Newsnight Friday 8 May 2009

I believe the joke was made by one from the team who also was ethnically acceptable in all the right places to make it. For sure I saw it in a major political blog a few days ago. Funny old word, eh?

As is Mr. Robinson's latest blog again pulling its own plug at 300 in this time. Even funnier with, perhaps, a hint of farce.

Speaking of funny, though perhaps not 'ha-ha'.... just got this from another broadcaster that I think I co-fund and whose leanings don't always seem as objective and free of agenda as I'd like, but can seem to appreciate that facts are facts and on occasion the truth may hurt: '...The government is still digging. It seems the expenses scandal in the Commons will neither retreat nor clarify. The revelations in the Telegraph have embarrassed Labour today and doubtless the Tories tomorrow, but in the end the only party that has unfailingly sought to suppress the information and prevent it from coming out has been the governing party.

The lunatics are pushing every red button in the asylum, but too many who were and are tasked to cast a spotlight on them still seem to be taking comfort in simply saying that at least it could be worse elsewhere.

Laugh? I could have gone down the the pier and thrown some tea in the harbour.

What no Newsnight review? Also some of us do know about the DR Congo situation without NN having to tell us.

MP's expenses. I'm sure you could work swine flu into that, if you thought about it.

Celtic Lion

MP's expenses are MP's expenses but on the face of it what Hazel Blears appears to have been doing is blatant property speculation. It's straight out of " Location , Location TV, buying a series of rough run down flats and then renovating them at the taxpayer's expense. Perhaps each time coming away with a significant personal financial gain probably exempt from any form of taxes. Hazel Blears must represent the epitome of the Blair inspired Ten Bob Fat Cats.

I'm sorry but as a very distraught taxpayer I really cannot see why any MP finds it necessary to insult us all by making an expense claim for a
PACKET OF GINGER BISCUITS!

CAKE AND HA'PENNY STRAW

If I heard our Jack correctly, he had set up a DD to pay the Council Tax on his second home @ 50% of the full rate - so he was focused then alright! However, he had gone to the Westminster honey pot and claimed the FULL amount. I gather he said 'accountancy is not his strong suit'. Hmmmmmm.

This is not a matter of accountancy - even dividing by 2 is not accountancy. This is an odd mixture of astute diligence and dumb vagary -to ultimate advantage; an unlikely combination in a man who can quote dates and figures like a speak-your-weight machine when in full, boring, flood.

I seem to remember our Jack was more-or-less banged to rights telling porkies before? I have always found his vibes of the grating kind. Perhaps Crikey Crick could get those little terrier-teeth into the Straw Man's extremity, and hang on until his stuffing falls out, revealing the true Jack?

This expenses business is the crack we have needed to bring down the undemocratic, self-serving citadel of Westminster. Let's blow the roof off and bathe that dark heart in sunlight. Don't stop at their money, there is Westminster's special status as a royal palace and all that accrues therefrom, and the Speaker's lunatic power needs to be dismantled. The MP's rules and code of conduct also need inspection - how many people know MPs can choose to ignore their constituents - once elected?

Once more to the breach dear friends, once more, or they close the gap with our pathetic diffidence. Let's stop being so bloody British an DO SOMETHING. They do not go into politics to serve, or 'make a difference' (except to gain undeserved empowerment). They go into politics, drawn by its apparent status. Even the dishonourable become instantly honourable by entering Westminster. Small wonder they are so easily corrupted. Never forget the one thing ALL MPs HAVE IN COMMON - the blatant, overt avoidance of legitimate questions. This is deeply offensive in society generally, but de-rigueur in politicians. In short - they are despicable. Let's be shot of them: fools, knaves, connivers - the lot.

"...a lot of innuendo, a lot of incinuation of wrong doing without a single fact or piece of evidence to support it, you know, its a classic smear er this, you take a germ of truth, you distort it in order to turn it into something that it isn't"
Peter Mandelson.

Well, I find it a bit rich for the likes of peter Mandelson to suggest his own Modus operandi has been used by the Daily Telegraphs with their scoop on the early release and highly damaging - and possibly of democracy itself - of MPs expenses. A not so very good Mirror journalist and a low level TV reshearcher from the early 90s changed careers and their legacy has had a detrimental effect on politics and for the rest of us since, We can thank Campbell and Mandelson for that.

Transparency

This is not an attack on democracy , It is not that the system is wrong , It's the fact that some MP's might have made serious political errors with regard to their publicly funded expenses in the eyes of their electorate.

I guess they thought this information would never be made public.

I look forward to seeing what my MP has been claiming for in the past number of years.

I agree with Mr Cameron , it's up to each MP to explain themselves to their constituents , their employers.


On a different note -

I am no legal eagle , but this release of information is in the public interest is it not ?

#7 steve-london

"This is not an attack on democracy"

No but you could mention you have mentioned you were thinking of voting BNP and they are not a democratic party.

You also state the obvious they "might have made serious political errors with regard to their publicly funded expenses in the eyes of their electorate".

Yes thats what the fuss is about - and people won't vote BNP as a result so bye bye.

#5 barrie singelton

"In short - they are despicable. Let's be shot of them: fools, knaves, connivers - the lot."

But lets not vote in anybody who might think Hitler is a misunderstood chap on that basis eh!

#3 brossen99

"Hazel Blears must represent the epitome of the Blair inspired Ten Bob Fat Cats."

Whereas the BNP and Nick Griifin are the epitome of morality and respectability.

#8

"No but you could mention you have mentioned you were thinking of voting BNP and they are not a democratic party."

Please post a link where I "mention mentioned" such ?

If I may repeat, with one small adjustment to make it about the public rather than the MSM... 'a few still seem to be taking the crick simply trying to claim, over and over, that at least it could be worse elsewhere'.

thegangofone (#8,#9,10) Do you appreciate that even if other people were to vote BNP, as a legally constituted party, you are abusing people's democratic right to vote as they wish?

If you have something rational to say about BNP policies, by all means let's hear what you have to say. To date, all you do is make child-like, name-calling, remarks, which are annoying because they are not informative. What most people here want, I presume, is to read why policies are just, workable, unworkable etc.

Do you understand?

Newsnight SO has to cover the Arthur Kemp/BNP link covered in the Guardian.

'A far-right activist linked to the murderer of the South African Communist party and ANC leader Chris Hani in 1993 is playing an influential role in the British National party in the run-up to next month's European election campaign.

Arthur Kemp runs the party's merchandising arm, Excalibur, and was pictured this week at the BNP's election headquarters in mid-Wales helping to prepare thousands of campaign leaflets.'

Also:

'Photographs emerged of Griffin alongside former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard Stephen "Don" Black one of the extremists banned from the UK by the home secretary, Jacqui Smith.' etc etc.

Meanwhile in Russia they are celebrating the victory over the "peace loving" Hitler (as described by a far right poster on this page) in 1945.

Was that the day Hitler shot himself and had his body burned rather than be tried for murdering millions?

#13 Jaded_Jean

What I understand is that you have a ludicrous view that the Holocaust did not happen; Hitler was a peace loving guy; you are not for democracy; you believe in race "realism"; you promote the Eugenics Education Trust and you would like to see more coverage of the BNP on Newsnight.

I don't share those views and I am happy to help prevent this page being used as a propaganda tool for the far right.

Sadly as the meaning of what many of the far right posters say is masked - but apparent - the moderators have to let them pass.

I heed only to the moderators - I despise everything that you stand for. I do so hope thats clear.

Let's not forget, we are just seeing abuses revealed which have been going on for decades. To give credit where it's due, the current crop of MPs have, collectively, (with some resistance for sure), effectively made these abuses public - albeit under pressure from the press. Without the FOI enacted by these MPs, it would not have come to light.

Currently, there are, I suggest, more far more important matters to be focused upon - like, who ultimatly is the P in PFI now that the banks (and even supermarkets!) can't securitize their 'assets' so venally. Thinking about this should make one focus on how the atate is abrogating the responsibility which it has to the electorate, or, how anarchists are still breaking the state up in the interest of speculation/entrepreneurship/big business. That, I suggest, is why we keep seing and hearing so much anti-statism, anti-authoritarianism.... i.e equalitarianism. But, it's not communism, it's exactly the opposite, it's Trotskyism/Thatcherism! Divide and conquer.

thegangofone (#15) "What I understand is that you have a ludicrous view that the Holocaust did not happen; Hitler was a peace loving guy; you are not for democracy; you believe in race "realism"; you promote the Eugenics Education Trust and you would like to see more coverage of the BNP on Newsnight."

Which just goes to show your very limited undertanding. Who were Pearson, Spearman, Fisher and Cattell?

Here's what you do. You minimally comprehend what others post, and then have the chutzpah to assert that your limited comprehension is what posters have written/referred to.

thegangofone (#15) Look at this map. What is the problem is highlights? This is just part of the problem that Germany was grappling with in the 1920s/30s.

One should consider writing to Jacqui Smith suggesting she add thegangofone to the least wanted list. After all, the US DJ Mr Savage looks pretty lonely on the list among the names of skinheads and murders.

p.s. I tried to complain about his posts once, but apparently the moderator thinks there isnt enough ground to block his comments just because they are offensive and untrue. I guess it is good to know that freedom of speech is alive and kicking in the BBC studio. Although, what is so different between this and email smears, which caused public and media outrage and the minister had to go because of it?

CASTING PUBLIC INTEREST BEFORE A DISINTERESTED PUBLIC (#7)

"I am no legal eagle , but this release of information is in the public interest is it not ?"

What do you get if you cast pearls before a horse that will not drink? The British electorate.

It's the ETHOS of Westminster, de facto connived-at by all 600-odd that is the rotten soul of Britain. And from that ethos, distil a series delusionals who, as Prime Ministers, ride to imagined destinies on an ever higher tide of state failure and mass misery.

With this incident, the true heart of governance, HYPOCRISY, is writ large. If we dismiss it as a side issue, we play their game. The guilty will be exposed and reprieved in time-HONOURED style for political scandal; but what of the dogs who did not bark? They must not be lauded.
Fools did not know (apparently) and knaves connived; any one of them might rise to Prime Minister. Do we really want another one?

MP Expences/Sleaze

Self Inflicted Wounds

Chargable Offence in the Armed Forces. You can get Kicked out for it/them.

Queens Regs in Parliment = No MP's

Job Dun

Hhhmmm I hope all this MPs expenses stuff is not put up just to keep our minds off elections!

One thing I would say about the expenses system. I believe originally it was needed, a lot of MPs were former union reps. or ordinary work people, who could not afford to have two homes etc. They could not afford London priced hotels etc. But now they are all professional politicians, with money aplenty, so why are they so greedy with our money?! They even appear to buy the most mundane items (DVDs, bath plugs) which most people wouldn't even consider charging us for!

Thegangof1

you keep flapping about the bnp, trust me I am not a politician, there wont be any Gas Chambers coming 2 a town near you anytime soon as long as I am still Kicking.

ps houses of parly dont count/they cant (cheep/expence shot)

mademoiselle_h (#19) "p.s. I tried to complain about his posts once, but apparently the moderator thinks there isnt enough ground to block his comments just because they are offensive and untrue."

What's really offensive (to all) is that he misleads by making no effort whatsoever to fairly and rationally answer posts which clearly are intended to point out how and why his assertions are either factually incorrect, or at least, open to rational/empirical analysis. Ironically, such incorrigibility describes the behaviour of a bigot.

expenses news a blow to democracy?

more like its a victory for democracy and a blow for the days of troughing?

thegangofone (#15) "Sadly as the meaning of what many of the far right posters say is masked - but apparent - the moderators have to let them pass."

The reality is that you don't accurately read (or even report) what other people write, instead, you latch onto the odd word or phrase hre and there and distort what's written to suit your own odd purposes. You impute whatever you choose whilst ignoring what's actually writen. In short, you are rather bad at comprehension. When do you ever ask for clarification? You don't....

"I heed only to the moderators"

So, you have no respect for other posters and their views? That fits does it not?

"I despise everything that you stand for."

I don't think you understand what I 'stand for'. You certainly get barrie and many others wrong too. They have gently, and sometimes not so gently, pointed that out. Yet you persist. I'm still quite happy to clarify if you are prepared to listen, but it appears you are not.

"I do so hope thats clear."

What is clear is that you don't understand, and that you make no effort to try to understand and rationally discuss, what other people post. Not only is that bigoted, it's also tyrannical. This is indeed ironic. Look up the characteristics of The Authoritarian Personality and the F-Scale. What you mistakenly see in others (cf. nacissistic projection), is, perhaps, yourself.

#8 thegangofone

For the second time.

Quote
"No but you could mention you have mentioned you were thinking of voting BNP and they are not a democratic party."

Please post a link where I "mention mentioned" such ?

Post 26 You are More than A Match for Any Man,Pity some other persons cant See It/That

I Never Surrender but in Your case 2 hands are steadily creeping North

Timid Regards

#21
"Self Inflicted Wounds"
Indeed, but maybe their constituents think their MP's claims are justified.

With full transparency of claims , it is left for the individual voter to decide.

#22

Agreed , I think MP's should still be able to claim , but it should be published so a MP's constituents can decide if it's justified or not.

Maybe a independent MP ,a non party backed MP might need financial support and his or her constituents might be completely happy with them claiming a second home in London and furniture for it.

#25
Again agreed , MP's saying this is an attack on democracy is just spin, in my humble opinion.

29 Full Transparency of Claims. Agreed I Agree.

Another thought on MPs expenses...

I expect they are nothing compared to the amount an MEP spends!!! Have you seen the junkets shown at their conferences on the TV?! Will that young woman (I'm sorry I've forgotten her name) please persue that in the national interest!

31 Eu/Mep's started with good? intentions? MMM possible, but Now its A Joke its all gone Pear Shaped/Pete Tong. It should be Scrapped/Binned.
The Books have Never been Balanced/They spend Millions trying 2 brainwash people how good it is. 2 reasons alone, does there need 2 be any others

#31

I was staggered by the numbers mentioned in the UKIP party election broadcast earlier this week.

£40 million a day ?

No wonder our government refused a request in the House of Commons for a cost analysis of membership of the EU last year (or was it the year before ?).

ecolizzy (#22) "But now they are all professional politicians, with money aplenty, so why are they so greedy with our money?!"

Is it because their constituents are really just a means to an end?

I fear Barrie has many of them summed up rather astutely, and your use of the term professional makes it all the more unsettling :-(

They spend a lot of time and effort coming up with suitable phrases to persuade others (see 'The NN Panel' all 'communications' people - why? ), and it helps if they appear to believe those phrases themselves. What we should be asking, I keep saying, is what have they delivered?.

All I see is anarchism. I see a society which is approaching negative growth like the rest of Eastern Europe, and probably would be there already had it not been for massive immigration (which I think serves economic predators in the end). I see a messed up economy, driven by awful people whom we see our most senior politicians doing well for, and later, well by. I see a lowering, not a raising of eduction standards (because of differnetial fertility), I see an increase in offending behaviour (reported/recorded or not) in our schools and communities, breakdown of the nuclear family etc etc.

I think the expenses fiasco is a distraction indeed. I also see what are otherwise intelligent/able people, unwittingly arguing to make it worse because they have been effectively cowered by years of black propaganda, and can't/won't see it. Muslims call this jahiliyya which I reckon is not coincidentally associated with the anti-capitalist/usury notion of 'false-consciousness', 'bad-faith' or 'alienation'. It's almost impossible to get this through to people who have been effectively educated to see the world solely in terms of consumerism and self-interest - and that has been the case since the 80s. From their perspective, any non Liberal-Democracy is undeveloped', oppressive, or backward.

addendum (#34) "Bank of England officials are concerned that big banks now supported by the taxpayer, such as Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group, are struggling to increase lending volumes, as they had promised in return for help from the government."

Guardian 8th May 2009

I thought that at best our government was inept, a failed culture of over regulation and more and more laws to ensure the voting public is kept in its place, and that was before their catastrohic handling of the economy. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that we find that whilst they have been incompetant in running the country they have been betraying us. I am sure their minions in applying the laws would not accept pleas of innocence from the rest of us. If they are not outright criminals then they certainly have not worked within the spirit of the rules. Honour and trust are hard won and cannot be bought back either by repayment or apology. Once it is lost you are finished, just so this government and the other criminals from the other parties, we need a clearing out of these failed incompetant apologists and an election now of people with character and honour

THE HOME OFFICE 'LEAST WANTED' LIST

This is most probably a distraction so we, the electorate, don't create our own 'Least Wanted' list, and vote them out of office!! It's a pity we can't deport them. I doubt anyone would have them. Probably an EU/UN Human Rights matter!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

the mod has to adhere to guidelines and i respect that; am gonna try some editing/censor and see what, by ommision the offending paragraph/line was...??@@**!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

okey , am gonna pull the Jewish one-liner gag.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Moderator, do you do charity work by any chance ... because i need some right now. there's gonna be nothing left at this rate!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

one last go coming up, now i know how Bill Hicks felt every time he appeared on the Lettereman show.."no! you can't mention wheel chairs or do jokes about gays/lesbians, we have standards and practice guidelines to adhear to"..hicks: " but but but there's gonna be nothing left..Jesus"...no ! you can't mention Jesus it will upset our demographic"

****** ***

****************************************************and
********************************************************
***************************but*****************************************
************************BNP*****************go1

leather boots***************************************
*************************************************************
*************************************************************
********************************************virgin trains
**************************************************************
So that's it...am coming out of the closet...am a German uniform wearing officer class **** - the leather boots are great, can't stop polishing them - and me and my best mate Nick Griffin (future Chancellor) are gonna rule the free world. America, Australia, and large chunks of Africa...Oh wait a minute...that's already been done! well we're gonna have stormtroopers who will crush any dissent to our new regime, you may have seen them operate when Blair/Brown used them against the country side alliance, yeah the transition will be seamless...(i've gotta try and get somethin in)

*****************************************************************
******************************************************************
******************************************************************

mod 1 cookieducker 0: you win

thecookieducker nos 39-46 inc.

Free speech huh? Wot a larf! If you think it's bad here, try the Grauniad's 'Comment is Free' blog, but not if you suffer from high blood pressure.

I think Ecolizzy's linkon the Thursday blog is pertinent.

thecookieducker (#39-#46)

Thanks for brightening things up :-)

JJ Thanks for the false consciousness link. As you say it is very difficult for people inside Plato's Cave to realise, unless they understand the world outside.

There is not enough questioning of the basic tenants of society. The media and people should keep asking why, why, why to everything.

Why when this Government say their one over riding priority is the economy, do the media not just ask, Why? Only 3 letters.

Since when has some abstract concept you cannot see, hear, fear, touch become more important than life, love, our planet, our future, happiness, etc.

A few nights ago I walked across the field near our house. Clouds flowed over a nearly full moon. Stars poking out through the gaps against a dark, dark, blue. A hedgehog joined me. I saw no economy only beauty.

Why?

Celtic Lion

KingCelticLion (#49) "Since when has some abstract concept you cannot see, hear, fear, touch become more important than life, love, our planet, our future, happiness, etc."

Since nobody did anything unless they were paid to do so? Since doing otherwise was deemed 'a mug's game' Since caring about others was deemed impossible without an ulterior, selfish, motive? Since the welfare state was described as 'inefficient' and as an insidious step on 'The Road To Serfdom'? Since 'an enemy of the people' or 'dissident' became coextensive with being a 'good guy' to the West?

In short - since we were scared-off statism? ;-)

#49 Leo and #50 JJ

Excellent observations! ; ) I always ask Why, and I always want the interviewer to ask that very question, but they hardly ever do, Jeremy does sometimes.

47 Newfrazer: interesting link and scary, them thought police eh...plus the word 'Pertinent'. Gonna start using that word, slip it into my next post if possible.

Jadedjean...your welcome:)

KingCelticLion (#49) "There is not enough questioning of the basic tenants of society. The media and people should keep asking why, why, why to everything."

Just so long as it isn't that epistemological anarchism/nihilism ('Anything Goes') which some took far too seriously in the 1970s. Paul Feyerabend is in print stating that he set that up a straw man so his quasi-Popperian friend Imre Lakatos could knock it down. Sadly Lakatos died unexpectedly! Now we have hordes of grown up, Oppositionally Defiant 'kids' (most of whom won't those those names) who think they're being inquiring/clever by arguing with people even when they know next to nothing about a subject.

Asking questions is a different game altogether. It's respectful to start with, and it shows a willingness to be better informed.

FURTHER TO MINE AT POST 20 ABOVE

Radio 4 offered Tony Wright stating:
(1) all MPs knew about the fiddling.
(2) an abusable system WILL BE ABUSED.
(3) Brown never wanted to be associated with sleaze.

To me, this points up the conniving and abusive nature of Westminster, but where J Gordon Brown is concerned: I am in no doubt his 'Mr Hyde' persona DELIGHTS in the unpleasant aspects of life (as recently illustrated). Manse Man with moral compass would, of course, be distraught to encounter the ways of Hyde, and that realisation may yet be his undoing.

54 Barrie

How can I put this so you will comprehend. You need to understand the former occupation of wee Jimmie Broon's spouse. When I was shortlisted to run the millennium Dome as a global environmental centre I contacted a PR company to represent the project.

This is from the Downing Street website. Please note there is no doubting the factual accuracy at all. One would consider the facts would have been checked.

https://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ecodome/

Now this from 2006. £50 billion per year from 2001 was £250 billion. Now in 2009 that would be £400 billion. Within a few billion of what the Gov had to borrow so far to cover the recession losses.

Guess whose wife's company wrote to me knowing all the facts and figures that her PR company could not represent the project until it was the chosen successful one. Sort of pointless.

Don't you think once she may have mentioned once to her husband had the Government chosen that option the UK wouldn't have had to borrow the £400 billion and the UK would never have experienced the recession.

Me I wasn't serious. Since I have done nothing apart from being one of the scientists who set up the new generation of climate models,(1 Nobel) had the 2005 G8 agenda based on my recommendations, had Al Gore quoted me when told of his Nobel (2nd contribution) and set up the site and be general foreman of Europe's largest civil engineering project. £ 30 a second and brought in weeks and £millions ahead and within budget.

Leo

Where's the Gangofone, here's an article for him https://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/09/bnp-european-elections-labour He might get to understand the reasons WWC are turning to the BNP. A very good article written in an honest way.

Sorry Leo I wish there was some answer for you, but I think your ideas were too complicated for the government.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/playing-the-system-loopholes-used-to-avoid-tax-1682294.html

DOUBLE/NEW-THINK

Here's something on liberal-democracy and its paradoxial, counter-intuitive, wonders. Why would a Trotskyite/anarchist like George Orwell (see his time in Spain) make out that the state is such an oppressive 'Big Brother' if not to promote exactly the opposite, i.e. the anarchistic free-market and democracy from below? Why does anyone take seriously the assertion that we live in over regulated times when the evidence points to the opposite, e.g. that the FSA and other deregulators functioned to encourage free-enterprise/markets and borrowing? Why is there sysematic propaganda to make people fear statists if we are so over-regulated?

These are muddy-waters indeed.

A CURRENCY ISSUE

I gather the some part of the Sunday press says the allowance fiddles have 'brought Parliament into disrepute'. To those of us with good noses (both for human psychology as well as bad smells) IT WAS ALREADY IN DISREPUTE. The only difference today is that the slumbering masses, unable to sleep from lack of cash to buy lulling necessities, have noticed!
Westminster governance is one central rotten borough, its rituals, trappings and lack of integrity, harking back to bygone age. Politics is not a synonym for viable management; politics means deceitful power. I seem to remember they levelled the house of Fred and Rose - let's do the same to the Palace of Westminster, then ban political parties and elect only established local individuals of integrity to manage Britain. Buy back the dome and let Parliament meet there, as a perpetual reminder to GET IT RIGHT!

Yo! Celtic my man! I have no idea how you got from #54-55 but I uphold, to the death your right etc . . .

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

OK Mod If at 1st you Dont SuckSeed

If I had the choice of saving the lives of 10 children of what ever race/religen etc and saving the lives of our MP's

Guess just TRY and Guess what my choice would be

Mod EYE Lied

One childs Life of any Race/Religen etc 2 Me is worth more than that Shower.

Can They Understand the Concept/Conception?

It dosnt Look lik it 2 Me from where I am Sitting.

dAllan169 (#61) Whilst the people are in part culpable, to a large extent it's the systyem of rules (or in technical terms, the contingencies controlling behaviours). MPs have acknowledged that the system is wrong. What we should be doing is demanding that their behaviour is held more accountable in general. That's what the democratic process is supposed to be about. We should also think about the bogeymen of the past, for what is 'the party' in Soviet systems of democratic-centralism other than a selected group of Civil Servants working for the state on behalf of the people? When this elite of Civil Servants failed to behave as loyal, decent party-members i.e. according to the 'Code of Conduct' they were purged, which just meant sacked (unless it was a crime). The fact that there were people who abused the system and that the West knew about this did not make the Soviet system a bad system, it made it a good system! If one removes regulations and the means to enforce them one ends up with anarchism and corruption, which is largely what we've been seeing recently.

Ecolizzy (#57) Excellent post and link.

Post 63 JJ
I Bow 2 your Comment.

The Fundimentals that make me mental/mad

Human Right Lawyers who earn £500K a year of Taxpayers hard earn dosh who have no Idea on Human Rights.
Now if they were paid the same as a top nurse I would have Nothing to complain about, better still do it for Nothing.
I believe you and I have an interest in Human Rights and we do it for Free as do others.
One small example there are many many more.

I have done an anger management course did it work JJ?

On expenses Newsnight may want to consider how you distinguish playing the market from legitimate reasons to move. Profits could be taken - but then due the "Iron Chancellors" economic planning there could be MPs selling up at the general election with negative equity - do we indemnify them.

Its not as straightforward as some suggest.

There are those who would talk about human rights - but would ditch democracy and the prejudice legal system that protects us. They believe in race "realism" and racial purity - exemplified by Hitlers symbol of a Heck cow (that tells you everything).

Would such people be trustworthy? Apparently they don't believe the Holocaust happened and will run out statistics - despite the absence of reliable base census statistics for Jews in the 1930's.

They have never appeared at the trial of a Nazi war criminal and won't be appearing at the Djemjanjuk trial.

On a separate note it was excellent to see the post-Apartheid Zuma elected as president, democratically, in South Africa.

Also the Russians celebrated the defeat of the Nazi's over the weekend. Was it a good thing that they made sure there was no memorial site for Hitler? I think so.

I suppose some of those race "realists" that were rejected by the masses there came over here to try their hand with the BNP.

They must like rejection. Probably a genetic thing relating to their psychology.

#34 Jaded_Jean

"It's almost impossible to get this through to people who have been effectively educated to see the world solely in terms of consumerism and self-interest - and that has been the case since the 80s."

People have been rejecting the far right since the 1930's. It had a lot to do with WWII.

People who have not "been effectively educated to see the world solely in terms of consumerism and self-interest" try to claim that Hitler wanted peace. I won't even bother with your views on the Holocaust.

Why don't people believe you, tsch!

People will go on rejecting the far right so .... take the hint.

Are people om the far right touchy about Hitlers suicide? It was the anniversary wasn't it?

I only mention it because as a "peace loving man" with nothing to fear from the truth or retribution from the Russians who were just down the road its odd that he did not want to protest his innocence. Did he think the Russians (and many on the far right seem sympathetic to Stalin) would be harsh to him? Just because of the deaths of tens of millions of Russian soldiers and civilians?

Can't remember whether he had a soldier shoot him or whether he shot himself.

I suppose the bullet would have been a museum piece if it had been found.

Would people have wanted to kiss that bullet? It would have worn out quite quickly from the millions that would have queued up to show that they did not see Hitler as a "peace loving" man.

thegangofone (#66) "There are those who would talk about human rights - but would ditch democracy and the prejudice legal system that protects us."

Socialist countries put duty to others before individual rights. Think about a family, what if parents put their own rights or interests before their childrens' or their parents'. It is considerably more subtle than you appreciate. The German and Soviet systems put the people before the selfish, narcissistic individual.

"They believe in race "realism" and racial purity"

They put their people before colonists who refuse dto assimilate and who practiced endogamy at the indigenous people's expense. As to racial purity, why did Hjalmar_Schacht" encourage the Shah of Persia to change the name to Iran, meaning Land of the Aryans? Might it have been that in the 1920s and 1930s Germany was desperately trying to recover from the mess of the Weimar Republic. The German nation (Reich) needed to consolidate and develop a sense of pride in itself given its recent dire politics, econonics and low birth-rate?

You appear to have little grasp of true history, just propaganda. You do not appea rto appreciate how a minority of self-interested predators can and do exploit trusting others for their own short-term narcissistic/psychopathic interest, whilst spinning it as something benevolent like 'freedom' and 'choice' (caveat emptor).

tehgangofone (#67) "People have been rejecting the far right since the 1930's. It had a lot to do with WWII."

It was a LEFT WING socialist party. I have said this many times now, and it still doesn't change your behaviour. Just because large numbers of oter ill-informed people believe falsehoods does not legitimise your doing so. You should read this and consider carefully what is said in point 6. What the USSR and Germany both opposed was venal free-market liberal anarchism and Trotskyism. The West spun this otherwise for obvious reasons. When the UK tried to implement National Socialism (Nationalising the Means of Production) in the guise of Old Labour, after the war, it was ultimately subverted by the USA.

67 2 sixtynine eh

I do believe JJ has ran rings round you

she has me

#65-68

Any answer to my polite question in #11 and repeated in #27 thegangofone ?

If you don't answer, people might conclude you have the air of McPoison about you, hopefully we the taxpayers are not paying your wages.

Have a nice day !

Side Stories I know

I found this a interesting read.

Also this.Who will make up for the vat and tax we might have lost from this guy ?

Owell, lets hope NuLabour does not turn against big business and drive them off shore as well. What am I saying , they are going to increase national insurance that effects how much a employee costs a business to hire.

I bang my head against the wall sometimes at this Governments knee-jerk headline grabbing reactions.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

73 the Criminal Justice? System is Criminal. by definition nulabour goverment the Same. Pay Tax for these Clowns, not a chance Offshore for me 2

Mr or Mrs Moderator

With regard to post #74

Why does pasting a link (instead of embedding it in html, that this time seemed to have mangled the address, so it did not work) to a telegraph story break the house rules ?

Or was it that I corrected the last sentence of #73 , with the addition of "metaphorically speaking of course." ?

Any clarification of what I did wrong would be greatly appreciated.

#75

I would like to go off shore , somewhere warm , the problem for me is that I get homesick very quickly, but saying that I did like Gibraltar when I last visited it, not much room for building a house and always under threat of the Spanish shutting the border, but it was like a tiny bit of Blighty in the sun.

A neighbour of mine recently moved to Australia , it took them nearly 2 years to get the papers to do so, but I can see the attraction of such a place, space (land) , sun and not a overbearing state wanting to know what your doing and telling you what you should be doing.

I live in hope one day (hopefully soon) things will change here for the better, if not maybe I'll start looking at moving.

IT AIN'T WHAT IT SEEMS - OR SO IT SEEMS TO ME

Steve-London (#77) "..and not a overbearing state wanting to know what your doing and telling you what you should be doing."

There's possibly a paradox and illusion here. Since 1979 the state has been eroded in favour of free market-forces and privatisation. The cost of which has been a further increase (it began after WWII in fact) in anarchistic/delinquent behaviour throughout society (most recently we've seen the legal but venal white-collar variant). The apparent increased scrutiny is perhaps the last vestiges of the state as we become even more individualistic and decadent, not an increase in the oppressive power of the state. People are just becoming more anarchistic as family life breaks down, and more (especially females alas), think of themselves well educated.

I hope Newsnight is trying to find out how it is nobody can find McBride? Aren't Labour worried about him? That HoC committee looking at the emails smear would also love to talk to him.

#78 Jaded_Jean

"People are just becoming more anarchistic as family life breaks down, and more (especially females alas), think of themselves well educated."

Most who look at this page know what you stand for.

But many who have read history would, as examples, conclude:

There was a Holocaust.

Hitler was not a "peace loving man".

The people served Hitler and he served only his own will, in an tyrannical, anarchistic and destructive way.


Those who have read science may think:

Genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and there is no basis therefore for race "realism".

They may also conclude on the basis of thousands of years of accumulated research that there is climate change due to human impact and the third tower on 9/11 crashed because of the effect of aviation fuel and burning metal from the Twin Towers.

You are talking about brainwashing and not education as you fear what you can't control and education liberates.

#78

Hi Jean

Paradox's, by there very nature are confusing things :)

I have to admit I am confused , if one was to assess the size of the state in the economy surly one would also have to include it's expansion period ?

As you have alluded to before, in 1945 Labour's experiment with it's type of national socialism (not sure I 100% agree) and it's nationalizing of industry and other sectors of the economy. I would go further and say one would also have to include the period of the war itself, when large sections of the economy were requisitioned for the purpose of war production and if one was being pedantic one should also include the work programs of the great depression.
I would suggest it would only be then one could one fully assess the increase and decrease of the states presence in the economy as a whole.

As for citizens not liking a big state interfering in their day to day lives and being mildly (maybe a understatement) resentful of it , I can offer someone else's explanation to this problem.

"Like Locke, Rousseau, Jefferson and all the great champions of Liberty that recognised that a paternalist government , based on the benevolence of a ruler who treats his subjects as dependent children, is the greatest conceivable despotism and it destroys all freedom, however well meaning it's intent."

Like any parent , at some point you have to let your children adventure into the big wide world,to make their own mistakes and successes.
I am not saying there shouldn't be a safety net to catch those that need a helping hand to get back onto their feet after a fall , but it should not be away of life and people should be encouraged and have a opportunity to have a second and third go at being successfully independent of the parent.

On the contrary , a state that wants to monitor it citizens forgets the right of privacy of it's citizens from the state and classes them all as possible wrongdoers and by default possible criminals.
Do you have council bin inspectors in your area ?
I don't, but other people do.

As for the last vestiges of the state I can not agree , the state is still there but if the people don't like how it's expanded into their lives then the state should not expect the support from the people for it's activities.


Family breakdown is a serious subject and needs sorting out (as much as any state can help in these matters) , I would have to say I am not qualified to comment on these matters and will have to let others with a better understanding of the problem show the way.


We might not be able to agree on those things above mentioned, but I am sure we can agree (even if it's for different reasons) such things as Royal Mail and Royal Mint not being privatized. I class them as parts of our nations identity and thus should not be decoupled from the state they are identified with.

Thanks for sharing your views and thus allowing me to share mine.

Steve

Hope Newsnight clocked the wave of panic that crossed several faces in The Chamber when Patricia Hewitt MP suggested to The Speaker that they
set up 'Citizens' juries - one for every region' to adjudicate claims!

Michael Martin stopped that one very quickly ...... Perhaps he thought
it had too many connotations of tricoteuses sitting at the guillotine?

Noticed too that The Speaker's statement came just after Department of Work and Pensions questions ..... featuring Tony McNulty MP sitting on the Green Bench alongside Kitty Ussher MP as she promised a consultation paper on housing benefits for low paid workers in London ....... Wonder
if it will include the cost of renovations for professions like nurses?

Don't hold your breath ......

Or second homes for burger-flippers?

thegangofone (#80) "You are talking about brainwashing and not education as you fear what you can't control and education liberates."

If your behaviour is truly representative of such 'liberation', I assert that something has got to change soon to reverse this 'liberation', or the figures I refer to will just continue to worsen. :-(

IN LIGHT OF RECENT AND CURRENT EXPOSEES:

Andrew Neil's Blog 'Taz Rises and Spending Cuts' Tuesday 5 May 2009

At 6:00pm on 05 May 2009, scotsvernacular wrote:

''Ministers still talk in terms of efficiency savings, though everybody knows that would be inadequate'

Efficiency savings must not be overlooked, and are a valid first step, but only if backed up by a willingness to investigate corrupt and incompetent wastefulness, take decisive and fair action to remedy the rot, and positively encourage ethical thinking throughout the public sector. This will set the tenor for positive change.'


TODAY I reiterate my words of last week, and add:


ETHICAL ACTION MUST MOVE US FORWARD

The danger now is that personal scape-goating, vendettas and the like are inevitably raising their heads. It is important that all involved have the courage to face up to this massive problem, admit their behaviour with a distinct note of contrition, co-operate, and enable action to take place, fairly, quickly and efficiently, to remedy the rot, and move forward.

GOVERNMENTS BOTH CENTRAL AND LOCAL, ELECTED AND EMPLOYED EXIST TO SERVE THE PEOPLE AND THE BEST INTERESTS OF SOCIETY - no more, no less - and they would be best advised that they MUST be seen to be adopting an ETHICAL STANCE. (If this means mass resignation, so be it.)

GOOD-GOVERNANCE IS CALLED FOR NOW. [NO EXCUSES, NO WAFFLING, NO SHILLY-SHALLYING.]

It would be a very big mistake to ignore or play-down the strength of feeling on the street AND THE DANGERS OF A MORE EXTREMIST BACKLASH (which is clearly fomenting, and apparent on a number of BBC blogs - the tip of the iceberg).

The current situation is parlous, to say the least, and at worst very dangerous. Who can be trusted to take the lead to move the country out of this perilous mire?

THE PERNICIOUSLY ENGINEERED NEGATIVE IMAGE

Steve-London (#81) "I have to admit I am confused , if one was to assess the size of the state in the economy surly one would also have to include it's expansion period ?"

Yes, but one has to look at quality as well as quantity of staff. The effect has been to reduce the quality of staff and thereby increase the ineffectivity of delivery of public services. That has been a useful tool to help justify progressive privatisation or market-testing. This, I suggest, is what has really been going on. Ask some experienced Civil Servants if you can find any left.

"Like any parent , at some point you have to let your children adventure into the big wide world,to make their own mistakes and successes."

Sadly, through low/skewed birth rates (differential fertility) we have a swelling underclass and denuded upper half of the abilty distribution. Lowish ability is like childishness - impulsivity, inability to plan, hedonism etc. One ends up with more delinquent behaviour even though they are technically adults.

I know I am painting a systematically bleak picture here, but that's the way the numbers seem to fall. We won't reverse this by continuing to go in the direction which we have been led. Even if we start now it will take a lot of effort/time. I don't fancy our chances.

Have you watched the scaremoneging 'Hayek' cartoon?

Andrew Neil's Blog

Tongues are wagging in Westminster

126. At 3:51pm on 11 May 2009, scotssausagedog wrote:

124. wrote,
'They are all guilty, they all have blood on their hands. They have taken their bits of silver, shame on them, shame on them all ........'

In every group there are good 'uns and bad 'uns. Would you dispose of the good 'uns, who undoubtedly do exist in parliament and in local government, whilst eliminating the bad 'uns. What percentage are really bad 'uns? Would you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Have patience and wait for full disclosure, and for honourable resignations, before stirring up even more discontent and hatred.

The good 'uns must be given a chance to come forward and help in sorting this mess out.

If you had your way, parliament would be an empty shell - a vacuum - or do you mean to step into the breach yourself?