Tabernacle turmoil

Could anybody record this for a listener in America whom they won't stream the iPlayer to? (Or, maybe this segment will be a part of the Everyday Ethics podcast in which case I don't need to worry?)

As some one who has frequented the Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle on and off for approximately 23years, I look forward to what will transpire from the programme tomorrow if anything.

I believe that enough valid and reasonable questions have been produced by commenters through the Mega church blog with over 600 comments being made.

There seems to be an oppressive position taken towards those who make justifiable and intelligent enquiry, why should the leadership feel threatened by honest questions seeking honest answers.

There are question marks about the theology of the WWMT that require answers and there are also obscure areas surrounding the governance of the WWMT that necessitate illumination.

I have a number of tapes from WW and one of them is about British Israelism, but to the undiscerning it probably would be accepted as truth, but is nothing more than unadulterated fiction invented by man and is in the same league as the Da Vinci code.

I have been speaking to members of WW during the week and it looks like the ranks have been closed as they have not been prepared to talk about the situation at WW, all they were prepared to do was to sing the praises of Pastor McConnell and George McKim, they were singing of the same hymn sheet.

As some one who has contributed somewhere in the region of £6000 over the past five years, which was gift aided, and when taken as a percentage of my wages it is quiet a lot of money because I work in a traditionally low paid job. I believe that I have a legitimate right to know how my money is spent. Why all cloak-and-dagger.

If the Holy Spirit is present in WW there will be light.

Hippy

That's a substantial amount of money indeed but would you not have been better to try and find out as much as you could about where money went before you gave it?

I'm not trying to be awkward or anything and I know that in the church there's a general view that the church will 'do the right thing' with money collected but surely we should be checking these things out as best we can as we go along.

I mean, for example, if I thought my church was going to blow a lot of dosh on a new building with comfy seats and a surround sound system and all, I'd redirect it to TEAR Fund.

Technically, should a "Megachurch" not have ~1 million members? It would seem that Whitewell is really only a 3.3 kilochurch, no?

Ach, Helio, one million? The church is much bigger than that... stars in the sky, sand on the seashore...

Hello Peter,

In the meantime I have now redirected my tithe to a ministry that shows social responsibility, though WW still gets a small offering which is not gift aided.

I have given my tithe in faith to God and not WW, but if the tithe has been used in an irresponsible way it is those that have showed the bad stewardship that will have to answer for their actions.Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

I believe that their should always an atmosphere of transparency and openness in the House of God anything else is a dishonour to his precious name, because God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

I believe it is good stewardship to know how your money is spent and it is biblically unethical to withhold such information from those that tithe their hard earned cash.

I believe that if the church receives money that they should know where it is coming from, not once has a pastor from WW ever darkened my door, even though I was incapacitated through illness for nearly a year and was absent from my employment on sick leave during that time. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.

Where has Marcus Aurelius been through this Mega blog.

Hippy, the route to finding where your money went should be relatively simple. You say it was gift aided which indicates that it has gone to a registered Charity. If you go the Charity Commission website type in the Charity No. and you will be able to view the accounts online.

Is tithing money scriptural ?
https://bible-truths.com/tithing.html

Christian Hippy, you don't have a legitimate right to know 'how my money was spent' because if you understood what a 'tithe' is - then you'd realise its not YOUR money anyway. Your £6000 does not buy you shares in the church.

Domjoly

You are correct "it is not your money" however if you are a member of a church or any organisation it is reasonable that there is an anual audited and published account.

IN WW THE GENERAL ATTITUDE IS THAT IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND YOU MAY BE TOLD TO GET OUT AS SOME HAVE

If Gift aid is involved there has to be some form of accountand claim per person participating in the gift aid. When as member of WW and participating in gift aid I had to sign for my contributions periodically.
Oh for the day when Margaret Ritchie pulls the charities here into line hopefully with the charity commission as operating within England and Wales. Then that element of giving will be available for all to see.

I have NO problems with publishing accounts. This will happen sooner or later anyway.

My problem is with the attitude of people like ChristianHippy - that if 'my money' isn't spent as I'd like it, then I will send 'my money' elsewhere. So that's exactly what he/she has done - now giving a 'small offering' to Whitewell and the tithe to an organisation that shows 'social responsibility' - clearly implying that whitewell doesn't do the same. In other words, the real issue is that because they feel they're not getting any bang for their buck out of WW - they're not giving to it anymore.

My point is...'tithing' is not about buying influence and visitation rights - but giving to God into His storehouse which in the New Testament context is the local church. I'm not a menber of WW. Nor am I siding with any particular group. I just detest the way people treat the Church as a social club. Tough times like this call for mature Christian attitudes.

Oh...and when a Christian tithes, does it make them poorer? Not according to Malachi.

The report from Sunday Sequence on the Whitewell split is now available on www.malachiodoherty.com

domjoly,

i think that under the circumstances clarity needs to be shown in a situation were a church organisation can ask for donations to certain church programs for approx 2 years, which i put money into that now seems was not actually going to the programme i believed i was supporting. Showing church accounts will not change this situation?

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To Domjoly,

I understand the point you are trying to make agaisnt The Christian Hippy, that the money is God's to begin with, not theirs, but I think that it's important to remember that whilst the money you give is given to God and, ultiamtely, was his to begin with, Christians should still excercise discernment about exactly how this money is used, and that is not just the job of the churches and organisations receiving the money, but also the responsibility of individual Christians to make sure that they are being wise in their giving and not squandering the gifts God has given them to use. If Whitewell is not using the money they are being given wisely, then it is not only sensible, but responsible for a Christian to choose to give that money another way. They are still giving, afterall, not keeping it for their own use.

I have often heard pastor McConnell preach about tithing, and wondered how do the pastors tithe. Do they take their wages, from the members tithing money, less 10%? Or do they take their wages, from the members tithing money, then after they have paid tax and insurance, they then give 10% back to the church?

if its possible, can i claim my tithe back even though it was voluntary believing it was being used for what i was told it was being used for?????? 22+ years tithing is a lot of money for someone in a manual labouring job.

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Anybody wondering who all the rich people in NEWTOWNABBEY are? I refer to the new church set up in the said district. We were informed that on their 1st meeting in a hotel no less they managed to raise £11000 via the 300 people who attended, thats £366 per person and if this = 10% of their weekly salary then they would appear to be doing better than a lot of our MPs!
Which takes me very nicely on to the next topic raised to-day I was hoping that you would have mentioned the marvelous christian gesture that Tony Blair charged all of us tax payers for ie having his roof repaired just before retiring as PM, nice one Tony!

How long before people will demand public answers to all these questions in WW? The worm has turned ...

Regarding post 24, if that is true, then at least the members know how much was collected. Now my next question, how much was collected at the Whitewell, last Sunday?

Well, they are downloading the Sunday Sequence report from my blog by the hundred, and that has never happened before.

it's at www.malachiodoherty.com

Dear Malachi, your famous!.

Christian Hippy's perfectly legitimate concerns raise serious questions about what our 'Protestant' (general term) churches have become and if this WW turmoil and the earlier and ongoing PMS problems don't cause us to take a step back and think about who we are, what we are doing and where we are going then, to be frank, there will only be worse to come.

A number of things strike me and they are related to church in general not just money.

On this thread, as in the case of the PMS, we are speaking of church as if it were something other than us. Statements like, we need the church to help us or we need the church to take responsibility, these, and the WW disputes about leaders and personalities, demonstrate that we are in the process of forgetting that we are all the church. There is no church without us, all of us. It (the church) is not 'leadership', it is not an 'institution', it is not a 'registered charity', a movement, a building, a programme of events or anything else, it is people, people who identify themselves with Jesus. The church is not a 'worship leader', a bishop, a moderator, a priest, a missionary or something quaintly called 'full time service'. The church is people. We exist for the benefit of those who are not our members (ref. City Church last week, I am not a member of City Church BTW). We exist for the benefit of the community ("seek the peace and prosperity of the city..."). We exist for the benefit of one another. We exist to be gracious and kind and forgiving. We exist to act with justice and mercy. We exist to worship God. And when we worship, we worship with cups of cold water as much as with our music and songs, maybe more so. We worship when we do a fair days work without shirking or putting in false expenses claims. We worship when we drink coffee, change nappies and act with generosity towards our enemies. We worship when we welcome strangers and immigrants.

But it seems we have become something else. We are drowning in a sub culture of our own making and we have communicated the idea to others that if they are to join us then they must first become like us, we have communicated the idea that participation in our subculture is Christianity. We have fallen into the trap, we of all people, of thinking that the medium is the message.

And when the trappings are removed, what is left? When the leader steps down, or our money disappears, what then, is the church gone too? Worse still, we have associated God with our paraphernalia and the premise of our Christianity is, "you've got to go to church".

The church is in trouble, and the publishing of a few accounts in WW, however important, or the rescue of the PMS, however important, isn't, I fear, going to be enough to sort us out.

Personally I understand more and more why people like some of the atheists on here don't want to know.

"Well, they are downloading the Sunday Sequence report from my blog by the hundred, and that has never happened before."

Malachi,

If that happened in our evangelical churches, we'd call it a revival!

:-)

What? just downloading Sunday Sequence.

No. It was a reference to the numbers game, some evangelicals are obsessed with it.

That and it was a joke, or an attempt at one, obviously I failed miserably.

As a member of ww I would like to say there is no perfect church and the problems of the moment are just that..of the moment,
Pastor McConnell and Pastor McKim are both born again, Spirit filled men of God.I believe that when they both forget their flesh and get on with the work God gave them to do and not being influenced by all and sundry but be submitted to THE HOLY SPIRIT alone , then we can all get back to plan A and learn much from this time. we say to the enemy "enough is enough we are going to walk in love with each other...in honour preferring one another and esteeming each other more highly than ourselves"

Perhaps, Peter, perhaps, but your post before that was insightful and to the point (which is always better than inciteful and pointed, like so many comments on this blog seem to be - and so often the Christian ones, which leads on to what I'm going to say). The Church, as a visible organisation, bound to its buildings and charity numbers, is always letting itself down, but then, it always has been, from the more famous actions of Churches throughout the middle ages to more modern scams and overreactions. The Church is always shooting itself in the foot.
But, as the Church of Christ it is the successor to the nation of Israel, the people of God, and his royal priesthood. Lofty titles indeed, and yet, of course, the Bible tells the tale of how they spent their time shooting themselves in the foot. People are people, and Jewish people and Christian people are people too. We're all fallible, we're all sinners and we all make mistakes, often huge ones. The Church makes itself look corrupt, or stupid, or, even on ocassion, evil, and we wonder how God can be glorified, but hypocrisy, whilst never a good thing, is an inevitable sign of a fallen race trying to follow a heavenly code and is only to be expected. I take comfot in the fact that, whilst Israel was as bad, if not worse, in the Bible as the Church has been these past 2000 years in terms of 'PR' and doing the right thing, God still followed through on all his plans. God suffered, Christ died, but God's blessings still flow and his Will carries on.
The Church is a mess, but it still grows and God's will will be done.

And I apologise for the equally messy formatting there. Stupid Preview misled me.

Re post 24 motecleaner

Please check your maths!!!

I make £11000 divided by 300 £36.60

A number of people have contacted Sunday Sequence with their concerns about the recent controversy at Whitewell Metropolitan. Some have expressed a wish to make their concerns more public. If you would like to speak to the programme about your concerns, you can email william.crawley@bbc.co.uk

motecleaner whoever told you that the peopls church newtownabbey lifted 11000 of an offering at their first service is talking rubbish i attend peoples church newtownabbey and i know for a fact that the offering was no where near 11000 but i will say the place we are in is now too small the lord is being exalted lifes are being changed and its all by the grace of god amy the lord bless you and if you dont know him i pray you will one day

motecleaner please excuse my spelling i meant to say may the lord bless you god bless

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To quicktruthteller, of course the offering was 11000 for the 1st Sunday of PCN I was there on the monday night prayer meeting when it was announced.

Please help me.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear responses to the questions below:

Would anyone here like to tell of how you became a Christian at WW?
Has anyone here ever been blessed through the ministry of WW?
Has anyone here ever been healed at WW?
Does anyone here agree that McConnell and McKim are both
actually good guys who love God and the people they lead?
Does anyone here think that there is hope that something good can come out of all this?

As I say, I'd be genuinely interested to know...

Dom Joly and john the Baptist in dialogue.
This blog has now met the necessary and sufficient conditions for being surreal.

1st, It does not matter, where you become a BORN-AGAIN person In CHRIST, just as long "that" you do it.

2nd, YES, I was Married there.

3rd, In Whitewell, there would be people who DON'T accept Healing or even are Pentecostalists "BUT" on the other hand, people have been "too" their own knowledge been healed.

4th, Both pastors are from my own experience are very kind people, who have a clear dedication for God's people.

5th, Yes, if both men meet alone without others interfering.

To gveale - lol
To johntheebap - thank-you.

To gveale, sorry for leaving you out my FRIEND, go to youtube 169000.

John the Bap
Is the friend in caps significant? I can't get YouTube on the C2K system. Help, I'm confused!
I don't think I know any Baptists called John. At least not any who would know about You Tube.

GV

Dear FRIEND, you must be either in a School or somewhere else to use such a system.

Yes the FRIEND in caps is significant, as I was being kind to you.

I was given the nickname by the Homeless people I used to work with for two reasons... 1, I used to cut their hairs, 2, I used to have a Bible Class as well.

Lastly, I hope this does not turn into our blog instead of William Crawley's, that's the reason why I referred you to youtube or type in j.dynes on google search with whisper JESUS, THANK YOU!.

debraards i was at georges church yesterday and george said what the offering was last sunday but even if it was 11000 or the amount i was told that has nothing to do with anyone on here i think we both know most of the people on here have never met or even spoke to george or the bishop or even set foot in whitewell

Hi Folks,
I'm not too sure which blog to be on but i have some sincere questions for Pastor Mckim & those of you who have went witn him.
Leaving aside the issues of dates,Timing of sucession,whos to blame,
contracts, money etc etc on the human level, I would like to know;
1/Is pastor G still convinced that the Holy Spirit has called him to be the sucessor at WW? If so then is PCN A 'time out' till he returns to WW?
2/Did he agree when Pastor Mc announced that the Holy Spirit was responsible for the infamous "October date" ie did the Spirit tell him(for want of a better word) the same thing?
3/If the Spirit has called him to WW, why has he left? did the Spirit tell him to leave and start another church? Is God not bigger than all the difficulties he states that he was having,no matter how bad they were? "if God be for us who can be against us" Rom 8:32
4/If it is Gods will for him to start another church, then was the original call to come to WW wrong,or did he get it wrong,did Pastor Mc get it wrong in the first place to approach him?
5/Has Pastor G made any statements regarding the role of the Holy Soirit in all this??
Would really like to know!

Iv'e been connected with Whitewell from the early 80s, but didn't come on this blog to kiss & tell, but to see what William Crawley was saying and have ended up just replying to posts 42&47, and have not taken any so-called sides, as I need to stay on the Lord's side.

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red maybe you should not be asking George these questions maybe you should ask pastor mcconnell himself. If The Holy Spirit did tell pastor mcconnell that Pastor Mckim was to take over in October and confirmed this to Pastor Mckim then pastor mcconnell changes his mind yes his mind then you should ask pastor mcconnell why he did change his mind wrong person to be asking when it is pastor mcconnell that you should be asking your questions to as according to you The Spirit told both that this was the date then the dramatic change from pastor mcconnell so ask pastor mcconnell not pastor mckim

Er, John the Bap

Did I cause offence or something? You can see the funny side of John the Baptist talking to Dom Joly, right? Or were you being kind because I seemed confused. Now I'm even more confused!

Yeah, I'm an RE teacher. This blog is why God gave us free periods.
What was on YouTube?

Dear FRIEND & RE teacher, when you get home from your hard days work, you can go on your personal pc and check out my youtube web-site... youtube 169000, seeing your so religious.

ps... God is not the author of confusion.

An interesting article entitled "The Coming Evangelical Collapse" which is relevant to this crisis.

https://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

A quick summary of the article by Michael Spencer -

THE MAIN CONTENTION We are on the vergewithin 10 yearsof a major collapse of evangelical Christianity.

ARGUMENTS
1) "Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. Being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith."
2) "We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it."
3) "There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile."
4) "Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself."
5) "The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many."
6) "The money will dry up."

I'd like to see some data to back up claim 3, and the article seems to be focused on the literate West. It is difficult to quibble with the rest of the analysis.

WHAT WILL BE LEFT OF EVANGELICALISM?

A) "The pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. Emphasis will shift from doctrine to relevance, motivation, and personal success."
B) "Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Both communions have made efforts to "win over" Evangelicals, with some success."
[[It is not unusual to find Priests in these communions who believe the Gospel as Evangelicals understand it, and have found ways to reconcile this with the Sacraments and Magisterial Authority. Bernard, who blogs here, would meet this definition (although to my knowledge isn't a Priest).]]
C) "The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape."[[Given that Northern Ireland runs at a 10 year time lag behind the US, it's due an outburst of activity here.]]
D) "Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear."
E) "Some Evangelicals will work to create their own countercultures, rather than try to change the culture at large."
F) "Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion?"

These are Spencer's arguments, not mine, before I'm accused of being an evil spirit of discouragement. However, I certainly see (E) as a possibility. And I think this is a warning long overdue...

GV

John

LOL...stop doing the devil's work then! I don't have YouTube at home. Should I google that name?

GV

(-;

Hi secondmcc,
I'm not disputing Pastor Mc has questions to answer,but dont try and evade the issue!! You are actually making the same type of statements that people have criticized WW about. Is Pastor G above being asked how the Holy Spirit has led him in all of this? Does Pastor Mc changing his mind concerning dates superseed the call of God in Pastor G's life? Do wordings on contracts really change God's will? Do you believe Pastor G is still the man for WW, AS A PCN person told me at the weekend? If not then why did he come in the first place, did he make a mistake? Did God not forsee all of this?
Another PCN brother told me that the reason that Pastor G didn't go back to scotland was that he & his wife still believed God has called them to the area to minister, fair enough, but being called to an area and being called to be the leader at WW are to different things, one is specific!

post 50 question 1 - re GMcK to take over from PMcC - the spirit is in the people not the building.... just becasue GMcK has left WW doesn't mean he still can't take over from PMcC... no one said he'd take over in the WW building....

Actually, John, your comment about the two pastors was interesting, and quite plausible.
When authority is invested in individuals rather than offices, power struggles can materialise around them. I've been trying to point out (to no avail) that Mr McConnell most likely has very little room for maneuver.
I'm also bewildered by the accusations aimed at both pastors. They sound so plausible - but I have yet to see any evidence beyond personal anecdotes that contradict each other.

GV

hi lifeall4god,
Sori but your to understand the logic of your last post, are you saying that Pcn are now the true work that the Lord started 53 yrs ago?

revdocholiday, I said no such thing. I merely pointed out that Gods calling works through people, not bricks.

"When I used to do the Devil's work" there was no room for maneuver from me, not even calling certain types of people FRIEND.

I think your right, youtube IS on the net, why are you on HERE, seeing it is so WORLDLY, SHAME,SHAME ON YOU.

Lifeall4god, neither did I, but the implication of your post is that Pastor Mck starting another church/work is fulfilling God's call to be Pastor MC sucessor! Has Pastor G actually said this? Does he believe that this is the will of God now? that the mantle has now been passed?
Please understand I'm not attacking Pastor G, just trying to get a handle on his thinking behind all this?

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revdocholiday, in my opinion my post doesn't imply that GMcK is fulfilling Gods work to be PMcC's successor, but everything is down to opinion. I don't know what GMcK feels, similarly I don't know what PMcC thinks of the situ. I'm not making any assumptions or taking sides as I don't know everything from both sides of the fence. I'm not going to worry too much about it anyway. Whatever God's plan is will come to fruition, and maybe GmcK had to take an outward step from WW in a leap of faith to make him understand something that is unknown at present. All I can say is that both GMcK & PMcC are deeply hurt over this whole mess and rather than everyone attacking them, and the people who have either stayed at WW or went to PCN, we should be coming together to work for the Lord instead of tearing each other to shreads, we're only doing the devils work for him. I have been at WW for nearly 20 years and feel loyalty to the church because of that, but if I felt I had to leave and follow God through GMcKs ministry then I would. I dont think either party is blameless in what had happened. I have spoken to GMcK & to one of the other pastors at WW and things that seem innocent to both parties could be taken wrongly by the other, so I don't think we'll ever have a clearcut one being right & one being wrong. These little trials are sent to test us, but this is only a little bit, the final outcome for God is what is important.

Okay, you are deliberately trying to confuse me now, aren't you?

post 69 was aimed at John the Baptist. Either English isn't his first language, or he's missing a few sandwhiches from his picnic.

Sam, yeah, a very interesting article. The question is, how do we respond. I listened to Malachi's report, but haven't read his article yet.

GV

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Sam
Folk on Malachi's broadcast talked about the succession in terms of Elijah and Elisha. Is that how people at WW view the succession - as an event of that kind? That God would directly intervene and appoint a successor directly?
Or have I misunderstood?

GV

Yes that would be accurate GV. Many ww members feel that James McConnell is "anointed" and has a special Holy Spirit gifting for the ministry especially as an evangelist. This came from an angel visitation reported by James McConnell as young boy.

Many hoped this would pass to his successor, who many feels should be George McKim. A la elijah to elisha as you have said.

I see that the "BELFAST TElEGRAPH" has picked up on the Sunday Sequence story of the Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle. Read it @ https://tinyurl.com/mkyjcg

lifeall4god
let me repeat that I'm not atacking anyone or taking sides, as you can see by reading my past posts on both blogs. As i have already said I am not asking these questions to apportion blame! Pastor G, by giving 22yrs service in Falkirk, has shown that he's a man who stands by his call, that he is a man who lives for his convictions! So I dont understand why he's left to start another work?
Let me put it this way,the Lord has led me to WW, The lord then leads Pastor G to be the next leader, that means that God, in His sovereignity has purposed that George Mckim be responsible to shepherd me spiritually! To encourage me,teach me,guide me,maybe at times rebuke me etc in other words to be MY Pastor! So if all that is true yhen why is he not there fulfilling his God ordained purpose? How are my spiritual needs being met by him when he's not even there?
As you have said,the people are the work & not the building, but as 70-80% of the people,who Pastor G was called to minister to, are still in the WW building,then I believe it is perfectly legitimate to ask how and why he believes that the Lord has now led him elsewhere?

CONCERNING POST...56, "as spongebob would say"... Barnacles.

1. When someone becomes a BORN-AGAIN person, the last thing on their minds is... culture "but" CHRIST, or politics "but" PRAYER or conservatism "just" CONVERSION.

2. Orthodoxy, what a joke, more people are leaving it, than joining it, WHY? to become Evangelical's.

3. Money, to say that money will dry up, to "Evangelical Churches" Is just SILLY.

4. Success, of course people who turn to the so-called term "Evangelical Christian" will improve their lifestyle, if its for a short time or a long period of time, this is a fact, Spiritually & Educationally plus Materially.

5. Fundamentalist, the reason why so many people turn to Fundamentalism is quite "OBVIOUS", the whole world knows that so-called Orthodoxy from whatever quarter has let down the UNTOLD MILLIONS of people since their religion began and this is also one off the main reasons why CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM will always excist.

Lastly, at least the people of WHITEWELL CHURCH can disagree and have a free choice where to worship and with whom "but" history paints a different picture of what so-called Orthodoxy does with those who spilt from it, which in turn gives Christianity a very BAD name.

revdocholiday,
let me repeat that my previous posts were 'in my opinion' and I didn't accuse you of anything. I was just writing what I was thinking. If you took something personal from it then I apologise - that was not my intention.
However, I have found on both of these blogs that the majority of comments on them are useless, and are made by people (some of which by people who've never set foot over the door) trying to stir it up some more.
I don't know if you have ever been/or go to WW, but I would say that if you are a member/regular attender, since you have legitimate concerns over the running of it, that you speak to the pastors there, as I have done. (This isn't meant to sound badly, its just advice... If I was wanting to understand what has gone on & had questions, then I'd ask. Thats all I'm suggesting you do.)
As to GMcK leaving - only GMcK/PMcC can answer that.. But, given past history, GMcK may be the most truthful out of the two.
The reality is that the whole truth won't ever come out.
WW has acknowledged that mistakes have been made and that they need to learn from them, and move on...whether that happens while PMcC is there though is another matter.
Maybe its time we all left them to get on with it??

Hi ReubenSmith,

"How did someone manage to get the moderators to take my questions off air?
There was no statements only genuine serious questions! What is going here? Has the moderator been infiltrated??"

Unfortunately, the moderators will remove most posts that people complain about, even id there is little or nothing wrong with them. We've seen that often enough before the WWers showed up on this blog. Someone couldn't find a response to points that were made, thus hit the complaint button. The complain option is often abused just to get inconvenient (often the interesting ones, like your list of questions) posts removed.

Which is very annoying.

life4god
no friend i was not offended by anything you've posted and yes im a long time member of WW. I have indeed spoke to several of the WW pastors concerning the earthly side of things,ie dates, contracts etc etc, and i agree that alot of the comments posted here are irrelevant. But I was just wanting to know how Pastor G sees things in a spiritual sense. Does he now believe that the Lord has leed him to start another work! Surely even those of you who have went with Pastor G, regardless of how annoyed & hurt you feel at what has taken place,would need some assurance that PCN is where the Lord has led all of you,that indeed the whole thing is by God leading Pastor G and not just a kneejerk reaction! Was there great prayer made as to starting PCN? How did the Lord confirm this to Pastor G? What then of the original call to WW? Do you see what I'm driving at life4god? many good friends of mine are now at PCN & to be honest i'm concerned for them! No reflection on Pastor G meant by last statement!

post 70... Dear lazy Teacher, no wonder I am poorly educated, it was so-called teacher's like you "that" put me off learning at School.

Why don't you stop wasting the School's time and get on with "real teaching" and please make sure that the Children under your care don't end up poorly educated like me.

Christian Hippy ... that Belfast Telegraph story added not a single new fact to what's already been claimed on the blog and on the programme. It reads like a summary of Will's main post. Great work, Telegraph!

I don't like to mention names, pseudonyms don't count for much anyway, but I can't escape the thought that this blog has just gone and gotten rather impolite.


Anyway

John thee Bap

I appreciate your post 76 in response to Graham, but what I'd really like to read is a point by point 1-6 and A-F rebuttal of the case he presents.

Graham thinks (E) is a possibility and doesn't want to be a discouragement, he's being kind, from my point of view if we keep going the way we are going, we're stuffed (obviously not eternally), but nobody's listening; singing lots perhaps, but not listening.

Seeing my previous post didn't make it. here i go again. I fail to understand why so many professing Christians are harping on and on about the problems in the metropolitan.There are wounded people here. And the Christian church seems to be the only army that buries its wounded. The only thing being damaged here is the cause of Christ. i can just see the devil and the world at large having a good laugh at Christians castigating each other. For goodness sake find something else to talk about. Stop criticising and start praising the Lord who died for us. Isn't Jesus just wonderful.

belovedanddelivered

i am curious to know how wanting answers to questions becomes criticising. in my opinion this is a storm in a teacup as many things in the past have been covered up which people should have been leaving over, i myself decided to leave and that was after much prayer and God's direction. At the end of the day, this split is over personalities and God see's all. Things can be covered up on earth but one day everything will be revealed and i am only concerned with my reaction to things that were going on at WW but some people still want to cover it up and pretend all is well. it is very curious that reubensmiths questions keep getting deleted. they were ligitimate questions that should be answered.

"it is very curious that reubensmiths questions keep getting deleted. they were ligitimate questions that should be answered."

Well RAmen to that. Earlier on somebody said something to ReubenSmith like 'you are nosy, you ask a lot of questions, mind your own business, are you even a member of our church, just bugger off'. If I had to take a guess (and would only be guess), some WhiteWeller is on a rather nasty vendetta.

revdocholiday i noticed you mentioned a few of your friends are now attending the pcn and you are concerned for them i have known pastor g all my life and i csn assure you george is a very sincere man of god who will not only be a pastor to your friends but also a friend but if your really concerned why not come to one of georges services and c for yourself he is in the hilton hotel in templepatrick on sunday because corrs corner is too small now im not asking you to leave whitewell just to come along and c for yourself what the lord is doing in the pcn the worship and praise is amazing and the lord is being glorified and also people are being saved also it was the lord that brought george and his family back from scotland not pastor mcconnell

(Matthew 5:23-24)Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

How can these men be offering prayer and worship unto God as some of these blogs are stating when scripture (above) clearly teaches that if you have anything against your brother to leave your gift and be reconciled, maybe some dont have a good memory when they bow their heads. Hence my blogger name, totallydismayed maybe it should be totally disillusioned. Christians should be living according to Gods word. Is neither one big enough to go to the other. Pastor McConnell was praying for reconciliation on Sunday but the scripture says go to your brother. No comment from Pastor McKim in belfast telegraph as reported, at least we have heard from Pastor McConnell.

hi quicktruthteller
thanx for invite,your'e not the first to invite me! maybe sometime but not at the minute!
When I say that i'm concerned for my friends it is not because of what will take place in PCN or the sincerity of Pastor G,It's the fact that PCN exists in the first place that worries me! If you read my last several posts on this blog you will see my reasons!

POST 82... To BROTHER Peter,

what will be left of Evangelicalism = EVERYTHING.

A, From the early 1600s there has always been different strands of Evangelical Churches "BUT" to say its over is misleading.

B, To say that so-called Orthodoxy believes in the Gospel of Grace ALONE is FALSE, why? because every Orthodox priest does believe in grace + works unto salvation "not" GRACE ALONE.

C, The Pentecostal Church has been in Ireland from 1915 & been very successful, so to say that Evangelicals are waiting to die within the next 10 years is not correct.

D, Just not the case, look at South America.

E, Again, what's new, look at the good old USA.

F, There has always been clear HERESY or RELATIVISM and CONFUSION right from the very start off so-called Pentecostalism.

These are very quick responses from ME, to someone else's thesis and not plagiarized by the LAZY TEACHER...GV.

Lastly... The EVANGELICAL CHURCH will always go on, even if there's splits in it.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

85. At 7:58pm on 22 Jun 2009, PeterKlaver wrote:

Well RAmen to that. Earlier on somebody said something to ReubenSmith like 'you are nosy, you ask a lot of questions, mind your own business, are you even a member of our church, just bugger off'. If I had to take a guess (and would only be guess), some WhiteWeller is on a rather nasty vendetta.

I dont think it is a nastsy vendetta at all, the whole thing is just rather boring now. Thought I would leave you all with this, Ephesians 5 1/2 - Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; AND WALK IN LOVE, AS CHRIST ALSO HATH LOVED US, I think it's time to end this, and start praying. Thanks

ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING

ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING

ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING Boring

ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING BLAH BLAH BLAH

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

RS, Do you go to Whitwell?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Ah, first ReubenSmith's post 90 is pulled. Then as I'm reading this thread, truthanator is posting in it and a few seconds later ReubenSmith's post 91 (with the very valid list of questions) is pulled. And Truthanator blasts ReubenSmith for a supposedly boring comment in post 91. Glad to know that no one is on a vendetta then.

The level that some of the WW'ers are on, is so dreadful.