Does Hazel hold Everton's purse strings?

Good article for once Phil.

My view is that we need a new stadium to attract better players and further futire investment.

If we had the investment now, we wouldn't need Tesco; but we don't, simple. Therefore, we have to bite the bullit and accept Tesco's help and move to Kirby. Anyone who opposes the move is, in my mind, simply unrealistic.

A nice balanced blog there Phil, the ground is an issue which has been discussed in depth, and you've covered the main issues. I think the fans are mostly annoyed and nervous about the fact we feel we're not privy to all the information, which is fair enough, we'd just like to know what is happening to the club we love.

Its the same with Moyes, we just want to see his name on the dotted line. His signature is as important as any player. I think the recent acquisition of Steve Round was an important one as it looks as though Moyes is still planning for the long term, and thats good to see. It doesn't look as though he thinks its all about to fall apart, and thats reassuring!

With regards to players, again, its Silly Season, and the only player really mentioned has been Aaron Ramsey, the rest of it has been guessing games. I'm sure Moyes has said what he wants. Even if the Ground is not impacting financially, i think the amount of time being spent on the ground at the moment could be impacting on the amount of time spent trying to bring players in.

We just want some solid proof, we're getting pretty nervous and reassurance only goes so far.

Liverpool City Council are very shortsighted. EFC will endure for as long as football is played professionally in the UK. This decision if for the next 100 years.
We all know this and for Liverpool council to find parkland for LFC and not put forward a suitable site for Everton is beyond belief.
I mean no disrespect to the Kirkby plans when I say once the decision is taken to move, we will never return. It is important to stay in the city, to be a part of its fabric and richness of its daily life, the buzz and the banter if only for our next generation of supporters. I also mean no disrespect to Bill Kenwright either who is a true Blue.

I might add that the self perpetuating cartel of the Chamions league is creating such problems for some of England's finest, historic clubs, Villa, Spurs and all the great clubs, that for once I may agree with Platini on a more equitable distribution of revenue in Euro money as well as the Prem.
I trust Ms Blears takes a short but intense course on what it means to be an Evertonian.

Decent article Phil!

Mr McNulty, this is obviously an issue which have an interest and a passion for. Therefore, it's no surprise that this is probably one of the finest and most interesting blogs or articles that you've written. I am sure that the sports editor influences your choice of topic. Blogs that you've written on the likes of Scolari and Cristiano Ronaldo during this transfer silly season have been uninformative and pointless. At last, it's excellent to read a well-written and thought-provoking article concerning a club that isn't one of the established top four- at the moment anyway. Perhaps your bosses should take note.

The ground situation needs to be clarified and everton were well aware of te planning process. There is need for hazel to get involved as the local council agreed with the planning on a majority of 20:1.
There is no question that liverpool city council is the biggets problem. They have been a thorn in the side of any everton development. Even now they try to impose their position on a development outside their area. They have supported the development of a new stadium within stanley park, but only mentioned the re-development of the goodison site.
Everton football club needs a new stadium, the memories of goodison will live forever. I am an Evertonian, iwant them to play and be succesful.
Without this development and opportunity offered by a wealthy Tesco, Bootle born benefactor Everton will remain outside the tpo four, and without a Celtic bound manager.

Same old Everton, nothing is ever done as it should be. There always has to be drama.

Bill kenwright has done so much for Everton and as its been said many, many times he bleeds blue and has put more money into the club than is expected, i applaud his efforts.

BUT, i totally disagree with this whole new stadium. As a season ticket holder, i know of not 1 person i have ever spoken to who said that they voted yes to Kirkby. But to be totally honest, living in Birkenhead i dont really care which part of Merseyside Everton play at.

Its not like we will be moving to Milton Keynes, so the location is not a BIG sticking point for me. I would prefer somewhere in the city, if only to stop all the flak from the kopites.

But, no, the club says the City doesnt have ANYWHERE to build a stadium. Now my job used to involve traveling all over Liverpool and i lost count on the number of HUGE open spaces i saw, many big enough for 2 Stadiums.

None of this makes sense, why are the club pushing so hard for Tesco Park, yes it saves us money, but it also devalues the Stadium having a tesco right next to it and it will be so much fun on match day with all the Mums and Nans going shopping being met with 40,000-50,000 half drunk Everton fans.

I suppose tho, at the end of the day we need to move, i love Goodison, but unless we move we will be left behind even more than we are now. So this is a minor issue at the moment.

Clearly the big issues, as you pointed out is getting Moyes to sign on the dotted line and the pathetic lack of signings, which must be going hand in hand.

From what i can see we have 4 maybe 5 Midfielders at the club, we sold McFadden in January and whilst he wasnt the greatest, he sometimes gave us a game and scored some important goals, we then let Carsley go, possibly it was his choice, but im SURE he could have been made to stay if we tried.

Carlsey has been the most underrated player for many years and his loss will be immense, we will need 2 players to fill his void, due to the effort and the injury free time he gave us

But with just under a month to go, we havent made 1 signing and all i see is players being linked away from the club with the likes of AJ and Arteta.

My first point was to praise Kenwright, but i feel now is the time to kick us on, hes done excellent with keeping our debt in check, but i feel if we dont spend and dont spend big on some BIG names we will get left behind this season. We need about 4-5 Top drawer players, which will cost about 40m-50m, a lot of money i know, but how much did we get for finishing 5th last season, how much did we get from SKy and Sentana? Must have been in total roughly 40m-50m? no? Surely we will again recieve about 30m from sky this season?

I say we need 4-5 players, this is mostly to up the numbers of a very, very light squad, Cahill, Vaughan and Arteta are amazing players, but have sadly suffered a lot of injurys recently, so they cant be relied upon to be fit. And we struggle without Cahill and Areta, add this to Carsleys loss and you have the basis of a Home loss to Stoke( NO OFFENCE, HONEST ).

So come on Bill, im not asking you to spend anymore of your own money, im asking you to spend OUR money, the money the club earned from a top 5 finish, the money we as fans earned from going to matches on a Sunday.

Scrap the pointless stadium for now, we can pay for that with the Champions League revenue we would earn, but unless we start buying some players, its gonna be a long hard season and we will be lucky to get a top half finish.

In Moyes we trust.

A fantastic article. Great read!

I am a LFC fan in peace. The stanley Park development was by no means easy for u to push through, and for EFC, it has been even worst. Liverpool council seem to make everything difficult in these matters. I sincerely feel sorry for you at this point.

For you to push on now a new stadium is a must. The unfortunate thing is that it may well have to be outside of the so called 'heart-land' and funded by Tesco. But I dont think you have any choice, another decade spent at Goodison Park will result anything but moving up the table, and dare I say surpassing us!

Bite the bullet and make the move, in 10 years time you wont look back. At least the finances of your stadium are held together by a united front, and not a dived pair of investors looking for a return as is the case with us.

And one final point, The most important signing for you guys this summer is Moyes, top draw manager, get his deal done!

I feel this debate is a little redundant as `our`opourtunity to request information and influance the ground move decision had pass when the yes vote was returned in the ground move ballot.
For or against the move, the fact is that we as fans should just accept it now as democracey has decided the outcome and so we should concentrate our efforts in backing the manager in whom I am sure their is no differance of opinion.
The reality of the situation is thet we are a relatively poor club with little financial clout. Teams well below us in the league can compete at higher lavels financialy than we can. We must therefore accept that we can not move without a significant investment and to take a differant slant on things, What better company to do business with than one of the most succesful businesses in europe? The bitter pill for me to swallow as an Evortonian is that we have never recieved a great level of support from liverpool council. We requested Stanley Park in the 70's but where rebuffed. There was no extra mile taken in trying to push forward the kings dock project. Because of the need for retail space for us to increase our revenue, the building of liverpool one has effectively meant that our needs can not be accomodated within the city boundary, bring in Kirkby.
Whilst I would in no way suggest that Kirkby is not part of Merseyside, the sad truth is that our new stadium will most likely have the same atmousphere as say the Reebok stadium, an isolated place in the middle of a retail park. The extra distance from the city centre I feel without the proposed tram link will be offputting to those fans who arrive by train.
The sad truth is that because of our stuation, if we want to compete at the top level we have to make this move. The result however will be the loss of some of our identity. As an Evetonian will tell you, going the match in the city is about meeting the lads on county road, having a few beers, walking up goodison road to the ground then meeting for a few more berrs after the match and moaning when we win. Something a car journey to kirkby will totaly change.

Well written article Phil - I know am often critical of some of your articles this is one of far more substance.
As an outsider why did the city council bend over backwards to accomadate your near neighbours requests yet seem to be ambivalent in keeping Everton inside the city?
The city council in Birmingham have always treated its' 2 clubs equitably to the point that if they help fund any of the Birmingham's proposed stadiums they will have to provide a similar grant for Villa's North Stand upgrade.

Cracking good article Phil, I think that you raise a far deeper burning issue that needs to be addressed and that is why Everton have not been offered a suitable site (stanley park) whilst liverpool are given permission and indeed have already started building work. There has to be some kind of bias at LCC for this to be the case. I have no issue with the new stadium being in Kirkby, its what? 4 miles away? I would walk that the watch efc. The most important thing we need is signings and no other signing is more important than david moyes new contract.

Still a few myths knocking about regarding the stadium and related issues. Firstly blaming LCC out of hand is misplaced. EFC have not contacted LCC once regarding any planning advice regarding expanding Goodison nor building a stadium in Stanley Park or on any other site. This is not representative of a board accepting its full responsibilities nor indicative of a club truly exhausting all the options. As soon as LCC flagged up a potential site, the club employed a third party to shoot it down, despite it having the full preliminary backing of the planning office and being supported by a report from world leading stadium designers HOK. On top of everything else they had already given Kings Dock on a plate with a tiny asking price..... what more can people want from them? Build it for them too?

Then there's the whole question of what EFC really need.... People see a glossy image of something new and go all fanciful with no regard for logic to make it fit our needs and ambitions. Phil Mac says quite profoundly that we need a NEW stadium..... Why? Do you mean we need some extra capacity? Do you mean we need more corporate facilities? Both? Not sure this is reflected in our attendances or the often pitiful uptake in corporate seats at the moment, but I agree speculative increases in both could bare fruit. However, why should this necessarily equate to a NEW stadium ONLY as opposed to redevelopment of Goodison? The vast majority of obstructed views can readily be erradicated by re-roofing existing stands, and for the amounts now quoted (not the stadium for nowt promises) one or two new stands can easily yield Kirkby's capacity and beyond...... The club simply have never asked LCC for any guidance regarding expansion, and that to me is criminal negligence. Goodison still represents the club's only opportunity to expand incrementally, testing demand as we do, while preserving history and heritage and offering continuity. Kirkby ticks none of these boxes!! Somethings you can't buy!

As regards Kirkby's scouseness, I'm not sure this is relevant at all. Bottom line is Kirkby is NOT in Liverpool hence the identity issues with this most tribal past time. It is always going to be peripheral with limited out of town public transport. The farcical, multi-revised transport strategy indicating only too clearly that the much heralded "most accessible stadium in the country" will not even be the most accessible stadium in the city, nor anywhere near as accessible as the current location which does not need unattainable park and ride/walk/cycle schemes to work.

A number of people have praised this article and pointedout how poor Phil McNultys' blogs usually are.

i must point out the title of the article. "Does hazel hold evertons purse strings?'... after talking with a club spokesp erson, phil get shis answer, which is "no". I am assuming he wrote the srticle after he got that answer, so I am little perplexed to his point?

Second and here I quote the great man himself "My own personal view is that while Goodison Park is still an atmospheric stadium that has something uniquely Everton about it, they need a new ground."

Very good Phil...Godison Park has something uniquely Everton about it. What would that be then? The fact that it is Evertons home ground and be-decked with blue and White?

I enjoy reading this mans blogs, simply for the sport of picking out what an hopeless journalist he is. Keep them coming Phil.

As for Everton and the new ground. Its not very accessible. Public transport is not easy for many fans who travel to on the Bus. Being in Knowsly means that bus access is very hard. The Kirkby thing is just a way of saying that, of course people from Kirkby are scousers, and half of them are blue.

Everton fans want to have a great ground to be proud of. For many years Goodsion was viewed as a better stadium than Anfield, more capacity, a World Cup venue etc. With Liverpool getting their new place underway, the blue noses want to ensure that they get something at least as good as Liverpool.

15. At 1:44pm on 12 Jul 2008, HughesT wrote

Not sure why you are so certain we could get a 50,000 - 60,0000 seater staium with no obstructed views, etc on Goodison, even if we ripped down and started from scratch, let alone the hideous sounding, chop and rebuild that you describe.

As for "need", it's called growth, more fans should be born every day, why should they not come to a new stadium. Believe it or not there are people who would go to a football mach in a shiny new stadium, with 1st class facilities, coorporate boxes, and better family spaces, that will NEVER go to Goodison, and more who wouldn't go twice. not everyone who wants to go to footy has to have 12 beers on thwe way to enjoy the experience.

Good article.

We keep getting told we need a new new stadium to move on to "the next level" what ever that means but actually do we need one? Im not too bad at Maths and I thought 40,000 people paying an average of £35 each to get into Goodison would generate the same revenue as 40,000 people paying the same price to get into Goodison. I can't remember ever having to tread carefully around the stadium in case it crumbled beneath my feet. Has anybody been to Pride Park, The Riverside, St Marys Stadium or The Stadium of Light (Sunderland version) and experienced a truly unforgettable atmosphere. Anybody who as experienced a big night game at Goodison, and there have been many unforgettable in the 25 years I have been going, would tell you they will remember it for the rest of their lives. I can't imagine many Derby, Boro, Sunderland or Southampton fans can say that about their new homes, but the older fans will surely remember plenty from life before sky. Everton are unique in that they still manage to remain relatively traditional and community based in the modern commercial and corporate football world. Yes we may have lots of shiny new executive boxes in a new stadium. You know. Those empty rooms we have at our current stadium. So lets go down the corporate road and get loads more boxes so we can have more empty spaces in a soulless concrete and steel bowl. I have got no problem with my seat at Goodison, which also happens to be good enough for my father and the many who went before him. And as for a new stadium attracting better players, who wants a player who only wants to play where it's shiny and new.

I have supported Everton for over forty years and the only feelings I have for Goodison Park is thats where I go to watch my beloved team play. The ground by and large is a dump. Poor visibilty in some parts and showing its age. We need to move. If you truly support Everton you would watch them at any ground including a muddy field. As to the location Kirkby offers transport solutions that are not currently there, like a train and bus station. Its close to the East Lancs and M57 (and 10 mins from where I live). 50,000 seater is 10,000 more than now so would mean at least £150,000 in extra revenue each match day. I consider Kirky as Liverpool and the City council can back off. They did nothing to help us stay in the city, when we wanted the Park we were refused. Unless you are LFC you will get nowt from the Council, so lets get behind the move and stop bickering.

But all this misses a real valid point. The residents of Kirkby DO NOT want a football stadium in the middle of the town.
Kirkby is a residential area with very little open spaces, it is not suitable for a 50,000 seater stadium. It can not absorb that many people and cars on a match day, it's just a ridiculous idea.
The residents of Kirkby have said NO, that should be the end of it.

Would any of the people who keep mentioning (not just here) the 40.000 issue care to explain what einsteinian law of physics or nature decrees that only 40,000 people can ever be interested in going to watch Everton at any given time. As a Family man i know 3 people (my wife and 2 daughters) who've never been inside Goodison, but would be going to a better Stadium (I'm an Evertonian for 27 years now and Goodison is a dump).
There will be plenty of others who feel the same way, not to mention others who feel a "reluctance" to go to Goodison for "historical" reasons. It was not exactly somewhere anyone who wasn't white wanted to go in the 80s and that kind of things sticks around a lot longer than you'd think.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Great article Phil. I completely agree with anyone_4_beer_darts. We all have to start being realistic. We'll never be able to attract investors while were at our current state. A ground which regularly has to bee worked on just to meet health and safety standards, and few oppourtunities for corporate sponsorship.

I love Goodison, all evertonians love Goodison and we love our heritage, the problem is that now its come to a point where we need to take stock. If the Council want us to stay within the boundaries then they would be offering us every avaliable site under the sun, the fact is theyre not and now they are trying to harm our chances of moving by vetoing the move to kirkby.

Its obvious were not wanted but still some fans are trying to keep us where we are where we have no chance of regeneration. Were losing a lot of money on keeping Goodison up to Health and Safety standards and at the end of the day if we dont act soon we could be without any money for transfers or without a suitable stadium.

We should take this oppourtunity while we still have it and everyone whining about the location is stupid its only 4 miles down the road, its not like were moving to Milton Keynes or anything.

I think Tevezfiasco is looking to cast KEIOC as villains in the above post. Personally, I think they have done a good job in keeping the pressure on the club, without them there would have been no Evertonian organisation opposed to the move.

It was KEIOC who told the masses about the planning problems, transport problems and financial costs (£78million). If you check the official club website the official stance is still "effectively free". Also the information provided on the official site is now outdated as the stadium is not allowed to host concerts to bring in extra revenue and capacity has been capped at 50,401 and will not be able to be expanded until the transport infrastructure is improved.

KEIOC did fly a plane over Goodison Park several times last season. They did hold an internet survey but I don't believe it was biased although that may be because I support their aims. As far as I know KEIOC is less than a dozen people so they can hardly inundate the government with letters on their own. The vast majority of letters will be coming from Evertonians and/or Kirkby residents.

I also believe that you are confusing KRAG (Kirkby Residents Action Group) with KEIOC, it was KRAG who organised the protests in Kirkby against the stadium, not KEIOC.

As for Toffeeweb, the only person I know who was banned from the site was an Australian and he was banned because he was deliberately trying to wind people up.

I've probably missed something so will post again if I remember anything.

MikeArms
I think the arguement that Kirkby is a residential area is irrelevant given that Everton's current residence in Kirkdale is hardly out in the sticks. No-one in Kirkby can argue that the development would bring with it much needed regeneration for the area. I live within a stone's throw of where the new ground would be sited and I don't understand the assertion that the area couldn't handle the traffic, is the new site not just at the end of the M57? Goodison is right in the middle of a residential area where the traffic links simply aren't good enough. No train station within a few miles and the park and ride bus service is useless. At the end of the day it will mean very few minuses and quite a few pluses!

Phil says:

"Well, the ideal situation would be a rebuilt and redeveloped Goodison Park - or a new stadium within the Liverpool city boundary."

I'm glad you start with the premise that this is the "ideal", which I agree with...... Surely that should have been the club's whole initial focus? In which case why is the feasibility study for redevelopment dated several months after the vote (and undertaken by Tesco's experts)? Why on earth has the club not even asked the planning office where it stands on the possibilities of expansion? I have asked and they couldn't be more receptive to the idea.

"Let's start with the potential redevelopment of Goodison Park.
Where would Everton play while it was being done? How would they fare playing in a stadium that was being rebuilt all around them?"

The vast majority of football clubs have redeveloped their existing stadia rather than relocating for good reason, so I'm not sure what the great mystery is here. Stadium design and construction has moved on massively since the early 90's. It isn't necessarily the case that the club would have to move whilst work was carried out. Most clubs have remained in situ. At Ipswich AFL even demonstrated that new double-deckers can be built with lower tiers operational within a close season or so, with the upper tiers comissioned soon after meaning that capacity need not be dramatically affected during transition. Many other clubs have achieved similar.

"Goodison Park has got fantastic history and tradition, but it is ramshackle now and even its most ardent admirers would agree on that."

I can remember the Albert Dock being described similarly. I suppose the value of history/identity is a bit of an imponderable but it's as real an asset and as defining as the colour of our shirt. I believe elements of Goodison could/should be preserved and combined with modernity and contemporary additional structures to create something unique. Kirkby cannot ever do this!

"Everton need a more modern arena and (I truly hate saying this but it is a fact of life) more corporate facilities to help generate the sort of income needed to move them on and at least challenge the clubs above them."

I agree, but if we are paying for 3/4 of the Kirkby construction there is no financial reason why we cannot remodel GP, but to far greater effect, and in a proven location. The site presents a multitude of possibilities, the club should have commissioned a design competition to explore all the options corresponding with different levels of investment. £78m+ could achieve a lot at GP..... for instance, a new tier could be added to the existing Bullens, built behind the current stand with exec boxes and capacity for 3-5,000 new seats (a la Ibrox), this could be curved around the corner to extend the existing Park stand by at least 5-10,000 seats including a corner section. £ sides would then be approximately the same height of the Top balcony and a new roof could unify these eradicating most obstructed views on these sides. There is no way that this would cost the same as 3 whole stands at Kirkby. Furthermore, it will test the levels of demand that really exist at present, helping avert unnecessary spending when that can only detract from team building.

"Will they go back to Liverpool City Council? will there be further exploration of a revamp of Goodison?"

To go back to LCC would suggest they have already spoken to them. They haven't! Ask them!

As a football fan who has always enjoyed watching Everton games from Goodison, really enjoyed watching Howard Kendall's 80's side and finally thinks David Moyes is one of, if not the best, manager outwith SAF and AW in the EPL can I ask for some clarity on a couple of points?

Why have Everton falled behind Liverpool in the planning and application for a new staduim, when it has been clear for a few years one was needed?

Have Liverpool been granted favouritism by the council?

Does the council not recognise the value of having such a famous club's staduim within the city? Think of the revenue on match days to local business'

Why is a club with such a good owner, who has backed his manager with his own cash being critised by the fans?

Hi Phil,

Kirkby is only a few miles up the road from Goodison, but trying to get 50,000 people up that road is not currently possible within a reasonable time frame.

The new stadium's transport plan appears to indicate that the road and rail links will be jammed for over an hour either side of kick off, so adding two hours to everyone journey.

If we move to Kirkby the traffic problems will be such that casual (non-season ticket)supporters will go less often, corporate hospitality will not be as expected and so the planned increase in attendence money will be much lower than the business case expects and will not cover the increase in the interest payments on the debt required to pay for this.

I love the club and I love Goodison, but if we have to move then we need to consider the transport plan. However my preference would be to stay at Goodison and for the council to close the bullens road and give it to the club to extend and build a new stand there.

If the council cannot do this, then we know the club will have to move - but in reality the best transport links for quickly moving tens of thousands of supporters are towards the city centre, not the outskirts of the city.

A city centre development might cost more, but we'll be guaranteed better attendances and more corporate hospitality income.

The Walton Hall Park option has similar planning issues as Kirkby, on top of which it would be building a stadium and retail centre on open parkland, so I can't see this ever getting off the ground.

I think the Bestway / loop option will have to be revisited, and maybe this time someone from the club will actually read the site's proposed development plan.

The transport issue is what is also holding down the capacity of the planned Kirkby stadium to 50,000 - which is all the more galling in the light of Keith's claim that it can easily expand capacity to 75,000.

I think Bill is a great chairman, and I'm proud that he owns our club, but on this issue he is wrong, even though his motives are right.

I have nothing against Tesco's, in fact I'm sure that most supporters have nothing against them so I'm surprised you have gained that impression. The club was wrong to have thrown all our eggs in one basket by getting into bed with Tesco's and to try to push through this high risk strategy without having an adequate contingency plan should it fail. There should have always been a plan B, and a plan C.

"Why have Everton falled behind Liverpool in the planning and application for a new staduim, when it has been clear for a few years one was needed?"

They have fell behind because of a lack of vision and cutting corners (not doing their research properly), it's that simple.

"Have Liverpool been granted favouritism by the council?"

Not really. The two council party leaders are Evertonians who want to see Everton stay within their area. A previous council leader Mike Story (a Liverpool fan) also put together a plan that would see Everton move to the riverside into a £200million stadium for the cost of £30millon.

"Does the council not recognise the value of having such a famous club's staduim within the city? Think of the revenue on match days to local business'"

The council do recognise it and want Everton FC to stay in the area but as HughesT said above, Everton have never approached the council, the council have always had to contact the club.

"Why is a club with such a good owner, who has backed his manager with his own cash being critised by the fans? "

That's a common misconception. Bill Kenwright has never put his own money into the club, he's done what the American owners at Liverpool have done and borrowed money to purchase the club, when it was purchased he put the debt onto the club. He's borrowed money against the club's future income. However he's seen in a different light because at the time, he was the only person interested in buying the club from Peter Johnson. It also helps his cause that he's an Evertonian.

phil,

Would like to see your thoughts on the post by So_Cal_Dandie.......

Sadly I think much of this comes down to money. Partnering with Tesco for the Kirby stadium may anger some fans, but it appears, from the figures I've seen at least that it is the cheapest way to build a new stadium.

Finding a site within the Liverpool boundries for an alternative development is a lovely sentiment (though as an Everton fan living outside Liverpool I'm less concerned than others), but it comes down to the vexed question of how to pay for it? Any site LCC can offer realistically needs enough land to build either a big supermarket or other commercial development that can help offset the build, otherwise Everton could be in serious financial trouble.

I also don't think that redeveloping Goodison is a viable alternative for the same reason. Firstly, how long will the club have to absorb reduced revenues and capacity whilst the work goes on? Secondly would a redevelopment mean an expansion of the current "footprint" of Goodison, if it does then how much will it cost to buy up the houses that the stadium is surrounded by? I'm not an architect or accountant but that doesn't seem like a cheap option.

The sad truth is that the current board does not appear to have the money to fund either a new stadium or redevelopment out of their own pockets (hence Tesco), and therefore the club should possibly be looking for new investment. However getting someone to commit to invest in the club until this issue is resolved is going to be virtually impossible. Once either the move or redevelopment is physically underway Everton become much more attractive to invest in by someone who is in it for the long term.

Finally the debate between Everton fans over this has at times become quite heated, and I hope that if the club does end up moving to Kirby the fans from KEOIC will put the disagreement behind them and keep showing their support for the team.

To MikeArms

Where are you getting this information from? I live in Kirkby and the vast majority of people i speak to are in favour of the redevelopment. The only people i know against it are so because of the closeness of the proposed stadium to their house.

George Howarth MP conducted a random survey in which the majority of Kirkby stated they were in favour of the redevelopment.

People who are against it, scream the loudest.

The proposed move to Kirkby is a disaster waiting to happen. Goodison is sold out for less than 20% of Everton home fixtures with a capacity almost 10,000 less than what has been proposed. Currently a significant proportion of each gate is so called 'walk up', or last minute decisions to attend the game by people in the Liverpool area, such spontanaeity would not be possible were the ground 30 minutes drive away. Do not underestimate the psychological impact of the so called surrender of the city to Liverpool either. However this is presented Everton football club would be sited outside the city limits in the borough of Knowsley, this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not people from Kirkby are identified as Scousers or not. Anyone with a sense of pragmatism can seen that the only sensible answer to the Merseyside stadium issues is groundshare. This solution would end the American strangle hold on Liverpools' transfer activity whilst ensuring that Everton stay true to their history and roots.

George Howarth's random poll?

Didn't that include labour campaigners from outside Kirkby?

I don't know of any internet poll on any fan websites in favour of Kirkby.... before, during and certainly not since the vote.

To HughesT

" The poll targeted residents of Shevington, Park, Whitefield, Northwood, Cherryfield and Kirkby Central wards. These are the wards most affected by the proposed development...

this poll was conducted by telephone. This means that telephone numbers are randomly selected and then answers received are weighted to ensure they are representative of the local community, in accordance with best practice"

https://www.georgehowarthmp.org.uk/georges_views/everton_tesco/icm_poll.html

Only Kirkby areas asked and completely random at that.

Fan websites generally aren't representative of supporters. On the BK relocation forum, only people against the move are present (with the exception of one or two). So it seems as if the majority don't want to go. But as i said people against it scream the loudest, you are hardly going to get someone campaigning for it.

Anyway i'm not getting into whether the fans want it, I'm saying Kirkby wants it. Believe me.

I personally wouldn't class losing 55 acres of green land for an outer town retail park as 'regeneration'. Whether Destination Kirkby is called in or not Kirkby will have a brand new Tesco.

Lib Dems offered a postal vote to 1,600 residents and that came back with 86% opposed to the stadium.

At the end of the day, the residents have been hoodwinked as well as the fans. Kirkby residents no doubt want regeneration and they've been told by KMBC and Tesco it's only possible with Everton football club when in reality they just needed to provide a 'leisure facility' to get permission to build on the land.

St Chad's Vicar doesn't seem to think so, nor does Dave Kelly spokesman for KEIOC who is also a Kirkby resident, as are other members of the group. The anti-stadium party that stood in the elections missed out on one seat by just a handfull of votes despite just 4 weeks preparation and it being a labour stronghold and heavily influenced by literature circulated by Tesco etc at the time of the election. A few more weeks and greater resources would have made a difference yet even then labour only managed to secure a total of 48% of the vote. As far as dissenters shouting loudest and pro-movers not likely to campaign in its favour the Kings Dock had its own pro-websites. DK has none other than the club's official website. If people are enthused by a project as they were with KD, I think they campaign especially when so many are so vociferous against it. The truth is, they aren't a bit excited by this prospect.

Couldn't agree more with Phil's comments.

Also, to add to the point about Phil Thompson. Both Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard are from outside the Liverpool boundary, Sefton and Knowsley respectively.

What is your problem Everton fans. How many football league clubs actually play in the area they are really from? about 50% i believe if that. You are from liverpool and Kirby is in liverpool. so get real and move. You can always change your name to kirby fc. And birmingham city can revert back to Small Heath FC or to Saltley fc when we move ground. Get it yet?

There does not seem to be much talk of worry about the lack of transfer action on here either?

While EFC are debating where there team should play Aston Villa and the likes are out there signing your targets(Sidwell).

Surely there has to be a balance of investment in the team aswell as investment in the stadia?

Hi guys,

sorry, but instead of re-developing Goodison, surely an option would be to knock it down and re-build? EFC already owns the land and accessibility would not be an issue. Before people start asking where would EFC play, I would remind you that Benfica and Sporting Lisbon completely knocked their old stadiums down to build new ones on the same spot for Euro 2004. It meant 1 year playing in less-than-ideal conditions, but now the (real) Stadium of Light is a joy in which to watch a match.

At the end of the day, the problem with the proposed Kirkby stadium isn't that it is outside the Liverpool boundary, or that it is going to cost £50m more than was promised, or that it'll be plonked on a parking lot next to Tesco, or that Tesco themselves are seen as providing capital to Everton when they clearly aren't, or that there will be no on-site parking for fans, or that the public transport network is woefully ill-equipped to deal with match-day attendances, or that the £10m-a-year profits that were promised will be wiped out by the debt taken on to finance what was pitched as "effectively free"...

The problem is that the proposed stadium comes with ALL of those problems and many more. It is quite simply wrong for Everton Football Club.

Incidentally, the high quality of debate that Mr McNulty's article has prompted here has been going on on Toffeeweb for a year now (the accusation that pro-Kirkby posters are being banned from that site is wholly inaccurate, by the way) but it's nice to see the issue being discussed by a wider audience.

To WekkaBlue

First of all I have never heard of this Lib Dems vote. I very much doubt 86% were opposed to stadium because

1) most people where I live are in favour of the ground
2) if 86% did oppose it im sure there would be a massive outcry by the likes of the Liverpool Echo.

I find the view that people are being hoodwinked patronising to be honest. The people of Kirkby aren't stupid. We have access to the information available, and we know what is on offer.

Personally I'm split with the ground. As a Kirkby citizen im all for it. A brand new start for Kirkby. As an Evertonian my problem is the design, nothing else. Its a bit bland for my liking, nothing distinctly Everton about it. And since being an Evertonian precedes being a Kirkby citizen, at this moment in time im not wanting the stadium unless the design was rejigged.

I'm quite depressed to see there are still some fans who seem largely in favour of this move. Without wishing to sound patronising I assume they haven't kept up with the details of the debate.

If the stadium were:
World Class
Capable of raising more money to spend on players by hosting concerts etc
Had really easy travel access for fans
Was "virtually free"
Then it would have to be a consideration even though the location isn't great.

However we now know:
It is midrange with basic facilities.
No concerts can take place and we have to give it to Knowsley council for free 100 times a year.
It might be near the motorway but there is no parking for fans within 2 miles of the stadium. Some of the car parks will be 45 minutes walk away from the ground!
It will cost a minimum of £78m, and more likely £100m which would be enough redevelop Goodison.

People complaining how hard done by we have been by the council really need to grow up. We were offered Kings Dock (a £200m stadium) for £30m and Kenwright failed to raise the cash.

Liverpool are paying for their own stadium, the only reason that no site can be found for Everton is that we have no money to pay our own way. Expecting the council to effectively do all the work for Everton AND provide financing for it is ludicrous.

guest6856

It was reported in the Daily Post:

https://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2008/02/09/lib-dems-to-oppose-everton-stadium-plan-64375-20455440/

We need retail space as part of the development to increase our revenue in the abscence of a wealthy investor. The City has just about exhausted it's retail sector with recent developments meaning that

a) We can not do this inside the city boundary

b) Goodison would not provide a big enough footprint, would arguably just accomodate a new ground

c) We would need an improved infrastucture

In addition the partnership of a succesful wealthy business would be a bonus.

The scheme is welcomed by the majority of Kirkby residants who see it as much needed regeneration for a deprived area with high unemployment but whom do not shout as loud as KRAG.

The reality of the situation is wheather you agree with Kenwright or Wynnes, they are there to make money if not to look after Evertons interest. There is also a board of directors over seeing their decisions. In light of the differance in opinion this debate has caused between suporters, do you honestly think they would put themselves in the firing line occuring the wrath of 40,000 Evertonians asking us to vote on a move if we had an equivalent offer to stay within the City boundary's? It's a no brainer.

Just a final point on LCC. We have been actively discussing a move and drawing up plans for near fifteen years now, since the origonal Kirkby project under Peter Johnson. I'm not a doctor or anything but I would have though this was ample time for the council to present a viable plan B instead of waiting for Everton to come to them cap in hand at the fall of their latest ambitious project. Unfortunately for them, Tesco's involvement this time around means this is not just a threat but a reality.

Hooby,
The tesco/knowsley "partnership" and the whole enabling package has yielded what precisely? Approximately the cost of just one of the 4 new stands at Kirkby. We are still having to find £78m+ ourselves, and that's only if the retail development is the size first applied for. This is looking less and less likely. Is this anything like the "deal of the century" sold to us?! There exists sufficient space at the Park end to generate a direct enabling package of our own that would give a 100% return since it is our own land. Also the infrastructure around Walton/Anfield is of far greater capacity than that at Kirkby in terms of both roads and public transport with additional infrastructure scheduled for LFC's new stadium which we can take full advantage of too. People can disperse in all directions at the more central location, and have direct access to trains to ALL stations on the Northern Line, and with a national mainline station just 2 miles away. At Kirkby the vast majority will be travelling in the same direction, on very limited services by comparison, with hardly any Liverpool districts and no Wirral districts (1/3rd of our season tkt holders) with direct services to Kirkby. 4 trains an hr at Kirkby, 24 trains per hr at Sandhills, With the Wirral line just one stop away.

Good article Phil. Can I ask your oopinion of Bill Kenwright's search for investors to put money into Everton? A year or two ago we had the farce of the alleged consortium, fronted if I remember correctly by Chris Samuelson. It turned out that there was no investor. We also had the rumours of a Russion billionaire. These rumours seem to circulate when Bill is under pressure. Do you think he is willing to dilute his ownership.
Also, the role of Wyness has been apalling. A CEO with no Plan B!

Scouseirishblue wrote:

What makes you think he had no plan B?

Hooby - you say "We need retail space as part of the development to increase our revenue in the abscence of a wealthy investor"

We wouldn't own any of the retail development in the new project.

The only revenue raising things over Goodison are 10,000 more seats - if these sell for an average of £600 a season (allowing a BIG price increase and assuming they are "premium" seats).

That gives us £6m extra a season of revenue. The repayments on £78m will be £7.8m a season over a 25 year period.

Clearly those suggesting that there is no need for a nw stadium know nothing about running a football club.

For one thing it has nothing to do with capacity. Goodison is big enough for Everton and a new stadium would not be much bigger.

It has much to do with corperate facilities yes, an increase of sponsos boxes, conference facilities and so on would lead to a big increase in revenue. This is especially true if the stadium is outside the city as firstly it would make access so much easier for corperate events tht usually mean people travelling from around the country and secondly it would have far less competition for this business.

It has something to do with football facilities. Better provisions for players and officials means that there is moe likelyhood of attracting big matches to the stadium (UEFA cup finals, matches if England ever host a world cup etc.).

It even has somthing to do with fan facilities. A new stadium allows for resteraunts, bars, entertainment, better seating and more.

But most of all it is to do with maintenance and legislation.

Most people don't realise how much it costs to maintain a stadium, especially an old one. There is obviously structural upkeep, electrics, plumbing, facilities, the pitch and stands. But there is also complying with legislation regarding health and safety and provision for disabilities. Most pre-1980 grounds are extremely poor in this regard and it costs millions to upgrade facilities each time to meet new criteria and usualy the effect is only to put a bandaid on the problem as it will need further work again in another few years.

Moving to a new staium allows for a proper modern redesign, modern construction (reducing maintenance costs rastically), quality modern facilities, environmentally and energy efficient electrics, proper organised placement of lavetories, bars etc., improved changing/gym areas, improved corperate facilities, future proof access and health and safety capabilities, increased security options and a host more potential benefits. 90% of which can NOT be attained at an old faltering stadium like Goodison.

Oh and incase you were wondering, I am a Swansea fan, we have seen all this as benefit from our new stadium, despite being sad to see the old Vetchfield go we all ealised the benefits. Anyone who cant see the same for Everton is frankly trying to stay in the dark.

The only revenue raising things over Goodison are 10,000 more seats - if these sell for an average of ?600 a season (allowing a BIG price increase and assuming they are "premium" seats).

----------

What a stupid statement. Read my last comment to see how much moe extra revnue would be generated as well as reduced costs. The extra seating will largely make no difference at all.

In response to "therealeverton" asking how do I know Wyness has no Plan B.
Quite simple, he said so at the AGM!
Sin e

57. At 7:52pm on 12 Jul 2008, Scouseirishblue wrote:
In response to "therealeverton" asking how do I know Wyness has no Plan B.
Quite simple, he said so at the AGM!
Sin e

NOPE.......

plans B AND C outlined and rejected. If you read it properly he is saying Plan B / C is so poor in relation to plan A that it may as well not exist.

"There isn't a plan B because there is no other deliverable project that can actually finance and deliver the redevelopement of Goodison. There are sites within the city of Liverpool but there is no site that can deliver the contribution we are going to get from the Knowsley project that can make the stadium affordable. This is the only one that can realistically be delivered."

59. At 8:18pm on 12 Jul 2008, Phil McNulty - BBC Sport wrote:

I'm guessing ou were posting that as I posted mine. Read my comment at 8:16pm on 12 Jul and you'll get the reason for my "loaded" question.

I hope you can read between the lines, being a journo and all, even if you do take a bit more than your fair share of stick.

Sorry to have caused such a stink with my comments but I have been banned from Toffeeweb under my real name and I was not abusive. I just kept on pointing out the pro's of the stadium. I am a 48 year old planning professional I have worked for the Planning Inspectotrate and just think that KEIOC have gone too far. Like most EFC supporters I felt hat the plane stunt was a joke, I know for a fact that KEIOC have been in contact with KRAG and that their website has actively encouraged people to write in to Hazel Blears to object. I know for a fact that the professional planners at LCC recommended that planning be granted for housing at Bellfield and it is a fact that Cllr Bradley has lobbied the government to call in Kirby. So I think all the people duth protest too much. See Toffeeweb tonight. I rest my case.

tevezfiasco

Dude, Toffeeweb does not come accross as unbiased o me at all. not in the least.

Phil,
Do you have any comments to make about post 33 from Wekka blue?
If you have, I would be interested to read them.
If you haven't, I would like to know why.

Thanks

Hi hackerjack,

Swansea moving from Vetchfield to Liberty Stadium is completely different to relocating Everton to Kirkby. Liberty Stadium is located within a mile of the city centre if I remember correctly. Kirkby is to Liverpool City Centre is a similar distance to what Llanrhidian is to Swansea, it's the back of beyond. The saving grace according to some is it is near a motorway.

We appreciated that Goodison Park is outdated and that's why fans are pleading with the board for it to be redeveloped. The council are fully behind the idea and have even offered land to the club around Goodison Park for it to happen. The fans are fully behind the idea; the problem is convincing CEO Keith Wyness it can be done.

We know it lacks corporate facilities but this can be fixed with one new stand and it could be developed on a piecemeal basis providing the residents don’t object, just look at the turnaround at Croke Park – that was with a carefully executed plan.

Goodison Park was the first purpose-built football stadium in the country and the only stadium in the country to host a World Cup semi-final - it's to be proud of. Moving from such a prestigious stadium to a stadium based on a retail park in the outskirts is a step too far for many fans.

Keith Wyness once stated that Everton's new stadium should have 60+ corporate boxes; Kirkby has 37 planned so it seems that they do not think they will need that many in Kirkby.

It was Gerry Young's mistake that led to the winner phil, we won 3-2.

Where's the crystal?

"If the city council wants Everton to stay in Liverpool, has there been any specific details of exactly what has been offered to the club?

I don't recall that."

There has been no SPECIFIC details released. I imagine this is largely down to risk of upsetting residents - I doubt he wants a Kemlyn Road scenario with some of the private landlords..

Liverpool's council leader Warren Bradley once said that one of the 3 primary schools in Walton will be closed by 2012, he said if Everton choose to redevelop- it would make the decision on which to close down easier (Gwladys Street Primary - behind the Bullens Road stand).

He also said that if the club agree to enter talks and they're interested he will put together a team to relocate the people in the houses on Muriel Street and Diana Street as they have a good relationship with the Housing Association s who owns the houses which will allow Everton to expand the stadium onto that land.

The scrapyard on Walton Lane is also leased from LCC.

Bill Kenwright told ESCLA last week that LCC had offered land near Goodison Park for expansion.

With the average property price in the area being 80,000-90,000 I'd imagine to purchase the land necessary houses would be around £8m.

This may be an urban legend so I'd just like to have it confirmed or denied. Phil, you are in a position to know. Could you confirm whether when Kenwright purchased the club, the clubs debt rose by the amount he paid? :)

I may have been off the mark in post #33 but my answers were what I believe to be correct.

One reason why I believe in the idea of a new stadium in Kirby is that EFC can afford it. All the alternatives seem to be beyond our means. My main problem with Cllr Bradley objecting to Kirby is that if EFC is to be able to afford a stadium it needs Tesco. Leahy is an EFC supporter. LCC have objected to the Tesco store at Kirby because it is too big. So if a Tesco store is proposed and is the only way EFC can afford it then quid pro quo EFC can't have a new stadium anywhere. Kirby, Walton, Scotland Road, Timbuktu. They will all be unacceptable because of the Tesco. If had billions I would galdly give it all to EFC to enable them to stay at Goodison Park but unfortunately I don't.

Phil
a great blog and a subject that has continued to dominate the Bkue websites for some time.

On the subject of Kirkby Tescodome the main complaints are:

1.The Stadium was supposed to be world class.
IT WONT BE
2. It was supposed to be virtually free
IT WONT BE
3.The transport system was supposed to be the "Best in the country"
IT WONT BE
4. It will provide the manager with up to 10 million extra a year for players.
IT WONT
5.It was supposed to be a 55000 seater expandable to 75000(the reason the loop was rejected).
It is limited to 50401 and may even be reduced further.
6.It was supposed to generate extra income from concerts and functions.
They are not allowed by KMBC and furthermore the corporate facilities are to be used by KMBC for 1/3 of the year.

IT IS NOT "THE DEAL OF THE CENTURY"

IT"S "THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY".

Hello Phil,
Thanks for the reply.

I'm puzzled by the belief among many fans, which you appear to share, that it is up to Liverpool City Council to find potential sites for a new ground for EFC and presumably simply hand it over to them for free. I'm no planning expert but this is simply not living in the real world.
You rather gloss over the King's Dock. The club were given over two years, including at least 2 deadline extensions, to raise about 10% of a £300m, not £200m, development. The failure of EFC to raise their paltry share caused the whole scheme to fail. It was also the only one of 7 bidders that sought public money. In reality LCC has bent over backwards to keep EFC in the city and has received nothing in return.

"One reason why I believe in the idea of a new stadium in Kirby is that EFC can afford it. "

That's debatable. It's so finely balanced that the club are saying if it's called in they won't be able to afford the rise in costs.


"All the alternatives seem to be beyond our means. "

We don't know that, the club have not spoken to anyone else. I read on toffeeweb in a post by Tom Hughes that Bestway's Malcolm Carter said the loop site could cost Everton as little as £60million as it would qualify for lots of regeneration grants as it would be seen as a catalyst for the regeneration of Vauxhall and Everton. This is also the theory behind a stadium in Kirkby but CABE felt the stadium was such of poor standard and a "lost opportunity".

"My main problem with Cllr Bradley objecting to Kirby is that if EFC is to be able to afford a stadium it needs Tesco. "

It doesn't "need" Tesco specifically, it needs an enabling partner. This could have been an events company like SFX (Kings Dock partners).

"Leahy is an EFC supporter. LCC have objected to the Tesco store at Kirby because it is too big. So if a Tesco store is proposed and is the only way EFC can afford it then quid pro quo EFC can't have a new stadium anywhere. Kirby, Walton, Scotland Road, Timbuktu. They will all be unacceptable because of the Tesco. If had billions I would galdly give it all to EFC to enable them to stay at Goodison Park but unfortunately I don't."

Don't forget that KMBC prevented a Tesco being built on the East Lancs because they felt it would kill their town off. I really don't understand why you keep bringing Tesco up, Everton are currently intending to spend £78million of their own credit on a retail park stadium.

(good blog Phil)

Right!

I'm a Newcastle United Fan and although i hate everton because they are cementing that 5th place spot which i so desperately want for my team, i do feel that Everton must GO now!

They have probably the best manager they could possible get for evertons style of play and structure

If everton pass up this opportunity to invest while they are performing well in the premier league, they may never get a better chance

i think Everton are constantly knocking on the door to the top three BUT they are never going to get there BECAUSE they arent a big enough club, futurewise i reckon everton cant get higher than what they are now

SO

invest!, although there is the debt issue but if you Everton fans really want to get into the top three that badly you have NO choice whatsoever but to get a better stadium (stuff the location or name)

JUST GET THAT STADIUM

Too many people confuse RICH clubs with BIG clubs. Everton are one of the biggest clubs in England. They ARE the 4th most successful league side in English football, AND the joint 4th most successfull overall.

What everton are NOT currently is amongst the richest clubs in english football. There's a difference.

Phil congratulations on running a very fair and balanced view on this debate. I agree very much with some of your assertions in the peice you wrote.

As far as i'm concerned the issue isn't about Kirkby or the location. I couldn't care less that the scheme is based in knowsley. It is about the scale and ambition of the project, which for me does not in any way reflect the motto NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM.

The problem as I see it is that very few people have seriously and properly taken the time to examine in DETAIL the proposals. Once people do they see that this project is completely flawed (and all of this information is freely available from the club, from the KBC planning documents on their website and from news sources for you to check for yourselves).


I feel that the two major flaw are 1) Funding and finance....and 2) Transport policy and implementation.

Lets have a look in detail then....

1). Liverpool's stadium costs doubled in little over 2 years. Emirates was vastly over budget. Wembley was ridiculously over budget.

The lowest possible fit out/spec will cost (at tesco's extremely conservative, putting an extreme gloss on it figures) £80 million. The reality is that by the time it comes to build it Everton will probably have to find over 100-150 million....if not 200 million because those estimates given were at Sept 2007 prices (Source: KBC website - planning doccuments).

Bill Kenwright cannot raise that money. he has failed on numerous occasions to bring in major investment. He is already running the clubs debts at full capacity.

We have a £40 million debt secured on FUTURE season ticket sales, so the stadium will not pay for itself out of people through the turnstyles.

What we have here is Bill Kenwright not having a pot to wizz in and having to raise around (realistically) 100+ million pounds when his entire back history shows he is totally incapable of raising even a quater of that amount....

Examples....

Failed NTL deal.

Fortress fund.

£30 million "ringfenced" for Kings Dock which never materialised (and probably never existed in the first place).

Bill is surviving as it is on handouts from friends. People like Robert Earl and Sir Philip Green putting in the odd million here and there. It is not a long term solution to any of our problems.

Put it this way. If Tom Hicks can't get a loan to begin building what do you think Bills chances are in an ecconomic market where one of the richest men in America who has a track record of building multiple successful stadiums in America, cannot get anyone to give him a loan to build a new stadium in either Anfield or Dallas.

LCC (rightly or wrongly) will not allow the club to sell or develop ANY of the land they own in the city. So they can't raise money that way. Even if they allowed them to do this through planning they could attach so many conditions and rules to it that it makes it totally unworthwhile for the club.

This year David Moyes has not signed his contract extension and will be looking to buy a holding midfielder to replace Carsley, a striker, a winger and possibly a defender. He will also be looking for a 2nd keeper to replace Wessels. He has already be rumoured to be wanting to spend up to 12 million on one player alone and they also put a bid in for a lad from Cardiff for £5 million. He is likely to want to spend around £20 million to attempt to push into the top 4....MINIMUM.

If he doesn't get that and a top job comes up for him I would not be suprised or blame him if he walked.

....AND! We are told that the whole point of this process is to provide transfer funds for David to be able to compete?

How so?

The clubs own estimates and financial breakdown (assuming the stadium ran at full capacity and was a success) states that the club will be just £11 million per year better off....out of which there will be costs and repayments for building it in the first place.

£11 million when Liverpool are spending £18 million on ONE midfielder will most certainly NOT make a dent in the top 4.

You could just about buy an Andy Johnson in todays market for that money. So as a financial solution and overiding motivation to loosing over a hundred years worth of history and culture....sorry....it just doesn't add up for me.

2. The second big problem is one of the actual stadium design and implementation.

Already we have an overwhelming level of objections from St Helens, Sefton, Liverpool CC, West Lancs....and even CABE, who are the government's own advisors on design and the built environment.

They wouldn't object unless there was a fundamental problem with the size, scale and transport. Liverpool might for political reasons and potential loss of prestige (not to mention a £50 million a year business)....but the others would not bother, unless the scheme was totally inappropriate.

The idea that a town with 70,000 inhabitants can cope with 55,000 spectators AND the drive up out of town shoppers in their thousands coming in for the largest Tesco supermarket in the UK, is a joke.

One major road in and out heading into town. No plans for a new train station and the vague HOPE of a tram in the future (which in any ace will consist of just two trains pulling 4 carriages).

It will be HORRIFIC goin to the game.

What we have here is a situation where the club want to get rid of one of the largest walk up fan bases in the UK, for an out of town retail park with NO investment in the public transport infastructure planned whatsoever.

We will have crush loaded trains and traffic jams as cars cue to get back into Liverpool and onto the Wirral.

I know in my heart that this will lead to a generational shift of support away from Everton to Liverpool over the years.

Many Evertonians will sack off going to the game for the simple reason that it will be too hard to get in and out of the ground.

....particularly the huge proportion of fans who live on the Wirral (a 3rd of season ticket holders being from Wirral postcodes).

I can't imagine Wirral supporters going to a match in knowsley on public transport because the trams and buses won't be able to cope. They will drive in.

One weekend of driving in and then the absolute mayhem that wll ensue trying to get out and drive back to the wirral on a saturday in peak time shopping traffic....1st of all navigating a retail park and people driving out of tescos....then the horror of the drive through town back into the city centre....it's going to be an absolute nightmare.

It will be like coming home from an away game for anyone who lives in the city centre or on the Wirral.

The funniest statement to come out of the planning doccuments though has to be the idea that 1,000 Evertonians are going to CYCLE to the game.

I kid you not....this is a serious planning proposal and statement.

I wouldn't mind half as much if the stadium was some iconic awesome design that totally captivates and ushers in an incredible match day experience. We know it isn't and won't be. It's a (quoting Everton's application to Knowsley) "mid-range football stadium" this will put in teh same catagory as the Stadium of Light or St Mary's....hardly the "World class" design we were promised by Keith Wyness.

Credible sources (including sources from the 'no' camp) have found out there is to be a meeting early next week between the DCLG and Tesco. If true I read it that this means that Blears department sees much merit in the regeneration proposals for her parties fiefdom but perhaps would like to see a bit less retail? It is only the retail scale elements that are significantly against policy not the stadium. I suggest a meeting wouldnt be called if DK was to be either rubber stamped as it is or if it was to be called in so I think a deal is maybe on the cards.

I can feel a 'You press ahead with Phase One while we discuss in more detail some aspects of the later phases' deal coming on. :)

A very, VERY interesting news article in yesterdays Independant....


"Crackdown on out-of-town superstores to protect small shops and curb 'clone towns'

By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor
Friday, 11 July 2008"


"Under the new guidelines planners will be able to reject applications for large-scale, out-of-town shopping developments if they are likely to have a damaging impact on nearby high streets.

The Competition Commission has been investigating the effects that powerful supermarket chains such as Tesco are having on towns. The commission found that many areas lacked proper competition between supermarkets, giving consumers a poor deal. It said the change in the planning guidance proposed by Ms Blears would be helpful and suggested a new competition test in the planning system to ensure more choice for consumers. "

One of Ms Blears' aides said: "Our priority is to ensure we do not see more and more stretches of the nation's high streets turned into bland 'every towns' where every high street has the same shops, the same look, and the same sterile feel.

"We plan to give councils more scope to curb 'clone town Britain' and to block large out-of-town developments

Should be remembered that the complaints and objections from the local authorities (Sefton, LCC, West Lancs, etc) focuses on the effects the Tesco retail park will have on their high streets and "community shopping offer".

That Blears article in the independent IS very interesting Dave. My reading of it is different to yours though, the proposals are for a curb against 'out-of-town' superstores, the Tesco store in DK will be 'in town'. By that I mean literally yards away from the old dilapidated town centre which is itself is being developed as part of the overall expanded town centre.

If DK and the new Tesco superstore was proposed to be literally 'out-of-town' - that is Kirkby indusrial estate or beyond Northwood then that would destroy the 'in-town' of Kirkby and its current town centre area.

Demonic Engine..... or should I say Gerard Madden or Hattie08, How many more pseudonyms have you got.

It would seem that your trump card on so many sites..... Hazel Blears, is completely contradicting your long held stance that she would rally to Labour's cause in its Kirkby strong hold. Kirkby is out of town. The main conurbation is Liverpool, Kirkby is a housing estate at its edge, no more a town in the true sense of the word than Speke, Huyton or Halewood..... That is why it doesn't even register on the retail heirarchy for the region. Blears latest offering is simply additional to all the governments planning legislation that this whole scheme rides roughshod all over..... hence the unanimous objections of all surrounding councils affected.

Liverpool and Everton were discussing over a new stadium plan together, but now both clubs ar looking to build new stadiums.

How can you not be concerned about the location outside the city boundries?Questioning peoples claims to being scouse or not is ridiculous. Of course people from Knowsley, Halton, Sefton are scousers but Everton is a part of Liverpool, a part of the city and I can't stand the thought of leaving it to the reds. I would never be able to accept watching my team play their home games outside of the city. For want of more intelligent comments, it's just wrong. Plus there's worries about an imbalance in future fan bases.

How can you not be concerned about Tescos involvement? A proud club playing their football on a supermarket retail park... Can't stand the thought of it.

Yes, we probably need a new stadium (I hate being crammed in at the back of the lower stands where you can't see the ball if it goes over head height, which is fairly regularly if Tony Hibbert's on the pitch) but aiming for a 'mid-range' stadium surely can't be an option. It's got to be something special to sacrifice the tradition that is Goodison Park.

Great article again from Liverpool fan Phil McNulty. What cant a few weeks of summer holiday do with a sports-writer. Excellent.

I want to ask Everton fans, do you not think that a 50 000 sitter is too small or just about the right size? What about those initial plans of a 55 000 sitter?

Liverpool are building a new 60 000 sitter, and in my opinion Everton needs to do the same, if they want to compete on a daily basis with Liverpool in the future.

Sell the stadium name to a sponsor like Arsenal did with Emirates, and am sure it will raise the cash needed.

HughesT you're paranoid. What are you talking about?

Just because you cant argue against my point or i'm not typing what you want to see doesnt make me someone else.

You're getting mixed up and misinterpreting the meaning of 'out of town', the DK proposals in Knowsley are 'in town' not 'out of town'. In exactly the same way the proposals for Skem and St.Helens are not 'out of town'. Are you saying that the proposals for Skem and St.Helens are 'out of town' because they are not part Liverpool? It looks like you are. If the DK proposals were for the edge of Tower Hill, Simonswood or Kirkby Industrial Estate then they would be 'out of town' in relation to Kirkby but they're not.

Does anyone else think that a team playing in Kirkby will be less attractive to foreign transfer targets than a team playing in Liverpool?

A NEW STADIUM IN KIRKBY WOULD BE GREAT FOR YOU EVERTON FANS YOU CAN GET ON TRAIN FROM WIRRAL INSEAD OF GET OFF KIRKDALL GET OFF KIRKBY

Good blog Phil.

Taking the football out of it for a second the major reasons the surrounding Councils have objected is that the scale of the retail is completely out of sync with the rest of the region.

Merseyside is one of the poorest areas in Europe and desperately needs regeneration. What Knowsley BC have done here is sell at a fraction of it's value 44 acres for under £12 million to Tesco. With planning permission how much is that land worth? £60 million.

They have done this to attract investment to Knowsley. So not only will they get Everton they will also get a lot of major retailers.

Why is this as problem?

It will change beyond recognition the town of Kirkby. Further, it is more than twice the size of other nearby developments - genuinely threatening the viabilty of such projects and in particular of Liverpool one project.

The Kirkby retail project is half the size of the Trafford centre. In short, it breaks the regions planning policy. Certainly Knowsley can be accused of looking after themselves. The wider region needs redevelopment not just Knowsley.

Secondly, I think the stadium wll become a white elephant for Everton. Most clubs either redevelop or move to better locations. Major sports stadiums that did locate out of town in America moved back in. Everton are moving because they are getting a cheap deal. In this case I don't think cheap is good value.

This has been the most divisive issue in our history and there are plenty of fans saying now that they won't go. Keith Wyness has said he expects 20% not to go, however he expects new stadium effect to see numbers rise. What if he is wrong? What if he ends up with a half empty stadium. In this case half full doesn't sound any better either.

Will the corporate sales and ever increasing (?)tv revenues offset a drop or levelling of attendance?

The transport to the ground is a major issue and if fans don't want to spend an hour either side of the match getting to their cars will they continue to go?

Why are Everton only building 38 boxes, teams like Spurs have over a 100? The DTZ the Governments advisory department have described the stadium as unsuitable for Everton and Kirkby. Will Everton attract corporates to Kirkby?

Surely a city centre site with hundreds and thousands of visters much be a much wiser choice and worthy of investment. What will drive the corporates to Kirkby.

I can't see how the business plan works unless its completely full. Ony success on the pitch will fill that place. If they are successful they can't expand the capacity either. Plan A does not look good to me

I have no boundary issue's myself, It's cheap stadium in the wrong location with poor transport. I see this move as very risky.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

singhab.
are you having a laugh. I will respond to this just as a matter of decency. Liverpool Football clun have the highest percentage of fans from outide the city they play than any other club in the world apart from juventus. This has been studied twice by Liverpool John Moores.

Man united have got more credibility than you muppets, how does that feel?

kirkby is desperate for investment. The town belongs in the last century. If it affects liverpool one project, who cares, what has liverpool ever done for kirkby, nothing.

We need to move on and everton football club has never profited from its affiliation with the city of liverpool. Lets get this awful useless monkey off our back for ever.