The European charm offensive

'The Tory party is itself an uneasy coalition of Euro sceptics, Euro pragmatists and those who want Britain out of the EU altogether.'

In other words the Tory party reflects public opinion very well on this issue, unlike the Euro fanatical parties of the left.

I think the euro crises is effectively neutering the EU fanatics for the time being so I'm sure Dave will be able to handle the Lib Dems OK.

This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain.

We have a new type of rule now. Not one-man rule, or rule of aristocracy or plutocracy, but of small groups elevated to positions of absolute power by random pressures and subject to political and economic factors that leave little room for decision.

They are representatives of abstract forces who have reached power through surrender of self. The iron-willed dictator is a thing of past.

There will be no more Stalins, no more Hitlers.

The rulers of this most insecure of all worlds are rulers by accident. Inept, frightened pilots at the controls of a vast machine they cannot understand, calling in experts to tell them which buttons to push.

William S. Burroughs

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The Tory party is itself an uneasy coalition of Euro sceptics, Euro pragmatists and those who want Britain out of the EU altogether.

Just the Tory Party? It's a cross party issue and I agree with Saga's cleverly worded post on the previous blog.

By the way Saga, a true gentleman would carry the baguette rather than have the French Girl struggle with it.

#1 - jobsagoodin

"Tory party reflects public opinion very well on this issue . . . " - "an uneasy coalition of Euro sceptics, Euro pragmatists and those who want Britain out of the EU altogether".

Ah, OK. So British public opinion is sceptical, pragmatic and separatist all at the same time. Very good. This begins to sound less like schizophrenia and more like multiple personality disorder every day. I for one simply wish the Tories would stop squabbling and come up with a policy.

"1. At 6:48pm on 21 May 2010, jobsagoodin wrote:

'The Tory party is itself an uneasy coalition of Euro sceptics, Euro pragmatists and those who want Britain out of the EU altogether.'

In other words the Tory party reflects public opinion very well on this issue, unlike the Euro fanatical parties of the left."

Speak for yourself...

Oh great! More anti-coalition propaganda. Booooooring.

Change the record.

The agency for the EU bail out of Greece is the European Central Bank.Of the E750 billion raised,Germany is the main paymaster.

It is logical therefore that the EU wants to centralize control of member`s budgets to prevent irresponsible governments from making demands in the future and threatening the survival of the Euro.

Because this represents a transfer of powers to a more federal structure it needs a revision of the constitution,something Cameron rejects through his power of veto.

Cameron`s anxiety is not his eurosceptics but the public, who may treat the promised referendum as a verdict on continuing membership.

Meanwhile the Eurozone,with its confused national policies is undergoing huge economic strains.

The European project is damaged,if it goes further Britain loses its main market and will be blamed for impeding the budgetary control which could moderate the crisis.

The Europeans see themselves as having reponsibility without power,the EU has no control of the economic policy of member states.This adds political instability to economic tensions.

Standing on one side of this is Cameron and his veto,a brake on the change many Europeans see as essential.I expect European policy to be at least as important as the deficit in defining the new government.

Enough, our new PM has hit the ground running & good luck to him.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

10 bryhers

"It is logical therefore that the EU wants to centralize control of member`s budgets to prevent irresponsible governments from making demands in the future and threatening the survival of the Euro."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No reason for the UK to get too involved in this, we have our own currency, fiscal and monetary policy. Must be plenty of people in Germany and France who wished they had retained their own.

Difficult to see how a single currency can work when you have very different fiscal standards, with the Club Med countries being subsidised by more disciplined economies. It seems pretty clear that Greece needs to exit and devalue and possibly Spain as well.

UK is in a better position than Germany or France on this one, as we are not being tapped for cash we don't have and our banks are less exposed.

Bringing charm to the European "party" should be absolutely no problem for David Cameron, because that is all he is...all talk,no ability and no idea in selecting the correct people for the job ie. Boy George as Chancellor...what a joke!!!!
Regards, Gordon Hutchison

I am not sure about this; the time has come for a fundamental reassessment of what the European Community is about.

The problems with the Euro have highlighted the problem of operating a single currency across mulitiple countries where there is no homogenous budgetary policy. Moves towards a single state are not the answer so I suspect that the UK electorate will be very willing to support David Cameron's line about no further transfers of power to Brussels without a referendum.

If the Liberal Democrats demurred I think that in the current crisis they would look rather silly.

Neither Mrs Merkel nor Mr Sarkozy are enjoying fullsome support from their own electorates so this is a good time for the UK to take a firm line.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

21 May 2010, AS71 wrote:
10 bryhers

"It is logical therefore that the EU wants to centralize control of member`s budgets to prevent irresponsible governments from making demands in the future and threatening the survival of the Euro."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"No reason for the UK to get too involved in this, we have our own currency, fiscal and monetary policy. Must be plenty of people in Germany and France who wished they had retained their own"

But of course we are involved,Europe is our main market,and we are involved politically with a power to block the trend towards economic centralization imposed by the need to oversee national economies like Greece.

Without this control it will not be politically possible for Germany to continue its support .The risk to Britain is a second financial crisis as government`s default on their debt if this is withdrawn.

Make no mistake Britain is involved.The difficulty will be staying on the sidelines if the Eurozone continues to convulse.

Gordon Hutchinson #14

Do you really consider George Osborne as Chancellor to be a joke?

I consider that Gordon Browns tenure of that office was a tragedy.

No one leaves the euro room because the EU politicians will not allow it.

The PIGS will restructure their economies to become more competitive.

Bill Emmott writing in The Times said that the Thatcherite road is the only game in town left for the eurozone.

I would not have put it quite like that myself but for sure there will be a rebalancing away from the welfare state amongst the PIGS towards more dynamic market economies.

An EU sovereign fund will probably be created ala the US Fed, so that the 'wolves' go hungry as the pack attempts to destabilise the weaker EU members.

Eventually, the wolfpack may turn on easier pickings outside of the eurozone, which may include this nearly bankrupt country.

Then we may change our tune about the euro.

17 bryhers

You are right that we are involved, but my point was that we should not become "too involved".

Central oversight of Eurozone members is essential if the Euro is going to survive this crisis, I think that it will survive but may lose a few economic laggards and/or require a devaluation. That said, the EU would hardly seem qualified to audit any organisation's budget given its own record in this area.

There is absolutely no reason for the UK to submit its budgets to central EU control and there is no way Cameron will agree to do so. Why would we want to be bound by rules of a club that we are not members of?

I'm not in favour of withdrawal from the EU, but I think that the benefits of membership are overstated, as are the drawbacks of leaving.

If a treaty needs to be ammended or created so as to protect Europe from economic collapse, David Cameron would be wrong to veto it.

On the '"Cameron's Three Coalitions" thread, its_an_outrage #79 wrote: '"Europe needs to stand up for itself and counter the imminent chinese and russian threats!

Indeed. And also, perhaps, to be taken seriously by the US."

I thought it already was. Will you please elaborate on the specific ways in which we don't take Europe seriously?

On an aside, let no Briton fairly complain from now on about the US president visiting Canada, Mexico, or any Latin American country first upon taking office. Both Brown and Cameron's first foreign trips after having taken office were to France. But when Obama visited Canada and Bush (before him) Mexico? Everyone acted as though he had taken a wholly inappropriate and unprecedented action, questioning if any severe rifts had developed between the US and UK. If British prime ministers can go to France and Germany first, then we should be allowed to do the same within our neighborhood.

It doesn't matter who is in charge, the Tories love Europe. Look how well they did in the EU elections last year. And how can David Cameron be a free market Tory if the market wants a single currency?

The "EU" stinks!

Page 19 of the coalition 'programme for government' states:

"no further powers should be transferred to Brussels without a referendum"

and

"We will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that treaty – a ‘referendum lock’. We will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that the use of any passerelle would require primary legislation."

William Hague confirmed this in an interview with John Sopel (BBC News) on May 20th and David Cameron reiterated this loudly and clearly at the joint press conference with German Chancellor, Angel Merkel on May 21st.

Let's hope the Conservatives stick to this unequivocal pledge.

The problem is we already know the Lib Dems simply cannot be trusted on this issue. When Brown decided to break his promise and sign the Lisbon constitutional treaty without a referendum, Clegg instructed his troops to abstain in the House of Commons. In the House of Lords, Lib Dem peers voted against a referendum, despite the fact that it was a pledge in their own 2005 manifesto.

David Cameron has gone out of his way to accommodate the party that came third - indeed most would say he has gone much too far. But for the Conservatives, as the largest party in the coalition, this now has to be a red line issue.

The Lib Dems have signed up to this joint-declaration and must be held to it. If Clegg attempts to back-track as he did previously, he must understand this will bring the coalition to an end.

It is up to Cameron to make clear he means to keep the Lib Dems to their side of the bargain.

# 21. Justin

"If a treaty needs to be ammended or created so as to protect Europe from economic collapse, David Cameron would be wrong to veto it."

On the contrary.

Nobody wants a European economic collapse, but the problems have been caused in part by a one-size-fits-all currency and the total ineptitude of the EU itself. The EU is hugely wasteful - and don't forget the auditors would not sign off the accounts for 15 years in a row. Simply giving the EU yet more powers to sort out the mess it created is not the answer.

The EU badly needs reform - not the type envisaged by the Lisbon constitutional treaty, but a return to a 'common market' trading block instead of the European Super State apparently favoured by France and Germany.

This is a good opportunity for Britain and England particularly and its 50 m population.

This is a good opportunity for David Cameron, large and small 'c' conservatives as the EU is not working and needs full Treaty amendments and Brussels will now be forced to ASK countries like Britain for our permission to amend the badly drafted and eurocrat power-mad treaties that render the UK an Outer Hebridean like European quality regarding sovereignty and other issues.

Thank goodness we have David Cameron there - just at the right time to carry out these negotiations with a strong voice for the English vote that gave hime power in the coalition and the keys to NO 10 Downing St.

Thank goodness that Labour are out of power in this critical phase of the EU that is critical for the England and the UK.

Thank goodness that we stand a chance now for the first time since those idiots e.g. Heath and Brown signed us up for the EU and loss of sovereignty etc.

Thank goodness - this is the opportunity Britain needed for EU reform - this is it - we can remove the shackles of Brussels and get a fairer and balanced relationship with Europe.

This is it - we now stand a chance!

After enduring week after week of Nick and his obsession with Lord Ashcroft, which didn't prevent Labour losing, we appear to be entering a new Nick where we will get endless blogs designed to weaken or destroy the coalition government.

Very poor if this continues and will no doubt result in only one contributor, namely, Saga.

Nick didn't take the hint from hundreds of contributors to drop the Ashcroft vendetta, I hope he reads comments this time and stops concentrating on the weaknesses of the coalition, and looks at the pros and cons of their agreed policies.

#14

I think you are Gordon Brown in disguise

#18

Me too

I am not totally sure about the impartiality of this; he repeats "euro-pragmatists" to discuss Euro enthusiasts. The implication here being that the other groups are not pragmatic, and therefore fanatics. He also mentions daily mail readers, which is normally the sort of talk you get in Guardian articles. There is quit

I'm sure there are a few pro Europeans in the Tory party,I think 'Euro pragmatist' sounds a bit weasly. Additionally,the Liberal Democrats have a few less fervent pro Europeans in their midst,and the Labour party have quite a lot too.The problem is for David Cameron,is that this EU financial emergency affects all EU members,whether or not they are in or out of the Euro.He has to be seen to be part of the solution in Europe not part of the problem. If he refuses to engage positively with the EU,it could cause a lot of problems for the UK over the next 5 years,something I am sure he knows all too well.The main problem is dealing with the Tory frothing tendency,some of whom might be happier joining UKIP anyway.

The unpleasantness of many of your commentators and their naked self interest make me despair for my country and seriously consider moving into the Eu despite its obvious problems. Every time I travel in europe I become more aware of how backward we have become as we regress towards a replay of victorian england and its blatant abuse of power and status. Any attempt create an egalitarian society is met with violent abuse, a colonial mindset from the past, as if the powerful have the right to serfs and slaves.

#14 "Bringing charm to the European "party" should be absolutely no problem for David Cameron, because that is all he is...all talk,no ability and no idea in selecting the correct people for the job ie. Boy George as Chancellor...what a joke!!!! Regards, Gordon Hutchison"

This was how politics had become with the advent of the spin doctor. It's a social phenomenon, devoid of intellectual substance. It's tribal. It's full of playground jibes like that above.

I hope the coalition will see the end of this tribalism. It certainly has not in the media, which is fed by it. Most of the comments on here are erudite and substantial.

I hope we can keep it that way.

Nautonier(28) wrote:"Thank goodness that we stand a chance now for the first time since those idiots e.g. Heath and Brown signed us up for the EU and loss of sovereignty etc." Sorry you should only give credit where credit is due. As an Euro enthusiast I know that the person who gave up more sovereignty than any other before or since was Margaret Thatcher. The logic of the economic need to create a level playing field in a single European market appealed to her and so she voted for the Maastricht treaty. Hence the biggest driver to pooling sovereignty has not been as the any supposedly deranged socialist euro visionary but the free market economics espoused by the right wing of the Conservative Party.

Nick you have forgoton that there is at least one Europhile in the tory party.

Or does Ken Clarke not count any more?

I see all the little Englanders are out in force again today.

Tsk-tsk.

Europe will 'kill'/ (rip apart) the Tory party as it has done in the past. The problem is that there is a wealthy rump that lives in the past with their moats and duck houses and private off shore banks and this libertarian wing although not the complete party by any means hates everyone else.

What this will do to the coalition is anyone's guess.

We are however likely to suffer badly at the margin and be further marginalised by the stupid policy of suggesting that we will veto all change as Cameron did yesterday even when there is no serious suggestion of change. He must learn quickly both to keep his powder dry and shut up or the country will suffer badly. Simply you do not reveal your hand until the negotiations actually start. To go around saying that you will destroy all suggestions of change in a club of equals soon get you ostracised, ignored, bypassed and that is the terrible mistake he made yesterday. We have been condemned to the outer ignored fringe of Europe by this one stupid mistake and unless it is rectified we will suffer badly economically - perhaps that is what he wants - to damage the country's businesses.

13. At 10:29pm on 21 May 2010, AS71 wrote:

No reason for the UK to get too involved in this, we have our own currency, fiscal and monetary policy. Must be plenty of people in Germany and France who wished they had retained their own.

***********************************

Having been off the blog for a week while visiting friends in Northern France, I can confirm that comment. Many people in France feel the same way as most of us UK sceptics. And this comes from people who live in an area of France where most of the EU rules and regulations are either not adopted or ignored when they are.

36. laughingdevil wrote:
#Nick you have forgoton that there is at least one Europhile in the tory party.

#Or does Ken Clarke not count any more?

Don't forget Mr Gummer and many others I suspect.

Politicians soon learn the trick of riding many horses simultaneously, so David Cameron will handle three coalitions.

But what about us?

Are we 'European' in the way that, for example, a Texan or a Californian is firstly an American.

In my view, it will be a very long time before people across Europe, but especially here in this little island, think of themselves as primarily Europeans.

Europe as a coherent political institution needs to acquire some decent history first.

Traditionally, that usually occurs via adversity, e.g. wars, which is the reason why the EU exists in the first instance, but we cannot do war anymore as a developed nation against developed nation as it is simply too destructive so the EU should, over time, develop in a creative, constructive way, that European citizens can become proud of.

Our political stance as semi-detached members of the EU may be highly pragmatic at this juncture, but, in my opinion, it is not something to be particularly proud of and eventually we English, England; should become fully engaged players in the EU enterprise.

5. At 09:01am on 22 May 2010, frankowensmate wrote:

Nautonier(28) wrote:"Thank goodness that we stand a chance now for the first time since those idiots e.g. Heath and Brown signed us up for the EU and loss of sovereignty etc." Sorry you should only give credit where credit is due. As an Euro enthusiast I know that the person who gave up more sovereignty than any other before or since was Margaret Thatcher. The logic of the economic need to create a level playing field in a single European market appealed to her and so she voted for the Maastricht treaty. Hence the biggest driver to pooling sovereignty has not been as the any supposedly deranged socialist euro visionary but the free market economics espoused by the right wing of the Conservative Party.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You're over concerned with the old politics - what matters now is what is in the 'national interest' - it doesn't matter who was write or wrong (but I would disagree strongly with the left wing Gordon Brown Lisbon Treaty 'Commie-kaze' record on Europe).

You're right about the right wing of the Conservative party - but only in as far as their predictable rhetoric has moved them virtually nowhere since the 1980's.

We now have a Prime Minister and a coalition who can put the English majority of 50m first - if this makes me a so called Little Englander then I'm rather proud to be one.

Europe will have to come to the UK and ask for favours - and the UK can ask for favours in return - that is the point and we now have (for the first time in 13 years) a Prime Minister who will not ignore 50m people in England and put their interests first.

The 'Commie-Kaze's' have lost the UK economy, the European argument and thank goodness, the election - and Britain now has an emergent and strong negotiating position on Europe and a very capable and earnest Prime Minister and deputy Prime Minister who can re-shape Britain's relationship with Europe - in the national interest.

Europe is everything about pragamatic politics and now e have the right Prime Minister in the right place at the right timea albeit under very stressful economic conditions.

'Commie-Kaze' Brown's Great UK Depression can now, ironically, be the catalyst for saving Britain from being engulfed by the wrong type of European centralising, bureacratic, dictatorial Europe that has and is still providing costs and benefits to the UK - but arguably too many economic and social 'costs' for the actual and perceived benefits.

This is it - this is 'our' chance in a new 'two-tier' or 'multi-tier' Europe that can 'centralise' further or fracture to the point of becoming a left wing monolithic bureacratic centre governed dictatorship as Brussels struggles to control Eurozone economics by wrestling more and more economic power over individual countries towards Brussels/Germany/Benelux (with some 'independent' countries in the second or higher/lower tiers) .

Europe cannot function with a Euro currency and multiple central/national banks - some countries will need to have dual currencies i.e their own national currency AND the euro currency in order to keep going economically with their own currency virtually worthless outside of their own country.

This is the new politics many have been asking for - real European politics. The Tories and Lib Dems can hold the centre ground in British politics indefinitely - if any parties or party can successfully hold the English vote - then they will stay in power indefinately and keep the 'Commie-Kaze's' out.

The so called far right of the Tory party are of no more use than the 'Commie-Kazes'.

The UK /England have the right people (politicians) in the right places regarding Europe for the first time perhaps since WW2 - amidst all of the global doom and bad news - Brown and his rotten government are out of power and we now have a chink of sunlight shining on UK/England.

42. nautonier

What on earth is this conflation UK/England?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/7750235/David-Cameron-will-rue-the-day-he-betrayed-the-Conservatives.html

The right-wing feel betrayed by Cameron. That is the biggest danger to Liberal Dave and the coalition in this first year.

Nice to know that the Tories are balanced on this issue. Lets hope they're not the only ones.

43. At 11:01am on 22 May 2010, Aiki Doki wrote:

42. nautonier

What on earth is this conflation UK/England?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What's a conflation?

46. nautonier

conflation is the fusing of two items to make one, but as England is part of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland I find "UK/England" a bit odd.

What I also find odd is that implication that the Government prior to this one did not have a majority of MPs from English constituencies.

All of the previous 6 UK governments have had been formed by a majority of MPs from English constituencies, as have the cabinets.

So the UK government has been and probably always will be what the voters of English constituencies want. We live in a parliamentary democracy, not a dictatorship.

Only in the very rare case like the 2010 election will we get a different situation.

Next time DC has all the European Leaders in London, for tea and biscuits, he should invite them to a screening of "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines"...

That should do the trick, re the charm offensive...!

#38, John_from_Hendon wrote:
... that is the terrible mistake he made yesterday. We have been condemned to the outer ignored fringe of Europe by this one stupid mistake ...

Over-egging it a bit John.

47. At 11:38am on 22 May 2010, Aiki Doki wrote:

46. nautonier

conflation is the fusing of two items to make one, but as England is part of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland I find "UK/England" a bit odd.

What I also find odd is that implication that the Government prior to this one did not have a majority of MPs from English constituencies.

All of the previous 6 UK governments have had been formed by a majority of MPs from English constituencies, as have the cabinets.

So the UK government has been and probably always will be what the voters of English constituencies want. We live in a parliamentary democracy, not a dictatorship.

Only in the very rare case like the 2010 election will we get a different situation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A. There is no confusion - the election shows that the small 'c' conservatives have a majority in England whereas the Labour government majority in 1997 had a national majority but had taken more seats that were previously/historically 'conservative'.

In other words, the 2010 election result split between England and the rest of the UK is very pronounded indeed.

2010 was not a rare occasion - that will be the norm going forward - providing the small 'c' conservatives hold the middle ground and do not drift to the so called right.

This is about England - the 50 million people in England.

England/UK - once the small 'c' conservatives realise how on to hold power (it's taken a few hundred years for them to get there) - we can look forward to something much better (Blair lied in 1997 seized the centre ground of British politics and then we've paid the price for that).

Perhaps the small 'c' conservative have got the message now as it is is about England v UK ... England and UK... England and UK... England and the rest.

However, you wish to describe it ... the 'UK' Government now represents the interests of 'England' - we need English politics discussed now in Europe for the first time in 20 + years.

No one can claim to represent the whole of the UK - that is nonsense - a conflation that is altruistic and unrealistic. All governments try but fail to do this ... but at least the 50 million in England are now or should now be put first insetad of being ignored by our 'national government'.

It is such a constitutional mess - even trying to discuss this is 'conflationery' (was Gordo conflated or just ... something else?)

All parties are a coalition.

Perhaps when people understand that they will stop the incessant chatter about how the coalition can possibly work with such a diverse range of views. A range of views is both healthy and normal.

So let's hope the British media can find it in themselves to leave off the pathetic "love-in" nonsense and focus on the issues. They could, for example, follow up the facts (look that word up, Nick) on the letters of instruction that were demanded by civil servants in the closing days of the Labour administration. That is REAL news that has hardly been scratched by our so-called press.

Why? Because the art of journalism is all but dead here in the UK. Journalists have turned into bloggers sitting around expressing their opinions instead of doing the real donkey work that a real journalist does in talking to people, unearthing the truth.

The only fuel for the blogging community of journalism is speculation and opinion and that is a waste of everyone's time and in the case of the BBC, of taxpayers' money.

A German journalist was interviewed recently and he stated two reasons why the coalition will have less of a chance here than in other parts of Europe:

(1) There is no chance of a "grand coalition" (of all major parties), since politics is far more "tribal" in nature.

(2) The British media is different and will try to find ways to break it apart.

And so far he's been proved right.

Thing is I remember voting on whether the UK should go into the Common Market and I voted against. I don't remember being asked if I wanted to be controlled by the European Union - a different thing entirely. There's been control creep over my adult life and while I applaud some of the things that the EU have achieved (on the environment, for example), there is more evidence than ever that 'they' want a federal Europe. The funding regimes are suspect too - the JESSICA programme for instance suggests that we can fund projects by putting public assets (land and buildings) into a holding fund to 'match fund' and generate more money for projects. In other words, we mortgage land and property that is in public ownership. Funnily enough, the European Investment Bank can do this for you (although you don't have to go to them). So, we let them have our assets - what happens if markets or projects fail? Well, what happens if you remortgage your house to raise money and then you don't keep up the repayments? The EU is also now proposing that because of the financial crisis they want to see nation states accounts and financial plans BEFORE they are approved by that nation! Oh, and there's to be a European Diplomatic Service - think they can teach the UK anything about diplomacy? I think not.

Well done to David Cameron for saying enough is enough! And I don't even vote Tory. The Common Market was about trade not about political and social control. We should trade with the whole world like we used to and not confine ourselves - that's what put the Great into Great Britain - there's talk about 'we're in a global economy now' - WE always were! And we should not go any further with the EU - in fact, we should be looking to take back what is rightfully ours and what previous generations fought for - our freedom and right to self determination without fear or favour!

37. At 09:23am on 22 May 2010, If I want your opinion I will rattle your cage wrote:


"I see all the little Englanders are out in force again today.

Tsk-tsk."

If you are serious:

Since we were promised a referendum on the political toxic waste called the Constitution which was subsequently relabelled the Lisbon Treaty but smelt just as bad and since about 82% wanted that referendum and 70% wanted to vote NO you should not be surprised that there is ongoing resistance. You should just think yourself damn lucky that it is not violent resistance given what arrogant, multi-faced, manipulative, selfish, anti-democratic "EU"-lovers have done to us.

I do not advocate violent resistance until the "EU" is overtly fascist as opposed to being covertly fascist as it is now.

Your use of the phrase "Little Englanders" is about your problem with democracy.

The next thing Cameron needs to sort out is devolution - I can't speak for any other part of the UK but it's not working in Wales - WAG controls everything. Indeed, this election has exposed something - that Westminster more than ever is not concerned with the areas outside England - at least under the old system we didn't have to put up with the poor decision making in Cardiff Bay. Let's hope the new Secretary of State for Wales does realise what is going on and does something about it.
One thing she does need to do - make sure any referendum on further devolution is run by a completely independent body with no connection to Wales - the last referendum was dodgy to say the least and a complete cover up about voting discrepancies.

The Welsh speaking minority have it stitched up and something needs to be done about it(only 20% of the Welsh population have a knowledge of Welsh despite all the money spent implementing the Welsh Language Act). The latest madness is that in my area they want to get rid of 6th forms in English medium schools but let the Welsh medium schools keep them. English speakers therefore can go to 6th form colleges away from home and their friends, while the Welsh speakers (who revert to English the minute they leave the school gates) can stay put. Now this is being done under the guise of budget cuts, etc. and there is an element of that, but it's more to do with what the minority Welsh lobby wants - and they're not listening! In fact, there is money on the table for education authorities who implement this - so why isn't the money available for schools to spend on education? I ask the questions but get no answers - they just don't respond if they don't like the question.

Welsh is being rammed down our throats (I don't mind if someone wants to learn it - great, but it's no use in the big wide world and is taking hours of more useful learning away from our kids who need to be able to compete in that world) and costing us a fortune (£250,000 to translate WAG proceedings into Welsh each year) - can you imagine what could be done with that elsewhere? Thank goodness for commonsense at last - WAG have recently decided to stop this - I suspect mostly because they've been caught out.

The WAG would have you believe 'we're different in Wales' - we're not! We're British mostly from the same roots and we all want good education, health services, etc. and we're not getting that under devolution - it's not about money either, it's about attitudes - the Welsh nation is inward and backward looking as they ever were - that's what holds them back not being downtrodden by England or given less money.

Seems reasonable that if a number of separate countries share the same currency, there should be some rules around things like the size and duration of deficit/surplus each can run. Thought there were, actually, but perhaps not strong enough and not sufficiently enforceable. Is there a suitable treaty on its way? One must hope so.

Afternoon Nick and company.
With out Mr Cameron showing his face in negotiations with Europe who else are you going to trade with?
Better than jetting off to the states every five minutes like brown trying to look important.
And why all this air time to the labour party beeb they are finished.
Give the partnership a chance to show it can deliver the goods.
And stop the likes of this silly British airways strikes when the country needs every penny it can get.
sack the lot of them Mr Walsh and start afresh there are others willing to work out there.who are unable to get a job.
Don't cave in to them.

41. At 10:50am on 22 May 2010, JohnConstable wrote:
In my view, it will be a very long time before people across Europe, but especially here in this little island, think of themselves as primarily Europeans.

That's true. The problem (I see it as a problem, but understand that others don't) is compounded by the fact that not everyone means the same thing when they talk about 'Europe'. We know what are the legal boundaries and member states of the EU, or rather, we know that there are boundaries. I'm sure that most of you could, but I confess that I certainly couldn't name them all. There are some countries that I'm not sure whether they are in or not. Some that might be full members and some not. I could look it up, but I'm probably not going to.
When I think of 'Europe', I think of France, Holland, Germany, Belgium Italy, Spain, Austria, Greece and I feel that we should be strengthening ties, not cutting them. I don't think of Poland et al much at all, but I'll bet the Germans do. What next? Turkey? Ukraine? Georgia? Russia? No way Pedro.
So if people feel the same way as I do, and I suspect that many do, we're each talking about our own, differing ideas of what Europe actually is, let alone what it should be.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

PS I don't advocate that there are loads of pilots out there that can be replace at the drop of a hat .
In the same contention you don't need a diploma to push a trolley up and down the isle either or show where the exits are.

22. At 01:44am on 22 May 2010, PursuitOfLove wrote:
On the '"Cameron's Three Coalitions" thread, its_an_outrage #79 wrote: '"Europe needs to stand up for itself and counter the imminent chinese and russian threats!

Indeed. And also, perhaps, to be taken seriously by the US."

I thought it already was. Will you please elaborate on the specific ways in which we don't take Europe seriously?

Hi Pursuit. Firstly I should say that I didn't write the first part of your quote, and if I had I would probably have worded it differently.

I did write the reply though and one, brief elaboration that is currently in the news is extradition.

Regarding your previous post, which suggested that the fact that Obama visited Canada and Mexico before the UK created a political stir, I have to say that I've never heard it mentioned and am astonished to hear that anyone was surprised or offended by this. Unless perhaps you're referring to the British media? I sincerely hope you don't take them seriously!

At 11:29pm on 21 May 2010, sevenstargreen wrote:
Gordon Hutchinson #14
"Do you really consider George Osborne as Chancellor to be a joke?
I consider that Gordon Browns tenure of that office was a tragedy."


Marx put it better: "History repeats itself,the first time as tragedy,the second as farce."

Wouldn't it be best for the long term good of the Tory Party if the substantial faction of UKippers and NHS Abolitionists showed some honesty and integrity by breaking away and forming their own hard right alliance with UKIP or whoever?

AS 71 20

"Central oversight of Eurozone members is essential if the Euro is going to survive this crisis, I think that it will survive but may lose a few economic laggards and/or require a devaluation. That said, the EU would hardly seem qualified to audit any organisation's budget given its own record in this area."
There is absolutely no reason for the UK to submit its budgets to central EU control and there is no way Cameron will agree to do so. Why would we want to be bound by rules of a club that we are not members of?"

Correct as far as it goes,but central oversight requires a revision of the treaty which Cameron will veto,partly to prevent old divisions opening up, but mainly because it would become a debate on membership which he can`t afford.

His problem,and ours,is that Germany will stop funding other members unless it has some control over their budgets.You see where I`m going?,Cameron`s intransigence could provoke a collapse of the Euro/sovereign default leading to a second bank collapse/a deflationary spiral beginning in the eurozone.

Opening our books is the least of his worries,he has far harder issues down the line and we must hope he has the wisdom to see them.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Setting aside political allegiances for a moment, the formation of the EU and the Euro was always questionable when it’s expansion was like a stampede to bring other smaller countries in to the club. It’s a great example of how politicians should never be allowed to manage anything. The boundaries set where never “lived up to” because no solid criteria, for monetary stability, was ever managed and the poorer smaller countries swept in saw great spending opportunities…why not? Now Greece (3% of the EU market I believe) has triggered a crisis which will weaken the Euro for some considerable time and the fallout may eventually bring it to it’s knees. The EU needs to become fully Federal, controlling the management of all EU country budgets anything else will be always subjected to some country taking an advantage!!.
Two obvious questions:
How long will the richer countries keep spending their money (or afford to?) in balancing extravagances of poorly managed countries ?
How could you ever get agreement for a such a totally Federal system ?
Europe cannot ever emulate the United States of America Federal and State systems as that was created by a very much different historical background. What is needed now in the EU is an agreed framework of strict fiscal management by each country and if they over spend they are OUT of the expensive club !! They didn’t even get the EFTA or the Common Market working smoothly before the jumped to an EU concept…..boo on politicians involved… what was the rush??
Thankfully the UK and not without it’s own unnecessary debt problems stayed out of the EU currency, which was by luck not by smart politicians!

sagamix 55

'Seems reasonable that if a number of separate countries share the same currency, there should be some rules around things like the size and duration of deficit/surplus each can run.'

It does indeed. And it also seems reasonable to ask yourself whether the said countries should be sharing a single currency in the first place. Especially when after 10 years of doing so the whole experiment is on the point of collapse.

Wouldn't now be a good time to let the people decide (new progressive politics and all that) and for each country to have a referendum on whether they wanted to remain in the single currency or not ?

. At 03:11am on 22 May 2010, DistantTraveller wrote:
# 21. Justin

"If a treaty needs to be ammended or created so as to protect Europe from economic collapse, David Cameron would be wrong to veto it."

On the contrary.

Nobody wants a European economic collapse, but the problems have been caused in part by a one-size-fits-all currency and the total ineptitude of the EU itself. The EU is hugely wasteful - and don't forget the auditors would not sign off the accounts for 15 years in a row. Simply giving the EU yet more powers to sort out the mess it created is not the answer.
The EU badly needs reform - not the type envisaged by the Lisbon constitutional treaty, but a return to a 'common market' trading block instead of the European Super State apparently favoured by France and Germany."

In the long run a single currency with disparate economies and national governments may have been be a mistake.But as Keynes remarked,in the long run we are all dead. In the meantime there is a whole tissue of multilateral institutions,trades,regions and subventions which would have to be unpicked.It would be seen by the markets as a sign that the EU could no longer support its weaker members who would be picked off one by one provoking another banking crisis.

However,the EU are between a rock and a hard place.Without more centralization Germany won`t continue to fund the defaulters,a revision of the treaty will be vetoed by Cameron.

If there is growth in the European economy this year,it`s possible we will avoid an internal EU crisis over sovereign debt,the trend towards centralization will be weaker.If growth flatlines and recession returns,a political and economic crisis in the eurozone will coincide, with disastrous consequences for its members.

Greece will not remain in the Euro.

The only two questions are therefore:
a) When and
b) Who's next?

Every economy that followed Brown's 'pump money at the banking problem' solution in now doing what Ireland has already done and we are about to do - cut back massively on Govt spending and increase taxes.

There NEVER was any doubt about a double-dip recession - the only questions are:
a) how deep and
b) how long?

A VERY rough guess would be -10% from where we are now and around 10 years (5 dropping fairly steadily, 5 of minimal (well under 2%)growth

Meanwhile, China et al are growing at 10%+ and so will soon dominate all global trade and political considerations - the EU will be a bunch of primary school children squabbling over a fluff-covered sweet from someone's pocket in a corner of the playing-field.

The final size of the State will be around 50% of the current level, with 25% added which we will soon pay for but now get for free - such as health and education.

The EU as a world superpower (as it was intended to be from the outset) was historically badly timed - 50 years ago, it might have made it, now it cannot - unless and until it recognises that we need to compete with China and India on wages and working conditions. That means theirs needs to rise (currency revaluations?) and ours need to fall (currency depreciations).
There also needs to be a bonfire of all the rules and regulations coming from the EU and their replacement with just one:
Is your product safe to use in normal conditions?
Are their any predictable circumstances in which your product will kill or seriously harm the user or those around?

If the answers are yes and no, you can makes and sell whatever.
Yes and yes means a clear warning must be included.

No and yes; no and no - you'd not make it anyway!!

Its a tough old rule, Natural Selection, but it always, without fail, works. Anyone or anything trying to defy it, just postpones the inevitable and hurts many and loses money.

Greece is, and always has been, a completely toxic country in monetary terms and several others are similar (PIGS) in that their sovereign debts are well above those published by their Governments. You can add the UK to that list atm, and the best part of the Budget will be the revealing of the TRUE state of our national debt and just how much Brown/Darling hid from the public. The real 'killers' in that list will be PPFI liabilities and Public-sector pension provisions.
There's not much to be done about the first; the second can be cured by raising the public-sector retirement age to a tapered 70 and increasing pension contributions from 6% to 10%.

You are quite right.
This ''atempt to ''charm'' is offensive and both countries and indivduals involved would prefer it being given straight to them.
Of course I'm a bit surprised there's not room for a review or commission.

Some things I suppose, you just have to ''make up as you go along''.

Still, these days, you'd expect a person to handle many social networking sites at a time these days.

[All together now...joy division
(not the Sugarcubes version,which it seems is in part a downer on the band(of that name). funnny that, because it decries the joy divsion in their own lyrics for being a downer(only stimulating the mind not emulating.but what does this mean when at the time joydivsion where about having a laugh and a good time,so much so that the singer's suicide was a great shock to the band members and fans.also curiously, before his death,I Curtis(not to be confused with I Spartacus) predicted the band would become hugely successful/famous)

''We'lll drift through it all, it's the modern age,
Take care of it all,now these debts are paid,
Can you stay, for these days?]
[wink]

#49. At 12:00pm on 22 May 2010, BovineBuffoon wrote:

"#38, John_from_Hendon wrote:
... that is the terrible mistake he made yesterday. We have been condemned to the outer ignored fringe of Europe by this one stupid mistake ...

Over-egging it a bit John."

Bad first impressions stick!

#53 - EUprisoner209456731

"Since we were promised a referendum on the political toxic waste called the Constitution which was subsequently relabelled the Lisbon Treaty but smelt just as bad . . ."

If you don't understand the differences, you have clearly read neither which disqualifies you from having an informed opinion. And "political toxic waste" is a phrase designed to cause maximum offence without postulating anything resembling an intelligent argument.

". . . since about 82% wanted that referendum and 70% wanted to vote NO you should not be surprised that there is ongoing resistance".

Reliable sources please, for a change.

". . . what arrogant, multi-faced, manipulative, selfish, anti-democratic "EU"-lovers have done to us".

More mindless, abusive and meaningless bile. Why do you insist on putting EU in parentheses as though it is a pet name or something? You don't do it, I notice, with UK.

"Your use of the phrase "Little Englanders" is about your problem with democracy."

And your use of "toxic waste" is about your problem with literacy.

Still democracy is a wonderful thing when people agree with you isn't it? And you can always hurl abuse at those who don't.

I wonder what side of the tory party nick robinson is on, does he agree with his fellow tories on the right or the left concerning europe, I would like to know where he stands?
oh and if you don`t post this I am not surprised.

68. At 3:13pm on 22 May 2010, happydadtoo wrote:
"Greece will not remain in the Euro.

The only two questions are therefore:
a) When and
b) Who's next?
Every economy that followed Brown's 'pump money at the banking problem' solution in now doing what Ireland has already done and we are about to do - cut back massively on Govt spending and increase taxes."

Your first proposition is possible,the second incorrect.The fringe economies like Greece and Ireland are cutting back.The majors are still spending.

The EU estimate for government debt across the region was 72.9% for 2009,79.4% in 2010.Now this may constitute cutting back in happydadtoo land, but doesn`t among cooler heads.

I know it`s hard to grasp but spending in a recession is the modern way.You stabilize output and employment,increase revenue and pay down your debt sooner.It wasn`t Brown by the way but Keynes, "General Theory of Interest,Employment and Money (1936) The route map out of the great depression.You may be aware that two Keynesian economists received the Nobel prize recently.

It`s not Brown but capitalism,it`s subject to boom and slump,the bitch convulses so you learn to control her fits.It`s important to remember that the collapse was in the private sector,not governments.Sovereign debt is a consequence of bailing out the banks.

It`s a matter of understanding a few simple relationships,and a bit of history.

33 Tony

For years I travelled around Europe being overjoyed at the freedom to travel with old border posts abandoned and nobody demanding to know who I was or what I had in my car.

Then on each occasion I returned "home" I was treated as a potential ilegal immigrant, criminal and smuggler. I despaired like you at the differences. Oh and things like wandering around in European towns and cities after dark with no atmosphere of menace to contend with like here.

Some things for our new Govt to work on I hope.

#73.
I'm not interested in the major economies PLANS for what they will spend, but rather what they are NOW doing as a result of 'recent events in Euro land' where the German banks have discovered they are liable for £500 billion of Greek debts - which Greece cannot EVER expect to repay, let alone repay in full.

Keynes is rot, always was once the global capital markets became bigger than any Government, or group of governments, ability to direct/change/alter.

The market-makers can make money by backing a Greek exit from the EU, and their combined power is unstoppable - so they'll leave.

The same people will then take a collective view on who's next (Portugal seem favourite) and they'll go too.

A 'hard Euro' with full fiscal as well as monetary union will be the most likely outcome - Germany, France and Benelux + (maybe) Ireland could form a combined 'superstate' in which their economies were almost perfectly aligned in the economic cycle.

As I wrote, the whole thing matters only in as much as our major export market is about to fall off a cliff, whilst the other, non-manufactured goods (ie financial services) is about to be crippled by further EU rules. Their combined tax benefit to the UK is colossal - the Hedge funds alone provide £6 billion in Corporation Tax - and then there's the income tax on their staff bonuses etc.

Britain has to cut its Govt spending by 30% over 2-3 years and by 50% over 6-10, to align with the smaller economy we're going to have to accept for the next decade - at least.

We accepted Socialism for 60 years in the fringes of the UK and, occasionally, in the English heartlands.

I pray that we will never, ever again be deceived by the fundamental hypocrisy of the 'tax and spend' philosophy. If someone needs help, YOU have a duty to help them - NOT the State. In reality, that means your family takes care of you, NOT the State, which, in turn, means women will have significant periods in their lives when they are not in paid employment - OR they pay someone else to undertake their 'duty of care' for their relatives.
For the rest, charities will expand, especially as the State withdraws its provision and only the desperately poor will be a burden on the working population for anything other than short periods.

Any one whose life is NOT nasty, brutal and short should be grateful - it's not a 'basic human right' to make a life-style choice of living on State money (benefits, state jobs) for years - even decades.

Personally i think that europe is crucial in the situation we are in at the moment. so it does not matter who is in power, europe is still cruical! But i am glad that our coalition will not join the euro currency.

#71 threnodio II wrote (not to me):

"If you don't understand the differences [between the Constitution and the Lisbon treaty], you have clearly read neither which disqualifies you from having an informed opinion."

Well, I've never celebrated ignorance, but in the case of the Lisbon Treaty I might claim some kind of derogation since it's fairly unreadable, probably deliberately so, and there must be thousands of political tracts more worthy of study.

The classic statement, by its author, Giscard d'Estaing, is his article in 'The Independent' 30 October 2007 (headed 'The EU Treaty is the same as the Constitution').

To paraphrase, the content is the same, but the constitutional vocabulary was removed to head off any threat of referenda.

Such are the 'by-paths and indirect crooked ways' that the European political elite have advanced an integrationist agenda.

42. At 10:50am on 22 May 2010, nautonier wrote

"We now have a Prime Minister and a coalition who can put the English majority of 50m first - if this makes me a so called Little Englander then I'm rather proud to be one.
Europe will have to come to the UK and ask for favours - and the UK can ask for favours in return - that is the point and we now have (for the first time in 13 years) a Prime Minister who will not ignore 50m people in England and put their interests first.
The 'Commie-Kaze's' have lost the UK economy, the European argument and thank goodness, the election - and Britain now has an emergent and strong negotiating position on Europe and a very capable and earnest Prime Minister and deputy Prime Minister who can re-shape Britain's relationship with Europe - in the national interest."

I am all in favour of the national interest, but it is not achieved by reviewing our EU policy in a partisan haze.

Cameron emerges onto the European stage with a list of negatives.He is allied to what his coalition partner described as nutters and homophobes.His Latvian partners celebrate the Waffen SS.Then on his first official visit to the German Heimat he parades his veto on economic centralization.

The SDP are already parading it as an additional argument not to support Greece.Why should they?,responsibility without power over how the money is spent.Over 50% of German`s agree, so what may be economically necessary becomes politically harder.

Not a bad achievement for a bit of grandstanding aimed at the audience back home.I see no sign of reciprocal favours but of naivete` in not thinking through the consequences.If Germany withdraws its patronage,Greece will default with unprecedented consequences for our banks.It`s as simple as that.

Alternatively,Cameron may not mean what he says,is adopting a negotiating position where he is reluctantly persauded to cede further powers, but uses crisis spin to avoid the referendum which would turn into an argument on British membership.

#67 Bryhers wrote:
"In the long run a single currency with disparate economies and national governments may have been be a mistake"

Not only in the long run, I suspect. Your criticism is too light. No need to hold back.

The economic case against the euro was made by many at its inception. In the absence of a single European economic government, with huge fiscal transfers between regions, a single interest rate for disparate economies never made sense.

The contradictions were there, are there today, and will be there tomorrow.

#75 happydadtoo

And what if your family don't want to help you? What if they are just selfish, or drug addicts and incapable?

Your premise suggests that the state has no responsibility.

But you forget that the 'state' is a representation of the peoples will - the peoples desire to help each other, support collective healthcare, education and social services.

You say that only people help people...but the state is about people - it only exists because of people.

You may want to turn over democracy to the markets - you may be happy to live in anarchy without any government to organise public services for the benefit of the people but the vast majority of people disagree with you.

In terms of you economic predictions - they are frankly bonkers.

You have predicted interest rates at high levels by the end of the year, the economy to contract by 10%+ and so on. You make Robert Peston look positive.

But its not that you have a negative world view - its that your predictions are wildly wrong - and we won't have long to see the results of them.

By the way - if the economy does contract 10% then I believe that the country will turn to socialism and kick the Tories out for 50 years - sadly I think this is unlikely as your premise is flawed.

Even if we have a double-dip recession caused by the Tories cutting too much and too early, it won't be as bad as you predict.

Personally, I think the Tories have to be very careful about their policy. The recent revising DOWN of Britains debt due to stronger tax revenues and a recovery in the banking sector shows that economic growth has a great deal of potential for closing the deficit and stunting that growth could lead to much larger cuts and a vicious descending spiral of negative growth and further cuts.

The economic recovery is dependent on the government walking a tightrope and we have to rely on the Lib Dems providing the balance - not very encouraging.

We now have a chance - Bomber Brown and his Iraq invasion criminals are out of power (and the sneaky ones are now dis-owning the War in Iraq and hoping to become Labour Party leader)...

and we have DC and NC ... Hooray! Now we can do something! I'm going back into the garden ... the sun is shining ... Brown has gone!

bryhers 73

'The majors are still spending'

Would those 'majors' be France 8% deficit, Italy 5% deficit and Germany 5% deficit compared with UK 12% deficit ?

'It wasn`t Brown by the way but Keynes'

Keynes said you put money aside during the good times. Brown never did this. On the contrary he went on the most reckless spending spree in this country's history.

'it`s subject to boom and slump'

Shame that Gordon 'end to boom and bust' Brown never realised this then isn't it bryhers?

'Sovereign debt is a consequence of bailing out the banks.'

In some countries maybe, not the UK. The vast majority of the debt increase in this country is the result of the excessive spending binge under taken by Gordon Brown fuelled by his delusional belief he'd ended boom and bust (see above).

'It`s a matter of understanding a few simple relationships,and a bit of history'

You need to brush up on the history of New Labour 1997-2010. Maybe then you'll understand why we're in such a mess.

#67 bryhers

"In the long run a single currency with disparate economies and national governments may have been be a mistake"

That's putting it mildly!

The only way a single currency could ever work is with a single government, pursuing a single economic policy. It was always obvious that a currency shared with different currencies with vastly different economies and policies simply could not work.

My belief is that this was always part of the plan. The Euro was intended to be a stepping stone to final integration - the United States of Europe, with most decisions taken by an unelected commission with their unelected 'president'.

Unfortunately for the authors of this plan, the Euro has started to disintegrate before the next necessary step could be put in place.

You say "Without more centralization Germany won't continue to fund the defaulters"

Yes, you are absolutely correct. 'More centralization' is the only way the Euro can be saved.


No thanks!!!

VOR 80

'The economic recovery is dependent on the government walking a tightrope and we have to rely on the Lib Dems providing the balance - not very encouraging'

Rely on the Lib Dems lead by Tory Nick ? Surely we want Liberal Dave leading the way.

82. At 6:23pm on 22 May 2010, jobsagoodin wrote:

Excellent stuff!

Keynes did not foresee an idiot like Gordon Brown in charge of pulling the levers of government regarding the economy!

Nowhere did Keynes write ... 'all of my ideas must be operated in an idiot free zone' and 'assuming competent and responsible government'.

Its_an_outrage #60. . .

Thanks for responding. I know that you didn't write the entire comment which I coppyed and pasted in my #22, and that the only comment that you wrote was the last sentence about Europe being taken seriously by theUS. I merely coppyed as much as I did because I feared that if I only coppyed your commentary, that you wouldn't remember what it is I was refering to and thus be forced to go back and look at your comment on the previous thread and I didn't want to unnecessarily hassle you with that.

You mention extradition treaties as one area where the US doesn't take Europe seriously. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that we (all nations, not just the US) have extradition treaties with other countries on an individual basis, including Europe. I didn't know that the European Union as a whole has one extradition treaty with the outside world. Will you please explain? In what other areas do we not take you seriously?


Regarding first foreign trips, when Obama and Bush visited Canada and Mexico, there was media commentary, yes. But that was only because politicians and pundants were concerned about what the trips could mean for the US-UK relationship as far as downplayed or hidden rifts on both sides, how the new presidents view Britain, and whether these trips were a bad oman of things to come. Yes, I agree that some of it was unnecessarily flippant, as your expression of hope that I don't take the British media seriously would suggest you agree. But I, in turn, would caussion you against writing the entire British media establishment off as panderors to the lowest common denominator and the all mighty pound. Yes, certainly, there are traditional tabloid newspapers, such as the Daily Mail, that don't warrent much serious contomplation at all. But - I should think - the majority of the British media does their job. And their job includes reporting on topics no matter how trivial and obsessed over they may seem to us mortals. I guess what I'm saying, is don't ignore or presume to be false the reporting of a topic just because you may not like or agree with it or the people reporting on it.


I will say one more thing on Europe and America's relationship with it. Although I must admit I am somewhat hesitant to do so, as it is not exactly my area of expertese nor, I believe, my rightful place to comment as I am neither British nor a citizen of any other European country. But I will say this. The European Union is a complex and ever-evolving entity. As it has developed, first from a common defence block of six nations, then to a trade block, to it's present status as a political and economic union that is in many ways more united than the US, so too has America's relationship with it. Just as In Britain, there have been passionate voices on this side of the Atlantic from both sides on whether to establish a relationship with it, and if so how much of one, and how to balance our relationship with it along with our relationships with individual European countries. There have been, and are voices in the media both scolding us for encouraging a supranational union thereby undercutting and undermining British interests and not going far enough in cultivating a relationship with the new reality of Europe, as you appear to side with through your comment on the need for urope to be taken seriously by the US. It is a very tricky business, balanceing individual relationships with a European one; giving Europe the attention it desires and deserves, but at the same time trying not to allow the talk of "America's counterweight" etc to get to us.


Though I personally don't like how much Europe has almost morphed into a federation and wish it had remained the common defence and economic block it had originally set out to be, I think there will eventually come a day when Europe will complete it's transformation into the United States of Europe, and so too will our relationship with that new country. Just be patient with us while we catch up.

#80

No, no, no, no, NO!

The double-dip recession was absolutely inevitable from the start - the only variables being the pause between them and the scale of the second drop.
The entire Western world has now realised that the bank's basic premise (nearly all loans will be repaid) is fundamentally wrong. I accept that it was all a 'house of cards' construct, but once one area collapsed, the effect on the rest was inevitable.
Two Western countries are emerging stronger - Canada and Australia. Both had no big 'boom' as their Govts were more sane over the last decade and both started to cut expenditure years ago, meaning their Govt expenditure is more in line with their country's economies.

We have the excessive expenditure since 2002 to overcome and cut - around £1.5 trillion - the 'banking crisis' accounts for £160 billion.

And Uk banks have little exposure to Greece, so the effects of Greece defaulting (an absolute certainty) will be relative small.

With annualised inflation at 12% and our only hope of recovery still further devaluation (and consequent additional inflation) the BoE has two options (assuming the 2% inflation target is not raised to 5%+):
a) raise interest rates to around 8% (note that UK loan interest rates bear little relationship to base rate) or
b) Pump yet more cash into the economy - and accept inflation will be nearer 10% than 5% a few years' out.

All that £200 billion has to increase inflation in the end - it's also going to see a collapse in the UK housing bubble too - we need to return to an average house being 3-4x average earnings, not 6-7x. Student loan debt will help a lot there, as the poor fools who went to uni expecting to earn good money for the rest of their lives have to repay the loan and compete in a world where 40% are graduates, not 5% - thus greatly devaluing the piece of paper that some of them had to attend more than one hour of lectures each week to obtain!

It's a new world out there - nothing to do with the election and everything to do with 'chicken coming home to roost' - and we have 65 years of Govt profligacy to repay.

That will take a while!

As for your other points re drug-addicted families - well a) there are very, very few of them and b) once it's clear that your family needs to care for you, NOT the great 'They', Society's attitude will change. How do you think the world population grew from 'the year dot' to around 1920, when Socialist ideas began to damage UK productivity?

Charm? I voted to have a PM who tells the EU as it is and brooks no interference from Brussels.

We don't need charm to deal with the EU monster we need a decisive and plain speaking PM who has Britain's good at heart not, as with Brown, the EU's.

the ultimate answer is 101010 in binary form.

This summer is going to be absolutely delicious- a new proper Conservative Prime Minister telling Europe that they must sort out their own foul (euro) mess, the failed euro project about to be fully exposed for what it always has been - i.e. well and truly flawed and failed- with most of Europe due to exit the miserable currency at some point this year in disgrace....and to cap it all, the sun is shining in England and Labour's civil war and dissent is also set to take place between now and the Autumn.

I recall a few years ago lots of people (mainly "Lefty" types) predicting that it was "inevitable" that this country would be joining the euro. The only inevitable thing now is that the euro - like those same Lefty, socialist no-good types - are soon to be consigned to the dustbin of history as failures.

A delicious summer indeed awaits England.

its all pointless anyway,the whole of life is completely pointless so we may as well give mr van rompy pompy (the eu main man) a big smile.

#83 me

Typo

I meant to write:

It was always obvious that a currency shared with different countries with vastly different economies and policies simply could not work.

2010, johnharris66 wrote:
#67 Bryhers wrote:
"In the long run a single currency with disparate economies and national governments may have been be a mistake"

"Not only in the long run, I suspect. Your criticism is too light. No need to hold back.
The economic case against the euro was made by many at its inception. In the absence of a single European economic government, with huge fiscal transfers between regions, a single interest rate for disparate economies never made sense.
The contradictions were there, are there today, and will be there tomorrow."

Absolutely,but we have to deal with the world as it is.The economic dynamic tends to further E/U economic and political integration,without it the Germans will refuse to fund weaker economies.The veto power of the British government is an obstacle,how it is played out will have huge effects on the international economy.

# 89 and 91 ronnieboy1

"the ultimate answer is 101010 in binary form."

and

"its all pointless anyway,the whole of life is completely pointless"

Don't be downhearted! But are you sure your name isn't Marvin?

87 Happydaddy too

Heres lies the big question.

Debt £1.5tn (Kevinb says £1.4tn but let not quibble over the odd tn or so) annual debt last year £153bn.

Lets start with the easy bit. AD says don't cut debt this year but halve over the next four years. GO wants to go further and faster but despite being in government still no news as to how much further he wants to go. So the question is how much should GO cut annual debt in the like time of this government (based on it's full 5 year term).


The slighty harder question. What should UK level be and over what period based on your £1.5tn.

#87 happydadtoo

"As for your other points re drug-addicted families - well a) there are very, very few of them and b) once it's clear that your family needs to care for you, NOT the great 'They', Society's attitude will change. How do you think the world population grew from 'the year dot' to around 1920, when Socialist ideas began to damage UK productivity?"

You must be the one those few people in the world who wants to turn back the clocks and live in the dark ages.

Society has moved on - its called progress - its happened all around the world - and its not going to stop just because of a recession.

Your idea that countries around the world are suddenly going to adopt Victorian values and abandon any kind of state intervention is ludicrous.

Which country, arguably, now has the largest economy in the world? Communist China.

Despite the fact that it has adopted some market economic policies it is not exactly a prime example of non-interventionist state control.

Your argument is that societies opinion about families looking after each will change because the government refuses to help, however this is, at best, naive and, at worst, callous.

And the world's population 'grew' before the 1920's due to human invention, due to us discovering farming, the printing press to pass on knowledge and so on. It grew because we invented new medicines to treat diseases.

It was nothing to do with what kind of 'state' countries had in place.

The largest and fastest advances in humanity's knowledge and population have happened in the last 65 years. The years you class as 'socialist'.

Kind of shoots a hole in your theory, don't you think?

#84 jobsagoodin

"Rely on the Lib Dems lead by Tory Nick ? Surely we want Liberal Dave leading the way."

I suppose the picture I was trying to paint was of Liberal Dave as the tightrope walker and the coalition parties sat along the pole.

The rope I was talking about was the economy but you could probably create a similar rope for any major issue.

You can imagine the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg balanced on one end of the pole and Liberal Dave's Right-Wing backbench MP's balanced on the other end.

If Liberal Dave leans too far in either direction, Lib Dems or Right-Wing Tories, or either group starts 'rocking about' then Liberal Dave goes plummeting...

jobs,

"Wouldn't now be a good time to let the people decide (new progressive politics and all that) and for each country to have a referendum on whether they wanted to remain in the single currency or not?"

Now would be a terrible time to do that.

75. At 5:20pm on 22 May 2010, happydadtoo wrote:
#73.
I'm not interested in the major economies PLANS for what they will spend, but rather what they are NOW doing as a result of 'recent events in Euro land' where the German banks have discovered they are liable for £500 billion of Greek debts - which Greece cannot EVER expect to repay, let alone repay in full.
Keynes is rot, always was once the global capital markets became bigger than any Government, or group of governments, ability to direct/change/alter."

I was not proposing a five year plan,just correcting a few of your details.

The globalization of capitalism means that government`s have to coordinate their response.Keynesian measures were successfully applied and catastrophe was avoided.Whether the scale of intervention was sufficient is unknown,the great depression was only resolved with the war economies of WW2.

As we see in the eurozone crisis,the trend towards more government intervention is strong.This has been a typical responsze to economic crisis since the thirties,it is irreversible.The free market is a distant dream.

There is still too much confusion amongst many between the Euro zone, and the Eu

The Euro is doomed to fail in it's current format, and the first two countries to break the entry conditions were Germany and France in 2006 and 2007

Like all clubs etc with rules, you either enforce the rules, or you don't

If you don't, then eventually this will destroy you

Interestingly all the marxist nutters are out in force, saying it is the end of the world...etc etc

It is no such thing

Plague killed most in the middle ages, and there was also a doomsday culture when we were approaching 1000 ad

Who remembers Y2K?

What tosh

Cameron came over well in France and Germany, and he will do well

Already there are signs that actions are being taken to clarify our poor foreign policy under Labour

Those on the left want to have everything controlled as they are basically robots

USE....Euro....State control over everything

It doesn't work, it will never work