Tuesday 16 March 2010

'Tonight, Jackie Long reports on the largely taboo subject of children sexually abusing children. Her report includes a powerful interview with a mother who discovered that her seven-year-old daughter was abusing other children, including her brother, having been abused herself.'

I hope Jackie Long clearly differentiates between play and abuse. It's this difficulty of discriminating between classes of behaviour which, like so many issues about behaviour, makes this subject such a taboo. Whilst most parents would not want to encourage either class of behaviour, that is different from classing sexual experimentation/play as abuse. The law is very careful on this matter, i.e on prosecution of underage sexual behaviour. The age difference between parties is one factor, as is assault. This is a difficult matter technically, and it's one which many reporters handle very badly in my view (cf. the recent hounding of a defrocked Catholic priest, and the recent piece on rape and the police). What much of this comes down to is evidence, and verbal reports are not all there is to that. Some issues are inherently problematic and that has to be accepted for what it is.

Would a 7 year old child really know she had been sexually abusing other children? The poor girl had been subjected to abuse, and more than likely thought it was normal. Perhaps teaching children about the facts of life at 5 isn't such a bad idea at all. At least then, they will be able to speak out against it if they ever fall victim to it.

As for the US, every time they say they will enforce sanctions against a nuclear Iran, they fail to do so. Now that is an insult.

Certainly look forward to the argument about Shakespeare's lost work!

US envoy George Mitchell postpones Israel visit

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8569548.stm

which makes our FO look most supine and spineless over the passports given over a similar 'outrage' [milliband quote] Mrs T expelled Mossad for 10 years, other countries expelled the ambassador, cut visits, placed visa restrictions etc.

what has Milliband done to stand up for UK interests? Israel might be his friend and ally but from their acts they are not the uk's or anyone else's it seems with repeated humiliations for usa, turkey, australia, new zealand, uk etc.

the evidence is its a rogue duplicitous deceiving state highjacked by violent settler extremists that sabotages any move for Palestinian statehood ?

the israeli political class cannot deliver or control the settlers? Any who try get attacked.

given millibands love of the 'Dog State' analogy [in the iraq inquiry] should not israel be among his list of nations to 'brought to heel'?

Good News for Barrie...

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8564662.stm

Although I think b99 said they smashed into land, and didn't work. Hhhmmm I'm quite keen on wave power, very realiable compared to wind.

Miliband and China: Look back to the post about how many people China must have with an IQ of 120 and above (~178,000,000 i.e about 16% of their population). Now, not all of those are of working age of course, but even if you take 40% of that population (say 20 year olds to 60 year olds) and half it to select just the males (just the way it goes for a number of reasons but remember its just 2x the number of males at that level), that's still (4 x 17.8 million)/2) which puts a country like Britain with lower mean ability (say 100) in teh first place, and a much smaller population, to shame. In brief China has lots of able people to run their state rail roads, airlines etc.

Point two, for action or behaviour, try using the word labour.

Most of what I see and hear on the news looks like idiocracy (no offence). I bet Miliband didn't see that in China, but his lot have certainly facilitated that here in recent times! Does he know how? He does say some remarkably silly things, and shamelessly so too. It makes me think he may not know what he and his allies have done.

#1 statist

"The age difference between parties is one factor, as is assault. This is a difficult matter technically, and it's one which many reporters handle very badly in my view (cf. the recent hounding of a defrocked Catholic priest, and the recent piece on rape and the police). What much of this comes down to is evidence, and verbal reports are not all there is to that. Some issues are inherently problematic and that has to be accepted for what it is."

Reporters handle the subject very badly but National Socialist enthusiasts handle it very well?

why do people worship shakespeare. in the original its almost incomprehensible english. There are social themes that today would be seen as regressive if not illegal. why is it seen as worthy?

How about a piece on the whether the extension of the Prevent anti-terrorist strategy to include the far right is likely to lead to the emergence of information that will make clear how lone the "lone wolf" far right would be bombers we have had in recent years are?

Given that the far right posters on this page brag about their Leninist sympathies and hence revolutionary ideals - despite Hitler having exterminated any leftists in his time - they will clearly try to get away with all that they can.

On the child abuse topic I am very interested in whether the cycle of abuse to abuser does get broken of whether sex and legth of abuse mean that some people will tragically be lost to such illness.

The impression I have had is that established male abusers never get cured.

Also in particular the Baby P batterer brothers were monsters created by a system or simply aberrations.

How much of the Israeli strategy is a misguided view that they can simply wait till the Republicans get back in and continue with their aggressive policies and how much is it that the US probably relies a lot on the intelligence they gather against Islamic and al Qaeda extremists?

Its very unproductive and its hard to look at the Middle East and see any realistic chance of a viable long term strategy for peace.

I assume by the way the odious far right will start rattling on about Jews on this page.

Can I just say that though I am not a Labour Party supporter I hope everybody recognized the wonderful characteristics of Margaret Hodge last night and that supporters of all parties in her consituency will seriously consider giving her their vote at the next election if Griffin runs against her.

7. jauntycyclist 'why do people worship shakespeare. in the original its almost incomprehensible english. There are social themes that today would be seen as regressive if not illegal. why is it seen as worthy?'

Because it's hard (like maths and Latin). It can be used to select/sort out the more able from the less able. That is useful if one needs people one can later rely upon to follow instructions and learn from the experience of others (e.g. engineers, doctors etc).

Still, if one wants to undermine/subvert all that, just teach any old rubbish, and get rid of discrimination.

Why do you ask?

Define sexual abuse - in the absence of that, ask what you (or anyone else) are talking about/referring to.

See how important classes are? People assume far too much...Nearly all the time. If one acts/behaves as if this does not matter (and most of the legislation which goes onto the statute books is all that really matters, and is why so much time is spent on the wording), one really doesn't know what matters. Most professionals and politicians know this, so field lay questions with diplomacy. Reporters tend to be awful on this. They haven't a clue most of the time. They just foment emotional turmoil.

In case anyone thinks the above is an easy matter to resolve, ask these questions: a) how many adults know what sexual abuse is? b) How many sex offenders know what they are doing is abusive/wrong? c) If they don't know what they are doing is wrong, how can they be convicted under the law, and d) if they do understand that what they are doing is wrong, what is the function of cognitively based sex offender treatment programmes?

Grapple with a few of those, and my remarks about vigilante reporters may become clearer.

The legal age of criminal responsibility is 10 years of age, but that's physical age. It used to be the case that cognitive ability was measured as a ratio of mental age and chronological age. If someone is functioning at the cognitive level of an eight year old, and that's genetic, how can they reasonably be held responsible for their actions just because the rest of their body is functioning at its expected chronological age? These are the sorts of issues which some people have to deal with. Do journalists? What is the average IQ of offenders? What is their level of education? Did they plateau early? What can be done? Careful now....

How about other countries? Any evidence of them being more child-like? What's the solution to their socio-economic (developmental) problems? Are they all the same or is that just a convenient, contrary to the fact (see OECD PISA) fiction?

Apparently the majority of Russian mafiosos are communists and previous KGB spies. In the last 24 hours there has been a Europe wide crackdown on them, alas I can't see whether the action involved the UK in any way.

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/0316/At-least-69-alleged-Russian-mafia-arrested-in-European-crackdown

#15 addendum

I wonder whether the MI5 and MI6 have been involved in it. I think they should ivestigate whether there are any links in this country to the lovers of the former USSR and statism in general.

#10 Not sure that Go1 makes the best sponsor/agent for Margaret Hodge.
The electorate may prefer to study the track record of existing MPs on this generic site before making a decision:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/margaret_hodge/barking

Voting record (from PublicWhip)
How Margaret Hodge voted on key issues since 2001:
•Voted moderately for a transparent Parliament.
•Voted moderately for introducing a smoking ban.,
•Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.,
•Voted very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals.,
•Voted strongly for introducing student top-up fees.
•Voted strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.,
•Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.,
•Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
•Voted very strongly for replacing Trident.,
•Voted very strongly for the hunting ban.,
•Voted strongly for equal gay rights.,
•Voted moderately against laws to stop climate change.,
•Hardly ever rebels against their party in this parliament.
Other information on speeches, questions, etc., is also available on the generic site. Another site that may be useful:

https://www.powertothepeople.org.uk/content/gov/gov_how_to.htm

Probably 7 more weeks to assess track records, plus a budget next week and a Wannabe PM debate promised. The minor parties may even get a say?

Experience during the past decade indicates that if we want any change then - vote Radical.

#16 addendum

One never knows, on top of everything they might 'come across' sexual perverts as well.

Common Gordon and Mandy, you're supposed to be in charge!

#18

Mind you, one doesn't know what Mandy's been up to and as for Gordon? I have heard strange rumours...

The main Nn web page has a none-too-prominent banner asking for five minutes of ‘viewers’ time to complete a questionnaire about the Nn site.

When it asked about my ethnicity I attempted to skip on the basis that it is a totally irrelevant issue, I never answer this divisive type of question. On trying to proceed to the next question I was refused ....

So I back-buttoned.

Just what is the - valid? - obsession with ethnic origin? Why do we insist on segregation? Just exactly whom so benefits? Can it be of any use to community integration to continually insist that we must segregate?


10 years and 200 million pounds!

And now they want another enquiry!

Perhaps if the police weren’t spending so much time on ‘enquiries’ they might be able to get on with the investigation!

Move on!



An interesting composite of views on Have your say ..........

https://bbc.kongjiang.org/www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/should_police_scrap_stop_and_s.html

It kind of begs the question? .... Is there a covert ethnicity based agenda within the EHRC as it would appear that the self identifying ‘sample’ on this HYS have a different interpretation on the value and usage of ‘stop and search’ than the EHRC.

Is there an issue here of a piece of legislation causing conflict with other aspects of the legal system? Can anyone offer any information as to how much crime has been prevented by stop and search? Put another way, Can anyone offer any information as to how much crime has been prevented without stop and search?

Interestingly there is no request to posters on HYS to complete a survey asking for thoughts on the page even though a fair number seem to be disgruntled with the recent changes.

That said ... I have no problem with the changes as I prefer to read as many posts as my time allows rather than be diverted by a potential manipulation of the comments as occurred on the C4 comments page on the recent “British Islamic State” documentary. (The original comments appear to have been web-shredded which is a bit of a shame as these - original - posts may show the degree of segregation and separation of motives that exists in some communities. (Multiculturalism or differentiated-culturalism?) In fairness to C4 it allows the ‘debate’ to continue on another post-page allowing a - much fairer - balanced discussion. It was quite staggering how many of the original (pre-shredded) posters condemned the programme as racist sic and islamaphobic sic even before broadcast! Surely ‘kaffars’ are not afraid of the muslim faith? It is just they do not want it imposed upon them?)



There seems to be an outcry - so we told - that (ex) Local Authority CEO’s should pay back some of their golden handshakes if the obtain employment soon after leaving post.

Should this also apply to HMP’s whom will shortly receive Relocation Allowance? As to the amount of time that should apply before this needed requirement ceases? May I suggest ....

The entire duration of the rest of their natural lives!

Oops! .... I forgot .... A lot of them have got second - Third? Fourth? - jobs already!



Oh! .... Yes ....

And what was the turnout like for Pop-up Politics?

Is this really - No, I really do mean “really”. Really! - the best Nn can do to involve the GB public?


Oh! .... Yes .... Again!

Is, by any chance, the announcement of forthcoming increases in petrol prices an attempt by big business to affect the forthcoming election?

You might think so but I couldn’t possibly comment!



Finally .... (Yes, I know you’re bored, have skipped to the next post, gone to make a soya milk de-caff but .... We always bang on about freedom of speech! What about the freedom not to listen I hear you ask! Oh well, would I care?)

Mr Crick .... Some question for which you might be allowed to seek some honest answers? ....

Why the disparity between the amount HMP’s are originally asked to pay back and the actual payments?

What is happening about flipping and Capitol Gains Tax? (Other than it to have been forgotten!)

Is the outcome of the Lords authorities enquiry into expenses claims regarding an empty property a foregone conclusion?

They might think so .... but we couldn’t possibly comment!

I hope this subject has been balanced. It is extreemly important that infantile sexuality and sexual abuse are not confused. I expect this research to include the increasing high numbers of children being classed as Sexually harmful who are infact displaying normal infantile sexual behaviour. These children suffer the effects of adult abuse and thier lives and their families lives are often destroyed. I bet your reasearch does not include this HIDDEN ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!

...The world's five biggest AAA-rated states are all at risk of soaring debt costs and will have to implement austerity plans that threaten "social cohesion"...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7450468/Moodys-fears-social-unrest-as-AAA-states-implement-austerity-plans.html

we could save billions a year by withdrawing from afghanistan which, according to academic research and contrary to politic rhetoric, would reduce the internal threat to the uk. the vested interests won't like that as their budgets would start to be cut. at least 4 billion a year extra is spent on internal security. never mind the savings from operations in afghanistan.

11

It can be used to select/sort out the more able from the less able...

a bit mengele for me. i doubt that is why they were popular at the time and why they made billy a very rich man?

https://www.examiner.com/x-32936-Seminole-County-Environmental-News-Examiner%7Ey2010m3d15-Theory-of-CO2fueled-climate-change-challenged-by-experts

15. mimpromptu 'Apparently the majority of Russian mafiosos are communists and previous KGB spies. In the last 24 hours there has been a Europe wide crackdown on them, alas I can't see whether the action involved the UK in any way.'

According to the video in your link, you appear to have 'mistakenly' referred to the Georgian mafia as the Russian mafia ;-)

20. JAperson'a 'soya milk de-caff'

Is soya milk good for making coffee then? ;-)

23. jauntycyclist 'a bit mengele for me.'

Please don't tell us that you've been got to by the daft/evil equalitarians/Lysenkoists who seem to care nothing for the facts of life i.e. genetic diversity of behaviour/intelligence? Education is a selection process. It's just that people take a long time to mature.

22. jauntycyclist 'we could save billions a year by withdrawing from afghanistan'

What would the 8-10,000 troops be doing here instead? As they're not conscripts, they have to be paid anyway don't they? How would the billions of savings work out? Are we not charging the Afghans for services rendered (I'm not saying we are, I'm just asking)?

'GLOBOPOLY' - THE RULES OF THE GAME (#22)

When the exalted ones from the Swaggering Nations notionally sit round the Globopoly board, nukes, armed interference overseas, and high GDP bring 'advance' and status. But once embroiled in a war - however stupid - WITHDRAWAL (aka retreat) sends you back to the 'start' square. All the other players then laugh and sneer. It follows that Britain STAYS in Afghanistan NOT BECAUSE STAYING IS ADVANTAGEOUS - OF ITSELF, BUT BECAUSE LEAVING, IS AN IGNOMINY THAT OUR TOP NINNIES CAN'T HANDLE. Hence the 'reason' has changed several times and will change again.

If this is civilisation, no wonder Johnnie Foreigner will fight to the last man to repel its installation in his land.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

BUT THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW.

Can anyone explain to me (in language I can understand) why the, already unlikely, coalition of Brown/Mandelson/Campbell intends to add a fourth weirdo, in the person of Tony Blair, to their Machiavelli-fest of election winning?

What I am looking for is polls that show Tony as an asset WITH the 'et' left on the end. I am labouring under the impression that Tony is seen as the guy who loved Dubya unwisely, and got US into a war, and himself into Catholicism and big money. Have I missed something?

How is Tony going to increase the Labour Vote? Is it the Cherie factor?

this professor demonstrated in this free lecture that the presence of occupation troops is the cause of suicide bombing.

why has our govt have been saying the opposite? even long after this evidence came to light? their arguments do not seem to have the same evidence base he has?

https://www.learnoutloud.com/Free-Audio-Video/Politics/Contemporary-Issues/The-Strategic-Logic-of-Suicide-Terrorism/19519

32. barriesingleton 'Can anyone explain to me (in language I can understand) why the, already unlikely, coalition of Brown/Mandelson/Campbell intends to add a fourth weirdo, in the person of Tony Blair, to their Machiavelli-fest of election winning?'

As I understand it, what they do is come up with a bunch of ideas and then test them out on representative samples of the population for acceptability. If, form this, they learned that they would get elected by wearing underpants on their heads, they would probably do that. What they don't do is come up with ideas and then think 'What would the likes of Barriensingleton etc think of that?, because people like you are rational and therefore really quite rare these days (whilst people who like seeing people with underpants on their heads are seemingly very common indeed and comprise what is known as a 'core demographic'.

So, what they do is try out ideas on groups like Frank Luntz does. You may have have noticed that the samples which he works with do not seem to be a room of barriesingletons. In fact, they are not much like your average Newsnight viewer/reader at all.....

But hey, that's liberal-democracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNGWkid0mHs

NEW EU LAW UNDER THE LISBON TREATY: THEY OWN ALL SEA-ENERGY(#4)

If ever Scotland can undercut French nuke-power, just watch those laws appear Ecolizzy! It'll be like the days of Window Tax all over again.

27

..genetic diversity of behaviour/intelligence..

as you know that, for me, is not the highest idea of the mind.

if anyone watches the lecture the first 10 mins are a bit of waffle. it picks up after that. also one learns how ronald reagan was the key to this tactic being used in a modern setting.

What more people here should be thinking about (very critically given the scope which it has) is why the immutability of individual differences (diversity) in human behaviour (at the biological level) is such a taboo.

ecolizzy #4 barrie#36

As said wave power generators have probably been designed using computer software capable of manipulation by eleven year old kids, they will not be anywhere near strong enough to withstand all possible stresses. I have encountered said computer aided design and it often specifies a 10 mm bolt where any properly shop floor trained engineer would specify at least 12 if not 16. Likewise the strength of other components, but then the builders will not be operating them long term and if they can sell you a stronger replacement if they don't work out they don't care, perhaps just want the " green headlines " for their latest investment scam ?

go1 @ 10 wrote:

"I assume by the way the odious far right will start rattling on about Jews on this page"

Liberial Fascists - such as yourself - use that as a technique to shut down debate.

Whats your take on the Jewish oppression of the Palestinians?

My take is: the Jews need to go back home to New York so that the Palestinians can have their lands back.

Thats my own opinion..not a mad desire. I don't have OCD...unlike some!

Dare I say it...Jeremy proved beyond doubt tonight...that Washington is controlled by Israel.

WHEN EDGY TIPS OVER INTO PORNO

Newsnight - you go too far. Clearly you have at least one, probably two or more amongst you, who see fit to 'play' with the subject of human malfunction at its most disturbing. To present the subject of child on child sexual aberration, to background music, with models and shadow-games for further effect, is unspeakably gross.

You opened the subject with comment that 'sexual abuse is the most terrible thing one human can do to another'. Sadly - no; your presentation went beyond.

Anyone else notice Terry Smith and Lord Steel forming the Masonic symbol of conformance with their hands/fingers during the their piece on NN tonight???

"What we need is someone to be honest"

Please note, Blogdog and Newsnight............. ;-)

"Tonight, Jackie Long reports on the largely taboo subject of children sexually abusing children. Her report includes a powerful interview with a mother who discovered that her seven-year-old daughter was abusing other children, including her brother, having been abused herself."

I watched the broadcast and was left wondering yet again by the many and often pronouncements on "child" secuality (in quotes because the age range in question was 10-17, that is, over and just beyond the years of puberty), failing to bring puberty into the equation. As the UK age of consent is 16 we seem to magically assume that any sexual activity before 16 is abnormal or "needs to be treated".

The fact is that many children reach puberty somewhere between the ages 9 and 14. Biological changes happen in the body. You can't send them back even if you want to. (I didn't want to once I discovered one outlet for these strange urges.) But we seem in denial about this. Mostly kids discuss the matter with each other. It isn't a subject easy to discuss with parents for most pubescents; even if the parents decide to tell them about the birds bees. It's still very much a taboo and the last thing we want is parents and other adults, particularly the childless who have a knack of getting themselves into child psychology, treating all pre-16 sexual activity as abuse or abnormality.

How to tackle the problem of actual abuse and "harmful sexual activity" as the programme expressed it is difficult indeed. We don't want to introduce a whole new range of neuroses into society over what is after all a perfectly natural biological development.

One of the first discussions I've seen where the existing LibLabCon Alliance was openly discussed as a possibility for government. A corrupt triumvirate of expense fiddlers and house flippers with Vince Cable as Chancellor. Great, we'd be in the Euro by June. He also has a record of lying over promising a referendum and reneging on a manifesto promise for said referendum. Should fit in nicely with the other cheats and thieves involved in the Westminster Crime Wave.

37. jauntycyclist 'as you know that, for me, is not the highest idea of the mind.'

Only because you really haven't got a clue about 'the mind', and are still, lamentably, too much in awe of people's thinking which is now several thousand years out of date! ;-)

There's a similar explanation for why we don't teach Galenic medicine to medical students anymore, but I'm beginning to fear that you just won't be told.

Now that's why we are in a mess. It really is. It's a critical mass issue.

Statist probably doesn't have anything else to do but play his abominable word and sex play. No, he doesn't call it abuse, never mind rape, no it's just a fun play. Sick!

SOME ACQUIRE PRAGMATISM AND SOME HAVE PRAGMATISM THRUST UPON THEM

Slowly the truth dawns that party politics just don't serve in a lifeboat - you have to face one way and pull together. Setting aside Lord Steel's bizarre reference to Brown, Cameron and Clegg as 'mature people', Jeremy raised the unassailable truth that, in a serious crisis, a unity government is indicated. Better still, a party-free government, where no one party is working 'underground' to come out of the crisis with advantage over the others. The on-going 'lost motion' of party politics has yet to be quantified - though the millions of pounds that annihilate each other during 'election war', redolent of the Hadron Collider, are a good illustration of abject waste. Further, a hung Parliament will just lead to a new kind of PARTY GAMES. What is needed is wisdom and integrity in the INDIVIDUALS who engage in governance. Nothing less will do. Vince Cable makes a good stab at it, but I have seen (even) him dissemble, like the worst of them, when toeing his party line under pressure. Where are the individuals of true calibre? The hour cometh . . .

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Jauntycyclist - the overwhelming international scientific evidence from lots of studies is now that heritability of cognitive ability is about 80%, leaving 20% to non-shared environment, which means that for that 20% of the variance, we can try to protect young people (wih limnited success if the truth be known, especially in liberal democracies!) against physical damage post conception (i.e. post-fusion of gametes aka genetic material) but we have absolutely no evidence that we can raise ability (not even within the family never mind schools). This is based on monozygotic twin studies raised apart. Lots of work has been done to try to do the opposite and it has not succeeded. That's just how the science is done. People asserting otherwise do not know the evidence.

Now do you understand? (And please, don't tell me what the Greeks thought, or what most uneducated people in this area still think, as that's precisely why I am saying this, i.e. to enlighten them as to what is true!).

:o) Well end of speculation then - Jeremy has declined to become the Editor of the Independent! Loved Paraic's report. I'm glad Jeremy didn't go.....otherwise we'd rarely see him on screen. Could you imagine how many happy politicians there would be if he had moved? :p

Brilliant Jeremy tonight - particularly with Lord Steele & Terry Smith. Everyone was in (rare) agreement at the end of the debate. Also excellent report by David.

Well child abuse is a very sensitive subject, and Jackie tackled it very well. I was shocked to hear that there had been empty promises made since 2002, and now, because of the recession etc, perhaps nothing would happen now or in future.

AMERICA TO ISRAEL $2.5 BILLION PER YEAR

My brother, a self taught accountant and fine polymathic mind, always referred to Israel as a 'failed state'. From the size of the financial prop, it would appear he was right. This makes the APPARENT confrontation, all the more suspect. Is it all theatre, for the consumption of a gullible world audience? Should we be thinking: "Behind you"? Indeed, not dissimilar to our own Westminster charade, where opposing parties have more in common than dividing them.

Responding to ....

26. At 8:06pm on 16 Mar 2010, Statist

I honestly wouldn’t know, I’ve never been a - dedicated (or otherwise!) - follower of fashion but then I’m sure that people that know me recognise a few kinks in this particular premise.

That said .... I’m pretty sure that many amongst the lobbying elite swear by, and over, such a concoction.

By the way .... Nice post at No 34.

Another issue .....

It would appear that News24 has dropped the practice of showing the graphic of all the front pages prior to the newspaper ‘review’ that regularly follows Nn’s ‘shut down’.

Just whom, if anyone, has been so offended?


Also ....

Interesting “Hard talk” with Phil Woolas on News 24 right now.

#53

Mistress76uk

Are you speaking for Jeremy? How do you know he's in agreement with David Steel and the other guy about Vince Cable? He didn't say so.

As far as I am concerned, although Vince Cable does seem to have some good ideas others s smack to me of too much of an old socialist philosophy of economics.

JEREMY IS 'BRILLIANT' MIM - LIKE THE EARS OF MICKEY MOUSE (#56)

No matter which way Jeremy turns, the two most apparent facets of his character are always 'in yer face'. Disney lives!

I have no doubt that "Claire"'s account is true, and that Dr Eileen Vizard does invaluable work with these children, but I am outraged by the confusing way in which the report on such a serious subject was put across by Jackie Long. The shock title of the report "The Hidden Problem of Children Sexually Abusing Children" from the onset was questionable. It appeared to lay responsibility for what is essentially a 'crime' on the children themselves, as if they are not children at all and are in full knowledge of what they are doing. Sadly, this was in no way redressed throughout the report.

The abuse is undoubtedly learned behaviour, and remains learned behaviour in teenage abusers, through to adult abusers. The crux of the issue of sexual abuse and responsibility for it clearly lies with adults, and by that I mean non abusive adults within the wider community. It's THAT that is the big issue that is rarely addressed, least of all by the media, that has a bent for portraying monsters, be they children or adults, rather than human beings who have often been blasted off the road by unfortunate and extreme experiences. Experiences that they are sometimes doomed to repeat in an effort to come to terms and to integrate in a healthier way.

Dr Eileen Vizard, and others like her, have a tough job on their hands in a society that prefers to either turn its back on the responsibility for tackling the wholesale issue of sexual, and often violent abuse, or else prefers to stand for violently lynching an individual, albeit a child.

This whole-sale denial of responsibility belongs to a collective framework that generally perpetuates and tolerates, and even encourages the existance of these age old abuses in our so-called modern society. In this context it is hardly surprising that a representative from the Department of Health would not appear on the program, or that Newsnight's Jackie Long reported on the issue in quite such a misleading, confusing, and somewhat sentationalist manner. For want of a better way of putting it, if you not part of the solution, then you are part of the very serious problem. Rather than dangerously skimming the surface, Newsnight would have come across better with more of an in-depth, and vastly more insightful and intelligent report.

#57

Singie

Disney certainly lives and will do so for a long time indeed, till the end of humanity should mankind cease to exist one day, while you'll be forgotten, safe for your family and a few friends, as soon as you push off from this world. See the difference?

mim

40. At 10:40pm on 16 Mar 2010, brossen99 wrote:

With the minds and ambitions of politicians, those they bestow gifts upon, and those who take press releases as news, all focussed on the 24/7 news cycle, most 'news' usually lasts a day, or week at most.

Which can work to the advantage of those pitching anything in excess of this period. Boxes ticked, targets met, bonusses safely tucked away, what ever happens next Thursday onwards, they can be assured it will not come back to haunt them.

Hence I live in hope, if vain, that when various big ticket areas of science and engineering are concerned, beyond the 'whizz-bang' technology and best possible numbers oft quoted, there will also be some challenges on longer term issues such as reliability, longevity and maintenance. All of which can have consequences on delivery, costs and GHGs.

I sincerely hope that many renewables options can be designed to deliver, but salt water is an aggressive environment, especially for moving parts, and while wind can turn blades, it can also make just getting to and from structures tricky at best.

52

i understand you are materialist determinist and seek to impose that view on things that have nothing to do with it. such people say love is nothing but chemicals, courage can be found in a pill, honour is irrational delusion and kindness a mistake for losers and scientists the new priests.

have i talked about galen? or advocated studying it? where is the equivalence? the mental gymnastic for you then is if the good is not the highest idea of the mind what follows?

DebtJuggler wrote:
Dare I say it...Jeremy proved beyond doubt tonight...that Washington is controlled by Israel.
Well said DebtJuggler glad to see there is some else out there who has his mind switched on.
But I have to hand it to the American 'Talking Head' on the tele-link he certainly knows his job, if avoiding giving answers to Direct Questions is what he does for a living.

@ Mim #56 - I was referring to the two guests, Steele & Smith
@ Barrie #57 - Since when has Jeremy had big round ears which stick out? :p

58. snydesley 'I have no doubt that "Claire"'s account is true..'..

Which means you are not questioning her analysis of what she was told or saw?


'..The abuse is undoubtedly learned behaviour, and remains learned behaviour in teenage abusers, through to adult abusers.'

It is doubtable, and should be. What do you mean by 'learning'? Sexual curiosity and behaviour is innate behaviour which is spontaneously emitted like walking and eating, it is just shaped by environmental contingencies.

'The crux of the issue of sexual abuse and responsibility for it clearly lies with adults'

Kids are not under adult supervision all the time. There is one major 'problem'. Most healthy adults would not want to actively encourage sexual experimentation. It is well known from classic anthropological studies that cultures alien from our own allowed child sexuality up until puberty, after which children were often segregated.

The programme last night was rather naive in my view. I'm not at all surprised the authoritative body took the line it did.

It is disproportionately female reporters who take an interest in this subject - why. They make assumptions which they should not - why?. If one plans to air a taboo, one needs to do some good research and a clip like this is far too short to do a subject like this justice.

There are far too many people explaining far too many things in their lives via reference to alleged damage from sexual 'abuse' as children. That is cranky, pop psychology.

61. jauntycyclist 'i understand you are materialist determinist and seek to impose that view on things that have nothing to do with it.'

No, I'm telling you what the empirical facts are. You clearly don't know what they are. What do you base your (false) assumptions on? Do you base them on what you would like to be true? The danger of that is that it stops you looking for or listening to refuting evidence from reality. That is what I have done for you. Try to say 'thankyou' and change your verbal behaviour, instead of writing more silly things (on this matter, lots of your other stuff is fine as far as I can tell, and I learn from those);-)

62. Leighton 'Well said DebtJuggler glad to see there is some else out there who has his mind switched on. But I have to hand it to the American 'Talking Head' on the tele-link he certainly knows his job, if avoiding giving answers to Direct Questions is what he does for a living.'

The 'talking head' was just doping his diplomatic job. Clinton had to do a diplomatic retreaction. Paxman can ask provocative questions, but he knows his guests can only go so far.

Consider this. Back in 1962, the back door negotiation over the missile withdrawal from Cuba was that US Pership misslines were withdrawn from Turkey. Today, Israel is not a signatory of the NPT, and we have been led to believe that Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons - just down the road from Turkey. Why?

Meanwhile, Iran is being threatened because of its interest in WMDs.

Israel is the USA's strategic ally.

Get it? The USA will not make decisive policy position statements on Newsnight because it wants Isrsel to negotiatiate.

GULF WAR II (#59)

Mimso

Bit of a sarchasm between us there, methinks. (:o)

VEHEMENCE IS ILLOGICAL JIM

As we can neither prove the existence of a god/owner nor logically ascribe value to our - unique among animals - level of functionality (indeed, it appears mostly counter-productive) I suggest the most altruistic expression of HomSap would be speciecide.

You start. (:o)

Some great news in this morning's Daily Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7448557/Humans-could-regrow-body-parts-like-some-amphibians.html

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

WHAT WOULD NATURE DO? (#69)

That should make war more agreeable 76. But do we really have a leg to stand on?

A note on the end piece on the Independent report about statistics on youth offending (aka 'children' 10-17) being held back because of the election. In the article they refer to the 278,000 offences committed by young people in 1007-8 (i.e last year's figures/report, but note that that 278,000 refers to the disposals (i.e those offences which result in a conviction and sentence). Bear in mind that there are only about 600,000 adult prosecutions for all age groups (12 crimes million reported, 6 million recorded, and 1.2 million detected, and 200,000 sentences (120,000 community, 80,000 custodial (of which, 80% are for under 1 year averaging 3 months, 10% are for 1-4 years and 10% 4+) and that crime peaks at 18/19 years of age and then declines in rate!

So you're possibly talking about well over half the disposals each year being disposals of 'children', and the police etc dish out lots of cautions etc to try to keep these numbers from rising!

I'm happy to have those figures, proportions, checked, as they are from 'memory'.

This rather puts matters into perspective eh? This is what I mean about youth and subversion/anarchism in our liberal-demcoracy - it's what jadedjean, I think, meant by 'dysgenesis'.

I hate to say it, but it's worth looking into ethnicity too, if only to keep an eye on possible discrimination.

Lib Dems policy on immigration, as reviewed by Migrationwatch

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingpaper/document/184

That should have been 2007-8 and democracy, of course. Now, if you do subject yourself to trying to read the YJB report from last year, please read it very carefully (with 'due diligence' as hey say) as sentences are painfully constructed, and figures are carefully (some might say obfusctorily) presented, to be fair.

Keep in mind the big picture. When barriesingleton writes 'wise up the young', this is why I ask....HOW? given what else I have said above.

Until people begin to focus on what is real here, they will just be letting off steam.

Is that all you want to do?

#28 Stat...

What would the 8-10,000 troops be doing here instead? As they're not conscripts, they have to be paid anyway don't they? How would the billions of savings work out? Are we not charging the Afghans for services rendered (I'm not saying we are, I'm just asking)?

What would these troops do Stat, they could stop mass immigration to our shores and work in the Border Agency. The money saved from immigrants scrounging off our system for free, and our own people made to work, would pay for the troops. Hey and a bonus, no unemployment to pay either.

How about that for an easy solution? ; )

75. ecolizzy 'What would these troops do Stat, they could stop mass immigration to our shores and work in the Border Agency. The money saved from immigrants scrounging off our system for free, and our own people made to work, would pay for the troops. Hey and a bonus, no unemployment to pay either.

How about that for an easy solution? ; )'

Remember what I said about the functionality of age and critical cognitive ability? Why do you think this government would deploy troops to do what they have already made the IND unable to do ('unfit for purpose')? Do you think this government did not open up the borders?

You accurately see a problem, but you then get outraged that HMG doesn't seem to do anything about it. But it is doing something about it. It is making/letting it happen, it's just that it doesn't see that as a 'problem'. To HMG it is a good thing. Now, they it knows that some people don't think it's a good thing, so they spin what to try to get those people's votes too, often by guilt, by. accusing them of being racists etc (see the frequent guilt inducing pieces in the press about the BNP, Equalities Commission, alleged institutional racism by the police, teachers, and other public bodies etc.

The military is a public body too. They are Civil Servants in uniform!

Take on board what I am saying about the nature of post WWII liberal-democracy (Social Democracy). It's obvious if you just think about it - Cold War, anti USSR, anti state etc. What would be allowed here? What would be encouraged here. Just look at the USA, and think about it for a minute.

I offer this, like all else that I post, just as a stimulus to critical thought.

49. mimpromptu 'Statist probably doesn't have anything else to do but play his abominable word and sex play. No, he doesn't call it abuse, never mind rape, no it's just a fun play. Sick!'

Is English your first language?

What level of formal education do you have?

60. At 07:40am on 17 Mar 2010, you wrote:

With the minds and ambitions of politicians...

Which can work to the advantage of those pitching anything in excess of this period. Boxes ticked, targets met, bonusses safely tucked away...

Hence I live in hope, if vain, that when various big ticket areas of science and engineering are concerned, beyond the 'whizz-bang' technology and best possible numbers oft quoted, there will also be some challenges on longer term issues such as reliability, longevity and maintenance. All of which can have consequences on delivery, costs and GHGs...

Or... we can keep on blowing millions on 'awareness':

https://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8571000/8571694.stm

I credit the interviewer for pressing hard on the consequences of over-hyping and being called to account.

Though some others might also ponder this even if Mr. Miliband clearly hasn't.

Ticking a box on the number of folk who have clicked a URL after a £6m ad campaign shows his grasp of the importance of messenger competence matching the importance of the message is in its infancy.

The reactions to the recent Science Museum effort might have been more worthwhile to note.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6425738/Science-Museums-climate-change-poll-backfires.html

https://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2009/nov/16/science-museum-climate-change

Too many seem intent on blaming everyone but themselves for failures to persuade... as they fly around the globe sucking up bazillions issuing flat earth denials.

55. I'm still in recovery.

Sometimes I wonder if it's matter of taking the nation with me.... ;-)

DOMESDAY BOOK II (#75)

Thanks for the prompt Lizzy. I have suggested before that, unless we quantify the scope of 'black-residence' and 'black-economy' in the UK, we cannot hope to govern effectively.

So: when all the ports and airports are militarily sealed, let's have a surge - maybe a pincer double-surge - of returned troops, sweeping the entire land locating, identifying and recording under DOMESDAY II.

THEN - we send all the illegals home and the labour shortfall is taken up by the demobbed. Peace in our time.

PS AS I type, Mandelson is doing his most 'velvet voice'. It really IS Domesday.

80. barriesingleton 'I have suggested before that, unless we quantify the scope of 'black-residence' and 'black-economy' in the UK, we cannot hope to govern effectively.'

Have you also suggested that pigs might fly?

It is never a matter of coming up with great ideas. It's always about managing what is the case given all the other constraints. That's why it's all so hard.

Why would HMG do what you say with its troops when it already has plenty of Civil Servants who could have done that job already (IND and police)?

Hmmmm?

They're already being 'done' for discrimination in 'stop and search'!

#76 Stat...

To HMG it is a good thing. Now, they it knows that some people don't think it's a good thing, so they spin what to try to get those people's votes too, often by guilt, by. accusing them of being racists etc (see the frequent guilt inducing pieces in the press about the BNP, Equalities Commission, alleged institutional racism by the police, teachers, and other public bodies etc.

Oh I do realise that Statist, trouble is what can we do about it. I don't hate these people coming here, it's just I'm worried about how our population is going up. 200 years ago there were only 10 million of us, so what the dickens has happened, we must be breeding like rabbits, or someone is, if not the indigenous people, as you say.

Most of these immigrants are grateful so vote labour, now why isn't this gerrymandering on an enormous scale?!

As an aside Anybody noticed how many programmes there have been on the telly about nazi's, our empire, (guilt feelings) and the poor in the world, manipulation anyone?

This is what shiny boy Dave has to say...

https://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/17/black-britain-unemployment-conservatives

How the dickens did this family raise £100,000, I thought we were broke?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1258548/Sahil-Saeed-Two-Pakistani-men-Romanian-woman-arrested-Spain-kidnap-Sahil-Saeed.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo

82. ecolizzy 'Oh I do realise that Statist, trouble is what can we do about it. I don't hate these people coming here, it's just I'm worried about how our population is going up. 200 years ago there were only 10 million of us, so what the dickens has happened, we must be breeding like rabbits, or someone is, if not the indigenous people, as you say'

I'm not disagreeing basically, just urging you to look more carefully at classes and their membership (and how we do that). If we all look more carefully at that it will shape how we talk and write more effectively. That, in turn (if enough people do it) will make what is going on more obvious to more people. If we are not careful this way, we will just end up arguing or fighting/sleighting etc.

It isn't so much population growth per se as differential fertility. One needs a balance of people, and we are dumbing down too much. That is what bodes so ill. We will not have sufficient able people to provide essential services. Just look at the crime figures. Alas, this is largely down to too many able women wanting to go out to work and have independent means of support. It is understandable, but in the longer term it's demicidal. That's a fact. It is too counter intuitive for most, and far too many women won't see the logic :-(

People have got short memories, hasn't this experiment been done before? And the people in it acted the same way, wanted to hurt others.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8571598.stm

THE PRICE OF FAILURE - THEM AND US (#83 link)

When I was first in business, my arrogant self-belief was set against loss of the family home, to the bank. Failure would have been 'costly' in many ways.

Shiny boy Dave sets NOTHING against HIS arrogance. That is a stark difference between us. When politicians make a clear pledge to 'lose everything' (i.e. call an election) if a major promise is not overwhelmingly met, they might claim a shred of the 'honour' they so lightly wear.

86. ecolizzy - Yes, Milgram's 'obedience' studies. We are indeed awash with plagiarism and other forms of 'forgetfullness'. Lots of 'reality TV' draws on this, Zimbardo, and other 60s/70s social psychology. The formulaic tension-laiden shows like X Factor dwell on frustrative non-reward=punishment -> surprise/expection violation=reward a lot. It's all cheap psychology/TV, and very profitable too.

theres no crisis obama promised jerusalem as the capitol of israel, no slip of the tongue there.

it serves the usa just fine if israel were to 'unilaterally' attack iran , it then can claim it had nothing to do with it and yet it will come to its side should iran retaliate.

of course the need to build coalitions as pre war iraq , to provide the idea of peace to quieten down the mid east public isnt helped by israels announcements at this moment in time.

its the timing of the expansionist policies that is the gripe not that israel is building and expanding .

86. ecolizzy - and yes, he was Jewish, and his work, most timely.

- The world's five biggest AAA-rated states are all at risk of soaring debt costs and will have to implement austerity plans that threaten "social cohesion" -

well good job we have ripa and a raft of other useful anti terror laws ..

72. Bear in mind that there is a difference between offences and offenders. Each young offender accounts for on average two offences. Offenders are charged with offences, and the reports often blur the counts of both. The number of offences are important as are the number of perpetrators (offenders). Some offenders account for a massively disproportinate number of the offences committed. See the PPO project. Contrary to what many people think, most males have committed some sort of offence at some point in their lives.

Statist "I have no doubt that Claire's account is true.." I mean that what happened to her child is true. No I'm not questioning her analysis of it particualrly because that was not the point I was making. She's a feeling parent as we all would be in the same situation, though not all of us would feel or respond in the same way. The point is that sexual abuse of both adults and children happens. It's true.

I'm fully aware that sexual curiosity and behaviour is innate behaviour, but that is not the problem when it develops naturally. When a child is abused, the course of natural development and curiousity is traumatically fractured, by having too much imposed on the body and psyche at too early an age, leading to more odd and 'unacceptable' behaviours. What is learned? Do I really need to spell it out? For example, if you are 7 years old and an older or more dominant person puts their penis into the 7 year old's bottom, or tries to, several things are learned. For a start what was once believed to be one's own body in ones own charge, may be no longer be thought of as being in ones own charge. If the older or more dominant person comes, the 7 year old learns that a penis comes, and something about how.

Sexuality is bound up with 'identity', that is, one's own relationship to oneself, others, and the world. These relationships are often altered by the experience of abuse even for an adult. For a child to have direct and full-on experience of adult sexual desire and behaviour, comes NOT from not their own experience, or self-willed exploration, but someone elses experience, and for someone elses benefit. It is against the abused persons WILL.

The abused person can learn a number things from the experience, ranging from that their own body is not to be thought of as their own, or that they are not supposed to exercise their own will in all sorts of areas in life, or that there is nothing wrong with exercising their own will over others in the same manner. They can learn that if it is ok and acceptable for someone to impose their will in such a way on their body, then it can also be ok for them to do so too. This learned behaviour can also be repeated in an effort to come to terms and understand their own experience of it, which has more often than not, been traumatic and not in the least bit pleasurable.

I am over simplifying, because it a complicated subject, and everyone is an individual and experiences things differently, and there are always exceptions to the rule etc etc., but by and large it is generally understood that abuse exists, and is a confusing and traumatic experience, to one degree or another.

Women predominanty take an interest in these matters, because in womens history they have most often been the subjects of male domination and abuse, and have evolved in a particular manner emotionally. In general they tend towards a deeper connectivity with others, and especially with their children.

Times are changing and men are becoming more aware of, and involved in actions against abuse. In men's history they have most often been the dominant leaders and instigators, and soldiers of wars, and have evolved in their particular way emotionally. In general they tend towards a camaraderie and comradeship with their fellow men.

None of the above is rocket science so it follows that to understand it one doesn't have to have a degree in astroscience.

93. snydesley 'I'm fully aware that sexual curiosity and behaviour is innate behaviour'

Are you sure? How do you know what is innate and what is not in this area?

'When a child is abused, the course of natural development and curiosity is traumatically fractured, by having too much imposed on the body and psyche at too early an age, leading to more odd and 'unacceptable' behaviours.'

Where is the evidence for this causal effect?

'What is learned? Do I really need to spell it out?'

Yes, because a lot of behaviour is not learned, and so can't easily be modified. Whilst you're at it, tell us how the programme on Newsnight was about child sex abuse rather than child sex experimentation/play.

'I am over simplifying, because it a complicated subject, and everyone is an individual and experiences things differently, and there are always exceptions to the rule etc etc., but by and large it is generally understood that abuse exists, and is a confusing and traumatic experience, to one degree or another.'

I know this is a highly controversial area. Furthermore, that there is little that's very clear in this area is evidenced by the very poor efficacy of sex offender treatment programmes on reoffending.

'Women predominantly take an interest in these matters, because in women's history they have most often been the subjects of male domination and abuse, and have evolved in a particular manner emotionally.'

Really? Is that the reason? Might it not be because they have a rather poorer understanding of the science of behaviour and are far more prone to make stories up instead (they love cognitive psychology/therapy even though it's an empirical disaster)?

'In general they tend towards a deeper connectivity with others, and especially with their children.'

I don't think there's any evidence for that at all. In fact, I suspect there's prima facie evidence to the contrary given the upper tail distribution of intelligence above IQ=120 and the frequency of males vs females in the hard sciences.

'Times are changing and men are becoming more aware of, and involved in actions against abuse.'

Able men have always been aware of this. Able men know their (and everyone else's) limitations in this area. Females tend not to see them, partially for reasons alluded to above.

'In men's history they have most often been the dominant leaders and instigators, and soldiers of wars, and have evolved in their particular way emotionally.'

They are on average bigger, stronger and brighter. They also build more and tend to run things better. They are dominant because they have been biologically designed to be that way by Natural Selection. In many respects, in order to protect women and children!

'In general they tend towards a camaraderie and comradeship with their fellow men.'

No, it is females which are more field dependent. They are also much easier to merchandize/market to. Hence female liberation to a very large extent. Ask yourself why females have such a low relative profile in administration in the most socialist nation on the planet (China).

'None of the above is rocket science so it follows that to understand it 'one doesn't have to have a degree in astroscience.'

It's behavioural science, and that requires training. Do you have any, and do you have any training or experience in the assessment and management of sex offenders? I am being critical because I think you've just made a lot of what you think up because it sounds good to you. That is not the way this business works. It is driven by best practice/evidence.

Are you interested in learning?

Statist, I joined this blog only to voice my views about child abuse, not to devote my life to blog comments for the sake of it. My specific area of interest, research, qualification, and experience, has been centred around the issue of sexual violence and abuse. My knowledge and experience is quite adequate if not extensive compared to the average person. At any rate, I didn't think that it was necessary to have an arm full of degrees to use this blog.

My choice of language is basic and deliberately so. Sexual abuse is a matter for everyones concern, and not just academics, scientists, and managers of sex offenders. Adults are experts at using language, academic or otherwise, to avoid talking about matters that rattle the sensibilities. When it comes to issues of sexual abuse it's easy to get caught up in gender issues and battles.

"I am being critical because I think you've just made a lot of what you think up because it sounds good to you".

That's ok. Yes I have thought up my own thoughts and ideas, who has thought up yours?

"That is not the way this business works. It is driven by best practice/evidence".

There are yet things that have not been tried.

Are you interested in learning?

In my opinion, based on my research, (to give you an idea of where I am coming from), the root of the problem to do with sexual abuse has to do with sociology,...systems, history, as well as physiological/biological factors. This is not a new idea actually as you will know. Environment can never be ignored, and to me the emphasis is far more on environment as a root cause. Put a plant in the right soil and it flourishes. Put it in poor soil and it becomes contorted or diseased or dies. Changing enviromental factors for the better is one of the biggest challenges on the planet today, and I don't have all the answers, any more than anyone else does, but I do seek to raise awareness that when it comes to sexual abuse, we need to look a bit further than individuals, including beyond the home and family, to stand any chance of adequately addressing this issue.

I thank you Statist and the BBC mediators for engaging, provoking, and allowing my expression on this blog.