times - and that's why they had their workforce dying from TB, scurvy and other such niceities.

"Actually the state has a record of getting in late and doing it badly."

Really? - well I must remind myself of that the next time I'm queueing at the bank to get my money out before it collapses. The reason the public sector 'arrives late' is because it's usually bailing out some failed part of the private sector - rather than taking ownership from the start (as it should do).

"If you go far enough back you'll always find that wealth is created by people doing stuff for each other."

The wealth is created by the doing - not by the 'for each other' - this is the base assumption which leads you to believe the private sector is the only source of wealth generation.

There is no value in exchange, the only value that is held is within action (labour) or product (resources) - neither of which are provided by the private sector.

If this were true then we could simple exchange our way to recovery - which of course we can't. The only way to produce the wealth which is missing from our economy is for the workforce to produce more for less in exchange. The resources are finite.

12. At 12:22pm on 15 Sep 2010, SleepyDormouse

Protest is part of the democratic process.

The US protestors take along drums etc and they sing. They sing 'This is what democracy sounds like'


Be careful. You never know what to believe...

Now what is so awful, so destructive about citizens walking along the street singing?

Imagine, the Vietnam war would still be running if the kids didn't get out on the streets, the Jim Crow laws would still be alive and well if people didn't demonstrate.

I mean cops, dressed like something out of star wars!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvs3GkAQrmQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCrkWFSc-jQ

42. At 1:52pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:

"100% agree. I would abolish all business support, all regional advice centres and all that nonsense. As a businessman I neither want nor need any help from the state."

...but you cannot survive without the support!

Tell me, how will you business stop the water company tripling it's cost of water supply? - there's no Government ombudsmand to protect you and you don't have much of a choice. Maybe you'll invest in a water purification system at work to get around it.

How will you investigate and solve the burgulary you suffered last week / month without a publicly provided police force? Have you got the time to spare?

How will you put out a fire at your factory? - do you have all the equipment? - or will you have to rely on a private fire service? - and what do you do when they demand triple pay to put it out whilst your building burns?

What will you do when you look for a replacement for 'old jack' who died last week of a curable disease because he couldn't afford to pay for treatment - only to find that the list of candidates are either too stupid or too old to be reliable enough - will you take on Jack's work yourself?

You see despite you convincing yourself that your business is an independent island which can operate without state assistance - it isn't I'm afraid. Your business wouldn't survive without state assistance - and even if it could, it would be consumed with providing the assistance currently provided by the state rather than actually producing what you intended it to produce!

You could get away with it in past times, because you didn't really need an educated workforce to work in factories - now we're in a world where the only exports the UK has are high value technology - which is a result of our investment in state sponsored education. This is the only thing which keeps us ahead of the millions of foreigners who can do the same manual work as us - only for less.

45. At 2:08pm on 15 Sep 2010, PacketRat wrote:

"Bigotry holds the misconception that poor people want handouts. They don't. Poor people want, need and deserve, but are denied, opportunities. Opportunity is increasingly reserved for privilege through the ripoff parasite processes that do not derive from honest toil or fair trade.

Fix that and decent society will result."

That is true - but that is what cannot be fixed in a unevenly balanced society. We can't all be kings (it's a fact) so as Capitalism dictates there must be winners and there must be losers.

As the winners get bigger (with their multi-million pound bonuses) the losers get bigger (in number, because you can't go below 0)

If everyone in Toxteth were given the same opportunities as the parasites - then what would all the useless bankers do? This is the basis of Capitalism - unfairness and disparity must prevail.

34.At 1:25pm on 15 Sep 2010, john roberts wrote:

“Why aren't we deemed bankrupt draw a line and start again - ergo no need for cuts!! Never did understand 'high finance'!”

John, welcome to this blog. Hope you stay and contribute. Other bloggers here will wince at what I am to write, but just to give you my view. The pound is called a fiat currency, as is the US dollar, AUS$ and many others. They are all issued by a sovereign government which demands payment of their taxes in dollars and no other currency. The countries all have freely floating exchange rates. Under these conditions there is actually no need for the UK to go bankrupt. The government can always pay its debts where they are denominated in £s. Be aware that lots of nasty things can happen to the economy, but being bankrupt should not be one of them. [by bankrupt – do you include default?].

I believe mainstream economic theory [used by our dear leaders] is actually wrong. It is being used to justify poor decisions that will produce economic results which are opposite to those we want. It isn't just me saying this. Look for modern monetary theory MMT, on the web. Serious academics write about this; the main contributor is Professor William Mitchell in his blog at
https://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

I have problems with some parts of what he writes; could be me and my lack of understanding and background in economics.

Good luck

46. At 2:12pm on 15 Sep 2010, Jules Finstock wrote:

"Does anyone have an alternative ?"

Yes but they lead to the same result - the entire west will need to become poorer.

Understand where the warnings of social unrest are coming from now?

I fail to see where jobs in the private sector are going to come from. A lot of people who work in the public sector are either classed as clerical or administrative and earn less than 25k a year, I can't see them having the skills that the private sector needs, well not in High Tech or manufacturing. Also lets face it the private sector is laying off people as well as worries about future orders and costs continue, therefore you have more people chasing fewer jobs. A mate of mine who's a surveyor got laid off and when he went to sign on all they could recommend was that he applied for driving and portering jobs, they just weren't geared up to help people like him. Like I've said before some supermarkets and care homes could end up with some really well qualified people working for them at the lower end of the organisation as no doubt the Condems will put pressure on job seekers to basically accept what they're offered or have what little money they get cut even further. I had a look at the local papers' job section and there's not much and it's pretty much all minimum wage. I'm still waiting for any politician to openly blame the banks for this crisis or to criticise those employed by them who get a massive bonus or any private sector boss who strikes it rich. Lets face it we all know the banks and big business run this country and most others even though politicians make out they don't. It's getting to the stage where there is a serious them and us divide both socially,economically and geographically and you have to wonder if the govt. is actually bothered about it. I just laugh when a politician who's lost his seat tries to make out he's on the dole and suffering as well and he can identify with the unemployed, don't think you can pal. As for the big society, what happens if no one's interested or volunteers, what then? Is there a plan B?

20. At 12:54pm on 15 Sep 2010, PacketRat

Same here.

31. At 1:20pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

" Go and write "Romans go home" on the city walls, that might make you feel better."

Actually it was "Romani ite domum"
Hell of an accidental revolutionary was Brian

42.At 1:52pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:
“I would abolish all business support, all regional advice centres and all that nonsense.”
* * *
Do that and many areas will have no jobs at all and will be depopulated by the movement of people away to areas where there is employment. Companies from other countries would locate elsewhere. They factor all the support they are offered into their decision where to locate. No support – won't come to UK – no jobs. UK shuts down.

So with respect, I don't believe the statement to be true or workable – sorry.

#48. At 2:26pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

"In the bigger picture unions such as Bob Crows seek to damage the economy yet further and make the General Publics life awkward for their own ends."

Yep, that's the whole point.


"That is a function of giving the uneducated and bitter power."


I think we've reached a "Let them eat cake" moment.

18. At 12:51pm on 15 Sep 2010, KillerKally wrote:
You are all missing the point. The plan is to force the public sector to off load the services they provide so that these services can be provided by the private sector.

Private health - nearly there all ready with all those suppliers...ie. out-of-hours GP, etc
Private salary insurance to replace state sick/disability benefit.. nearly there...
Private unemployment insurance to replace state unemployment benefits... nearly there
Private schools... Gove!
Private security...?
Private armies (do we have our own version of Blackwater/Xe? dunno
Do our soldiers get Mcd's instead of rations in Afghanistan?)
Private elderly care... nearly there
Private Tax man?
Museums - ours was sold off to a 'private management company' under labour... nearly there
Private companies providing school meals... done
Private prisons...we've got them too

48. At 2:26pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

"As ever with the left wing apparatchiks the whole story has not been read there is good news to and this area of Manchester known as an area of deprivation overall 5.5% unemployment in Manchester is below the National Average."

...as you say there are 2 sides to every story - so how many financial firms went bust in Manchester in 2007 and what unemployment did this create? Seems you have an 'average' unemployment rate and yet Manchester hasn't (yet) seen suffering in it's well emplyed sectors.

"In the bigger picture unions such as Bob Crows seek to damage the economy yet further and make the General Publics life awkward for their own ends. That is a function of giving the uneducated and bitter power."

Oh really - why complain about the withdrawl through strikes in public services you claim you don't use or need?

"Also to dispute the regionalism Bristol is also doing well a Port City"

..that's not the Bristol I visited 4 weeks ago. Maybe you've just lowered your 'doing well' to the point of 'still there = doing well'

"like Liverpool please accept Liverpool still lives in the 70s and no amount of glossy shopping Malls will improve the situation. Give them a chance spend money developing real jobs in manufacturing and the creation of wealth not the spending of it"

Manufacturing? - for who? - and for what? - at a lower cost than the Chinese?

I see - want to turn Liverpool back into a slave port do we - that's the only way you'll make manufacturing competetive in this country again.

26. At 1:09pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

You need to think before you type.

https://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9433/

I think the 'settler' for the public / private debate is the example the US provide.

They have the smallest public sector - possiby worldwide - compared to the size of their public sector. In the Capitalists world this should mean the US are best placed to re-ignite growth - for the belief is that the private sector generate the wealth - ergo, a large private sector will ensure a fast 'bounceback'.

....now go and do some reading on that US recovery - seems that the worshiping of the private sector is going to cost them as they have no way of stimulating aggregate demand (which is why Obama's trying to create a public sector with his medicare idea)

You see the cost of not having a public sector was aptly demonstrated in the great depression. Without control - i.e. with everything private - the Government is helpless and cannot prevent the long, slow and painful asset devaluation which occurs in crisis after the bubbles burst.

Even if you discard the purpose of the public sector - it's certainly true at the very least it protects us from the ravages of failing Capitalism - even if you have convinced yourself that you don't use any of it.

53. At 2:57pm on 15 Sep 2010, writingsonthewall wrote:

Well Michael Moore in the US is demanding a draft but only if the rich and the media people have to send their kids first!

And the Finnish give road traffic offences fines as a percentage of the offenders income.
The speeding fine paid by the head of Nokia sounded like a baby spivs bonus https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm

Not perfect but you take the levelling opportunities where you find them...

No party won the mandate to take power and this coalition would be laughable if not deadly serious in the damage it is creating.The TUC has the right action by organised strikes and civil disobedience.Cameron and Osbourne are smirking at Clegg and his pathetic party supporting their claim to govern..there is no such party as Lib-Dems they are 'Lap-Dogs 'to keep the CON-servatives in power by deserting their own grassroot supporters with Cleggy orgasmistic and deluded by the trappings of power with no effect to contribute a say in reality..sad man!All election promises are being discarded and broken by the second by these despicable so-called politicians mis-ruling the country.Let the revolution begin..it will make the French Revolution seem like a party or proms in the park.Cameron's hairline is disappearing faster than support for the Lib-Dems that were!

#50, writingsonthewall: "The only way to produce the wealth which is missing from our economy is for the workforce to produce more for less in exchange. The resources are finite."

Sad, but true. Though, unfortunately, not much of a rallying call :o)

It's getting nasty. This is bad. Very bad.

Real IRA threatens attacks on banks
https://english.aljazeera.net//news/europe/2010/09/2010915112756408739.html

Is this the excuse the government needs to clamp down on dissent, or is it real?

26. At 1:09pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

> Manchester has developed the private sector and endeavoured
> to replace the Heroin of handouts with self sustaining buisiness.

This story is about Liverpool, not Manchester, so please try to be helpful, instead of squabbling about the relative merits of Moss Side versus Toxteth - they are both dumps!

51. At 2:41pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:

---------------------------

Yes, protest by all means, but don't use all means to protest. Once the protest becomes unlawful, you've lost no matter how right you are and no matter how good your position morally and ethically.

The main point for the contribution is that this government has a ready made fault line that can be exploited, but it would take time to reap any benefit. The fault line is the coalition. Continue as they are and the libdems will disappear into history. They need to be allowed to reverse their conservative stance by breaking with the Tories, ditching Clegg and his cohorts and having a total re-think [by tomorrow please - no only joking, end of the week will do].

The question was asked of me earlier, 'who would we vote for?' Condems are out so it only leaves Labour. OK, I know that they won't have been that different, but they might have been less of a bull in a china shop!

I still want to see proper sane economics applied to the running of this country. It won't be all of MMT, but at least based on it. But this line will turn many other bloggers off.

Since 2002 Mr Brown increased Public spending by 37% (after adjusting for inflation). He did so by allowing the debt to rise from £316 billion to £661 billion (estimate for 2010). So a 25% reduction now does not even take us back to the expenditure levels in 2002. Now I do not recall that we had no emergency services etc etc in 2002. In fact I find it hard to think of what public services actually improved dramatically over the period. It always seems that increased spending equates to little real improvement but decrease means front line jobs go. May be the unions would be better focused on that point, working with the coalition on how costs could be reduced whilst the majority of the work force (and those at the front line) continue in employment.

I'd like to point out that our armed forces are included in the public sector, and to support WOTW who may have already pointed this out.

It's alright for some in the private sector to suggest they need nothing from the other sector, but when push comes to shove who protects their business?
Are they going to fund their own armed forces when the next threat of invasion comes along.

48. At 2:26pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

"That is a function of giving the uneducated and bitter power.


We are all educated Stephen. Attending school is a legal requirement. Hadn't you noticed?

Or do you mean the unemployed? Like the university scientists who are planning a march on Downing Street, maybe.

All we want is their academic research jobs so we can figure out what is wrong with you, your kids, your granny or anythin else so we can treat it! You know, things like cancer, diabetes, parasites, viruses, delusional mental illnesses..., environment, clean power, healthy food, not power.

However if taking power kept it out of the hands of the unthinking then so be it. Anything to avoid the nightmare of Salem all over again!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Witch_Trials

We're all Enlightened now or did your teachers fail you?

60. At 3:09pm on 15 Sep 2010, NorthSeaHalibut wrote:

"I think we've reached a "Let them eat cake" moment."

Already? - I wasn't expecting that until next year.

I wonder though, are these really clones of Antoinette - or are they in fact very sad sympathisers. I mean surely nobody who is so aloof of the crisis spend their time on this blog - surely they should be sunning themselves on a yacht in Monaco?

That's what's really sad about this whole thing, the real 'Antoinettes' don't need to fight their own battles, they can rely on their misguided followers to do it for them.

Well I ask those followers - "Where is your recovery"?...because the last time I looked we're not recovering - at best we're bumbling along the bottom - and it's been nearly 3 years since we saw the first signs of crisis.

..and the claim is Bob Crow is uneducated! At least he knows when he's about to get screwed over - I am no longer surprised that rogue traders is always on TV - there's enough suckers in this country to keep every dodgy builder in business for centuries - are we surprised we attract so many migrants with such a market on offer?

#48, Stephen wrote: "That is a function of giving the uneducated and bitter power."

Yes, this as an inherent failing of democracy. A "one-degree: one-vote" system would obviously be preferrable, coupled with a "cheerfulness-in-adversity" test (renewable every five years, maybe?).

writingonthewall;

So scientists didn't exist before state education?

Then who on Earth invented all the science that they teach at state schools?

Business pays the going rate because the scientist won't swap his labour for less.

You keep getting the chicken and egg the wrong way round; stuff happens (hospitals, schools, etc) then the state grabs it. If you want to make things better for people then better to allow them to do more capitalist things by stopping the state-backed monopolies on currency, land, etc. and letting peopel decide their priorities through trade.

Oh, and all wealth creation IS is people swapping stuff. You have money, I have the skill to cut your hair. I swap my time giving you a haircut for some money. We are both wealthier because we both walk off feeling better than we started because we both valued the thing we got more than the thing we gave.

That is wealth creation.

There is a report from the UN Conference on Trade and Development at
https://www.unctad.org/Templates/webflyer.asp?docid=13740&intItemID=2068&lang=1&mode=downloads
You may be interested...

The final paragraph of the overview reads:
“….it is important that the macroeconomic policy framework be strengthened to promote sustainable growth and employment creation in both developed and developing countries. Past experience and theoretical considerations suggest that a sustainable growth strategy requires a greater reliance on domestic demand than has been the case in many countries over the past 30 years. In such a strategy, job creation for absorbing surplus labour would result from a virtuous circle of high investment in fixed capital leading to faster productivity growth with corresponding wage increases that enable a steady expansion of domestic demand. Especially for developing countries, this may call for a rethinking of the paradigm of export-led development based on keeping labour costs low.”

So George Osborne is doing What? Going the wrong way!

OK, I'm largely preaching to the converted, but I thought you might be interested...

The worm has turned.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8004488/Bank-of-England-governor-Mervyn-King-attacks-bank-bonuses-and-excessive-pay.html

They won't let Merv back in the BoE now - he'll have to run the bank from Manchester!

If you ran your finances like the previous government ran the countries finances what would happen?

Yes that's right you would lose everything! So count your lucky stars these cuts are being made now before the whole country falls down like a deck of cards!

"I still want to see proper sane economics applied to the running of this country. It won't be all of MMT, but at least based on it. But this line will turn many other bloggers off."
Its all been said before. We need to start with wholesale monetary reform, and the end of the fractional reserve banking system in order to get rid of our debt based monetary system. The problem and the solution have clearly identified. The only thing stopping change is vested interests, and the closely aligned political parties.

59. At 3:06pm on 15 Sep 2010, SleepyDormouse wrote:
42.At 1:52pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:
“I would abolish all business support, all regional advice centres and all that nonsense.”
* * *
Companies from other countries would locate elsewhere ... won't come to UK – no jobs. UK shuts down ... So with respect, I don't believe the statement to be true or workable – sorry.

Inward investment has an insidious long term negative effect. Buying jobs for people robs a place of vigour and innovation, and embeds social and economic inequality. The best we can do for Liverpool is hobble the parasites locally and nationally, level the playing field and leave the people of Liverpool to get on with the job. Of course it will take time. There isn't a quick fix to replace hard work and ingenuity.

70. At 3:55pm on 15 Sep 2010, SleepyDormouse wrote:

What law is that you think everyone will break? Peaceful protest is never wrong.

Did Rosa Parks become a loser?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

And the photographers of UK are losing when they take a snap are they?
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7351252.stm

You've been watching too much TV with reporters desperate to see a window smashed. Handy of the Toronto cops to do it for them, wasn't it... (see earlier links)

For years I watched that happening on the TV. Never for a moment did I think police officers would be involved. But from the very beginning I remembered my secondary school history teacher explaining the term 'agent provocateur'.

So my question always was - how much did those bankers pay some kids to do that for the cameras? Did they?

It always amazed me to never here a well-paid, supposedly educated reporter ask that same question, so maybe they bunked off history class at the private school or something...

43. At 1:58pm on 15 Sep 2010, newblogger wrote:
31. At 1:20pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

"...what is the purpose of anyone's post?"

Some posts debunk/reinforce what the BBC is reporting.

Why do you go out of your way to belittle them?

What are you afraid of?



I'm afraid of nothing and nobody because I have ninja monkeys who are also...never mind.

73. At 3:59pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:

We are all educated Stephen. Attending school is a legal requirement. Hadn't you noticed?

Attending school is no guarantee of education I agree that a rephrase 'Unthinking and Bitter' would be better and also I care little for the Bankers and Financiers that live off the hard work of us all. I want to see the UK be a fairer country where hard work and endeavour are respected not celebrity and consumption. I accept Bob Crowe stand up for what he belives in an admirable trait but does he not realise the damage he does to you and me not the bankers or financiers who dont use public transport as a habit.

If you knew your French History accrately you would no the let them eat cake was a paraphrase - Bread came in Cakes

As usual the left bends history -

72. At 3:57pm on 15 Sep 2010, creditunionhero

Military?

Oh, they've all but privitised that in the US! Jeremy Scahill is the investigative reporter who writes all about that.

I heard something like 40% of US taxes go on that, and a huge chunk gets farmed out to the private suppliers!

40. At 1:50pm on 15 Sep 2010, writingsonthewall wrote:
31. At 1:20pm on 15 Sep 2010, Lindsay_from_Hendon wrote:

"Actually what is the purpose of anyone's post? Do you think Bobby P reads them?"

....shows how much you know - he's made reference to the fact he does previously.

"Do you think you can start a revolution by posting on a BBC blog?"

Oh you don't think this is all we're doing do you? - we're not restricted by a tiny brain which means we can be doing many things at once.


That doesn't follow. I suggest that posting on this blog will not start a revolution. Your reply is that you are doing other things (teaching the world to sing, building a car from mushrooms etc.) but that still doesn't mean posting on this blog will start a revolution.

76. At 4:16pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:

Hair dressers as wealth creators? Righto.
You're going on the 'B' arc then. With the phone sanitizers, bankers and estate agents.

We'll see you when we get there. Honest.

73. At 3:59pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:

> Attending school is a legal requirement.

Sorry to be a nuisance, but attending school is not a legal requirement. Parents are responsible for the education of their children, either by regular attendance at school or otherwise.

Plenty of people choose "otherwise", because the schools have a lot of bad mannered children, who grow up to to be bankers and other sorts of strange, anti-social wotwots.

"Otherwise" trumps both state and private schools, because I am more highly qualified than most teachers, and my wife is just as highly qualified and better motivated.

I think it's a bit weird to send kids to school nowadays. The bankers who caused this chaos (according to Merv) presumably went to a school of some kind, and look at the state of them!

Pals of mine, working at a private sector consultancy but engaged largely on public sector projects have just been slapped with a 10% pay cut and a company-wide consultation. So going back to the subject of the original blog, no, private sector growth is unlikely to compensate for these cuts. The pain will be shared far and wide.

68. copperDolomite:

I guess that what happens when you help to ruin the world's economy. You make enemies. Bankers are making enemies of just about everyone.

They've only got themselves to blame.

It is obvious to me that the private sector creates the wealth which leads to the taxes that fund the public sector. If the government did not collect taxes, it would not have any money to spend on public services.

The reason some small countries (in Africa for example) have a small (or non-existant) public sector is because the private sector does not create the wealth to fund it!

75. At 4:08pm on 15 Sep 2010, vegetable_grower

ha ha ha

Most of us in this lab has at least two (there are a few working towards the second before they face the dole) and a few of us have three. I've even have one colloeague who has four, expat but still a UK voter! And not one of us are the kind of people Stephen would ever imagine capable of ever being worthy...

Now four votes under AV, let's see...

Oh, would Stephen object, perhaps to those awarded honorary degrees using their full allocation of 1 degree = 1 vote?

Harold Pinter had about 20 honorary degrees and Seamus Heaney has a clutch of them.

Stephen, he'll improve with time.
Like cheese.

There are some who give the impression that the whole of the public sector is about to be thrown onto tne scrap heap.

I have no figures at hand but I'll bet that over the next five years the natural wastage and early retirements will be more than enough to cover most of the cuts needed.

The last attempt at privatising local services gave the contract to ex-employees who formed their own company. I can see this happening again with the creation of co-operatives.

There is no point in continually moaning about the inevitable. Those clever creative thinkers should come up with some realistic alternatives.

No point in revolting against something unless you know you already have something better to put in its place.

78. At 4:42pm on 15 Sep 2010, writingsonthewall wrote:
They won't let Merv back in the BoE now - he'll have to run the bank from Manchester!

That's so funny!

Or join the demonstrators! wonder if he's kept up with paying the union dues!

82. At 4:50pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:

70. At 3:55pm on 15 Sep 2010, SleepyDormouse wrote:
CD asked "What law is that you think everyone will break? Peaceful protest is never wrong."

---------------

Exactly my point! Peaceful protest OK; but it can get out of hand; so I'm just saying 'don't let it escalate to something else'

84. At 4:51pm on 15 Sep 2010, Stephen wrote:

Attending school is no guarantee of education I agree

Good.

My school in one of the toughest, poorest parts of the EU (well that's how the newspapers regularly labelled my little part of the world), gave me enough education to think of more than myself and more than just how to get to work under my own steam!

I mean walking, I taught myself that one! Shoe laces? That was my brother who educated me in the ways of that. Took a while, but I was determined to be a big girl, all capable and independent before I was anywhere near a school classroom. The classroom is for far more important purposes.

Leaf. Own book?

76. At 4:16pm on 15 Sep 2010, bogbrush wrote:

"Oh, and all wealth creation IS is people swapping stuff. You have money, I have the skill to cut your hair. I swap my time giving you a haircut for some money. We are both wealthier because we both walk off feeling better than we started because we both valued the thing we got more than the thing we gave.

That is wealth creation."

Thanks for that explanation.

So, when mortgage brokers went to all those nice people in Detroit, and told them that they could all have nice houses worth $700,000 at 2% pa (rising to 8% in a year after the first year in small print), but they didn't have to worry about that as they were really smart even though they only worked in a fast-food shop, that was wealth creation as the purchaser felt good? How about when the pusher provides 10 year olds with 'H'. Both feel good, and wealth is created? Or how about when the broker passes on the debt to a dice-and-slicer so he can offload it as a MBS etc to some trusting investor in Thailand who believes some Unit Trusts will secure his kids' education or his retirement? Wealth creation is good?. You've bought into all this have you?

Or are you a 'mortgage broker'?

88. At 5:06pm on 15 Sep 2010, Jacques Cartier wrote:

In my book, 'otherwise' counts as school too (doesn't have to be a building built for the purpose and staffed by teachers). It's just not the standard school most of us went to. Isn't that how the law about schooling works - so long as you are 'schooled', ie educated?

creditunionhero:

Not sure we're worth invading anymore anyway. Besides, they don't make despots like they used to, so nobody's got the cojones for it...

#92. At 5:21pm on 15 Sep 2010, copperDolomite wrote:

"75. At 4:08pm on 15 Sep 2010, vegetable_grower

ha ha ha"

Copper, nice that you can tell I wasn't being serious :o) Unlike WOTW who has replied to it on a different blog and didn't even recognise it for the satire it was. Still, he has a lot to deal with and maybe doesn't have the time to figure out who might be on his side.