Why's Gordon smiling?

Don't suppose you told him that Spain was not part of the G20?
Or that Zimbabwe was in economic recovery?
Or that Scotland is now Region 9 of the EU?
Any of these?

It really won't do, Mr Robinson. Are you Mr Campbell's apprentice ? BBC bias is outrageous ! Moderated out no doubt !

If that was a smile give me a grimace any time. Then you know where you stand.

Again he reeled off all the things he had done to stall a recession which he caused in the first place.

No more boom and bust just boom and no tomorrow just borrow and spend spend spend using all the taxes he raised on the back of it all.

The dream turned to nightmare and there are not many of us out here in the real world who have much to smile about.

He would be better placed cutting out the corny lines and telling us all the truth for once.

This is little more than propaganda by you Nick. What a shame!

"Gordon Brown - five more years."

The best election slogan the Tories could ask for.

So Brown is great.

The Tories are wrong?

Not sure I like this one Nick. As the first response says, does it not bother you that Gordon Brown does not seem to know about the G20? Why instead would you focus on some factually incorrect information the opposition challenged?

And again, plugging the Eton line to stir up the class hatred. What of the poshboys and poshgirls on Labours side of the house?

As Diabloandco implies, presumably Gordon is enjoying himself because he has such an amazingly favourable press. To the extent that on a day that he answers one of Cameron's questions with a flat out lie - that Spain is a member of the G20 - the BBC correspondent completely ignores it, and instead refers to "factual errors" made by the Conservatives last week ! Who wouldn't look cheerful with that kind of reporting ?

I note in passing that the sidebar says "Gordon Brown denies Conservative claims that the UK is the only major global economy still in recession" and the same phrase was used on the radio news. But that is not what the Conservatives claimed, they claimed that the UK was the only country in the G7 or the G20 still in recession. Which it is. And Brown did not deny that the UK was the only major global economy still in recession, he denied that the UK was the only G20 economy still in recession, claiming that Spain is a member of the G20. Which it isn't.

Breathtaking chutzpah ? Not if the Nick Robinson isn't going to pull you up on it.

"The Conservatives have hardly helped themselves by "obsessing" - to use David Cameron's phrase - about Europe; making factual errors at last week's PMQs and rushing out hastily written speeches on subjects like the health and safety culture."

Sorry, Nick.

I have no allegiance to any party.

But "making factual errors"? What about Brown saying at PMQs that Spain is a member of the G20? It is NOT. For goodness sake, when he turns up, doesn't he check who's there? Or can any nation get a gate-crasher sit around the tabgle?

The EU sits as the 20th participant within the G20. So by extension (using Brown's criteria), Latvia should be counted within that group...

Brown smiles, because it's what you do when you don't want to break down in public. Shame that. If the reality of what he's done broke through, he'd be a candidate for the "They're coming to take me away, away, They're coming to take me away" chorus.

Could it happen quicker?

Having missed todays PMQ's I nonetheless believe that it is up to the Conservatives to prove that they could better if in Government, rather than Labour having to prove that they have sofar done their levelled best, since they will fall or stand upon their current Record in Government.

For it has been one thing in the past for Cameron to forever blame Brown for any shortcomings while being a Back-Seat Driver and not having any responsibility of the everyday running of the Country.
So therefore, if anything Cameron is finding that his ideas of Government are now being subjected to the same objections that he intutn was once levelling at the Government.

You could say that this is a kind of Political game of what goe's around, comes around.

Old Tories, new Tories, it doesn't matter, Tories with spiky haircuts and bovver boots would be preferable to this disgraceful bunch of charlatans that populate the government benches. Anyone would be preferable to Brown, who appears to think that the electorate like Mr Robinson will believe any of the barely disguised untruths he comes out with. Britain, "best placed to come out of recession" looks like remaining there for a long time, and as for troop withdrawals, if British troops are withdrawn within the next five years, it will be because they are making no progress in defeating the Taliban.

While its nice to see a PM who has emotion rather than just anger after he's been baited into it. I agree with the rest of the posts here, dreadfull piece of reporting there Nick.

Can you Tory bloggers make your minds up?

Is this a UK recession that was caused solely by Gordon Brown, or is it a global recession that includes, the G7 / G8 / G20 and pretty much every major economy in the world.

Indeed how can Spain even be involved in a UK recession that was caused by Gordon Brown?

At least stay consistent guys n gals.

Is it a Brown recession or a global recession?

12 rocket_dog

"Indeed how can Spain even be involved in a UK recession that was caused by Gordon Brown?"

-------------------------

Easy. Spain are responsible for the Ole in public finances.

Might be worth reminding folk addressing 'Nick' that it seems he doesn't read after he writes.

The concept of 'broadcast only' does seem to pass smoothly from Government to some media.

You tell folk what they need to think. And you are untroubled how they feel.

Works for a while. Then it tends to lead to... divisions.

Welsh and Scottish devolution notwithstanding we live in a country that has ONE change of political power since 1979 and that was now nearly thirteen years ago. The Tories probably will win in 2010 but very, very little will change.

Nick,

Do yopu think anything that happened at PMQs today will help repair public confidence in our political system ? I don't.

David Cameron and Nick Clegg can only ask the questions, they are not responsible for how Gordon Brown responds to them. Do you think Gordon Brwon even attemped to answer any of their questions today ? Presumably he's pleased that he's got a pre-rehearsed new soundbite to use. Do you really think that the electorate want a return to Alistair Campbell style politics. He really is a "PR man stuck in the 1990's".

This was not so much pre-election exchanges but more like pre-Xmas panto. And poor panto at that. Gordon Brown demeans our political system in this manner, and looks proud of himself having done so.

"It really won't do, Mr Robinson. Are you Mr Campbell's apprentice ? BBC bias is outrageous ! Moderated out no doubt !"

Maybe go on Ian Dale (tory blogger) page, and read the exact same summary.

This tory voter "Anyone who says dave is an idiot, when he does something stupid is bias" cry is getting a tad tired

"Not sure I like this one Nick. As the first response says, does it not bother you that Gordon Brown does not seem to know about the G20? Why instead would you focus on some factually incorrect information the opposition challenged?"

Spain are in the G20, technically. The only argument is that Brown doesn't use the G20 website for his information, like you.

Even Gordon's few remaining admirers admit that our recession was worse than many because of Brown's failures to address the housing bubble ( in fact furiously trying to re-inflate it ) or curb the excesses in the City. That's why we're in a fine old mess. As for Spain which has other probs they didn't let their banks go down our route - Santander therfore able to take advantage when the crunch came.

"But "making factual errors"? What about Brown saying at PMQs that Spain is a member of the G20? It is NOT. For goodness sake, when he turns up, doesn't he check who's there? Or can any nation get a gate-crasher sit around the tabgle?"

If Brown had set up a press conference, to attack Cameron, by saying:

"Spain are being secretly sponsored by Bin LAden to spy on us"

That would have probably been more comparable.

Technicality vs. hastily written gaff

9. At 5:26pm on 02 Dec 2009, LondonHarris wrote:
Having missed todays PMQ's I nonetheless believe that it is up to the Conservatives to prove that they could better if in Government, rather than Labour having to prove that they have sofar done their levelled best, since they will fall or stand upon their current Record in Government.

For it has been one thing in the past for Cameron to forever blame Brown for any shortcomings while being a Back-Seat Driver and not having any responsibility of the everyday running of the Country.
So therefore, if anything Cameron is finding that his ideas of Government are now being subjected to the same objections that he intutn was once levelling at the Government.

-------------

Well, you are just dead wrong. It is for the government to govern, and their duy to explain to the people what they are doing and why. It is the duty of the opposition to challenge them on this.

Only at election time is their any implication that they should tell you how they will do better.

Basic misunderstanding of our political process, flawed though it may be.

I am really disgusted at the continuous attacks on certain members of the conservative party, simply because of the school they attended. I feel that whatever your walk of life, you should be judged on what you do (or don't do!), rather then your previous background.
It would be inappropriate to attack someone because they attended a comprehensive, so why is this acceptable? I don't remember having an option to attend a different school when I was a child...
By this criteria all those children that currently attend Eton at the moment are effectively precluded from a career in politics! What a sorry line of argument it is.

It's fairly predictable this blog. No matter what the story "Nick is biased" if he has any criticism of the tories.

More than likely Guido Fawkes/Ian Dale trolls, just trying to cause mischief.

Anyway, I suggest you really go on any tory blog today. And you'll see that most totally agree with the points.

Cameron has had an awful last 2 PMQs. He's been taken to the cleaners in both. Be it personal errors, or Brown just having a good day.

Either way, he can't afford to keep being this ineffective. As he's starting to even make Brown look good in a debate.

Make no mistake, he took a battering today. As he did last week.

12. At 5:29pm on 02 Dec 2009, Rocket_Dog wrote:
Can you Tory bloggers make your minds up?

Is this a UK recession that was caused solely by Gordon Brown, or is it a global recession that includes, the G7 / G8 / G20 and pretty much every major economy in the world.

Indeed how can Spain even be involved in a UK recession that was caused by Gordon Brown?

At least stay consistent guys n gals.

Is it a Brown recession or a global recession?

------------

Can the halfwits try to pay attention?

It is a global recession (most of them are you know) that we are in a singularly poor position to cope with. Hence why the global recession is suffering worse and for longer than everyone else (except Spain, new members of the G21).

At least try to keep up guy/gal.

It is a global recession exacerbated by Brown.

"And again, plugging the Eton line to stir up the class hatred. What of the poshboys and poshgirls on Labours side of the house?"

I think it's more an issue that the Labour posh boys and girls aren't being seen to be creating policy to help their old class mates.

I'm sure if Blair had a habit of giving business cronies, and Peers of the realm tax cuts, during s recession, he'd get the same treatment.

Tax cuts, to maybe 2% of the country, during a recession, when he's also warning the working classes about "austerity".

Please. The issue is not class. Or schools.

The issue is what he's doing with the priviledge he has

"he Tories probably will win in 2010 but very, very little will change."

Left wing/Right wing politics is probably unelectable in modern society. The only way parties get in these days is pandering to the centre.

Cameron goes a bit left. Blair went a bit right.

We all end up in the same place

I don't even watch the BBC news anymore because it is so biased.
It used to be I would never miss it.

Give me Chanel4 News anytime at least they don't give the Government an easy time.

Oh god, kicking out time at the bars in Dubai again (or was it Hong Kong).

Night all, enjoy the peculiar waffle and nonsense you are about to be subjected to.

"But "making factual errors"? What about Brown saying at PMQs that Spain is a member of the G20? It is NOT. For goodness sake, when he turns up, doesn't he check who's there? Or can any nation get a gate-crasher sit around the tabgle?"


That's the "I have just looked on the web site and this is what I saw" argument.

I can't see anything wrong in the statement that Spain are in the G20. They are. Whatever way you look at it.

Via the EU. Via the fact that they are an invited member. By the fact that they are the 10th biggest economy in the world.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Rocket_dog

"Indeed how can Spain even be involved in a UK recession that was caused by Gordon Brown?"

=====================================

From the UK perspective, Gordon Brown has certainly Costa Fortune .....

"Not sure I like this one Nick. As the first response says, does it not bother you that Gordon Brown does not seem to know about the G20? Why instead would you focus on some factually incorrect information the opposition challenged?"

GreatHayemaker

Pundits aren't contractually obliged to protect a certain party. What you seem to want.

You do spend most of your time on here, simply trying to "shoot down" anyone who dares to say anything about Cameron.

Go on Ian Dales blog. A tory blogger. He says exactly the same thing about the last 2 PMQs.

The fact being, Cameron's had a shocker in both. Even Quentin "Daily Mail" Letts says the same.

A technicality on whether Spain are in the G20 (they are) is hardly the same as a leader spouting out a series of completely false accusations about a Muslim school. Accusations he was forced to apologize about a week later.

I suggest you look up "blogging" some time. As in opinion on what's happening.

You seem to think it's "protectionism" of a party you appear to like.

Some of the things you complain about - you can go on tory blogs and read the same opinion.

Are the tory bloggers part of the grand "bias" conspiracy as well?

Spain is not the 10th economy in the world, neither is it in the G20 - check yourself

https://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx

Maybe Gordon is chipper cos he's on the right tablets now

"Can the halfwits try to pay attention?

It is a global recession (most of them are you know) that we are in a singularly poor position to cope with. Hence why the global recession is suffering worse and for longer than everyone else (except Spain, new members of the G21).

At least try to keep up guy/gal.

It is a global recession exacerbated by Brown."

------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'd suggest it's more the obvious fact that we are one of the only countries in the G20 with next to no home grown industry, and totally reliant on trade with other nations.

If they aren't trading, we don't have an economy.

I'm aware this doesn't fit the guido fawkes "it was all them" theory, but I'd suggest that the last tory government hardly prepared us well for this kind of thing

"Oh god, kicking out time at the bars in Dubai again (or was it Hong Kong).

Night all, enjoy the peculiar waffle and nonsense you are about to be subjected to.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Liberal consiracy" Hayemaker - the voice of political reason.

The more amusing thing being, you don't realize that your the most mocked person on here.

Well, of the tory bloggers I guess

29 Mike_Naylor

"I can't see anything wrong in the statement that Spain are in the G20. They are. Whatever way you look at it.

Via the EU. "
============================================

The G-20 is made up of the finance ministers and central bank governors of 19 countries:

* Argentina
* Australia
* Brazil
* Canada
* China
* France
* Germany
* India
* Indonesia
* Italy
* Japan
* Mexico
* Russia
* Saudi Arabia
* South Africa
* South Korea
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States of America

The European Union, who is represented by the rotating Council presidency and the European Central Bank, is the 20th member of the G-20.

If Spain are in the G20, does this mean the UK, France, Germany and Italy are each in the G20 twice ?

"By this criteria all those children that currently attend Eton at the moment are effectively precluded from a career in politics! What a sorry line of argument it is."

People only have an issue with Eton, when it's students start setting policy to help their old class mates.

I'm sure Blair would have got the same treatment if he was giving his cronies tax cuts as well

"Spain are in the G20, technically. "

Nope. If your going to go down the 'technically' route, then technically the only mistake Cameron made in PMQs last week was the scheme by which vile extremists were recieving schools money. Receiving taxpayers money they were nonetheless.

It is odd that Britain's former Chancellor not being aware that Spain isn't in the G20 is getting far less BBC coverage than Cameron's error in highlighting a genuine scandal.

Brown made two mistakes today. He made the blooper listed above and he also played to the Labour left with attacks mentioning the 'playing fields of Eton'. Not a good strategy as Crewe and Nantwich proved.

Labour are getting very excited about the polls: the last two have given the Tories 10% leads despite their absence from the news over the last few weeks. As for why the Tories are not 'out of sight': there are three factors.

1)The Tories were streaks ahead before the economic crisis. In turbulent times people become afraid of change: hence this time last year Labour got within 1% of the Tories in a poll (having been 20 odd points behind a few weeks before). Its the old 'exterior threat' factor.

2)The expenses scandal has depressed all the main parties' shares.
3)Labour have been in the headlines for weeks while the Tories have been very quiet.

Brown won't be smiling next May.

"David Cameron and Nick Clegg can only ask the questions, they are not responsible for how Gordon Brown responds to them. Do you think Gordon Brwon even attemped to answer any of their questions today ? Presumably he's pleased that he's got a pre-rehearsed new soundbite to use. Do you really think that the electorate want a return to Alistair Campbell style politics. He really is a "PR man stuck in the 1990's"."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

When all the opposition is, is buzzwords, then I'm guessing the probably just see it as the best way to hurt Cameron.

I'd say it's probably working

The thing about Nick's blog is to point out that there is till not that great pro Cameron as opposed to anti Brown drive in the country. Go back to 1992; the mood was anti Major and Kinnock messed up whatever pro Kinnock sentiment there was. He is commenting on the state of politics in this country.

The point about reporting Cameron's errors but not highlighting Brown's errors is that Cameron is supposed to be offering himself as a new improved PM. We know about the old model (in fact getting something right would be news) but would you buy a new car which has the same defects as the old one? Answer - not if you can help it.

I think our present government is tired and I would like to have a new exciting party (Tory, LibDEm or revamped Labour - labels don't interest me, it is policies that attract me)to support. What worries me is that too many people feel the same. If they don't vote at all it would be sad, but if they vote in desperation for ones of the parties which never have had a complete set of policies that could undermine our stability. Both Cameron and Brown would be to blame for that.

"I don't even watch the BBC news anymore because it is so biased.
It used to be I would never miss it."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

By biased you mean "they don't call Brown a lying nu-liebour, world recession creating, troop let downing, war criminal" every two minutes.

I'd try the Mail, Sun, or Sky News.

Right down the middle

"I can't see anything wrong in the statement that Spain are in the G20. They are. Whatever way you look at it."


No, they are not. In any case, if Brown's argument is that 'we're not quite last coming out of recession', its not a great one really is it?

"Spain is not the 10th economy in the world, neither is it in the G20 - check yourself

https://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx

Maybe Gordon is chipper cos he's on the right tablets now"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the fact that no politican has even mentioned the fact, demonstrates that they are maybe above the

"Go on G20 web site and see what flags are on their"

School of thought. If Brown had said that Spain were a G20 member state, then fair enough. You'd be bang on

21. At 5:52pm on 02 Dec 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:

Having missed todays PMQ's I nonetheless believe that it is up to the Conservatives to prove that they could better if in Government, rather than Labour having to prove that they have sofar done their levelled best, since they will fall or stand upon their current Record in Government.

For it has been one thing in the past for Cameron to forever blame Brown for any shortcomings while being a Back-Seat Driver and not having any responsibility of the everyday running of the Country.
So therefore, if anything Cameron is finding that his ideas of Government are now being subjected to the same objections that he intutn was once levelling at the Government.

-------------

Well, you are just dead wrong. It is for the government to govern, and their duy to explain to the people what they are doing and why. It is the duty of the opposition to challenge them on this.

Only at election time is their any implication that they should tell you how they will do better.

Basic misunderstanding of our political process, flawed though it may be.
-------------------------------------------------------
As you appear to have been away from seeing what is going on around you, then you have obviously missed the Point that all the Political Parties are today NOW on a Pre-Election footing and whether we all like it or not, we will be getting endless promises from all the Political Parties about now they will be able to manage the affairs better than "others" all the way from now until the calling of the next General Election, along with all the Panto in endless up-stagings of one-upmanship by all the Political Parties at Westminster.

Such is the nature of British Politics, which makes many whom watch these PMQ Westminster Childish "Carry-On's" in other Countries and afar with amazement, and laughter.

Therefore, by any implications that time is now with us.

Why has comment 30 been referred to the moderators. To close to the truth for Nick and the BBC?

40

The issue with most people on here is the fact that they are so protectionist of Cameron that they think everything is a BBC conspiracy.

I suggest you go on Ian Dales Tory blog today, and read the exact same sort of story.

The commenter is totally right. It's an oppositions job to convince people that they are a much better option than the incumbents. If it's 50/50 choice, that's never enough.

Tories are almost down to single figures in the polls, and Camerons been awful in the last 2 PMQs.

It's not enough to be "as good as Brown". You have to be the one doing the embarrasing. Look at Blair battering Major in 1996.

Camerons come off second best to Brown for the last few weeks. Which is shocking, considering he has nothing to defend but his own carefully designed electorate pleasing policy - most of which probably won't even happen.

I was shocked when I heard his muslim schools question. One of the stupidest questions I've ever heard. What could it possibly achieve even if it was completely accurate? When you take into account that he's apologizing for making misleading accusations in the same place a week later. Words can't describe the stupidity.

Now he's making Brown look like Noel Coward with his predictable attacks, and poor questioning.

I realise the response. I really suggest you maybe read Quentin Letts, or Ian Dale. Staunch tories saying exactly the same thing.

Cameron's been truly disasterous since the conferences.

A 9-10 point poll lead, over a party seeking a 4th term, during an unpolular war, during a global recession.

It will only get worse - in regards to polling.

May be lucky to even get away with a hung parliament come alection day

I expect a clarification soon from number 10 sayig that Gordon Brown meant "we were leading Spain out of recession".

"he G-20 is made up of the finance ministers and central bank governors of 19 countries:

* Argentina
* Australia
* Brazil
* Canada
* China
* France
* Germany
* India
* Indonesia
* Italy
* Japan
* Mexico
* Russia
* Saudi Arabia
* South Africa
* South Korea
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States of America

The European Union, who is represented by the rotating Council presidency and the European Central Bank, is the 20th member of the G-20.

If Spain are in the G20, does this mean the UK, France, Germany and Italy are each in the G20 twice ? "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are listing G20 member states. Brown did not say anything like that.

He was asked about countries "in the G20". That covers everyone on that list, everyone in the EU, and everyone invited to G20 meetings.

It's really grasping at tory straws to be talking so much about such a technicality.

Probably testament to how awful Cameron was

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#29, Mike_Naylor wrote:

" I can't see anything wrong in the statement that Spain are in the G20. They are. Whatever way you look at it.

Via the EU. Via the fact that they are an invited member. By the fact that they are the 10th biggest economy in the world."

Mike,

So, are you saying that Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and Cyprus are all part of the G20?

So, bring it on, Malta. Tell us what we should do to resolve the world's crises.

The G20 is a self-selecting group. But Spain is certainly not one of the members. If there is a club with 20 members and you are invited to come along, it means you are a by-stander - NOT a member.

I'm on record as saying I don't like Brown's influence over the last decade. But blatant untruths in the HoC does get a bit trying.

He is smiling because he knows he can lie, lie and lie and so called journalist like you Nick let him get away with it.
Nick you are paid by the license payer so we deserve better.

"I expect a clarification soon from number 10 sayig that Gordon Brown meant "we were leading Spain out of recession"."


Is that the answer to "Please tell me how I can deflect criticism away from my struggling leader?".

Not even the Tory bloggers are bothering with the "what is the G20" lark

"3)Labour have been in the headlines for weeks while the Tories have been very quiet."

The Cameron/Coulson own the media. Just like Blair and Campbell did for about a decade.

I'd say the only media outlets that aren't trying to help Cameron into power are probably the BBC, Mirror, Guardian, Inedependent, Channel 4. And even the latter 2 are wavering a bit.

That's why you get the "bias" claim from tory bloggers every time someone states the obvious about Cameron, when he had a bad day.

They are used to blanket Daily Mail/SKY news, "time for change" coverage

"Cameron's been truly disasterous since the conferences.

A 9-10 point poll lead, over a party seeking a 4th term, during an unpolular war, during a global recession."

Cameron's been out of the headlines since the Tory Conference (except on the Lisbon issue). Even with Labour's by-election win and Brown getting sympathy over the letter scandal, they are still 10 points behind. Labour won the last election with a 3% lead over the Tories. The polls narrowed this time last year as well. At this time of year people switch off a bit from politics. The polls from January will be the crucial ones.

Your polling data is very odd as well. Here are the last 7 Tory leads in the polls: 14,14,13,6,17,10,10.

This time last year it was as low as 1-3 points. I.E: Labour has fallen away since last year.

Cameron has been far from 'disasterous' at recent PMQs and very few people in the 'real' world ever catch any of them. Brown refusing to answer any questions, not knowing Spain is not in the G20 and playing the class card over Eton suggests he is not doing much better: read the PMQ reviews from some papers. Lots have highlighted that Brown's making a mistake if he thinks attacking Cameron's schooling is a good move.

#33

Spain is the largest world economy not to be a separate member of the G20 according to the simple to find info (not only Wiki where it is placed 10th)
According to the world bank in 2008 it was the 9th largest economy in the world.

The mistake which Brown made is understandable but a factual error (much the same as Cameron made and admitted - so they a will be even when Gordon makes his correction, though I am not holding my breath). However the same is variance is true of this error as with Camerons - the info was not quite right but the general jist is correct.

"It will only get worse - in regards to polling."

I'm not a Tory, although you clearly support Labour. The Conservatives will win a comfortable majority next year. There is no great trend to Labour in the polls (mired in the 20s, lower that Foot). The Tories have dipped through lack of media exposure and disinterest in politics at the end of the year. As I've said, this time last year Labour were much closer to the Tories in the polls. They fell away rapidly in the New Year-as will happen in 2010.

Gordon Brown will never be elected as PM by anyone. I'm sure he's an alright chap in private but he is hugely disliked even by friends who are life-long Labour voters as PM. That Cambell and Mandelson are back in the Labour picture is even more off-putting for many.

48 mike_naylor

"You are listing G20 member states. Brown did not say anything like that.

He was asked about countries "in the G20". "
===========================================
My comment which said "G-20 is made up of the finance ministers and central bank governors of 19 countries" is lifted straight from the G20 website. It says countries, not states. The G20 ought to know the basis of it's membership, but obviously you know better.

So you are saying that the UK, France, Germany and Italy are in the G20 as "states", and presumably as part of the EU, they are also in the G20 again as a countries! And you accuse me of talking technicalities !!!!!

Mike, Gordon Browns behaviour was a disgrace to our country today - demeaning our political system, the office of prime minister and lowering the public perception of politicians even further. And no amount of posts from people such as yourself can hide it.

I think he's smiling because he realises that Brown Junior, typing on his mother's computer, has shown he can make a lot more sense than his father; and because the PM has therefore now decided to hand over all policy decisions to his son...

46 mike_naylor

"A 9-10 point poll lead, over a party seeking a 4th term, during an unpolular war, during a global recession.

It will only get worse - in regards to polling."
================
Key word is "poll" singular, and somewhat out of family with others to say the least. Is this were you are pinning all your hopes. Seems a little desperate ....

As for it getting worse, wait until the Iraq enquiry gets going properly. Early signs suggest it it not going to be an electoral asset to New Labour - and Gordy himself will ahev to appear soon. We can only hope he'll actually attempt answer the questions out of respect, and not treat the conmmittee to the usual PMQ standard of nonsense.

52 mike_naylor

"Is that the answer to "Please tell me how I can deflect criticism away from my struggling leader?".
======================================

Errrrr...... yes. Deflecting criticism from our struggling leader is what the Number 10 press office are paid to do .......

#1 Diabloandco

Duff Gordon:

“Britain best prepared for the recession.”

“We are leading the world out of recession.”


After 10 years of recession the Zimbabwe economy is out of recession.

Zimbabwe economy to grow by 4.7% in 2009

The economy was originally set to grow by 3.7% but we are now expecting it to grow by 4.7% compared to a 10.9% decline in 2008.

Yet Britain is still in recession.

The debt issue is the big one and there is so much unused ammunition regarding it. Brown was in reality a reckless Chancellor - our borrowing was running at 3% of GDP even before the Credit Crunch ever hit us and the economy was still in growth. No wonder the UK was so badly placed when the recession started, no wonder our borrowing is easily the highest in percentage of GDP (13%) and we are still the only G20 country not to have pulled out of recession (Spain is not a member of the G20). Just wait until we lose our AAA credit rating as a consequence of Brown's reckless borrowing.

Brown is just trying to paper over the cracks in the run up to the election - this country is staring into the abyss over public debt!

mike naylor @ 17, 18, 20, 23, 25, 26, 29, 32, 34, 37, 39, 41, 43, 46, 48, 52, 53 (id go on but i darent refresh the page!) and there are only 58 posts as i write.

i would question your inaccuracies, but there are too many to question and there is not enough space on the BBC servers to do it!

I have never heard so much tosh come from one poster on these boards - believe me, this takes some doing!
You seem very afraid that the public in BBC land, do not understand mr brown, you appear to have taken it on your own broad shoulders to help the labour cause and in turn mr brown, by explaining how all the other posters on this topic, are mistaken or plain wrong.

perhaps you should stand as an MP?
you have delusions of grandure and knowledge on a par with our great leader himself.
then maybe you too could find an area of policy run by government, see that it is working, then attempt to "modernise" it, "bringing it back into the 21st century" - then you could extract maximum revenue from it as it crumbles into a complete shambles - then you too could re introduce the former policy, but with a different title or scheme name (costing twice, three times as much) then tell the people, via media spin and targeted leaks first of course, that you have been "busy with the business of government" and "getting on with the job"

i would happily second you as a labour party candidate, you have the ideal qualities that they are looking for, i am sure of that!

First of all for those who think Cameron hasn't got to do anything yet - cast your minds back to the 6 months before Maggie's and Tony's victories.

As for the Iraq enquiry - this could turn out to be Brown's finest hour if Tony's teflon is worn out.

As for the recession; maybe the figures (a lagging indicator) may still show that the economy is contracting, but I don't seem soup kitchens and mass homelessness. The big secret is that lots of people are getting through it without too much pain. They might blame Brown in some way, but to quote , "In the privacy of the ballot box ...."

Cameron needs to show why he will make a good leader (if he can)

53. At 6:42pm on 02 Dec 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote etc. etc.


Posting at 3 in the morning (Singapore time)... you must be one of Gordon's most dedicated supporters. When is the next honour's list?

"Gordon Brown has now got a political strategy for the war which will, I suspect, close it down as an election issue."
I don't think so. People will still remember that he has spent the past two years without a strategy and spent the past decade denying the Armed Forces the funding they needed to be properly prepared for war.
Oh, and being told that it's OK, cos the Spanish are in as big an economic mess as we are, has really made me feel better - not!

Roll on 61

Zimbabwe economy to grow by 4.7% in 2009

I was trying to follow your thinking but failed.When Mr.Mugabe`s economy slumped a further 10% or so last year, it was already a basket case with starvation in the streets.That the increase in general misery has been halved in 2009,mostly through aid, is no cause for congratulation.

The recovery in Germany.France, Japan and the USA is still well below the levels of output achieved in 2007,it is too early to call it a recovery and is very fragile as any economist will tell you.Their economies are just of the bottom,some like Germany with falls greater than the UK.The intractability of the British recession is because of the importance of finance in the economic mix,it is a structural feature which began in the switch from manufacturing to services which became pronounced in the Thatcher years.It has not been magically spirited out of the air by Mr.Brown.

The success of Mr.Brown, as history will show has been to avoid castrophe.Try to be more conservative in your thinking,the most you can hope for with political leadership is they avoid doing too much damage, because frankly,their power is limited.

Unbelievable piece this time. I can only presume that everyone has gone to the pub, or that they are all over on Robert Peston's blog reading about a subject that has highly serious consequences for HMG, namely RBS and bonuses.

1/10, must do better

I find it really odd that PMQs is conducted in such a vague way.

PMQs ws intended to allow parliamentarians to question the Prime Minister about current government activities.

So why is the PM allowed to get away with questioning what any opposition would/could have done, rather than answering questions?

Whether the opposition is Tory/LibDem or Labour, they are not in a position to DELIVER anything. So, at PMQs, the PM should be oblged to answer questions about what a government is actually doing, not turn the situation around to question what others with no power may or may not do?

I always find it difficult to explain to non-UK friends.

Can't even explain to fellow voters.

Brown smiles because...

He led the world out of recession (while the UK lags behind)?
He dictated policy in Afghanistan?
He properly managed the credit bubble inside the UK - forgetting the banks rediculous excesses that his regulatory framework couldn't handle?

No idea.

Just see my children's future going down a big brown pan.

The one thing you can guarantee is that when Brown is feeling smug and secure, he is riding for a fall. I don't see Brown surviving as Labour leader until the next election - something will crop up in the next few weeks to force him out. You read it here first.

64 Boilerbill wrote:

"As for the recession; maybe the figures (a lagging indicator) may still show that the economy is contracting, but I don't seem soup kitchens and mass homelessness. The big secret is that lots of people are getting through it without too much pain"

===========

The Labour Party is trying to solve the economic problem with a political solution.

QE will be applied to the patient until the General Election is held.
When the QE anathaestetic is withdrawn as it surely will at some time in the future, we will then be able to see if the patient keels over dies or leaps off the operating table as if nothing ever happened.

Everything is on hold at the moment so that GB can see if he can cling to power.

The best thing DC can do is hang on in there until the real truth emerges that this country is in the biggest pile of **** it has ever been in since records began.

If a new party can win the next GE, the first thing they should do is to get Deloitte in there (or some such equivalent) so that even as the shredders go red hot in #10, the people of this country will see the true extent of the disaster that has gone before and looms ahead.

It is like the Titanic Boiler (no pun intended); no one is feeling the slightest bit nervous on the ship; out there on the street, no one is feeling pain. The dancing goes on and the band still plays. That is weird, it is strange but it is what happens before catastrophe strikes.

You and everyone else who is sleep walking their way to disaster needs to ask themselves "Why is it so quiet when there is simply no good economic news out there and certainly not in the UK?"

OK, so let's say next week we are officially out of recession. So what? QE will still be in place. I'm more interested about what happens when QE stops which will be 24 hours after the next GE result whoever wins.

This thread like all others is nothing to do with what party wins the next election and what they need to do in order to achieve power; it will be about what is perceived to have happened this last 13 years and what is perceived to be going on now.

That is why Campbell and Mandelson are in the bunker right now. It is nothing to do with reality; it is all about perception, deception and spin. That is is their quality.

And if you and everyone wakes up to this fact that we are not witnessing the truth right now but an effective damage limitation exercise perpetrated by the most irresponsible government in existence, you would demand questions that are constantly being rebuffed.

As for GB's smile; it a bluff and you have been warned.

This country's finances are stuffed.

GB would say 'I am taking down the UK' as he said to DC today.

I would have no argument with him there; he is right.

And I am right too.

You have all been warned.

#71

That was an unintended Freudian slip.

I meant to write "GB would say I am talking down the UK' as he said to DC today",

not 'taking down the UK'.

Apologies!!!

PM 'Jock' Brown is finding an odd smile because as time passes the Dave 'whats my policy today' Cameron act comes under ever closer scrutiny.
Cameron is just so incredibly lucky that he is not faced across the dispatch box by Wilson-Callaghan-Kinnock-Blair, in fact, I would go so far as to venture a guess that Michael Foot's venerable mind would sorely test the qualities of this very dim Tory.
From Baldwin, Churchill and Thatcher to Cameron! I suppose the modern era has something to say for itself, but honestly, Cameron in the same breath as those!!!!?

I am far from a Brown fan - - frankly, any Scot leading the predominantly English Parliament in this 'Devolutionary' era is anathema to my England for the English sentiment - - the man has no Citizen Mandate 'south' of the border and as such in my eyes is dead in the all-pervasive political water.

How can it possibly be argued as constitutionally legitimate that a Scot leads the major political body of the United Kingdom in 2009-10!?
Extraordinary that these self-aggrandising, self-important, over-indulged Members of the Palace of Westminster would consider an anachronism as obvious as the Honourable Gordon Brown would not be spotted for what he is: A blot on the political landscape, an affront to the political aspirations of the one and only Union Nation without any independent Parliamentary representation - - England and the English.

Nevertheless, Brown is the No.10 incumbent, and it is for Cameron to shift public opinion as to whether he is to remain: On today and recent displays the result is far from certain because Cameron has yet to learn making the right Political noises is not the same as making the right Public impression.

Dislike the reference to "Eton" as this really is a cheap shot. Wouldn't imagine Gord would like to be referred to as "the miserable dour Scot less popular and more un-electable than Michael Foot".

Was alarmed at the point of order at the very end of PMQs that seemed to indicate some potential changes to the voting protocols for the next election. Maybe he has asked the Afghan president to count the votes.

@ 67 Anthony Piepe
I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned Mrs T. British industry effectively signed its own death warrant with inept management and militant unions - British Steel, British Leyland, British Coal etc. Thatcher actually succeeded in limiting the damage by encouraging inward investment; without her there would be no Nissan in Sunderland or Honda in Swindon to benefit from the scrappage scheme.
Brown has done nothing to redress the balance, quite the reverse. He spent 15 years sucking up to the city and the banks (remember the prawn cocktail offensive?) and I'm sure you recall his Mansion House speech in 2007 when he congratulated the city on their "innovation" in financial products. It was Brown who gave Fred Goodwin and all his banking chums their knighthoods and thought the tax they paid (£7.2B in RBS's best year) would always be there to fund ever-increasing public spending.
I do agree with your final sentiment - "the most you can hope for with political leadership is they avoid doing too much damage, because frankly,their power is limited". I've always thought a General Election was about choosing the least worst option. The euphoria over Blair in 1997 was an anomaly and now most people feel they were fooled by New Labour. The Tory front bench may not be very inspiring but it is hard to imagine they can do more damage than Labour has achieved, not just to the economy but education, government IT projects, the surveillance state, social work in crisis, Iraq, drift and underfunding in Afghanistan, multi-culturalism, the list is endless. And he deserves no credit for saving the banks - after all, if you are in a boat that springs a leak it doesn't take a genius to know it's time to start bailing.

63. At 7:54pm on 02 Dec 2009, denzil69 wrote:

mike naylor @ 17, 18, 20, 23, 25, 26, 29, 32, 34, 37, 39, 41, 43, 46, 48, 52, 53 (id go on but i darent refresh the page!) and there are only 58 posts as i write.

------------------------------------------------------

Denzil69 i fully agree with your post. It is highly likely that mike naylor is more than one person working for the labour party. Not the first time they flood post here. It is so obvious.

12 rocket_dog

"Indeed how can Spain even be involved in a UK recession that was caused by Gordon Brown?"

======================

Summing up, Spain has left a Ole in our public finances which will Costa Fortune to fill, and hopes of a recovery anytime soon are paella in the sky.

77. StrictlyPickled excellent

I just can not bring myself to trust this guy... he is anything but honest - Spain is NOT a member of the G20 as he stated and he should have the heart to come to the house and apologize like Cameron did.

The guys a freak, the smiles a freak and bares all, he simply just trying to be different and he will lie to make a political point rather than not make a political point and tell the truth.

The front bench is a disgrace talking and whispering behind the PM in view of the cameras... these folks should know different but they don't, in fact they don't know anything...

...we have ministers jumping from department to department like playing musical chairs - you telling me they are all that clever! That's the very reason they need advisers is because they don't know what the hell to do and it's costing us dearly... and that's the reason we are in one hell of a mess no matter how he smiles!

#77
Quite...this whole section should have a massive health warning! Anyone who thinks the comments here in any way reflect the views of the Great British public and not a small band of obsessives and paid workers of tory and labour parties, is being severly misled!

63. denzil69:

Spot on!
The man (men? men & women?) is (are) a self-opinionated bore, doing his (their) best to stifle debate. They must be getting really scared.

the comments on these blogs seems to be conservative bloggers headquarters !
are there any neutral comments!!??

Nick you seem very unsettled by the return of Alastair Campbell! I hope he will indeed stop the media biasses against Brown

Im not so sure that we confidently say Afghanistan is neutralised as a electoral/political issue.Especially as fatalities continue.
Even if it is neutralised the net benefit will be cancelled out by the airing in public of shameful antics over Iraq.

Both parties will be savage in their spending cuts and I feel -events dear boy events ,will mean that information /details about Labours planned cuts will emerge/leak out and dent their halo on this issue way before election time.

Right,so El Gordo The Magnificent is smiling.

That obviously must mean that:

1.The ever-ticking debt time-bomb no longer exists.
2.The genocidal wars "we" are waging can now be forgotten about.
3.The real economy is not descending still further into communistic squalor.
4.The nascent state-terror apparatus has now been replaced by fluffy-bunny enthusiasts.
5.Millions more destitute economic migrants are now even more welcome to add to our societal problems.


"Uncle Joe" Stalin liked to smile for the cameras as well.It did`nt change the fact that he was destroying Russian lives with his policies.

COOL BRUSH WORK

If its any consolation I strongly believe,partly because of the sentiment you expressed which is shared to some degree by many,that Brown will be the last ever scottish Prime Minister.We are moving into a new era.

I also found the patronising response Brown gave to Nick Clegg saying "im sure President Obama is pleased to have your approval lark..." to b illustrate the Prime Ministers deeply arrogant and egotistical true nature.Milliband and Khan laughing like haughty elitists was unappealing and unedifying too.
Never mind Milliband will never be PM so that smirk wont be permanent.

Why shouldnt Nick Clegg raise the issue?

I was disappointed that the Daily Politics did not touch on the change in atmosphere that was so clearly evident in today's PMQ. I think that Nick is bang on the money.



Concerning the recession:

Is the length of time in recession really the most important factor? Surely the total amount of contraction as a percentage of GDP is a fairer comparison to make, since nobody but China is reporting any meaningful growth. But regardless, since such a large proportion of our GDP is based on financial services, didn't we expect to be hit a little harder by this financial crisis?

"But, Gordon Brown said that we were best placed......."



Well of course he did, you don't face a perfect storm proclaiming that your ship could possibly sink, even if there's a good chance it will!!! What would we have had him do, hand out the lifejackets and tell us to swim for the mainland.

Don't we all need to grow up a little bit and stop being so pedantic.



As an outsider to the political scene and a Physicist, I would love it if the BBC could give more in depth statistics in excel format(preferably as a .dat file that I can read into MATLab or some other mathematical package), I know It's all out there somewhere, but it would be nice to actually look over the real figures myself. Some deeper analysis of the figures would also be very interesting in graphical format. I'm sure that your analysts must produce reams of this stuff when confirming government statistics and it would be nice to see some of the raw analysis.



I hate to say it, but sometimes the BBC's graphical analysis looks like a three year old has been let loose with the crayons. Meaningless graphs that have no sense of scale, often missing historical trends and quite often it seems more effort has been placed on the eye-catching graphics than a comprehensive understanding of the statistics.

patet omnibus veritas - only our beloved BBC can hold the government to account.

I was disappointed that the Daily Politics did not touch on the change in atmosphere that was so clearly evident in today's PMQ. I think that Nick is bang on the money.



Concerning the recession:

Is the length of time in recession really the most important factor? Surely the total amount of contraction as a percentage of GDP is a fairer comparison to make, since nobody but China is reporting any meaningful growth. But regardless, since such a large proportion of our GDP is based on financial services, didn't we expect to be hit a little harder by this financial crisis?

"But, Gordon Brown said that we were best placed......."



Well of course he did, you don't face a perfect storm proclaiming that your ship could possibly sink, even if there's a good chance it will!!! What would we have had him do, hand out the lifejackets and tell us to swim for the mainland.

Don't we all need to grow up a little bit and stop being so pedantic.



As an outsider to the political scene and a Physicist, I would love it if the BBC could give more in depth statistics in excel format(preferably as a .dat file that I can read into MATLab or some other mathematical package), I know It's all out there somewhere, but it would be nice to actually look over the real figures myself. Some deeper analysis of the figures would also be very interesting in graphical format. I'm sure that your analysts must produce reams of this stuff when confirming government statistics and it would be nice to see some of the raw analysis.



I hate to say it, but sometimes the BBC's graphical analysis looks like a three year old has been let loose with the crayons. Meaningless graphs that have no sense of scale, often missing historical trends and quite often it seems more effort has been placed on the eye-catching graphics than a comprehensive understanding of the statistics.

patet omnibus veritas - only our beloved BBC can hold the government to account.

Did anyone notice Theresa May appearing to mouth the word 'Bullshit' to a member of the front bench opposite, some 9 minutes and 17 seconds into PMQs? Can anyone clarify???

It's time the Tories played the ace card - England.

The very mention of the word will wipe that smile off his face. It's time the Conservatives reminded the the "Prime Minister" that he represents a Scottish constituency when he is talking about English issues which as approximately 80% of legislation is devolved is a lot of the time.

Better still they should push him on the establishment of an English Parliament with powers equal to those in Scotland. No doubt he will say something along the lines of not wanting to create two tiers of MPs. The answer to that is that devolution has already created two tiers of MPs and worse than that it's created 2 tiers of people - those with national representation and those without i.e. the English.

When he disingenuously talks about Britain or "our country" or "the country" when talking about health or education or any other devolved matter there should be a chorus of "say England" from those MPs representing an English constituency.

He should also be taken to task on the Barnett Formula while they're at it. Sadly I suppose it's too much to hope that English MPs will stand for England.

ENGLANDRISE

Odds are Brown will be the last scottish prime minister in Downing street.

Scotlands future is going to be one heck of a big issue in the future of British politics and none of the 3 party leaders dare face it.SNP should table more snappy questions at PMQs to push this debate.

Alan Applegate 86

It is a relief to read some economic rationality for a change instead of saloon bar punditry,anti-Brown rocket scientists,political flat earthers and sundry neanderthals. Well done.

Ah yes Mr Brown - the crux of your argument is that Britain is one of only TWO G20 countries still in recession. Wow, does that not make it sound SO much better !

If 5 more years of Brown is the answer, what the hell was the question ?

Alan Douglas

I think generally Brown had a good day,obviously helped by a very very flat performance by Cameron.I felt that DC had lost confidence,probably after messing up last week with the school question. Also the bigger question for me is that DC was not astute enough(nor his front bench) that Brown had said Spain were in the G20.It beggars belief that both parties do not know who are in G20!!I mean talk about missing the big opportunity.If I was DC I would spend the next week studying facts about the last 12 years performance look at where the front bench were educated and get on the attack. To play this sit and wait game because you believe that Brown will shoot himself is OK if you spot the opportunities, unfortunately Cameron misses them week after week.There is no way he is another Blair.He would have had Brown in wreck on the commons floor by now.Another tip for DC rather than jumpimg up and religously following the line of questions given to him.LISTEN to the answers and understand them,take your time.

This is quite a boring blog, so I'm going off topic. Megrahi is still alive. He was released on 20th August, because doctors said he had less than 3 months to live. Will he make it to Christmas? Was he released to soon? Is he really that ill? Was his health a poor excuse for his release? Or are Libyan doctors better than British ones?

Perhaps you should be asking why this idiot is smiling having reversed within eighteen months the debt repayment of the last sixty years.

Is it something to smile about to be leaving office with the biggest level of national debt and the worst deficit since the second world war?

Is it really something to smile about leaving office with an unchanged perfomance from education despite having added 30bn pounds per annum to the bill.

Serious issues of government finance and performance are at issue and the BBC decide to run a post about a grinning Gordon Brown

YOu both deserve to be closed down.

Call an election.

"Alastair Campbell - who's now back at No 10 as a regular visitor.."


And now has NR's nuts in a vice-like grip.

Why's Gordon smiling?

Its called acceptance, its what happens towards the end of a period of extreeme depression, when you accept the inevitable and realise that pretty much nothing can touch you now.

On a personal level Gordons probably feeling pretty bullet proof, he knows whats in his future, he knows he can't change it,but he also knows it can't really get any worse ,so he's going sit back and enjoy whats left of the ride.

Nick,

You wrote.

"Next week he has the tougher task of neutralising the issue of debt in the pre-Budget report. His aim will be to produce a deficit reduction plan"

So which one is it, deficit reduction or dealing with the debt?

Brown recently committed himself to reduce the deficit by half in four years time - but that just means reducing the amount the government borrows each year. Even if he succeeds in that aim, the debt will still be growing at around £90 billion per year. All the evidence says that Brown has absolutely no intention of ever repaying any debt at all. When New Labour apologists use "debt" and "deficit" interchangeably they are doing so as a deliberate deception - trying to create the impression that deficit reduction (which they can do, up to a point) is the same as debt reduction (which they can't). You should be more precise.

Nonplussed. That's what I was after watching PMQs yesterday.

A braying bullying bunch of morons, is what they looked like to me in the big wide world outside of the Westminster village.

Ffflash just looked like a bully who has no respect for anyone. Cameron looked weak. The Speaker failed miserably to control backbenchers and frontbenchers alike. He failed to ensure that questions were answered.
Balls just muttered and chortled with his immediate neighbours whilst gesturing across the floor, with reddened face.

What a farce! And this is democracy?

99 - Naomi,

I am in full agreement with you, The whole PMQ's yesterday was an embarrisment.

- The Speaker, is shown to be a smirking goon, needs to sort his act and and if he is to give an MP a b*******g, it should be understood as just that, rather than giggle about it afterwards in "Gosh! Only joking" manner, I hope Labour are pleased with themselves elevating this nobody to such an important post, especially in light of the failings of the last Bounderby.

- Brown, has always had a contempt to PMQ's and should be told (again by the speaker) it is not a sounding board for opposition policy, but for him as PM to explain his governments policies and actions.

- Cameron, obviously has had his fingers burnt from last week (should have checked your facts Dave). However, you don't have to wait too long before Brown drops the ball again, and I dare say he'll be upbeat again.

- Balls............world fail, a Sontaran with a wig.

- Why is Brown Happy?

For once he has some alignment with the Messaiah that is Obama, and he is currently radiating in his holy light. That said, Obama is in a world of pain back home, and the light is failing a little bit.

This isn't demorcracy this is pure theatre.