Sunday Sequence visits Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle

The knives are well and truly out for Jim McConnell. And yet again, we'll have a long list of disgruntled comments from miserable Christians to keep this thread going for another few weeks until another comes along. Well done William! Hope you're enjoying yourself...

what do you mean by your above comments dom

Oh for pities sake!

What do you all mean by all your comments. Thank you.

John

What do I mean? What do you mean, what do I mean? I mean, what do you mean asking me what I mean; I meant what I said for pities sake!

:-)

petermorrow, very good lol, But what do you mean?????

What do I mean? (sorry, couldn't resist!)

I'm standing in fear of another six hundred and sixty gazillion postings!

I make the current count 1360 comments about a church split; if it's that bad (and I've no idea how bad it is) just go and talk to each other. Pick up the phone, knock a door, send a text, drink coffee; ask someone you think you can trust a few questions to try and satisfy yourselves as best you can about what did or didn't happen and then make a decision. Stay and try to make things better, or go somewhere else you think you can fit in. If you can't get answers then bite the bullet and walk. Honestly, God won't mind.

If someone asks you what happened answer them honestly without resorting to slander or gossip; if mistakes were made, be they big or small, own up, say, yep we goofed up, and try and put things right. But do something, let it go, move on, but whatever else, don't get stuck in a destructive rut.

Peter,

Clearly what you mean is that I have the means to mean whatever I mean and it would be mean to claim that i don't. Now stop it. I mean it.

John

You're a meanie.

Peter

It all means nothing to me, absoloutly meaningless.

Look above the your comment box all posts are moderated What does this mean?

Mean mean mean mean mean

"(O)ur accounts are open to anybody who wants to look at them if they are members of this church."

Most churches present accounts to their members annually at a business meeting. At such meetings people are usually allowed to ask questions from the open floor to a treasurer. Is that the case at Whitewell? Or is Pastor McConnell saying that members of Whitewell have to seek out financial information themselves?

In addition, are these accounts externally audited and, if so, by whom?

When did the last church business meeting take place? What was on the agenda?

Who are the seven trustees?

McConnell is an old semantic at heart, when he said that they had a business meeting he didnt elaborate on what he actually meant by business meeting, I presume that he wasnt referring to an open congregational business meeting, but to a closed one of the WW hierarchy as he said that we have a business meeting and then he tells the people.

McConnell said that the accounts are open to the members of Whitewell, but what about those who attend the church and are not communicant members and use envelopes and sign gift aid declarations so that WW can claim tax on tithes given by non communicant members, do they not have the same right as a WW member who doesnt tithe or have WW envelopes.

Its a sad day when an organization such as Sinn Fein shows more financial transparency than WWMT by publishing their accountants for public scrutiny. Should not the Body of Christ be more open than a worldly political party, why should a church within the Body of Christ behave in such a clandestine manner by hold their business meeting behind closed doors not open to the congregation.

Peter Morrow's comment on post7 is by far the most sensible in this entire blog. It's worth a read.

From the context of the questioning, the interviewer was trying to find out the internal procedures by which Whitewell conducts important business. A meeting involving salaried employees of the church and/or a handpicked clique would not constitute a church business meeting as most people would understand the term.

Its not good enough to try to sweep this under the carpet. There are far too many legitimate questions to be answered about the stewardship of vast amounts of money. If the internal structures of Whitewell do not allow members to perform this scrutiny adequately, then it becomes a matter of legitimate public interest.

Does anyone know if the church has a formal constitution?

Some people just go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

Know what I mean?

LOL Domjoly - and very true.

dom nice attitude well i suppose thats what we come to expect. well you see dom people have been asking these questions for years and your attitude sums a lot of it all up. dont answer questions theres more important things happening and great things at that and as christians you shouldnt be asking these things. well dom enough is enough. now you consider this. someone say goes and gets a bank loan for the romanian orphanage maybe 10,000 pays 300- 400 per month to it and goes without holidays luxuries for the next 5 years to pay this. now he sees the leadership of ww living well and enjoying many benefits and the horor horors the thing he borrowed the money for is destroyed!!! no explanation no nothing. now what does he do? well according to you he just moves on!!! he has no right to ask questions the leader says thats the only way to deal with it. now cosider this dom if this was done in any public sphere the person who done this would be accountable and if it was done by a politician they would be slated. a business man would be up in court and dom would say move on!!!! weve listened to these type of things for years dom let them go, but you say boring!!! when The Lord said you must be like a child to inhereit the kingdom of God I dont think he meant stay like one. look if your on bloggs be mature enough to answer questions in a good manner even sensible or is that to much to expect i beleive it is the case but who knows even children grow up!!! answer the questions dom and maybe people will stop blogging

REF 16


You do go on and on

When Supermac resigns will it be HOBSONS choice ????????????

by the way Dom the Lord answered questions and silenced everyone so that it is written that no man durst ask Him any questions!!1 selah

methinks that alot of people dont like answering questions

But what do you all mean.

perhaps the man should be praised for his actions instead of condemned - perhaps by his actions he prevented another kincora

If the Rector of my church announced out of the blue that he had just smashed up an overseas orphanage funded by the church to stop it falling into the hands of paedophiles, the churchwardens would be on to the men in white coats.

This whole episode sounds totally bizarre, in keeping with what we are now learning about Whitewell. I wonder if Pastor McConnell raised it in order to distract attention from the questions about his churchs alleged lack of transparency. If so, it has backfired on him. We have to ask yet more questions about the internal governance of Whitewell.

Heres a few off the top of my head:

1. Did Pastor McConnell consult anyone at Whitewell before going out to Romania with the sledgehammers?

2. What was the evidence of the alleged paedophile ring within the Romanian government, apart from whatever the Pastor thought he smelt?

3. The First Minister, his wife and the Finance Minister are all in church membership. Were representations made to any of them?

4. Was the matter ever discussed with former MEP Jim Allister for it to be raised in the European Parliament? (Romania is a member of the EU and is bound by EU criminal justice legislation.)

5. Were any representations made by Whitewell to the Foreign Office or to the Romanian embassy?

When will people learn that all your questions will never be answered. You've seen the attitude of people on here who just don't want to listen, and no one will acknowledge anything is going on and they will all go back to the stepford wives situation of crying "Peace Peace!"

I suspect Jimmy will "have to walk the plank " and fall on his sword

When we lie we lose respect for ourselves and for others. And when we've no respect for anyone we end up yielding to our impulses and indulging in the lowest forms of pleasure. " So" Be an example ...in the way you live " ( 1 Timothy 4:12 )

It is easier to maintain your integrity than to try and recover it.
In everything set - an example by doing what is good...show integrity..and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned,so that those who opose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say ( Titus 2.7.8 ) It may cost you to do the right thing but it will cost you more when you abandon your principles and do the wrong thing.

Domjoly - perhaps people would not go on and on if valid questions were answered.

To you Dom and Truthanator - Pastor McConnell stated to Malachi that he held an annual business meeting for members in which he goes "through all these (financial) particulars". Is this true or false?

what is the meaning of lilfe anyway?

Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever - Westminster Catechism.

Thing is, you'll either glorify His mercy, or you'll glorify His justice, either way, you will glorify God.

The facts are very clear about Romania, over the years they have had serious problems with paedophile rings trying to get Children from what has been wrongly labelled Orphanage's but infact are really called residential care centres.

So the media hype of pastor Mc Connell wrecking a Orphanage is not true.

Why, because most of the Children in these places where not Orphan's but a product off a long term ban on Contraception which resulted in a population boom.

Now over the years of Charity history from wherever, there has been many Homes, Hostels, Schools, Churches that have been completely knocked down and destroyed and yet no one even cared about it, so to single Whitewell out as the Monster is clearly wrong and comes from a bias view point.

Lastly, for over the life period off the Whitewell Church, people have always been very happy to give to support its work "BUT" the real truth is, that 99.9% of the people were not really concerned about any public accounts meeting but primarily of the importance off SAVING SOULS not BOWLS.

Princessnewsjunkie, some of the regulars of this blog occasionally get together for dinner. Probably again somewhere in September. If you care to join up, then drop me an email. I can't post it as the moderators would cut it out, but if you Google my name and 'Belfast' in the search term you would find the page of my old job at QUB. Please join in if you like.

Lets be clear...many 'questions' asked on this blog are not motivated by a genuine desire for answers. It's really about personal gripes and agenda's. For example, Post 26 reflects the result that the contributer would really like to see.

I should also point out that Post 20 is factually incorrect (i.e. the idea that Jesus answered every question). Jesus did NOT answer every question. E.G. The phariee's brought the woman caught in adultery. Should she be stoned? they asked. If Jesus said 'yes', then they'd accuse him. If he said 'No', they'd also accuse him. So Jesus didn't say anything - but wrote on the ground. Finally, Jesus asks a question 'If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone'. The Pharisee's weren't interested in the wellbeing of the woman. They were only interested in ruining Jesus. But they failed.

For those with genuine questions, I refer you again to the wise words on post 7.

dom ref above thats called answering a question with a question ie what should we do with the woman? answer he that is without sin cast the first stone. dom thats called answering their question!! anywat dom listen i hope all goes well for you and pas mconn and i really mean that i believe that the only person (within ww) that can pull this all together is pas mconn and i hope that he does.

Well then Secondmccullough, let me answer with a question:

'if any or you (blooggers) are without sin, let them be the first to cast a stone'

I am without sin,(the church uses sin as a form of inflicting and tormrnting people with guilt and also to control the sheep) so i will cast the first stone. ww and pcn want 10% of your income at least and dont allow anyone to disagree with their leadership.

Thanks Peter for the offer i might join you all in sept.

Reference post 35

Note that Jesus did not say:
"If any or you are without sin, let them be the first to ask a question."

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

God bless you dom, thanks for answering my question

Malachi O'Docherty wrote a very interesting article yesterday in the Belfast Telegraph on WMTB, particulary regarding the Romainian Orphanage incident.

This article has now been listed on Malachi's website, along with the previous interviews with James McConnell and a number of informative comments

https://malachiodoherty.com/

A number of insightful comments have been made exploring the reasons for James McConnell's autocracy at WMTB. I have listed them below. I think its important all WMTB members now honestly assess Mr McConnell's integrity and the church leadership structures in light of what is in the bible.

Two of the known prophesies/words from God that James McConnell has said have now been shown to be very questionable indeed. WMTB members need to question what he now says is direction "from the Holy Spirit"

[1] George McKim's sucession
[2] To build the Romainian orphanage

Reformer Says:
July 29, 2009 at 10:22 pm | Reply
Pastor McConnells power and authority in the WW government structure is unquestionaby different to the democratic and accountable models envisaged by the reformers.

If anything his dictatorship is more a kin to what the reformers strongly opposed in the Roman Catholic Church, the office of the Pope. Interestingly it is this church and its leader, that McConnell strongly attacks in his topical Sunday night sermons. Referring to the pope as the antichrist etc

His evangelical papal authority in WW is based on two spiritual pillars. Due to these following two reasons many of the ww membership take everything he says as almost from God Himself.

[1] The number of decisions every week made in WW to become born again Christians. This is taken in form of people raising hands in the appeal after his sermons. The logic promoted is if people are raising their hands [and assumed to all then to be saved] then God must be at work in WW and therefore the decisions made and behaviour of the WW leadership must also be in keeping with Gods will. It is assumed that if the decisions/behaviour of the leadership were not the will of God then people would not be raising their hands in the meetings.

[2] His accounts of angel visitations are not something I know as much of. Regardless of whether you feel that these were true or not. It is concerning that this is part of the reason for his total authority in the church. The Pope himself would not even make this claim.


Evangelical_Exile Says:
July 30, 2009 at 7:55 am | Reply
During my occasional visits to Whitewell 10-15 years ago, I was always struck by Pastor McConnell reporting to his congregation how many people had just been saved. But how could he possibly know something that can only ultimately be known to God? Even the individual can fool himself that because of a particular experience he is now a Christian. The evidence of a Christians conversion comes out of the way that they live their lives, not from a response at the end of a pressurised altar call.

I dont believe that any church leaders ministry can be validated on the basis of how many people profess salvation each week. I also think it is highly dangerous for a church to operate on the basis that its leader is a uniquely blessed Gods Servant and therefore not to be subject to effective scrutiny from members, if that is the case in Whitewell.

I seem to remember Pastor McConnell saying from the pulpit that, as a young boy, he was working in the shipyard when an angel came to him. The angel pointed to some workmen pouring liquid into various pots and asked the young McConnell how much blessing he would like God to pour into his ministry. McConnell said he wanted the largest pot and told his congregation that the present size of Whitewell is evidence of the fulfilment of that angelic promise.

In addition to his highly questionable statements which he says came from the Spirit realm. James McConnell showed in Malachi's interview his statements on what has happened in the physical realm are also HIGHLY questionable...

Are there *ANY* ardent ww members/leadership prepared to listen to Malachis interview with Pastor McConnell and BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO give an honest coherent response?

Regarding McConnells apparent claims of an annual ww business meeting in which church finances are discussed and the church accounts which are "open to everyone, if they are a member"

There have been NO such responses on this blog and on the malachiodocherty blog. Regular contributors characteristically defensive of the ww leadership such as REVDOCHOLIDAY, TRUTHANTOR, DOMJOLY, JONTHEEBAP have CONTINUALLY AVOIDED calls to listen to this interview and pathetically dismissed it offhand as gossip while censoring the comments of concerned present and ex-members.

I think this is actually quite RUDE to not bother listening to an interview your Pastor organised!

I would suggest all ww members listen to Pastor McConnells interview with Malachi *BEFORE* they contribute any more comments and answer the following questions

[1] Have they ever attended or been aware of an annual ww business meeting in which church finances inc the ww accounts are discussed as claimed by Pastor McConnell?

[2] If they are asked by the media will this say this claim is true?

[3]If you feel this is not true, how can you trust whatever else he has said about other situations eg Pastor McKim, Romania, ww finances, Pastor Lyons, Mrs Skilling?

[4]If Pastor McConnell did tell Malachi a lie and is unrepentant and refuses to apologise to Malachi. What does this mean to you in terms of the biblical judgement of the church and its leadership?

[5] If you find unrepentant lies unbiblical..is it therefore unbiblical to still support the church and its leadership?


PS I copied this from reformers blog

Hi princeEphraim

You have to allow for people to react with a certain amount of fear. These people aren't idiots, they are good people whose foundations have been shook already and have reacted conversely to yourself. They don't want to listen to the interview because they already suspect that what you say is true, but it is the same thing as when you attack anyone's idol, they don't want to hear it because of the implications of it being true.

I daresay your posts will be removed as mine was.

Further discussion is also required on WW's ideology. Although I want to stress the MAIN issue is now whether James McConnell told Malachi a lies about the WW business meeting and the availability of ww accounts

Reformer Says:
July 30, 2009 at 1:23 pm | Reply
I would also like to emphasise again and seek clarification some of the potential great and worrying dangers of WWs unusual ideology.

Is British Israelism still taught at a leadership level in WW? This teaching has no grounds whatsoever in biblical, genetic or liguistic findings. It is arguably mild white supremacist racism at best. The more extreme elements of this teaching are against inter-racial marriage and the rights of people to follow different religions in the UK and USA. My concern is with this teaching being promoted in WWs foreign missionsis british israelism taught currently in Kenya or previously in Romania?

The attacks on psychiatrists and their prescriptions is also very concerning! Certainly I remember this being mentioned a number of times when I attended. This certainly is extremely dangerous if WW members with pschiatric illnesses were coming off their medications or refusing to attend appointments because of this teaching. Can anyone clarify how strongly and to what level this is enforced in WW?

Reformer Says:
July 30, 2009 at 5:40 pm | Reply
Just to clarify..as far as I know inter-racial marriage and freedom of worship in the UK&USA are not opposed at a leadership level at WW.

I was merely underlining some extreme views in the extreme followers of British Israelism ideology.

Let us all NEVER forget, that Pastor Mc Connell has helped untold thousands off people over the years, and took time to listen to all there problems, while other religious men would not even given them the time of day.

Anyone who has been helped by the pastor and is now turning against him should be ashamed of themselves especially the ones who are writing comments for the enemies of the gospel of GRACE to beat him with.

All of US have made some mistakes "BUT" because of our own importance we can't allow anyone else to make their own mistakes.

Lastly, yes, I would defend any truly Born Again person right from the Baptist to the Pentecostal after they have realised they have made bad choices which has cost them.

ps... not a member of Whitewell or for that matter any church.

Secondmccullough in comment 692 on the Tabernacle Turmoil blog you said;

"i think you will find the answer as to why pastor mcconnell does not show accounts is because if you read the very latest book he brought out believe it or not The Angel told him this was to be the way he was to run the finances of the ww church. now i think that all the other churches have got it wrong and they should listen to The Angel and should not reveal the accounts and maybe they will enjoy the blessing of The Lord!!!"

Could you please clarify which book this came from and quote directly what is says?? I think this is very important to the discussion

prince it was in the very latest book which was brought out

ill dig it up and get you the quote and exact page it is on

Thanks SECONDMCCULLOUGH....i am sure you understand why I think this important for the discussion!

EVANGELICAL_EXILE...unfortunately NO ONE is able to answer your questions such as: who makes up the 7 ww trustees...does ww have a constitution...are the ww accounts externally audited....what was the date of the ww business meeting, why did they not approach the proper channels if they were concerned about a paedophile ring etc

Because WW unlike EVERY other evangelical church to my knowledge does not think its IMPORTANT to tell its congregation such information. I wish certain WW members could see how little respect its leadership has for them.

ALL BLOGGERS...the financial information given by the WW leadership in Malachi's interview last weekend just raises more questions than it answers. Aside of the questionable statements regarding the financial transparency of the church. The figures themselves raise concerns...

The WMTB running costs were said to be circa £1.2million and there was 1100 people who were said to tithe in the form of envelopes with donations. McConnell regularly preaches that his congregation should tithe 10% of their income and consider making sacrifical offerings on top of this 10% tithe

So if we estimate a conservative circa 80% of the congregation were tithing 10% of the average £17k p.a. income this would amount to almost£1.5million alone. Which is GREATER by 250k than the running cost figure.

In addition to this are the other sources of income which I would not be able to estimate. But these include;

[1] Tithes of less than 10% ie the further 20% of the 1100 I did not calculate from

[2] Weekly offerings collected at every meeting

[3] 2-3 special gift days per year

[4] The proceeds of the dvd/book/cd sales

[5] Income derived from church concerts

[6] Renting the premises to various Christian music groups

[7] Charging members for weddings at WMTB

[8] Gift Aid

OBVIOUSLY we are look at a NET TURNOVER which is potentially HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF POUNDS over the running costs.

So DOMJOLY/REVDOC..do you want to hazard a guess where all this extra money is going to??

Even those of us with deep reservations about Whitewells ministry would not deny:
(a) that Pastor McConnell has reached out to people that others would have ignored, and
(b) that the church has done much good, in the Lords Sovereign Grace.

But the New Testament says that those shepherding the flock will be especially accountable to God for their actions. In their wisdom, the Reformers grasped that church leaders could best discharge this burden if they were also properly accountable to those they led. A church with internal checks and balances, whether formal or informal, and united in love under Christ, is the Biblical model of a fellowship.

There are good reasons to ask whether Whitewell conforms to such a model. In particular, questions arise over:

1. The unique personal authority of Pastor McConnell, as a church leader supposedly anointed by God in a way different to that of the average church leader and his grip over every aspect of the church.

2. The implications of this for Whitewells internal governance, including claims of a culture of secrecy and inappropriate stewarding of financial resources.

Its not good enough to suppress debate on the grounds that the Gospel will be harmed by disclosure. The blogosphere traffic on the subject is, in itself, evidence that Whitewell has failed to sort out its own problems internally, and perhaps that it cannot do so without radical change.

If the church continues to bury its head in the sand, then this will not be the last blog on the subject.

My comment in 49 was mainly how I calculated that WMTB'S net turnover would likely be many hundreds of thousands of pounds over the running costs of £1.2 million. And I questioned where this money was going to...

INTERESTING someone referred it to the moderators...

The teaching of angels within Pentecostal circles is very common and its no big surpise that pastor Mc Connell believes such, as he is a Pentecostal Minster.

Also, if I were to go around all the Churches represented by the bloggers who write comments on all subjects concerning Whitewell you would easily find Minster's who would not want the outside world to know their financial dealings or were the money is coming from to build a project, such as the lotto, or how much they were on, plus expenses or how many times they are at their church throughout the week to see their parishioners monday to friday from 8.30am-12.30am and the list could go on, but the main point is this, that Pastor Mc Connell earns his money 4 times over and deserves his pay maybe even more.

Lastly, we all know he could have done things to our taste, but then, we are not the ones who run or spent years building up the Whitewell work.

Has anyone anything new to say? Some new information perhaps, maybe a reassessment of their position or thinking? Progress? Hope for resolution? Anything?

John, what you've just said must be considered in the context of Pastor McC's telling Malachi that he had an annual business meeting for the members where he goes through all the (financial) particulars. Does this happen?

During my time in WW I watched friends pour in money that they could ill afford whilst there were those on the payroll who seemed to weather their giving rather better. Members are entitled to know how their money is being spent and how much pastors and staff are being paid in salary and expenses.

I recall Pastor McC telling a meeting that he'd been visited by an angel in a duffle coat when he worked in the shipyard. Yes, really. I hear the flapping of white coats ...

Please answer the points rather that attempt further censorship - you know it only diminishes you.

post 54.

I never once did I ever say that Whitewell does not need to change, of course it does, in respect of nearly all points raised starting with the situation with Pastor Mc KIM then the others one by one.

But you and others are still missing the point, Pastor Mc Connell is a Pentecostal Minister who believes in Angels, so he was not wrong in what he ever said according to his Pentecostal Faith.

Listen, there are millions of poor people giving to various Churches whose pastor's, priest's, bishops and even the pope himself live's a very find lifestyle more than what Pastor Mc Connell does and no one seems to raise an eyebrow, so lets all be honest and give Pastor Mc Connell a fair playing field.

PS... When someone says that an Angel came to them, it can mean various things such as... men or donkeys or Heavenly creatures.

John, thanks for this. You had the decency to answer my questions. Except for one. Pastor McC told Malachi O'Doherty that he had an annual business meeting for the members where he goes through all the (financial) particulars. Does this happen?

In terms of his angelic visitations what you are saying appears to be very much in keeping with the phenomenon of the virgin Mary appearing in the main only to Catholics. What these alleged angelic visitations do for PMcC is provide him with an aura of unquestionable authority to those who are gullible enough to believe him. I never felt that I had to believe this to be a Christian. It's about power and man's weakness.

The issue is not about PMcC's lifestyle but about transparency and openness. If people are being asked to give until it hurts they are entitled to know what is coming in and how it is being spent. In the context of WW to ask such questions is to question the Lord. This is simply not good enough.

Angels in duffel coats is only the tip of the iceburg. He also believes that Adam and Eve were real people who were created about 6000 years ago and that we did not evolve. He also believes in a virgin birth and in the ressurection of someone called Jesus, talking snakes and talking donkeys.

He is also associated with Elim Pentecostal Churches and has been on the god chanel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYoqoxN_nGI

BLACKINGA...i am very much in agreement with what you are saying. No one seems prepared to answer that question.

There are a number of similarities between the WW government structure and the Roman Catholic Papal office. However even the pope would not make the claim that his autocractic authority is based on part due to an alleged angelic visitation.

BLACKINGA..Do you know if the decision to appoint George McKim, to build the Romainian Orphanage and then destroy the Romainian orphanage were claimed by James McConnell to have been advised by the Angel?? He is reported to have said all of these things were inspired by the Holy Spirit but the nature of this inspiration is as of yet unspecified.

PrinceE - sorry I don't know but a quick about turn would sort it out anyway.

Princess - how dare you mock Benny Hinn! This is a man who bought himself a private jet so that he could move quickly around the world doing the Lord's work. Just wait until you make such a sacrifice before taking the hand out of him. (Sorry, that was unworthy.)

Oh my FSM princessnewsjunkie, that YouTube clip you posted. I thought my assessment of part of humanity (the nuttiest of believers) was at rock bottom already. You may have just made it sink even lower.:(

Princess very good exposure of the heritic Benny Hinn.

Why do you think the "hundereds" of people all fall down when Benny "hill" sorry I mean hinn whooooshhhh's them.
Could the sceince community tell us how this happens.

There is also a very good one on Peter Poppoff where he uses an ear piece feed with information from his wife.
He is then caught by a man who was scanning for RF signals so you should it expose him as well.

God is great he even uses Atheists to expose what is false.

Selah

Interesting sermon title and message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iMdN6_5lp4&feature=related

As a non-member of Whitewell I can't really answer this question, but having said this, I was present on two occasions over the years when Pastor Mc Connell brought the bank manager and the accounted to a public meeting to discuss the corporate plan ahead concerning finance.

Now from the posts I have read, there always seems to be a pattern coming through, most people don't really care what happens to Whitewell or for that matter any other Church, why? "because" they want to attack Christianity by using any means possible.

EVANGELICAL_EXILE...

NO ONE can give an honest answer to your earlier questions of

Does ww have a constitution?
Who are the 7 WW trustees/oversight?
Are the ww accounts externally audited?
The date of the last ww business meeting?
What was the evidence for a paedophile ring?
Why did the church not approach the relevant government channels with their concerns of a paedophile ring etc?

Because the WW leadership unlike EVERY other evangelical church does NOT think its IMPORTANT to tell its membership such information.

I wish some of the ww members could see how this means how little respect their church leadership has for them....

REVDOC/DOMJOLY etc I would be interested to hear your opinion also on my comments/questions on WW's teaching on British Israelism and psychiatry [ref comment 44]and the theological reasons for the unaccountable autocratic church government in WW!

Certainly there are other pastors in Whitewell who want to be assured that George McKim will not be invited back. They, at least, are sure that God doesnt want McKim to run Whitewell

The above is contained in Malichi O'Dohertys report in BT on Thursday 31 July 2009. Maybe this will answer the question of what happened to Pastor George... So many being told he didn't want to wait and that there was never a definite date given (4 October 2009) but yet we have the above statement. I think we are now beginning to get close to the real reason of Pastor George departure. So many friends who are still in ww keep telling me that the leadership want reconciliation and yet they want assurances that Pastor George will never be invited back. I think there are people who are comfortable and don't want the feathers taken out of their nests.

i was a member for over 23years. i may have missed a few meetings over the years but it must have been the two when the bank manager and accountant were present. this never happened in my 23years.

What this whole affair has done is highlight the cracks that have always been evident in WMT but, due to the way it was managed, were only noticed by those who had courage. From reading the many messages in the various blogs it shows that those who defend J McC. are behaving like ostriches and leemings rather than the sheep they are supposed to be. What has been said highlights McConnells strong-arm tactics, his lies, his massive ego, his spite, his financial impropriety, his lack of transparency and the dictitorial way he deals with his congregation and subordinate leaders amongst other things. Such behaviour one would expect from a third-world despot, rather than a first-world 'man of God'.
The Bible advises us, "...by their fruits ye shall know them".

There are a number of issue which require to be addressed which have already been sited, however, there are a number of others which tend to bother me. The church, when it was based on the Whitewell Road, was affiliated to the Church of Christ if I can remember properly. However, before it opened on the Shore Road it's affiliation changed to the Elim Pentecostal Church. These churches have their own particular doctrine, some of which is similar yet some contradictory. I remember at the time, before they changed affiliation, reading a document that explained the Whitewell Road Church's understanding of the Godhead. Then when they moved I looked up a reference to the Elim's understanding of the Godhead. Now I dont want it to appear that i am nit-picking but they were in conflict. I always wondered how a large group of people could one day believe one thing about the nature of the God they chose to worship, then the next day believe they must have been in error realising the nature of God was totally different and thus changed belief enmass. I could never understand that. Belief can be a funny old thing.
Having attended a few meetings and been an eye witness and spoken to friends who are members, the church claims to be responsible for the conversion of about 10 'lost souls' each week. That would mean that over the last 20 years that 10,000 individuals have been 'saved'. Ok, given that some members have died over the period and maybe others have moved away (although some have came from other churches), where are they all?

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post 67. concerning the meetings, both were "monday nights" both had to do with building projects and securing the finance from the bank infact when I think about it, even in all the gift days in the new and old churches the amounts lifted were always told to the congregation and what about the time a person give pastor Mc Connell a substantial amount of money, did he keep it NO, he told the CHURCH how much it was and gave it into the Church funds, of course no one wants to remember this, that Pastor Mc Connell tithe 100% of that very large sum.

LASTLY, I must know you "totallydismayed" as I first when to Whitewell in 1985.

Puretruth

So a grunt makes McConnell demon possessed you people are mad.
This whole blog is becoming a farce.
You go on about McConnell and McKim as if they are super Christians.

Christians arguing over who heard from God was it McKim or ws it McConnell, getting all up tight and getting ready to slay the one who was wrong.

Well what about all you people what is God saying to you?

Why can you not discern who is hearing from God?

And why did you not see this coming?

Has the body become that weak that we have to rely on super leaders to lead us instead of Christ, who has bewitched you?

STOP BLOGGING AND SORT IT OUT.

MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE AND THEY FOLLOW ME.

NEITHER GEORGE, JIM OR ANY OTHER MAN IS THE SOLOUTION TO YOUR PROBLEMS.
CHURCES AS YOU KNOW THEM ARE FINISHED, BUT THE CHURCH IS PEOPLE, NOT BUILDINGS, NOR MOVEMENTS, BUT THE BODY WILL LIVE ON.

ALL DENOMINATIONS HAVE GONE ASTRAY, AND IF YOU CANNOT DISCERN THAT YOU ARE WITTNESSING THE FALLING AWAY SPOKEN OF IN THE WORD THEN I FEAR FOR YOU ALL.

I WON'T POST HEAR AGAIN THIS WAS FOR A SEASON AND FOR ME THE SEASON HAS ENDED.
AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD.


SELAH

John, what you describe is not an annual business meeting for the members where he "goes through all the (financial) particulars".

I recall no detail of amounts being discussed in any forum with only a few exceptions.

(1) When the small piece of land facing the church came up for sale, Pastor McC stood upand told the congregation that he had made an offer of circa £70K. He was then told by the agent that an offer of £72K (I believe) had been made. He blustered that he wasn't going to be forced to pay more than he needed to and hinted that he felt that it was a phantom offer. He then came back to another meeting a few weeks later and informed us that he was now forced to pay £85K (again I believe) but boasted that the new vendor wasn't going to get the £500 solicitor's fee.

(2) He also told us that the bank was charging a higher interest rate than the church administrator believed. Although the rate was not hidden, this apparently was the bank's fault somehow and in no sense down to incompetence on the part of the administrator (his daughter).

What a man, eh!

I don't attend PCN but I just wonder if George took the helm at WW would he institute new systems. I also wonder if he would tolerate the waste of money (taken from many who can ill afford it) to sponsor comfortable lifestyles for hangers on. Perhaps this is George's problem?

Thanks. prob do then. i still dont rem any bank manager etc being at any meetings and only general info ever given out, eg what was lifted etc. other churches hand out reports of pastors wages and running costs. this never happened at ww and we were expected to take it as said what was told to us. we were also told we were supporting missionaries when we were not and churches, also now i believe the orpanage too which was not true.

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Ref 70

Just for the record....Puretruthseeker says "you will hear, if you listen carefully, the spirit which possesses J McC giving a little grunt of satisfaction.'

This statement beggers belief and demonstrates the depths to which the blogging has sunk.

what you say is true enough mynameisbillyboy1. did you also take your stand against wrong doing and leave ww then too?

What happened Pastor Lyons ? Another one who vanished overnight with not so much as a word.

Far too much in WW is centered around Jim Mcconnell s EGO .Why an orphanage in Romania ? Bob Gass his old friend started working with orphans in Romania in 1991. So WW had to have the biggest and BEST at a cost of MILLIONS. Bob Gass his old friend is still working with orphans and still in Romania .Why was he not asked if he could use it? Was it a fear of Bob Gass succeeding were WW failed.
https://www.bobgass.com/missions-orphanages.php

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ref post 80

Just for the record, puretruthseeker says, 'The involuntary grunting (of J McC)is but merely the symptom of a man who doesnt have full control over his faculties'

This one line must surely win the prize of the most stupid comment ever posted on the blogisphere.

Next, we'll have people reading things into sneezing, coughing, burping, stomach noises and blinking.

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I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry after reading post 82.

It pretty much sums up how silly, presumptious and scandelous the negative rants have become. Using McConnell's personal health struggles to run him down is, I'm sorry to say, lamentable.

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Posts 84, 85 and 86 have just plummeted to new depths. Anyone with a molecule of sense will discern how venomous these personal attacks on JMcC are. How very sad.

On reflection, I am deeply sorry for giving people like this further opportunity to spout their onobjective nonsense. As such, I will make no further contribution to this blog.

hooray! now that dom is ceasing to contribute maybe we can have some intellectual posts from people with perspective rather than someone who refuses to take off the rose tinted spectacles :)

Intellectual?????????? wwisrotten, you are a deluded ignoramus.

happychristian follower i wouldnt expect any less from a WWer-call other people names and sling mud to detract from the real issues at question-WW has taught you well!!!

As it happens, I am not a member of WW.

its funny how pretty much everyone on these blogs that is in support of the WW regime "isnt a member of WW"....

Just to further clarify, I had never had any connection with WW.

well in that case what would you know about anything being discussed?!

What has been 'discussed' over the past number of posts are PERSONAL remarks about JMcC - even suggesting there is something sinister about his coughing when he preaches (ref post 80, 82, 84, 85, 86)!!! Its just pathetic.

wwisrotten
I have never heard of Bill Wilson but I have a lot of time for those who are humble enough to admit their weaknesses and faults as it denote honesty and a desire to improve. As imperfect beings who have been commanded to be become more perfect like our Father in Heaven (Matt. 5:48) we can never do so if we first dont admit to our faults. Sadly, I must say that I have yet to find Christian church leaders who do. Maybe Im looking in the wrong places. Most of the people I know and many of them very decent folk have been put off religion because of the hypocrisy which tends to surround it. I mtend to agree. Sometimes, I wonder if Christianity has been so badly managed that the whole truth has ceased to reside within it bounds. There are too many questions it fails to answer for me and although I have always believed in a benovelent God as creator and Jesus as a Redeemer I have come to the conclusion that there must be more to salvation than asking Jesus to come into my heart and attending a church service a few times a week to hear the same message that I must be saved. I would rather put my faith in John 14:26 and 2John 2:27 and go it alone.
Im not even into blogging its just that a friend informed me of the controversy and as i had a particularly bad experience with McConnell years ago, I was just having a look and felt compelled to speak.
All this will do will further reinforce what many good people outside the Christian way of life and myself already felt. However, maybe its not such a bad thing. Who knows?

Could I please strongly appeal to those concerned about the practices/structure/finances/beliefs of WW not devalue the discussion by remarking on James McConnell's or anyone else's motor ticks, background or physical appearance. This has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever!

This merely serves to undermmine the genuine and legitimate concerns held by many in the Northern Ireland evangelical community of this church

DOMJOLY as outlined above i agree with your post 87.

HOWEVER, you CANNOT get away from the genuine real questions about WW which is at the heart of this discussion.

So I refer you to the questions in posts 42 and 44.

PLEASE HAVE THE COURAGE AND DECENCY TO ANSWER

A posting on malachiodocherty's blog

D.A. Says:
August 2, 2009 at 9:19 pm | Reply
The men then left Romania by crossing a land border to evade any danger that the police would detain them at the airport and ask them why they had acted so strangely.

*If* the organisation which ran the childrens home was legally registered as a Romanian foundation (which it should have been), they were actually acting illegally by destroying the building. The Romanian law on foundations states that if the foundation has to cease operation, all remaining assets must be handed to the courts, which will decide how to dispense with them.

Of course, this all hinges on whether or not the organisation was properly registered in Romania (which it should have been, given that it was working with children).

John McCreadys explanation of what happened is perfectly sound. McConnells sounds like hes away with the fairies (allegedly).

SO...MY QUESTION IS WILL JAMES MCCONNELL NOW BE PROSECUTED BY THE ROMAINIAN GOVERNMENT FOR

[1] DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER?
[2] ILLEGAL DESTRUCTION OF A REGISTERED ORPHANAGE?

princeEphraim.
The grunt forms only part of my post and if you are unhappy with it you can ignore me.
Nevertheless, I think what has happened highlights the flaws inherent in organised Christianity and while the rest of the 'community' will never get a full understanding of all this no matter how much you bleat, I feel that its as good a time as any to flag up some of the flaws.
Oh, and bye the way, I never mentioned anything about Mcconnell's "motor ticks, background or personal appearance". You did.
Im glad this is a 'free' country.

As someone who is not party to any side in this situation, I'm convinced that this blog is being used by some (not all) as way of just getting at JMcC because of their own selfish reasons - hence the personal attacks on him. I really think this is out of order. But for those with genuine questions, surely the best way to get answers is to make a telephone call to the church and ask to meet with someone over coffee?