The top religion and ethics stories of 2011

This is a tenuous link to the thread perhaps, but given the observation that 'human social communities have throughout history included non-human species, that different animals play different roles and have different moral statuses' dependent on the level of familiarity & companionship they offer; Mary Midgley, the English moral philosopher said-

Pets, for example, are...surrogate family members and merit treatment not owed either to less intimately related animals, for example to barnyard animals, or, for that matter, to less intimately related human beings....

Tenuous or completely irrelevant? I quite enjoyed Dawkins' rejoinder to the batty Mary Midgley for her misapprehension of The Selfish Gene. It's been going on for 30 years now.

"Some colleagues have advised me that such transparent spite is best ignored, but others warn that the venomous tone of her article may conceal the errors in its content. Indeed, we are in danger of assuming that nobody would dare to be so rude without taking the elementary precaution of being right in what she said. We may even bend over backwards to concede some of her points, simply in order to appear fair-minded when we deplore the way she made them. I deplore bad manners as strongly as anyone, but more importantly I shall show that Midgley has no good point to make. She seems not to understand biology or the way biologists use language. No doubt my ignorance would be just as obvious if I rushed headlong into her field of expertise, but I would then adopt a more diffident tone. As it is we are both in my corner, and it is hard for me not to regard the gloves as off. I will try to make my reply constructive, in the hope that it may interest those who have not read Midgley's article, as well as those who have. Unattributed quotations with page numbers will all be taken from her article. Since it was my book, The Selfish Gene (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1976), which stimulated her attack, it will also be necessary for me to quote from it. I shall divide my reply into eight sections."

Find it here: https://richarddawkins.net/articles/2341-in-defence-of-selfish-genes?page=1

If dignity and unity and strong society can be considered ethical issues I would put forward the way the Japanese dealt with the natural disaster that befell them. I shudder to think what would happen if order was so undermined in UK cities.

While I'm at it, I think the riots should be up on this list. I was in Spain shortly after they happened and some (mostly young) people there seemed to think that the riots in English cities had some ideology behind them, and that they were in some way connected to the Arab Spring and/or the Occupy movement. They were neither and nothing of the sort. I lived in London for almost ten years and know exactly the type of person who was involved in that rampage; I try to look at the underbelly of any society I live in rather than just the flotsam and jetsam who come and go. These were people with a sense of entitlement bred into them. They were people who thought they deserved "respect", and would demand what they think is respect from you, and they don't know what respect is either. What they mean is fear. I surprise myself at how conservative this makes me sound when I consider myself nothing of the sort and I'm all for social justice. This sense of entitlement has, I think, its roots in a culture of unbridled capitalism, the culture of the never-never, but to call it ideological when all they wanted were Blackberrys and X-Boxes and speakers? Please. I had some pretty heated conversations in my Barcelona hostel about that - and with young people who were by far more enlightened and engaged with our current predicament than any of the morons who ran amok in the UK. It's one of the things about which I found myself most torn in the past year. I felt I stood firmly with the victims, but I couldn't quite muster the resentment I "should" have felt towards the perpetrators either. I couldn't help but see them as products of a faulty system. Educated people will agree that people don't often recognise how much a product of their time and culture they are. Does this absolve the looters? I still don't know. But surely this qualifies as an ethics story.

pastorphilip's legendary designation of April Fools' Day as atheists' 'special day'.

The killing of Colonel Gaddafi is being referred to as a war crime in some quarters. It's only speculation obviously, but would it have happened if Osama bin Laden had been arrested and made to face justice? What is clear is that, because of the decision to 'take out' bin Laden, western powers who toe the US line in foreign affairs are left with diminished moral authority.

I'm struggling with this too. I wonder about how long Bin Laden survived. I wonder about the - surely - important conjunction between the doing away with him and the withdrawal of the US from Iraq and Afghanistan. I can't help but suspect he was allowed to live for as long as they needed a reason to remain in those countries. I can't help but suspect that Osama Bin Laden wasn't nearly as significant a figure as we were led to believe. What was to be gained by putting him on trial? In matters of justice I'm all for a fair trial and imprisonment. But this man undeniably had declared a new kind of war. He was undeniably responsible not only for the deaths of the attacks he mounted and funded, but also for the nebulous Al Qaida movement he helped bring about, merely, it seems, by being allowed to spout that such an organisation exists, that it is cellular, and basically inciting people who had no contact with each other to mount attacks and use that name to indicate why they did it. Since these are the tactics he employed, I wonder if we weren't just right to deny him a grand stand. I look on his death as a deliverance.

I look on the natural passing of Kim Jung Il as a deliverance.

I think Gaddafi should definitely have faced trial.

I think the disgusting Assad should face trial too, but if the people he and his father have slaughtered and oppressed get their hands on him before the weak forces of international law, I won't weep over his demise either.

Allow me a brief snort at a defender of the catholic church, Theophane, venting about "diminished moral authority".

These are dangerous times I am alarmed by. Perhaps it's right that the liberal gets tough in defence of liberalism. I for one am becoming much less tolerant of the intolerant. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that the spirit of tolerance could be eaten from the inside out by the people who would destroy it. If ever there was a time to be vigilant and vocal it is now. Some of the people I'm most wary of are the "religious liberty" whiners.

Atheism is for muppets.

Please God, may 2012 be the year when Dawkins, Fry, Gervaise, Jimmy Carr and all the other atheist numpties get a reality check.

@Theo #6

Sheesh.

Now it's a party...

...to which Natman, Heliopolitan and others are invited, by the way. Doesn't everyone just love Christmas?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

In the link about the prime minister's speech (above, under King James Bible at 400), in which he pointed out that 'the UK is a Christian country', Tablet Editor Catherine Pepinster appears to think Mr Cameron should distance himself from what she calls his "1950s view of the family and Conservative support for traditional marriage." Why? And please don't anyone say "because that was a long time ago". Current estimates put the universe at 6 billion years old; 60 years is the blink of an eye.

@ 10.

"Doesn't everyone just love Christmas?"

Briefly, no. Further, I hate it. War on religion? Christmas wages war on my consciousness. I can't get away from it unless I go for a walk on the mountain or withdraw to a darkened room.

The most interesting thing about this Christmas so far has been my discovery that the flying reindeer thing is probably connected to the liking deer and the people who lived near them had a liking for fly agaric, the hallucinogenic mushroom. Yes, I find Christmas is that boring.

The news tells me domestic violence is through the roof in the last couple of weeks.

Doesn't everyone just love Christmas?

Yeh, lets get into the Christmas (and with your) spirit.

Good king Theo last looked out, on the feast of Wenceslas,
Someone chucked a snawba', and knocked the eejit senseless.

Brightly shone his bathroom light, on a floor of charcoal,
On the wall The Tablet, to wipe.... the smile off his face.

It should be called Crassmas.

A man I always feel some kinship with at this time of year; William Burroughs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4nSxArk9g8

Heres a helpful list from jesusblog of the natural disasters and other "signs" of 2011 that jesusblog interprets as

Although these disasters get worrisome, we have to remember that these signs mean one thing: Jesus is coming soon! I'm ready for the new earth, are you?

And since Crassmas is "all about the cheel-dren", some words of advice to them from the same soul brother: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqBIgCb7dv0&feature=related

I hope he and Hitchens are having a glass of Johnny Walker together down there.

And what a reassurance this is from an old man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOb4j5v-s48&feature=related

God spare me Crassmas.

I'm not sure if this would rank as a "top" story, but in the recently published ninth chapter of the Cloyne Report details are given of a child-molesting priest who used hypnosis. Many other aspects of the story, for example, the failure on the part of senior clerics to take proper action, will be familiar to most readers of this blog, but the use of hypnosis by priests is not something I have read much about.

https://irishecho.com/?p=68778

18 paul james

The 4th of January was an especially bad day for fish - tons and tons of them. When I speak to some of my "saved" fish friends about it they tell me that god had no option but to punish them for their wickedness of stubbornly refusing to evolve and make it on to dry land. Time for my haddock.

19 AboutFarce

That is an excellent 2 minute blast from Burroughs. If only Thought for the Day on Radio 4 were like this! He is spot on about avoiding F-us and not preferring sympathy on the mentally ill and avoiding confirmed criminals. Very refreshing.

newlach,

A story that might rank higher than the individual hypnotizing priest, is the release of an investigation into abuse by priests in my country of birth, the Netherlands, post World War II. The number of abuse cases could not be determined very precisely but it's somewhere in the low tens of thousands.

https://edition.cnn.com/2011/12/16/world/europe/netherlands-church-sex-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Hi Peter,

Yeah that depressed me yesterday. "At least 20,000" I read.

I meant to get back to you sooner. Yes, you've got the right email address, and please accept my apologies for that again. It was very unfair.

Hey, have a great Crassmas!

AboutFarce, no apologies necessary, a small case of mistaken identity was no problem to me.

Rjb, no. 15;

You couldn't make it up.

newlach, no. 21;

That's some really edifying, unpredictable material you've got there. Just in the interest of balance though, what did you make of the story of Fr Kevin Reynolds, referred to by John L Allen Jr as 'The new symbol of false sex abuse allegations' (see 'All Things Catholic' above left, 02 December article)?

'In May of this year, he was featured in a widely publicized investigative program on the Irish national television network RTE, provocatively titled "Mission to Prey."

[...] Dramatically, RTE journalist Aoife Kavanagh interviewed a Kenyan woman named Veneranda, who said Reynolds had raped and impregnated her in 1982, when she was just 14. She said she gave birth to a child named Sheila as a result of the rape, who also appeared in the RTE piece. He was also accused of secretly providing money to Sheila.

Armed with those charges, Kavanagh and a film crew caught Reynolds outside his parish one day after a First Communion Mass, recording the priest's sputtering denials that he was a pedophile and a rapist.

[...] After that exchange, but before the program aired, Reynolds sent RTE a letter from the bishop of Kakamega in Kenya, the diocese where he had served, insisting that Reynolds had a spotless record. Given recent history, RTE might be forgiven for disregarding a bishop's assurances. What should have given the network greater pause, however, was that Reynolds also volunteered to take a paternity test to demonstrate that he is not the father of the Kenyan child.

Nevertheless, the RTE broadcast went ahead, without waiting for any DNA results.
In the months since, it's become clear that the accusations are baseless. Two separate, and independent, DNA tests have established that Reynolds is not the father of the child.

Once that news became public, a political and legal melee ensued in Ireland. RTE launched an internal review, suspended the program that aired "Mission to Prey" and issued a public apology to Reynolds.

"RTE now fully and unreservedly accepts that the allegations made against Fr. Kevin Reynolds are baseless," the official apology read, "without any foundation whatever and untrue, and that Fr. Reynolds is a priest of the utmost integrity who has had an unblemished 40 year career in the priesthood and who has made a valuable contribution to society in Kenya and Ireland both in education and in ministry."'

...'All Things Catholic' above right, i mean.

Re Gaddafi,

Think about the drama the world was spared by Gaddafi being shot on sight.

Remember what happened to Saddam Hussain? A show trial. Civil unrest and associated terrorist acts in Iraq. An ugly and amateurish execution by hanging of an old man.

Gaddafi had 10 minutes of pain (courtesy of a UN bomb) followed by instant oblivion (courtesy of two shots to the head by a Libyan national).

No show trial. No opportunity for supporters to vent their spleen. No ugly and inevitable execution to 'moralise' over.

There is a fine line between morality and expedience.

Theophane

I am, of course, very pleased to read a story about a priest who is found not to be a paedophile or rapist. A woman and her daughter concocted a tissue of lies that was unfortunately accepted as truth by the programme makers. Just as Father Reynolds wants justice to be done in his case I want justice to be done in the case of all paedophile priests.

Did you read the article that Peter Klaver linked to? I do not want to use the word "balance" because the scales in this case fall very heavily to one side - the side with 800 child-molesting priests.

Of course important to state, in respect of Cloyne, that these are allegations. RTE and the Minister for Justice in the Reynolds case went swiftly from calling them allegations to revelations. The Cloyne report referred to allegations and how they were handled. Number of actually convicted priests after a proper trial? One.

Interesting, too, Mr Crawley, how instead of mentioning the introduction of the new translation of the Mass as the news item, you chose to focus on the negative reaction of a small number of priests. The new translation has been implemented almost everywhere with no negative reaction whatsoever.

What number of the alleged abusers are dead?

Why would so many people make up corroborating stories?

Why would the same names keep coming up?

What is it about the catholic church - no let's be fair - religious nuts of all colours, that this disease seems particularly communicable among them?

Why do I want to vomit when otherwise self-righteous people turn apologist on their behalf?

Hmm Fionnuala? Riddle me that.

Even a cursory glance at figures on the prevalence of sexual abuse will show that it occurs across all types of society. A line from the recent Dutch report specified that the prevalence in the Catholic institutions was the same as in other institutions.

Pointing out facts doesn't make you an apologist - it's what journalists should do and in these cases they should make clear that, unless someone is convicted in court they enjoy the presumption of innocence and allegations, however true, remain allegations.

AboutFarce (@ 30) -

...religious nuts...

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

31 Fionnula

No one disputes the fact that child abuse occurs outside of the Catholic Church, but what other church has paid hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation to the victims of paedophile priests? I also think it is misleading of you to focus on the number of paedophile priests convicted in the courts and to ignore the unassailable evidence of cover-ups that has been unearthed in the many investigations into the behaviour of predatory priests.

Do you remember the scandal that broke a year ago involving Cardinal Brady? Back in the seventies he was party to a deal in which a couple of youngsters were made to sign oaths of secrecy concerning the sickening abuse they suffered at the hands of notorious paedophile priest Brendan Smith. Do you think Brady's involvement in this business helped or hindered his career? Here is a recent story about the matter.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/cardinal-sean-bradys-payout-to-paedophile-priest-victim-16084890.html

Could I make an appeal to Catholics on here to maybe try telling the truth, even if it is a truth which is unpallatable to their particular tastes.

Fionnuala

"The new translation has been implemented almost everywhere with no negative reaction whatsoever." A blatant falsehood!

There has been a massive reaction throughout the English speaking world. People have walked out of their churches or have refused to contribute to collections or have continued with the old responses or have made their feelings known to other parishioners, on websites, in letters pages of newspapers, or have written to their priests and Bishops (with no response!)

The fact is, there is no real forum for their complaints to be listened to. Fast on the heels of the abuse scandal, ordinary Catholics have just about had it with the hierarchy.

Maybe Fionnuala you should start reading National Catholic Repoorter or following the Association of Catholic Priests websites.

I am one priest who will not say this Mass and I know many others, Jesuits, Dominicans and ordinary parish priests who find it an insult to their intelligence and wont say it either. We also have an issue with the bullying way it has been imposed with not a shred of consultation with anyone.

Here is some reading material for your perusal.

https://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/mapping-liturgical-sentence

https://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/california-parish-prepares-new-missal-weeks-explanation

https://ncronline.org/blogs/peace-pulpit/coming-jesus-everything-changes

https://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/new-missal-could-drive-away-catholics-california-parish

https://ncronline.org/news/hidden-exodus-catholics-becoming-protestants

https://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/making-do-faulty-translation

https://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/slavishly-literal-translation-missal-criticized

https://ncronline.org/blogs/bulletins-human-side/rome-burning-new-texts-are-fiddling

And very best of all:

https://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/16-year-old-latin-whiz-finds-new-liturgy-language-lacking

Please feel free to read the blogs which accompany the above articles and you might get some idea of the very deep hurt and frustration of ordinary Catholics!

The website - Why dont we just say wait? - has tens of thousands of signatures and even the Irish clergy begged the Bishops to stall this disgraceful imposition, but were ignored. The morale of ordinary English speaking Catholics and priests is at an all time low and if you dont realise this you need to start going to Mass somewhere other than the telephone box you prese

presently attend.

A wee Christmas cookie recipe for you, Fionnula.

https://associationofcatholicwomenbloggers.blogspot.com/2011/12/christmas-cookies-recipe-revised_21.html

@31.Fionnuala,
It's the same situation here in the States.
Children are easy targets for sexual predators, period.It happens in every institution: public & parochial schools, Boy Scouts, athletics-you name it.And every institution tries to protect the offenders in some way, just like our recent news at Penn State University.
I don't think the situation differed years ago but there was more stigma attached to reporting sexual crimes-both for adults & minors.
The concentration on this issue within the Church is often fueled by anti-Catholic agenda.

@35.romejellybeen,
The new translation came & went without one comment in our parish excepting our elderly priest keeps stumbling a bit in the wording & the congregation has to help him out.Absolutely no one else here cares. Really. I think they should a little, though, because it's a much better translation & puts us back there with the Spanish translation which was & is more accurate.
I don't know a soul who reads the National Catholic Reporter. Maybe folks do up North.But it's a liberal publication with a liberal agenda.I prefer the National Catholic Register, which is a conservative Catholic publication with a conservative agenda."First Things" is similar but not so much Catholic."Our Sunday Visitor" is kind of middle of the road.If you read all the above you'll get a more balanced view, but seriously, the new translation's a non-issue here.And we don't have phone boxes, either.
Merry Christmas!

PS:
Here's some links to the publications I mentioned.
Not to beat up on mr rjb, but there are other U.S. Catholic publications besides the N.C. Register,lots of them actually, with many differing takes on things. After all "catholic" means universal. Folks outside the States should get a balanced picture of American faith/ethics.Goodness knows Hollywood doesn't provide that.


https://www.ncregister.com/

https://www.osv.com/

https://www.firstthings.com/

Speaking of Mass translations & language, here's an article I saw in the N.C. Register:


Latin Makes a Comeback
"From language immersion classes to interest in the origins of the new Mass translation, a ‘dead language’ reveals new strength."


Read more: https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/latin-makes-a-comeback/

(My son's home for Christmas & told me he tested out at graduate level in French because of his previous studies in Latin.He never took a single course in French & I'm pretty sure he'd be lost if asked to converse in it, but at least in an online exam, his Latin knowledge allowed him to make enough educated guesses to test out of college-level French.)
https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/latin-makes-a-comeback/

mscracker

I prefer reading material which has neither a liberal or conservative agenda but deals with the teaching of Jesus Christ and actively seeks truth.

Jesus Christ exhorted us to call our Father 'Abba' (Daddy.) The veil of the temple was torn in two at Christ's death, so Matthew tells his Jewish audience i.e the distance between God and humanity was demolished forever. Jesus taught that the Kingdom is among us - not on a distant cloud or in some Never, never land.

You personally have spent hours this Advent listening to the words Emmanuel - God WITH us.

Apart from the school boy bullying way this Mass has been imposed, the language used - "Lord, we dare to address you" - and the like, is a sin against the Incarnation, a return to 'appeasing' an angry, distant God who is always ready to smite us.

The new translation also tries to return us to a focus on our sinfulness and unworthiness i.e. guilt and shame. It is sexist and exclusive and attempts to place the clergy back on their pedestals, way above mere mortals.

The language employed is also a return to Roman Imperialism, a time when it is almost universally accepted that the Church was corrupted by Constantine.

It is also heretical - Christ died for all - not many. "Consubstantial" is a meaningless word, a made up word, laughed at by Philosophers through the ages - how can God be a substance?

If your reading material is simply anything that will reinforce your own prejudices and ignorance, you are not going to learn much. That's fine, but dont expect the rest of us to follow.

romejellybeen, no. 35;

I've never understood why a tiny minority is so pre-occupied with the arcane minutiae of liturgical translations - most people couldn't give two figgy puddings about it.

newlach, no. 34;

Your posts are like a parody of anti-Catholic bilge. In #34, in two short paragraphs you use the word 'priest' four times, predicated by 'paedophile' three times and 'predatory' once. But your concern is categorically NOT with higher moral standards - your agenda is to promote abortion and reinforce our society's morbid fascination with the idea that sex and reproduction should be treated as two different things.

A current BBC article has the headline;

"Gay marriage 'improves health'"

Christians believe that 'marriage' is between one man and one woman. The key thing is not to think about it too hard.

mscracker

The notion that we are a 'universal' church is another nonsense. A bit like you Americans using the term 'world series.' It is the Roman Church, ruled by Rome, centralised in Rome.

And why should 'folks' read these ultra conservative sites? We already know what they say - whatever Rome says.

See if you have the courage to break out of your comfort zone and have a wee listen to Christopher Hitchins and Stephen Fry, posted on another thread, but worth drawing your attention to it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5Yk8uMdJ8

Mscracker,

The Ulster thread is closed.

What did you think of The Story of Lucy Gault? It was good and everything peterm2 said on the Ulster thread. Imo it isn’t William Trevor's best. So before you shelve him,
I wanted to highly recommend Love and Summer to you. It’s better than brilliant.
To not spoil it, you might read only the first few paragraphs in this link, about Trevor:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/aug/22/love-and-summer-william-trevor


“It sounds like a life perfectly arranged, and may be so, especially in light of this new book (Love and Summer), which is also about achievable happiness at some level.”

@41. romejellybeen ,
As ever, I respect your right & other poster's rights to have differing opinions.
Reading material & its integrity/ability to instruct & edify is subjective.Ditto for political leanings & orthodoxy. We each see things through different lenses.
I just want to see balance presented when referencing American publications to those abroad since I live here & attend Mass here.

Theo

"I've never understood why a tiny minority is so pre-occupied with the arcane minutiae of liturgical translations - most people couldn't give two figgy puddings about it."

I agree. Why did a tiny minority - Ratzinger and one South American Cardinal (who doesnt even speak English) - make such a fuss and impose this linguistic tripe upon the majority?

@43. romejellybeen,
I know from previous posts your comments are not specifically intended to appear patronizing to women, but perhaps you might step outside your own comfort zone to appreciate how this could be perceived? Thanks!

@44.marieinaustin,
Thank you very much. I did start to read Lucy Gault & I think I agree with you.But I'm very impatient with some fiction & read very little of it. So I'm happy to know the author has another book you can recommend.
You know, sometimes it's a cultural thing, too. There may be American fiction that's hard for readers abroad to appreciate in the same way.I love Flannery O'Connor but how does that translate to German or Irish readers? (It's even pretty weird for Americans.)

Ah Mr Newlach you're doing the work for me - money. It's a lot easier to get money from the Church than it is from your father or uncle who abused you. And when you don't even have to go to court because the Church is so afraid of being seen disputing with victims well it's even easier, isn't it. I merely make the point that people compare constant media coverage of allegations against priests (many of which are true I accept) with almost no coverage of any other type of abuse. It's a question of balance and perception. Ask any girl what it's like to be in a club on a Saturday night and you'll hear plenty about abusive men who aren't priests.

I suspect almost no one was aware of Brady's involvement until recently and it has done him enormous damage. His standing in Ireland and Rome is at rock bottom.

As for Mr Been - well you could read endless articles by liberal clerics in their liberal journals - but if you talk to people who go to Mass in Ireland the general feeling is "what was all the fuss about?" There is a lot of misinformation about. I read an article where the author swore that the word "men" had been added to the words fo consecration. I can find very little change of this sort and certainly nothing to offend me. The creed says "men" as it always has. It doesn't offend me in the slightest - my little feminine brain is perfectly capable of knowing that it's being used in the traditional inclusive sense.

As for your cookie recipe - well it shows very well what you think of liturgy - and too much of liturgy has read like a cookery show. We're making a sacrifice, not a souffle.

42 Theophane

I used the words "paedophile" and "predatory" as attributive adjectives to modify the noun "priest(s)" because these words were appropriate. I was commenting on the subject of child abuse in the Catholic Church, an activity that has involved paedophile priests. If you look at the link that I included you will see that it contains the words "paedophile" and "priest" side by side. I am not the only person in the world to use the words "paedophile" and "predatory" in an attributive manner. I have not counted the number of times I have used the words "paedophile", "predatory" and "priest", but I shall assume that you can count to four.

49 Fionnuala

Why confine my abuse to either my father or my uncle, would it not make more sense if it was half-a-dozen priests at the same time! Simply because I want to see children protected and paedophile priests put behind bars you lump my relatives in with the likes of Brendan Smith. You are an out-of-control ranter!

Mr Newlach - I have no idea really what you are talking about. If people really were motivated by the desire to protect children then the efforts and the commentaries would focus on the principle abusers i.e. family members - but journalists, lawyers and professional anti-Catholics aren't interested.

mscracker

In post 43 I made no mention of women. What are you talking about?

Fionnuala

Yes, you are new to this. The subject of clergy abuse has been one of the main topics on here for three years now. You might like to read back and see what has been written regarding attempts to 'move the goal posts' away from clergy onto uncles, social workers, youth workers, the police, parents, secularism, Woodstock (The US Bishops Conference!!), the Media, etc... the list is endless.

Many of OUR PRIESTS, who were entrusted with the care of our children, behaved in the most dispicable and evil manner. You might like to reflect on that for a while before you start pointing a finger at other groups in society. Until you actually 'get that', you are part of the problem.

Alot has also been written with regard to the damage caused which is specific to 'holy men' abusing children.

Your starting point, like others before you, is - I must run to the Church's defence - and so I look forward to you trotting out the same lame excuses and minimalizing that others have done before you.

Mr Been? Ho ho ho!

@52. romejellybeen,
It's a bit like beating a dead horse sometimes.But I apologize if my remarks were unclear.Perhaps we should just move on.
"Moving the goal posts" would do a world of good actually, if it allowed society to examine child abuse as a whole.
@51. Fionnuala,
Exactly. One only has to spend a little time in court to see the overwhelming source of child abuse cases.

PS:
Thank you all for allowing me to post comments here even though I'm not in the UK nor Ireland.
I often find disagreement & opposing views but it's been a learning experience & with very few exceptions, your posts tend to be much more civil than those we see online in the States.Which I appreciate.(And even the less-civil posts are at least worded well.)
Wishing you each a Merry & Blessed Christmas-all 12 days worth!

Merry Christmas to you too mscracker, and to RJB, AboutFarce, marieinaustin, newlach, Ryan, LSV, Andrew, peterm2, newdwr54, Casur1, Will, grokesx, Peter, Fionnuala, Eunice, PeterKlaver, paul james, Natman, Helio, Gerry, MCC, brianmcclinton, LucyQ, Dave, Pope Benedict, Germaine Greer, Polly Toynbee, Harry Redknapp, Catherine Pepinster, Professor Richard Dawkins and all the moderators and to everyone associated with W&T.

Fionnuala,

“It's a lot easier to get money from the Church than it is from your father or uncle who abused you.”

There is so much to say on why sexual abuse outside the Catholic Church doesn’t get the treatment that sexual abuse inside the Catholic Church does. Here’s my feeble attempt.

They say anywhere from 1 in 10 to 1 in 5 - sounds alot - men are sex abusers of children. The majority of abuse happens in families. The majority of all sex abuse victims are girls. The one thing abusers have in common is a pre-existing relationship with and/or access to their victims.

Children abused by family members, like all abused children, often believe the abuse is their own fault. The other parent is often not ‘safe’ to go to, is in denial, and in some cases the other parent also blames the child. The child might have great fear of breaking up the family, and worry about her/his own survival in that case. If the child shares with a sibling, the sibling may also be in denial, himself trying to survive life in such a family. Even as an adult, it’s one person’s word against another.

The victims/survivors of priestly sex abuse have been able to come forward, often years later, because they now have the support of other survivors of the same abusers - I think this is key, oftentimes they have support of their families, and especially they have the support of the greater community and the courts. Unlike survivors of family sexual abuse, they are being believed.

When a small First Church of Whatever in south Austin discovers its abusive leader, it makes the local news, only. The national media in the US does cover child abuse stories, unrelated to churches, usually when the child is missing or found dead. There is much secrecy and isolation in highly dysfunctional families.

Fionnuala,

“And when you don't even have to go to court because the Church is so afraid of being seen disputing with victims well it's even easier, isn't it.”

I do not begrudge survivors of priestly sex abuse their day in or out of court, or their financial restitution.

When looking at the worldwide problem of child sex abuse, the Church does appear to be a scapegoat. It’s easier to focus on it because it’s an international institution, its leaders supposedly teach about and represent God – which is an important point as others have stated, and its victims are in a position to have the greater support they need. To me those are not reasons to be lax on the Catholic Church.

If the Church can be turned around, and (I don’t know) perhaps zero priests being allowed enough proximity to develop a relationship with a child...members encouraged to keep an eye on all priests, for the good of the Church, instead of protecting the priests...the Church’s body being made to pay restitution for (unspeakably, until now) horrific behaviour among their leaders...the Church could possibly, maybe, in the future, truly eliminate sexual abuse from happening within the Church. If that were to happen, a child in Church would be safer from predators than a child in many other locations. Do things appear to be going in that direction, or not?

55.

...and don’t forget Theophane! A Merry Christmas to Theophane, too! :)

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Marie - the idea that priests should be denied all access to all children and people be encouraged to spy on them is ridiculous - the proposal confirms the worst prejudices formed by the media.

Mr Been - you're a sad, angry little man, aren't you - do you attack everyone who disagrees with you? You think cos you've been posting here for years we've all to bow to your superior presence. Don't think so.

59. Fionnuala,

I meant to emphasize “develop a relationship with a child.” You could’ve used your imagination. You know, such boundaries are to protect adults as well, such as teachers and in this case innocent priests, from false accusations.

But I guess most church members aren’t prepared to acknowledge such boundaries are needed, even for the protection of children. So I take it a concerted effort for change won't be happening.

59. You seem to have a similar grasp of irony as 'Theo'. You refer to romejellybeen as Mr Been?! By the same token I could refer to you as Madam Ala , although Muslims may object ;)

Just to put this abuse debate in context- There's the proposed excommunication of a Maryknoll priest who has spoken out for the ordination of women.

He's hired Canon Lawyer Fr Tom Doyle to defend him. Tom Doyle claims that church teaching on the matter is not infallible and that the priest must follow his conscience.

Doyle also notes that not one priest or Bishop who was involved in the abuse of children, or in cover up, has been excommunicated.


Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos is representative of this culture at work- He sent a letter to a French Bishop in 2001 stating this Bishop would be known as 'a hero' among Bishops for protecting one of his priestly sons. (The Bishop had attempted to shield a notorious abuser priest from the French police.)

This is a Vatican culture where-

Fr Bruce Teague reported an abuser priest to the police - sacked.

Fr John Conley reported an abuser priest to the police - sacked by Cardinal Levada.

Two days after Ratzinger was made Pope he rewarded Levada by appointing him as head of the CDF.

The Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin has admitted that "a cabal" protecting clerical sex abusers may be operating at the highest levels in the Catholic Church.

In an earlier post you mention the prevalence of sexual abuse will show that it occurs across all types of society as if this is some sort of excuse. It's tantamount to saying criminality is as rife in the judiciary as it is in the 'career' criminal class. Society in the West has (in the past) placed its clerical class on a pedestal, with all the attendant respect & trust people often place in a representative of God. To many, if a representative of God commits an act like sexual abuse, confidence in the Church is shaken. In a civilised society, we expect perpertrators of sexual abuse to be brought to justice, instead we get those who act in accordance to the law being sacked- this is what destroys confidence & trust- this is where the problem lies - amplified by a Church which has nowhere else to lay blame but at its own door.

Another example of the thinking behind the current administration at the Vatican is it's attitude towards theologians- who are being stripped of their frontier spirit, forced to tow a party line. It's a suffocating blow to the liberality of a living, breathing church & its ability to adapt once this current Vatican leadership dies off.
John Thiel, president of the Catholic Theological Society of America, said he regrets recent Vatican interventions, calling them 'misguided' on several fronts.

"First, it wrongly assumes that the journal’s readership of professional theologians is incapable of making its own professional judgments about theological positions. Second, it seems to conflate theology and doctrine, wrongly thinking that theology’s task is the repetition of doctrine".

This is all clearly an internal reaction to a perceived reduction in their authority within society & a desire to consolidate power- but their grip might also suffocate the sensus fidelium

Fionnuala,

Marie: “...perhaps zero priests being allowed enough proximity to develop a relationship with a child...members encouraged to keep an eye on all priests...”

I admit I could have worded it better (see post 60). But,:

Fionnuala: “the idea that priests should be denied all access to all children and people be encouraged to spy on them is ridiculous...”

...your black/white, extreme thinking doesn’t help.

Thank goodness one school principal disregarded your ‘spy’ label and was aware enough to report activity to the Kansas City Bishop. This bishop was insanely lucky to escape indictment. Church members should now be hoping good things will come from his diversion program,...unless you/they don’t mind having this type of guy for a bishop, and someone such as Ratigan, who possessed child pornography, for a priest.

No worries, though. Abuse happens everywhere.

https://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/15/3267619/bishop-finn-avoids-indictment.html

'Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.'

Fionnuala,

"Mr Been - you're a sad, angry little man, aren't you - do you attack everyone who disagrees with you? You think cos you've been posting here for years we've all to bow to your superior presence. Don't think so."

I've posted here since before romejellybean started posting here, I think. I've read most of the posts he's ever made here. I would say that your characterisation of him does not do him justice.

Fionnuala

I disagree with many views on here but dont post on them, or if I do, I tend to post my view gently.

However, when it comes to certain issues - like the cancer of rampant and unaccountable clericalism (one of the root causes of sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church), I will speak plainly.

The view that the new translation is being received without a word of disquiet is palpably and demonstrably tripe! I will not allow you to get away with that one unchallenged and have provided you with just a few of the links showing just how angry many of our brothers and sisters are at this imposition. Your response is to start calling me 'Mr Been.'

I also know a thing or two on the subject of priests abusing children and can spy denial at fifty paces. OUR priests abused, OUR Bishops - to their eternal shame - covered up. And OUR Pope is up to his mitre in it. I wish it wasnt the case, but sadly it IS the case.

For me, being a priest isnt about pretence (dressing up in robes and taking part in religious theatre certainly strikes me as 'pretence'.)

Grappling with real pain, tragedy and evil, standing beside the poor and speaking out against corruption - especially where it exists within our own Church - IS to be a priest. It is, in my humble opinion, to take up one's cross.

Hope your shopping went well....

From time to time on this blog there have been various attempts made to smear my good name by labelling me anti-Catholic. Well, I'd like the top story to be that I'm not! This is the time of year when Christians of all persuasions think of the baby Jesus born in a manger over 2000 years ago to a virgin mother (well, the virgin part of the nonsense is at least laughed at by a good many Christians today!). I am more interested in what is happening n our world today and less about fairy stories. This is why it saddens me to read in today's news that the Church of England has set up an inquiry into "sex abuse vicar diocese".

https://www.northantset.co.uk/news/local/inquiry_is_set_up_into_sex_abuse_vicar_diocese_1_3365688

Admittedly the problem of paedophile clerics is not so great in the Church of England as it is in the Catholic Church, but we must not forget that the problem is not confined to the Catholic Church. Of course, the evidence of cover-up in the Catholic Church is much greater.

The last thing I read about Cardinal Law was that he was treating a lot of Vatican dignitaries to a lavish meal in celebration of his 80th birthday. It makes me wonder what a man must do to be treated with contempt.

https://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1378486

RJB
I do admire your restraint but the more I read the more my worst fears are confirmed that Fionnuala and Theophane represent the authentic voice of the lay church and the extent of the Augean task that remains for you and other genuine reformers.
Take heart and continue the good fight, and enjoy your holiday.

Heard an interesting take on the three Shepherds visit to the newborn Jesus.

Shepherds were considered a bit 'dodgy' in those days. But these three were actually the shepherds who looked after the flock belonging to Joseph of Arimathea, the man who supplied the lambs for slaughter at the Temple. They were actually respected and seen as doing a 'holy' job.

Luke's listeners get the significance of these shepherds (for Matthew its the three kings.) Luke has John the Baptist acclaiming Jesus, "Behold the lamb of God!" He is the lamb who is going to be slaughtered, just like the lambs the shepherds look after.

https://ncronline.org/news/spirituality/instinct-worship

Happy Christmas, everyone.

I note the Pope was exhorting us all to "see through the superficial glitter of this season" as he spoke from the majesty of the Vatican in the midst of all the pomp and ceremony that edifice can muster. Nice clothes too - Santa was kind.

In a less ironic way I hope everyone has the season they wish for and that you, your family and friends are all stronger because of it.

Happy Holidays.

The biggest scoop of 2011 is 'LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY".
You got the power = you got the right - the right to drop bombs laced with depleted uranium, the right to pollute (as in Nigeria Delta and Gulf of Mexico), the right to twitter revolutions, the right to assassinate, the right to lie & to do all sorts of non-Christian things that will probably not bother your conscience much at Christmas.
I have to wonder how many people remember: The Golden Rule in any format whatsoever. It's written into almost every religion, but seems not to bind the powerful elites who can do onto others what they will, simply because they can.

i wasn't aware that referring to people as Mr would cause trouble - it's hardly a big deal given the names are mostly made up I would have thought.

I didn't say there was no opposition to the new translation - just that the characterisation of mass oppostion is patently untrue - the translation has gone ahead in the vast majority of parishes with no hint of opposition. I was at Midnight Mass last night and 12 today and "and with your spirit" and "consubstantial" didn't seem to cause the congregation to collapse in a heap.

I stick to my position that priests should and must be able to develop relationships with children - if we don't allow this we're building up a store of trouble for the future. Do we really want odd priests who aren't able to relate to children? Isn't that how problems start.

As for comparing judges and criminals - well in this particular instance there are probably as many child abusers among judges as among ordinary decent criminals.

71. Fionnuala

“I stick to my position that priests should and must be able to develop relationships with children - if we don't allow this we're building up a store of trouble for the future. Do we really want odd priests who aren't able to relate to children? Isn't that how problems start.”

I don’t understand how you can be concerned about child sexual abuse in other parts of society, yet not be concerned about priests developing relationships with children. We’re talking about a relationship between a child and an adult who is not the child’s parent, and you don’t seem to be able to admit that boundaries are needed. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you.

In many cases where the priests got a ‘warning,’ the priests were reminded of boundaries. Apparently, Finn “ordered Ratigan to maintain proper boundaries,” but it didn’t work.

Priests who do not understand the need for boundaries in adult/child relationships may be ‘odd’ already, and may believe they ‘relate to children.’ How scary is that?

I’m not putting anyone on trial here. I’m not saying priests need to avoid all contact with children. I am a bit unsure about the need for a relationship between a child and a priest, or a child and a teacher for that matter. However, if it's always in a group setting, I'm fine with it. I’m looking for the solution.

This Christmas Day has been marked by a series of horrific bomb attacks on churches in Nigeria. Innocent people have been killed.

Now I wonder whether certain people who frequent this blog, who are not slow to highlight the criminal acts committed by a small number of professing Christians (you know who you are), will have the integrity to come on here and express some kind of sympathy when innocent Christians become victims of unspeakable evil?

Let's wait and see.

Eunice.

My response to your post on the closed thread, 'Is there a spiritual cure for HIV'

You say, 'What if.....the truth is that you (and every other human being) is a Son of God and that there is not just one Son......but billions of us? (mostly all living oblivious to the fact that every human being is a Son of God of course' That's what I meant when I referred to God as my Father in Heaven. (and) '...all I'm saying is that you are love....nothing nasty and def no need to worship or subjugate oneself'. Not quite with you on this bit, however. I am imperfect and want to be more like Him. If I submit to His will I will become more like Him.

You say, 'What if ....Jesus' death does not wipe away 'sins' (or choices)' I have found out by experience that if I repent of the wrong choices I make and ask for forgiveness, the Saviours atonement dissolves my pain, regret, disappointment, etc. and I return to joy and peace, contentment, acceptance, etc again.


You say, 'What if ....the truth is that the only person who can save you/one is yourself/oneself?' I half agree with that as salvation is worked out with 'fear and trembling' done in combination with the sacrifice the Saviour made when He overcome the consequence of sin and death. It's not asking Jesus to save but being obedient to his will, ie, having faith in Him.

You say, 'What if .....the truth is that the forces of evil do a very good job at keeping man from knowing who he really is...' I accept that but not all of it.

Fionnuala

"The new translation has been implemented almost everywhere with no negative reaction whatsoever" is exactly what you said.

I posted links to sites where people describe the negative reaction - their negative reaction in their parishes - but obviously it doesnt suit your viewpoint to accept that.

Mr Been was, and was intended by you, to be a derogatory remark.

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

73. logica_sine_vanitate

“This Christmas Day has been marked by a series of horrific bomb attacks on churches in Nigeria. Innocent people have been killed.”

Yes, it is very sad. I have been reading about that.

I add this link below, only because it includes the usual duelling comments at the bottom. and no answer. :-(

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/8977513/Boko-Haram-the-group-behind-the-Nigerian-attacks.html

Puretruthseeker

thanks for your response.
I'll keep it brief as don't want to close down another thread!!! I seem to have a knack for that... :-))
I agree we are imperfect and it's not about being perfect.....but we are all able to express the love of God that resides innately within each person. It is our lovelessness that is the problem and perhaps in your language the more we submit to the will of love the more we will be like him....yet it is not to totally be like him but just to be you - expressing the love of God. As I understand it, it's more a case of undoing that which we are not to reveal that which we already are - for the love of God is already there within all.
Joy-full New Year to you and everyone else.

LSV

Shocking news about that bomb blast - it always is. Usually when a place of worship gets blown up Muslims are the victims and Muslims are the culprits. Following the incident it is customary for someone to be interviewed who tells us that the bombers have misinterpreted some part of the Koran and guess what - they are not true Muslims! If the weaponry we have today was around at the time people authored the bible it would have been widely used by one religious sect against another; and more people would have been slaughtered in the name of the Christian god.

On a lighter note, Richard Dawkins is appearing in today's edition of The Infinite Monkey Cage, presented by Professor Brian Cox and funny man, Brian Ince. Much better than getting stoned to death by a mob enraged by that Christian good guy, St Paul!

https://bbc.kongjiang.org/www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018g3ns

Happy holidays!

I rather liked the Queen's Christmas message this year.

https://www.staffordcarson.com/2011/12/the-queens-christian-christmas-message/

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It was rather humorous to hear a message about the importance of family from the head of the world's most famous, dysfunctional family.

It was only bettered by a message about "the superficial glitter" of Christmas from a man wearing, and surrounded by, the most superficial glitter outside the Liber Archie museum - The Pope.

Both chose to speak about the Christ child born into poverty and both seem to miss the point that this child would grow into a man who would be outspoken against privilege, riches and the exploitation of the poor.

Next year's Christmas address should be given by Homer Simpson!

Andrew, no. 79.

The Queen's Christmas address was indeed a marvellous tonic;

"Although we are capable of great acts of kindness, history teaches us that we sometimes need saving from ourselves - from our recklessness or our greed. God sent into the world a unique person - neither a philosopher nor a general, important though they are, but a Saviour, with the power to forgive.

Forgiveness lies at the heart of the Christian faith. It can heal broken families, it can restore friendships and it can reconcile divided communities. It is in forgiveness that we feel the power of God’s love."

And i'm not suggesting you would do this Andrew, but before anyone calls into question Catholics' loyalty to Queen and country, it's perhaps worth remembering;

Oliver Cromwell succeeded where Guy Fawkes failed.

Having considered Williams, Nichols and others Cranmer says it well;

There was only one Church leader who spoke inspirationally of courage and hope; only one who used the occasion to speak of the importance of family, friends and the indomitable human spirit. Only one who spoke of the gospel of forgiveness, the uniqueness of Jesus the Saviour, the love of God through Christ our Lord:

https://www.archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/

Eunice

I generally concur with you. We can never be perfect in this life. However, we are to strive for perfection. This means that we have to try to overcome our base desires and strive to be like God. Remember Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." I know this means to be like Him in everything but personality and individual spirit which differentiates us all. Yes, it's about striving for the perfect love which He expresses. Our ability to understand God depends on our capacity to express love. The more we love like Him the more we understand. The less we love like Him the less we understand.

I am amazed at the love my Father in Heaven has for me and us all. As I have come to know Him I have been able to understand some of His actions which have been misunderstood. His action to destroy all of mankind at the great flood, for example, was an act of mercy for all His children who would be born subsequently. What chance would a new born baby have had at the time of Noah when the populated world was full of iniquity and violence (more so than what we have ever known)? Should God have allowed the iniquity and violence to continue for a child to grow up in that culture or was it more merciful for the culture to be destroyed for the subsequent children to have a chance? Knowing God as i do, it is obvious that He had to terminate the life of the unrepentant for the sake of the world continuing to a time when a Saviour would appear to complete His work and for man to develop to a point that there were no more babies, or spirit children, left to come to earth? That point is getting nearer all the time and God's love has been perfect and unwavering. I would like to love like that some day.

@56.marieinaustin ,
Thank you for your balanced,thoughtful & logical post.I wish there were more comments like that here.
Hope you & your's had a merry Christmas!

@59. Fionnuala,
I think when one is an orthodox Christian & a woman to boot, you need to be prepared to get pounced on by folks here who have differing political/philosophical outlooks.As a woman, I admit I may be oversensitive & read more into comments than is there, but that said, I do feel some patronizing in these threads.
Here in the States, conservative women-or simply women who don't fit in the box society's made for them-have a hard time.It's OK to be an "uppity woman" as long as you are uppity in the politically correct fashion.
I do see it working both ways, to be fair, but I think Christians get beat up online more often.And if we complain it's tossed aside as "whining" or a persecution complex.Rude or uncharitable comments from the other side are excused as "robust conversation."
I hope you keep on posting.

For Christmas, my son gave me a DVD series currently being aired on PBS: "Catholicism" by Father Robert Barron. I've only watched 2 episodes but really recommend what I've seen so far.Maybe it's available on UK stations, too?

"Father Robert Barron is an acclaimed author, speaker, and theologian. He is the Francis Cardinal George Professor of Faith and Culture at Mundelein Seminary near Chicago and also is the founder of Word On Fire (www.WordOnFire.org).


Fr. Barron is the creator and host of CATHOLICISM, a groundbreaking ten-part documentary series and study program about the Catholic faith. He is a passionate student of art, architecture, music and history, which he calls upon throughout his global travels in the making of the documentary"
https://www.wordonfire.org/

@82. Theophane,
I liked the Queen's message, too. Thank you for sharing part of it.

85. Thank you, mscracker, we did -- over two weeks ago! My large family is spread out now, with in-law obligations, and my sister had to work at a small-town hospital in Arkansas all Christmas weekend. So this year, schedules permitted an early Christmas.

On Christmas Day, my neighbour and I shared a peaceful Christmas lunch, a walk, and a Scrabble match. It was very nice...except I kept getting duplicate consonant letters and she kept getting vowels!

Paul James

# 67.

If this thread is anything to go by, you are spot on.

Puretruthseeker
I agree that the more we love, the more we know and the more we know the more we love.
Also I agree that God's love is unwavering and constant and as such I do not hold him responsible for the suffering and tragedy and evil in the world. For me, they are a consequence of us living in separation to Love, to God and the fulfilment of energetic laws - a consequence of our own mind-driven loveless choices. Hence that is why (in my understanding) we can only save ourselves by coming to know who we are and being empowered to live by the ways of love. I know you disagree with that (re the saviour part) and that is fine....I'm just sharing an alternative view /understanding. Have fun :- )

86 mscracker- To be fair, It was hardly one sided! Hope you had an enjoyable Christmas day btw :)

I wonder does anyone else get this impression- it seems the term 'Traditional' Catholic is often displaced by 'deferential'- we are greeted with silence from traditional Catholics over the internal handling of abuse by the Catholic Church- with focus instead shifted elsewhere. The real issue here is perpertrators of sexual abuse are often protected whilst priests acting in accordance to the law are sacked. So what takes presidence according to traditional Catholics- the Church or the Law? This is where the problem lies. A 'hero' in the estimation of Cardinal Hoyos is one that shields a notorious sex abuser from the authorities. A Cardinal deemed worthy of promotion by Ratzinger is one who sacks a priest for acting in accordance with the law.

Traditional Catholics, by their deference to the 'cabal' protecting clerical sex abusers at the highest levels in the Catholic Church-as the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin highlights- are complicit with criminality. Coupled to the support they offer in opposition to equal rights- they display themselves as a disruptive, anti-social element within society who do not respect or uphold elements of the law that run contrary to the actions of their religious leaders.

Hey lsv, you might find this an interesting read- the article's a few years old but gives a good account to the modern causes of conflict between Muslims & Christians in Nigeria- God’s Country

mscracker,

Cleopatra was our chance. *If only* her ship had continued forward. Maybe she and Antony would have been killed -- but maybe not. Perhaps they would have ruled Rome together. The triumvirate would have dissolved or included a woman, and then perhaps Roman soldiers would not have killed someone like Jesus.

We would both be whistling our own tune !!, and our whistling wouldn’t be considered a bad thing, and we wouldn’t be whistling in the wind!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

94. Yeh, that was a bit out there.

@92. _Ryan_ ,
You are entirely correct. It's never one sided. Thank you for mentioning that.

Here, where we live, "traditional Catholic" might have a different meaning. It's often folks who actually have little regard for the Vatican or pope's authority, & who may be schismatic.They think Rome has gone completely astray since Vatican II. I've known a couple of families like that who will only attend the Tridentine Mass (pre-Vatican II Latin Mass.)If that's not offered on a regular basis in their diocese, they end up creating their own church/chapel outside the diocese & hire a priest who conforms to their demands.
I love the Tridentine Mass, Gregorian Chant, etc. but that's not what makes us Catholic.Neither does good taste in liturgical music.In fact these days, at least in America, hearing mediocre music on Sundays almost by default makes one Catholic.Here we're the blue collar, immigrant's church that was/is comprised by all sorts of folk speaking different languages. Coming together to create a unified hymnbook of exceptional sacred music just hasn't happened yet.
On this side of the Atlantic, the priests I've seen in the news & Catholic press who've been connected with child abuse come from varying traditions & don't all defer to Rome or have much respect for Church authority. They're just predators who had access to kids, period.
You're right that Church hierarchy has at times done a lousy job handling this.But so do most institutions. The first instinct in many institutions, sadly, is to protect one's self & one's peers, not the victim. This seems to be changing slowly, but human nature being what it is, I think it's always going to be an element in abuse cases.Reading about banking institutions & the way they've handled the recent foreclosure crisis presents a similar scenario.

And thank you, I did have a very nice Christmas & hope you did as well. Our weather might have made you feel right at home-foggy, blustery, cold & rainy.
:)

@94. marieinaustin,
But we might still be whistling Dixie......
:)

@91. Eunice,
Theologically, I'd differ a bit on the "saving" part of your post, but I think you've got the "loving" part absolutely right.
A Merry Christmas Season!

# 97

mscracker

"They're just predators who had access to kids, period."

And the the Bishops, Cardinals and Popes were just nice guys who didnt want to cause any bother.

Now that I understand, I dont know why I got myself in such a tizzie about it all.