Hague laughs off 'Gove clash'

Now they're are starting to bite lumps out of each other, looks really united.

'..claims that he's seen as a dove by some in the Cabinet, at the same time as some say'

One thing I find worthy of a wry grin is the over-use of 'some say', often deployed in the media mostly as a less than worthy way to get across a personal view or provoke controversy where it does not yet exist. Making news vs. reporting, or trying to spin opinion and gossip as the latter may serve some careers, but little else.

I am reminded of Denis Healey's comment that being attacked by Geoffrey Howe was "like being savaged by a dead sheep" - subtitite Gove for Howe.

1 notfooledsteve

Now they're are starting to bite lumps out of each other, looks really united.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Come on Nick, you would expect there to be disagreements in Cabinet discussions, that is the point of them. The debate takes place and then members line up behind the conclusion, whether they privately agree with it or not. This has got to be better than the sofa style of government that Blair operated.

If the story is correct then Hague understands that you can't speak loudly and carry a small stick. Cameron should listen to him.

Hague always has been a man with both intellectual strength and a really good sense of humour and proportion. Qualities that is so obviously lacking in most of his cabinet colleagues.

He's right! There's no need to rush headlong into interventions in Libya. Gadaffi's air force is puny and can't get its bombs onto target. They've not practised it and have no guidance systems either.

Gove and Cameron are hopelessly inexperienced and should keep their fumbling out of grown-ups work.

I fairly sure that Hague would rather be on his ranch in Nevada and sometimes it shows.

It would be better to have a politician in place who really wanted to do the job, as per his predecessor, David Milliband.

Whom I understand might be available?

Bizarre - the last 2 weeks has shown something quite systematic with this government. A total lack of detail and forethought with their policy making. Twisting and turning after policy announcements, this time they are not so much twisting and turning with their policy, but twisting and turning to find one!

David Cameron went from near silence, to a travelling arms salesman, to neo-con hawk and back to a strong silent type. William Hague was next to useless in detailing our foreign policy. It is all very sad. https://bit.ly/gzKBFj

miwc@3
Proof reader sacked

Hague, Gove, Cameron, Cable, Clegg, Osbourne, Hunt, Lansley.

Names to help you chuckle, however much you may feel depressed.

Especially if you're a dictator, media baron, banker or megalomaniac,
or all of the above.

Thing is though, JC, wanting to do the job is not always a sign of the person being ANY GOOD at the job.

For instance:

a) Ken "Prison Doesnt Work" Clarke at Justice

b) David "You Indians had it coming/Terrorism Works" Milliband at the FCO

c) Gordon "No More Boon & Bust" Brown in either No10 or No11 Downing St.

d) Bunter Soames, Des Browne, Bob Ainsworth at MoD.

e) Ruth Kelly at Education

f) Any of Gordon's GOATS who soon scarpered once they realised they were all just window dressing... except for that chuntering idiot Lord West. Christ only knows how such a plank ever rose to be First Sea Lord...

This is trivial compared with what they will be up to in the dying throes of the Coalition - 6 months max. Libya - who cares anyway. It is the gathering storm on the economy and public services that will break the back of this government.

And given the other things going on Nick, isnt this a bit tame?

Nothing about last nights Barnsley results, as predictable as they were? Nothing about the ongoing situation in Libya? The re-drawing of constituency boundaries?

And instead we have a might or might not be tittle-tattle blog?

Shurely Shome Mishtake?

Appears from the interview that WH has real concerns about Gove's running of the Education Department. Before Gove imposes his will to introduce a 10 hour school day, perhaps he should stay behind after class, learn for longer and start achieving.

Can he laugh off this by-election result?

The labour guy gets chucked out for outright criminality and yet the electorate re-elect labour with the tories getting less vote than UKIP and the liberals losing their deposit.

I favour the Egyptian solution - is there some city square a few million of us can go stand in until snooty has to hold a general election?

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

I'd have thought a certain amount of criticism and personal disagreement was normal within cabinet. Who cares whether they're all buddies?

But I wonder who leaked the Hague/Gove spat. Hague's reaction made it clear it was true. I think the leak is more symptomatic of disunity than the spat itself.

Oops! Fiasco of the day ...

House prices are DOWN both compared with last month and compared with this time last year.

House prices going DOWN at a time when interest rates are so low money is almost free – wow, the disunited kingdom economy must be really booming under tory rule ... ho, ho, ho.


Tories: taking labours mess and making it worse.

7. Hasson

'Bizarre - the last 2 weeks has shown something quite systematic with this government. A total lack of detail and forethought with their policy making. Twisting and turning after policy announcements, this time they are not so much twisting and turning with their policy, but twisting and turning to find one!'

Seems we've gone from one extreme to the other. From the secrecy and control of the previous lot to the 'organic' approach of the coalition.
I prefer a more transparent government, at least you see the c**k-ups coming.

8 Coats

So that's where he went. Just come crawling back to me with his tail between his legs:-)

#7 Hasson - How true. How very true.

The Government has no foreign policy. In fact, I don't think it even know what a foreign policy means.

As far as I can make out this is a one issue party/Government. The deficit. Yada. Yada. Yada. The deficit.

If they clear the public sector deficit they will only create a private sector deficit in so doing. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Judging by his performance on Question Time last night, if Iain Duncan Smith is the best they've got, then God help us.

Weasel words and cheap politicking. Peddling nasty little inventions. Al Megrahi was released by the Scottish Government. Suggestions that a UK Labour Government could influence Alex Salmond in this respect is utterly ridiculous.

His insistence that it was true was so woefully off the mark that it revealed to me that the Tory party must surely be casting mistruths in situations where I am not so well informed. Scratch the surface and they are all the same. Overpromoted too.

Heck, IDS forced me into agreement with Margaret Beckett. Unforgivable!

Part of the problem is the complete lack of a defined foreign policy.

That is, can anybody inside or out of Whitehall point to a single document that clearly and unambiguously states the foreign policy objective(s) of the Government?

From this should flow the overall strategic definition(s) of, for example, the overarching defence requirement(s).

Quite staggering really when one considers the enormous sums of taxpayers funds consumed in Whitehall, that they cannot even get this crucial act together.

Hence the headless chickens syndrome when something unexpectedly comes 'around the corner'.

"It is the gathering storm on the economy and public services that will break the back of this government."

Arguably so. And, if it breaks this one, then it is highly likely that it will break the back of the one that follows it as well, when the public eventually realise that despite the fact that the turkeys they voted for in place of the current flock told them Christmas would never come, that it in fact actually did.

T'was ever thus with all parties. This is a non-story.

I think that Hague is a decent bloke who, unfortunately, is having to learn on the job. Gove, however, is an opportunist whose mouth operates much faster than his small brain. Hague does not to worry about the king of "U" turns.

watriler 11

'This is trivial compared with what they will be up to in the dying throes of the Coalition - 6 months max'

I'm sure that Labour will be hoping they last longer than that. If they got back into power anytime in the next 12 months they'd have to clear up their own mess which is the last thing they'd want to do.

No, much better for Labour the coalition last the full 5 years by which time the bulk of the mess should have been cleared up.

12 "Nothing about last nights Barnsley results, as predictable as they were?"

I'd have said that last night's result was excellent news for the coalition. After all, what Liberal MP is now going to want to rock the boat and cause an election in the near future?

So, let the left have their pointless celebrations, at least we know that the coalition is in until 2015 now.

12 Fubar

"Nothing about last nights Barnsley results"

Gutted. I didn't have a clear view but I must say, when I saw who the ref was, I did fear the worse.

14 - "I favour the Egyptian solution - is there some city square a few million of us can go stand in"

Red Square? Tiananmen Square? Any square that's a long way away would be fine, you could whine to your hearts content about how unfair it all is that you'll now have to work for a living instead of getting others to work on your behalf.

A few million? Let's see what happens on your March 26 demo. You at the front, Saga watching on TV and Lefty11 wheezing along at the back as you're going too fast.

12 Fubar

Nothing about last nights Barnsley results, as predictable as they were? Nothing about the ongoing situation in Libya? The re-drawing of constituency boundaries?

And instead we have a might or might not be tittle-tattle blog?

Shurely Shome Mishtake?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree, this is a trivial matter. My fears for the next topic below.

Cabinet feuding continues. Sources close to government have alleged that Hague likes coffee and Gove prefers tea. When asked about this, Hague's answer was revealing. he said that he would not comment on private hot beverage discussions before he laughed nervously and said "this is a joke".

In addition to the topics you listed:

BSkyB deal approval

MOD culture of waste (£150k micturated against the wall on pulping a book they had reviewed and approved)

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

nondom 9

'Especially if you're a dictator, media baron, banker or megalomaniac,
or all of the above.'

meglomaniac ? Doubt Gordon Brown is chuckling right now.

bankers ? The coalition have imposed a banking levy harsher than any other western economy and opposed by Labour when in government. They were furious with Osboure when he increased the levy so don't see them laughing.

media barons ? To quote Robert Peston - 'Correspondence published today between Mr Hunt and News Corp indicates that News Corp has - under pressure - made greater concessions than it wanted to do guarantee Sky News' independence.' Rupert ain't laughing either.

As for dictators, would you be referring to Tony Blair's pal Colonel Gaddaffi ? He may have been laughing when Labour helped get Megrahi released but not anymore.

20 scotty

Re my post (9). Sorry, forgot about IDS. What a team.

19 MrN

He's been doing the rounds of late - gotta take work where he can find it.

"I favour the Egyptian solution - is there some city square a few million of us can go stand in until snooty has to hold a general election?"

You can take yourself and the rest of the whining plastic socialists off to Tienanmen Square if you like Jon and see how long it takes for Mr Chinese Policeman to introduce you to his good friend Mr Truncheon, or his acquaintance, Mr Electrified Cattleprod. It would at least give the rest of us some peace.

17#

House prices and sales are always going to be down at this time of year because people dont tend to move much in the winter. You'll find that out if you ever get to afford one of your own, Jon.

16 pd

But I wonder who leaked the Hague/Gove spat. Hague's reaction made it clear it was true. I think the leak is more symptomatic of disunity than the spat itself.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree.

Cabinet discussions must be frank and there are bound to be policy disagreements and personality clashes as well. The key thing is that these arguments must stay inside the room, Cameron needs to make it clear that he will sack ministers who can not maintain this basic discipline. Who knows, it might free up some room for the likes of John Redwood, Douglas Carswell etc!

Having just got used to having two prime ministers,we now have two Foreign Secretaries and two Ministers of Education.

Perhaps its a cost saving exercise in doubling up,or the big society in action where everyone gets a turn.How many chancellor`s will we get when the struggle over the economy begins in earnest.

I am reminded of Bottom the Weaver who wanted to play all the parts.By the look of this lot they don`t want to play any of them,at least not properly.


The Mid East crisis and the oil price spike has come early in the administration,Labour had ten years before they were faced with the banking collapse, about which the then opposition and public have been unforgiving.

What will the public think of the government`s policy of fast deficit reduction as purchasing power leaches out of the economy to the oil states, further depressing demand?

This will be Mr.Osborne`s 2008 moment,if he responds appropriately by slowing or suspending his policy of rapid cuts the government should survive,if not there will a re-run of the banking collapse on his watch.

"The labour guy gets chucked out for outright criminality and yet the electorate re-elect labour with the tories getting less vote than UKIP and the liberals losing their deposit."

Its one of those dumbed down ultra safe constituencies where you could put a red rosette on a twenty foot high pile of decaying Canada Goose Guano which was leaking into the local water supply and causing birth defects and these simpletons would STILL vote for it.

The political stupidity of parts of the electorate north of the Watford gap truly, absolutely, knows no bounds. Almost like parts of the third world.

"Now in the country there are almost certainly, including Welsh and Scots Nationalist voters, more who support Labour than support Tory and Lib Dem combined."


3.....2.......1....... {clicks fingers} "....and you're back in the room."


Nice sleep, was it?

38 - "The political stupidity of parts of the electorate north of the Watford gap truly, absolutely, knows no bounds. Almost like parts of the third world."

I'm usually on the same lines as you Fubar but that really is an outrageous slur on the third world.

37 - "This will be Mr.Osborne`s 2008 moment,if he responds appropriately by slowing or suspending his policy of rapid cuts the government should survive,if not there will a re-run of the banking collapse on his watch."

Really? With banks back to making profits and most of the bad debts written off you're now predicting a re-run of the recent banking collapse. I'd ask for details but I know you never give those, only vague warnings with even vaguer hints that you alone know what's going on.

Or maybe it was a banker friend of the family who was sat next to the military expert at your last dinner party and told you all this? A few glasses of Chablis and conversation drfited from how jolly it must be to be working class to the imminent collapse of capitalism.

38. At 11:51am on 04 Mar 2011, Fubar_Saunders wrote:

The political stupidity of parts of the electorate north of the Watford gap truly, absolutely, knows no bounds. Almost like parts of the third world.


and the people south of the Watford gap are determined to keep it that way too,perhaps the people of Barnsley are under estimated and for once are not driven by the party and have picked a candidate who will do his best for his constituency, as should the rest of the country......as has been well proven the colour of the rosette does not mean and honest man.

Blair, Brown, Mandelson, Milliband(1), Milliband(2), Balls, Cooper (!!!), Prescott, Campbell....
Names to make you embarrassed and ashamed to be British.

38 Fubar

Its one of those dumbed down ultra safe constituencies where you could put a red rosette on a twenty foot high pile of decaying Canada Goose Guano which was leaking into the local water supply and causing birth defects and these simpletons would STILL vote for it.

The political stupidity of parts of the electorate north of the Watford gap truly, absolutely, knows no bounds. Almost like parts of the third world.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This type of area does not want to go through the economic cold turkey involved in moving off lengthy state dependancy and towards private sector wealth creation. They continue to vote for the party that will promise to give them the biggest fix.

36. At 11:48am on 04 Mar 2011, AS71 wrote:

"Who knows, it might free up some room for the likes of John Redwood, Douglas Carswell etc!"

Or indeed a few more Lib'Dems AS71. You know, keep it a true coalition government. Would like to see a few more Lib/Dems sitting around the table, wouldn't you AS71? Thought so! - Can't hold back on the up and coming talent.

42 AqualungCumbria

perhaps the people of Barnsley are under estimated and for once are not driven by the party and have picked a candidate who will do his best for his constituency, as should the rest of the country......as has been well proven the colour of the rosette does not mean and honest man.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The new MP, a former soldier who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, seems like a decent and honest man and has that experience of the real world that so many MPs seem to lack. I'm sure he will demonstrate considerably higher standards than the last one.

That said, the people of Barnsley would never have voted for him if he had been a Tory candidate!

26. At 11:16am on 04 Mar 2011, AndyC555 wrote:
So, let the left have their pointless celebrations, at least we know that the coalition is in until 2015 now.
=======================

Oops!

Even a die hard tory tax dodger having to admit things are so bad the conspiracy government would not dare hold a general election.

Things must really be getting bad.


Tories: taking labours mess and making it worse.

C'mon Nick, this is a story about a political party where less than 3% of the good people of Barnsley could be bothered to vote for them (although to be fair less than 40% could be bothered to vote for anyone).

Even less of us will be all that bothered about their cabinet room handbags. Next you'll be telling us there's shouting and bullying going on....

For those above being unbelievably disrespectful to the 36% of people who actually bothered to vote - why not turn your attention to the other 64%. For all the parties this is shameful.

Just because you dont like the result is no excuse to insult those who bothered to express their opinion.

35. At 11:44am on 04 Mar 2011, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
17#
House prices and sales are always going to be down at this time of year because people dont tend to move much in the winter.
=====================

I know things are very different over in Belgium, but please try to keep up with the deteriorating situation back here Fubar.

House prices are down compared with this time last year. Believe it or not, this time last year was winter time as well.

Tories (and closet tories) still in denial about the economic collapse.


Tories: taking labours mess and making it worse.

Yet anotehr drivel blog. Let's have something a lot better.

JamesPJackson@30

If only James, but I dont think Plaid or SNP supporters would necessarily jump onto a Labour bandwagon.

Current yougov shows Labour 42%, Tory 36% and LibDem 10% (others 12% which will include SNP and Plaid, but also UKIP and Greens), so arguably Torylition is holding up for now. Major test will be council elections where especially LibDems will be hoping to avoid the same treatment Labour got in 2009 at Euros.

40#

Darn, I forgot that the third world has the right to be offended as well. No doubt I'll have Hattie Harperson's European Thought Police coming and kicking in the door of my apartment this afternoon...

AndyC555 @ 26

Has 2015 been confirmed Andy? Just that up to a couple of days ago it was being challenged in Lords and there's no recourse to Commons. Suspect Torylition will be whipped into shape and you are right anyway.

Having said that, would it survive another year or 2 of colosal LibDem kickings?

Fubar @38 / AS71 @44

But the safest seats in the country are Conservative majorities - which is why the Tories need to get a higher percentage of the national vote in order to win an election. So if you want to draw a direct link between large majorities and stupidity, go ahead - but you'd have to include Surrey Heath (Con maj over 17,000) and that might raise a few eyebrows on the NR blog.

Andy 41

Certainly, the economy is on a knifes edge especially when it comes to the increases in fuel and food costs. Be interesting to see how the Chancellor deals with the crisis that is about to hit us all including I'm afraid, one or two Tory voters.

AS71

"They continue to vote for the party that will promise to give them the biggest fix."

How's the funding of the Tory party going? Still keeping in with bankers?

42#

"..the colour of the rosette..."

Indeed. I agree. I'm hoping with him being an ex-Para and ex-SFSG that he'll have a bit more of a public spirit about him than some of the rest of his cohorts that he will be mingling with on the loyal opposition benches from now on. I'm also though, quite ready to be disappointed. Having served your country in uniform, even with some distinction, is no guarantee of political wisdom and doing the right thing for the greater good.

Step forward the politician formerly known as Viscount Stansgate. Step Forward Dennis Healey. Step forward Norman Tebbit, even. Far better than a career politician who has followed the PPE-Intern-SpAd-Safe Seat Candidate-MP-Minister route... But whilst it may be "real world" experience, the forces are still, to a large degree isolated from the real world outside of the gates of the garrisons and therefore not necessarily always in touch with what the wider electorate is thinking.

Honourable as I'm sure he is, he's the first candidate to win that seat born outside of Yorkshire for nearly 70 years. The fact that Balls did the same in Morely & Outwood and that Jack "What Women Only Shortlist?" Dromey also did in Birmingham just goes to show that safe seats are always open to abuse from the party hierarchy.

Let also not forget that the previous incumbent was already under investigation last year, prior to being convicted and sentenced, and had already been marked as a known fraudster and a crook and the locals STILL voted him in. This is what happens when you let hatred cloud your judgement at the ballot box.

There is a buzz word going around, which I am sure Hague understands. However, I am pretty certain Cameron and less experienced politicians do not, and that is smart foreign policy rather than aggressive foreign policy. This seems to be the new approach by many other Countries, be smart. Hagues calm, may be because he has taken this on board and is more in turn with Britains allies than Cameron, who is looking more and more out of touch on World issues. Hague, I am pretty certain has been behind all the sensible moves to starve Gaddafi of money etc. Cameron has merely been reacting to media pressure as each new story unfolds. Gaddifi could hold on for a very long time in Libya. However moves to starve him of cash flow, will produce much quicker results than ever force of arms would do, and will prove much more effective in alienating those who support him.

Also hopefully Hague has noticed he has another problem on the horizon which is going to prove equally as difficult to deal with, that of Pakistan. Problems with Libya have taken the eye off the ball here, and could prove quite costly.

As to Barnsley, I don't think it is the actual election result which matters much. It is what it does to the morale of the Lib/Dems and the Conservatives within the Coalition who have never been comfortable with this situation.

Pity really Camerons greed for power allowed him to enter into this Coalition really. If Labour had formed one instead with the Lib/Dems, they would have ruined the economy in no time. Thus the Conservatives would have moved into power quite easily with a good mandate for Government cuts. It would also have proved once and for all, to the public of Britain, that they should move away from Labour left wing policies to more sensible Government. As it is the public is moving closer to Labour, and I dare say Cameron will move more left again, to accommodate this.

#30 no coalition stood at the GE , so what are you saying unless the get together before hand they have no mandate ?

If GB had formed one would that have had a mandate ? no is the answer then

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

"But the safest seats in the country are Conservative majorities - which is why the Tories need to get a higher percentage of the national vote in order to win an election. So if you want to draw a direct link between large majorities and stupidity, go ahead - but you'd have to include Surrey Heath (Con maj over 17,000) and that might raise a few eyebrows on the NR blog."

You quite sure about that first sentence PD? I think you'll find that the reason they need a higher percentage of the vote is because a significant number of their seats are in rural or semi rural areas where there is a lower population density, compared to the more urban areas where there are more consituencies, albeit some of them with lower numbers of voters in them. Hence the big stink that Labour were kicking up about the redrawing of the boundaries to make constituency sizes more equal. Such a measure would reduce their inbuilt advantage.

I'm not making a link between large majorities and stupidity. I'm making a link between being able to put even a known crook up as a candidate and him still being elected, even though he has ripped off the taxpayers in his constituency, however indirectly. I'm talking about blind loyalty through hatred of any opposing POV, which I consider to be particularly stupid. The seat in Glasgow which has been Labour for 70 odd years is still a slum. Has always BEEN a slum.

Nice to see that after all those years, after all that representation, after all that time, that the constituency MP's have, to a man, managed to achieve something for the wider populace who slavishly voted for them.... Not.

49#

I know you're not good at answering questions jon (come to think of it, I'm not sure if you're particularly good at anything beyond winding people up), but considering property was overpriced and overvalued, which is one of the reasons why this particular bubble went *pop*, are you suggesting that within 2 years of the credit crunch that this particular bubble should have miraculously have reflated itself and properties returned to 2007/8 levels?

And that considering lenders to this market sector were castigated for the easy credit and the mortgage deals they offered pre-crash, that they should somehow ignore the lessons of lending criteria and suddenly return to their old ways, which got them into trouble in the first place?

You express surprise that given those factors that the housing market is at best stagnant?

Are you really not that bright?

14. At 10:32am on 04 Mar 2011, jon112dk wrote:
Can he laugh off this by-election result?

The labour guy gets chucked out for outright criminality and yet the electorate re-elect labour ...

========================

Says a lot about the morals of labour voters doesn't it.

I dip back in here to get the lowdown on the unfolding events on Libya's burning sand, so that I can re-arrange the little flags on my map, and what do I find? Nick disturbing a bored-looking William Hague on his coffee break. That was a cracking joke, though.

Imagie Gove in charge of foreign affairs and he had to deal with the middle eastern situation, if he stayed true to form he would:

1. Think a "no fly" zone means stopping airlines going to Libya
2. Send the RAF to the wrong country
3. Tell the pilots to shoot down our allies' planes
4. Close the airbases down that the planes need to fly from
5. Hand out redundancy notices to the aircrew as they flew out

Gove is an incompetent, arrogant fool who is not fit to be in charge of anything.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

What the Barnsley result shows is the depth of people`s loathing for Mr.Clegg and his paper trail of broken promises.We expect them from the Tories,none more so than the conservatives themselves who have a cupboard full of stock phrases to use when it happens starting with "We didn`t know how bad things were..."Now parroted by Mr.Clegg.

They were the nice party,untainted by the compromises of office, the public could enjoy a love affair without consequence.Now they react like abandoned lovers as the beloved turns out to be balding,unfaithful and a serial liar.

I know Mr.Milliband is putting out feelers to disaffected Lib-Dems.I find that unprincipled,let them find their own way back after suitable penance.

56 Fubar

Of course in an ideal world and had all things gone to plan the party hierarchy would have wanted the new MP for Barnsley to have been an ex cricketer.

54. At 1:10pm on 04 Mar 2011, pdavies65 wrote:
Fubar @38 / AS71 @44

But the safest seats in the country are Conservative majorities - which is why the Tories need to get a higher percentage of the national vote in order to win an election. So if you want to draw a direct link between large majorities and stupidity, go ahead - but you'd have to include Surrey Heath (Con maj over 17,000) and that might raise a few eyebrows on the NR blog.

==============================

So if the Conservatives of Surrey Heath are less intelligent than the labour voters of barnsley, how come they can afford to live in more expensive houses?

JamesPJackson 59

It is not as simple as that, Arrows Possibility

No38 Fubar,
There are millions of decent,hardworking people north of Watford gap.Is it true that 13 out of 20 of the most deprived communities in the UK are to be found in London?
Did you see the interview with the UKIP candidate following the result. She seemed a bit of a fool, but at least she played her part in dumping the Tories and Lib/Dem Tory stooges in the dustbin.
I think you would enjoy a visit to the magnificient Northumbrian Coast, the unmatched beauty of the Lake District, Border Region, Peak District and the breathtaking Yorkshire Moors and Dales, and above all have the opportunity to meet the lovely people that reside there and the surrounding areas. There is no comparison with the rancid capital
Were the 3,000 people that voted UKIP simpletons?

Just a quick post as I am on my lunch break in a Private sector job somewhere in the North. It is strange that the Southern right wing cabal is out in force during working hours. Don't you have a job to go to or are you living of unearned, untaxed inherited wealth and enjoy spending your time plotting new ways to prevent young people getting the experience necessary to build careers.

Rather than honing your bigoted Southern centred prejudices, why don't you use your combined brain cell to generate the jobs that have never returned since Thatcher decimated 40% of the manufacturing industry of the country, based mainly in the North and then set us on the course of the unregulated financial services based economy that the idiotic New Labour rule compounded by spending too much unearned money generating non wealth creating jobs in the public sector!

This is the conundrum that at the moment the ConDems and Dead Ed are not getting their over educated heads around.

As far as Nic's post is concerned who cares if 2 rather intellectually challenged, over educated but unthinking middle aged rich men don't agree with each other over the foreign policy of a failing state!

JamesPJackson 59

Whoops sorry about 69, new computer.

It is not as simple as that. By my understanding, Arrows Possibility Theorem's objective is to prove that there is no perfect voting system. It is not to prove that dictatorship is the most rational decision making system. It is a very difficult theory to understand, but has been accepted by many to have proved its objective.

The democratic World of course certainly don't like it, for obvious reasons.

61. At 1:29pm on 04 Mar 2011, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
....are you suggesting that within 2 years of the credit crunch that this particular bubble should have miraculously have reflated itself and properties returned to 2007/8 levels?
======================

I'm suggesting that if your tory chums were doing a good job then the economy would be improving not getting worse.

I don't want indicators like house prices to be at some arbitrary level, just showing signs of getting better.

Simple concept fubar - the economy was in a bad way when labour got chucked out, I would like to see it getting better, it is not getting better, it is getting worse.


(What questions are these I don't answer? Other than the infamous fubar thousand worders, we rarely get an on topic comment out you, let alone a straight answer)

Fubar, Jobs and Andy.(various)
Desperate stuff boys. Having to raise the result at Barnsley yourselves in order to get your excuses in. The left don't seem to be over excited about it but you definitely are. Things are grim north of Islington...

62. At 1:31pm on 04 Mar 2011, sweetAnybody wrote:
#14. At 10:32am on 04 Mar 2011, jon112dk wrote:
Can he laugh off this by-election result?
The labour guy gets chucked out for outright criminality and yet the electorate re-elect labour ...

Says a lot about the morals of labour voters doesn't it.
=========================

Says even more about the quality of the other candidates.

64 RB

Yes, what we would have is a 'free' RAF sponsored by Sainsbury's which would not not be compulsory but strongly advised and it would be up to each individual aircraft whether they wish to odopt the no fly zone.

Cheers would go up as Britain airlifts refugees so that we could charge them baggage and handling costs, fuel tax and landing charges. Water to be charged at £10 a bottle and an out of date egg sandwich at £6 a go.

64#

And you expect that a post like that will get you taken seriously?

71. At 1:51pm on 04 Mar 2011, Spirit-of-56 wrote:

Just a quick post as I am on my lunch break in a Private sector job somewhere in the North. It is strange that the Southern right wing cabal is out in force during working hours. Don't you have a job to go to or are you living of unearned, untaxed inherited wealth and enjoy spending your time plotting new ways to prevent young people getting the experience necessary to build careers.

Rather than honing your bigoted Southern centred prejudices, why don't you use your combined brain cell to generate the jobs that have never returned since Thatcher decimated 40% of the manufacturing industry of the country, based mainly in the North and then set us on the course of the unregulated financial services based economy that the idiotic New Labour rule compounded by spending too much unearned money generating non wealth creating jobs in the public sector!
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Tetchy, tetchy.... you get what you vote for, Spirit. No point whining about it afterwards.

#68 sa

You seem to be equating intelligence with greed and selfishness.

If you think the public loathe Mr.Clegg,it`s not as much as the Tories who regard him as a jumped up pipsqueak.

The patronage so jealously guarded by the incumbent, has leached out to the undeserving and insignificant.Someone who managed a ski run in
Aviemore,an EFL teacher,an accountant and probably a tax advisor as well.

Although you and I are democrats,the tories are only by legislation not conviction, and while they have their share of rough trade, what Julian Crichtley called garagistes and arrivistes,they are only recruited into the top echelons if the gentry need a polecat to silence their critics.

They`ve had their revenge of course by destroying the Lib-Dems as a political force.Like the Godfather,if you stand by the river long enough,the bodies of your enemies come floating by.

71 - "Rather than honing your bigoted Southern centred prejudices, why don't you use your combined brain cell to generate the jobs that have never returned since Thatcher decimated 40% of the manufacturing industry of the country, based mainly in the North"

You're in the north. Why don't you?

That's the problem of many (not just in the north), you expect other people to do everything for you.

Sout:

There are millions of decent,hardworking people north of Watford gap.
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I know mate. My family roots are north of the Watford Gap. Not by much, but, north, nonetheless. Its not about their work ethic, its about their politics. And you know me, I'm not the sort to call a spade a metallic manual soil moving device.

Is it true that 13 out of 20 of the most deprived communities in the UK are to be found in London?
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I dont know my friend, is it? Who are the sitting MP's in most of those constituencies, if not all of them. Need I guess? Need I guess why they might be deprived?

Did you see the interview with the UKIP candidate following the result. She seemed a bit of a fool, but at least she played her part in dumping the Tories and Lib/Dem Tory stooges in the dustbin.
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Have to say I didnt, I'm afraid. A good result for the party, no doubt about that. Given that an analysis of how those who voted for UKIP had voted at the previous general election in that constituency showed that nearly half were former Labour & Lib Dem voters, 19% former Tory voters (cant have been that many in a constituency like that!), if that gets played out on a national scale, it could make things interesting. Particularly if AV goes ahead as well.

https://survation.com/2011/02/barnsley-central-by-election-survey-for-the-mail-on-sunday/


I think you would enjoy a visit to the magnificient Northumbrian Coast, the unmatched beauty of the Lake District, Border Region, Peak District and the breathtaking Yorkshire Moors and Dales, and above all have the opportunity to meet the lovely people that reside there and the surrounding areas. There is no comparison with the rancid capital.
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They are indeed beautiful places and I have been lucky enough to either holiday or live and work in some of the areas you mention. In fairness, the capital has its own, very different attractions, on a personal and professional basis. Only a true "never go outside the M25" southerner wouldnt appreciate the beauty of these places. I dont think theres that many of them left these days.

Were the 3,000 people that voted UKIP simpletons?
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Hah. Open to conjecture my friend, very much open to conjecture! Recovering simpletons, perhaps!!

Hague didn't take the advice of education secretary Gove? How very sensible of him.

71 - "This is the conundrum that at the moment the ConDems and Dead Ed are not getting their over educated heads around.

As far as Nic's post is concerned who cares if 2 rather intellectually challenged, over educated..."

You seem to have a problem with 'education'. Is that typical in the north? Might explain a few things.

#43 winifred112

You forgot winifred112.

It uses the tired old techniques of the Arrow Theorem Fallacy to make claims about the impossibility of democrtic decison making.

It makes the same mistake as the Theorem, refusing to allow electors to vote on OUTCOMES (eg yo ucaan vote for the Lib Dems or the Tories but not on how you feel about the Coalition that results)"

If the Arrow Theorem fixated the LSE alumni on process rather than outcome,they have surely been given a salutary lesson in the last few days.Scandal,resignation and inquiry.Go back and wave your thesis in their stupid faces.

"They were the nice party,untainted by the compromises of office, the public could enjoy a love affair without consequence.Now they react like abandoned lovers as the beloved turns out to be balding,unfaithful and a serial liar."

How naive was that? If, as Labour always tells us, political leopards never change their spots - especially tory ones ("same old tories, same old nasty party, same old blahblahblah....") - I dont suppose any of them ever asked themselves why the party had not been in government for 80 odd years?

"I know Mr.Milliband is putting out feelers to disaffected Lib-Dems.I find that unprincipled,let them find their own way back after suitable penance."

Well, considering how much his dancing bear-like chain is being yanked by the unions in return for the funding that keeps the party on a life-support machine, he has to turn tricks wherever he can, doesnt he? Money always surpasses principles in politics these days. Even if its offering disaffected quasi-left Liberals an alternative form of shelter for a quid a go... their moneys as good as anyone elses. Not that they'll ever see anything in return for it, mind you.


Unless they see more postings like this from Labour party members/activists on twitter....

"Drinking champagne at the Ken Livingstone Gala Dinner at the Globe. Second evening in a row in Ed Miliband's presence."*

*Labour Party member. EMids NPF Youth Rep, Young Labour National Committee. LSE student.

A lot of people are implying that todays topic is not worthy - they think the story should be about Labours win in Barnsley and how it should be extrapolated as proof that there should be a general election.

Get over it, Labour most certainly lost the last election and that is the one that counts.

They could put-up a monkey & still win Barnsley, besides turn-out was very low.

Either the Prime-Minister will decide the timing of the next election or the calender will; it will certainly not be the Barnsley electorate or opinion polls.

How about this as a topic ....,on QT last night Margaret Beckett thought it 'equivalent' for a Govt she belonged, to actively 'help/assist' in the process of releasing a convicted passenger plane bomber with that of the evasion from justice of a (unknown and un-convicted) killer of WPC Yvonne Fletcher - I think it was fair to say the Tory Govt at the time were reluctant in letting the diplomatic staff leave the country.

Younger voters may well believe Margaret Beckett's re-writing of history, but I still find it laughable that she rose to high office.

54 pd

But the safest seats in the country are Conservative majorities - which is why the Tories need to get a higher percentage of the national vote in order to win an election. So if you want to draw a direct link between large majorities and stupidity, go ahead - but you'd have to include Surrey Heath (Con maj over 17,000) and that might raise a few eyebrows on the NR blog.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm not suggesting that they are stupid pd, just that anyone who promises to rob Peter to pay Paul can always rely on the support of Paul.

73#

So you are expecting the bubble to be reflated then. Naive...

74#

Desperate? Where do you get that from? What excuses? For what?

71 Spirit of 56

Agree with much of what you say.The de-industrialization, and the unbalancing of the economy towards financial services.

It`s very hard to get people to talk about structure and process on political blogs starting with Mr.Robinson himself.There is also a southern and more specifically a Londoncentric view which excludes areas north of Watford.

Devolution was intended to remedy that rather than being an agent of nationalism and separatism.Unfortunately the economic forces now in play can only exacerbate that situation.

45 Mr N

Or indeed a few more Lib'Dems AS71. You know, keep it a true coalition government. Would like to see a few more Lib/Dems sitting around the table, wouldn't you AS71? Thought so! - Can't hold back on the up and coming talent.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Enough LibDems in there already for me! Have you anyone in mind Mr N?

Spirit-of-56 71

Well your post is bigoted, so I really do not see what you are complaining about.

As to jobs for young people, the problems are much deeper than you think. The Labour Government ruined Britains economy and private pensions. Along with this Britain has been a spend culture instead of a save one, all of which means people need to stay on longer at work to pay off mortgages and have enough of a pension to retire. The retirement age has had to go up also, because Britain cannot afford the cost of state pensions. Some people now will have to work till they drop frankly. This of course does not free up jobs fo young people. The other one is the state of Britains education system. Young people leave education without the qualifications that employers need in the work place. Useless degrees are taken, which bear no resemblance to the needs of the economy. A lot of young people have no work ethic and cannot read or write to any standard. That is why skilled immigrants have had to be brought in to do the jobs our people cannot do.

Another reason was Labour did not create jobs in the private sector during the boom years, preferring instead to spend the money on expanding the public sector instead.

One more reason was the flood of immigration, these people took the jobs our people were too lazy to do, preferring instead to remain on benefits.


All this has nothing at all to do with Thatcher.

Rather 'off topic', but what does Britain's Deputy Prime Minister, Nicholas Clegg, do all day?

Perhaps we should insist on having a Deputy PMQs in the House of Commons?

Oh well. POETS day. TTFN!

79. At 2:04pm on 04 Mar 2011, eye-wish wrote:
#68 sa

You seem to be equating intelligence with greed and selfishness.

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If greed and selfishness were all it took to be wealthy, you'd find far fewer Labour supporters living off benefits.

#62. At 1:31pm on 04 Mar 2011, sweetAnybody wrote:
"Says a lot about the morals of labour voters doesn't it."

I'm sure someone else will pick this up...but are you serious? If we're holding voters to account for previous politicians' behaviour, then Tory voters should be ashamed of themselves for opposing Catholic emancipation and the Reform Bill. But that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

Cherist, that comment was so unworthy, I'm almost ashamed of myself.

You see what you get provoked into by the class warrior wannabe, spitefully envious, labour till I die brigade?

"86. At 2:17pm on 04 Mar 2011, bryhers wrote:
It uses the tired old techniques of the Arrow Theorem Fallacy to make claims about the impossibility of democrtic decison making.

It makes the same mistake as the Theorem, refusing to allow electors to vote on OUTCOMES (eg yo ucaan vote for the Lib Dems or the Tories but not on how you feel about the Coalition that results)"

If the Arrow Theorem fixated the LSE alumni on process rather than outcome,they have surely been given a salutary lesson in the last few days.Scandal,resignation and inquiry.Go back and wave your thesis in their stupid faces."


When you find the blog this was supposed to be posted on, you will remember to post it there as well, won't you?

With a combination of fast spending cuts,an oil spike,import inflation and tax rises,it is demand that`s vulnerable.

Its effects will be felt on the sectors of the economy that are weakest and will be similar in its effect to the banking collapse.Import inflation and the oil spike affects the global economy.All importing countries will suffer a decline in domestic demand and living standards.Ours will be particularly sharp because the external shocks are superimposed on rapid internal reduction of demand.

The large corporations including banks have been cutting costs and hoarding money,are unlikely to be in the front line of a future crisis although I would not exclude it given they have previous.

Its impact will be to savage small and medium business,retailing and jobs.Barring a catastrophic fall in energy production,big capital will remain intact.The outcome of the coming crisis will depend on what happens to the rest of us.As I wrote earlier."The British Street will rock to the sound of the Arab spring."