Is rugby getting too rough?

It was the most dramatic ending to a rugby match I have ever seen! I'm Welsh, I'm chuffed - but overall, did the Scots really deserve to lose?

First I would like to wish the three injured guys all the very best for the future all three contributed to a match that made me proud to be scottish.

However the pride is certainly tarnished by our lack of controlled aggression and intensity over the last few minutes. A few thoughts come to mind - the recent blog lamenting the refs was proved wholly accurate. Our failure close the game even with 13 men.

thank you Dan Parks you were the real deal yesterday and certainly made the double Lion opposite look poor in comparison.

The hype surrounding the return of Euan Murray was exactly that a pile of hype. I counted him being pinged four times and two resulted in points against. I never saw him touch the ball in the loose. I think he made two tackles. Much for Andy to consider prior to Italy.

but that last ten minutes can we replay it, It just feels wrong !!.

John, When I played Rugby at school(Napoleon was Emperor of France at the time) I dismissed the fears about getting serious injuries( ie the neck as being restricted to the forwards and even then only the front row.) Now the way rugby is going, I would not set foot on a rugby field and I certainly would never allow my loved ones near the game. I love Rugby. I love the sport, the fans and the all round principles of the game but the risk is just too high. Thom Evans did not do anything out of the ordinary and he is a winger and yet in a split second his entire life could have been destroyed.
Sorry if this sounds cowardly and a whine but Footballers etc do not face paralysis. In my opinion this is a serious weakness. I have no answer to this.

Absolutely gutted by the end of the game, was just total madness for 5 minutes. Hopefully the team will learn from this and improve, we can't expect to win rugby matches if we don't hold on to the ball. We can't just hope that our defence can absorb our opposition, we need to control the game like we did in the first half.

We can beat the Italians if we just keep our momentum up for the full 80 minutes. Would like to see Robinson make a couple changes in the team;

Backrow - Thought they were great yesterday and all worked their socks off, however we need to win more ball at the breakdown which we struggled to do in the second half. If Ross Rennie is fit i'd love to see him get a chance against Italy, either off the bench or starting.

Centre - Once again our centres didn't offer much in attack, Lamont wasn't as prominent as he was against France and once again Morrison has a quiet game. Would like to see Grove getting another chance at 12 with Evans at 13, both can defend and would give us a lot more spark going forward.

Back Three - With the injuries that happened yesterday, there is going to be changes at the back. I'd like to see Jim Thompson given a run, he looks class when he plays for Edinburgh and is defiantly one for the future. Danielli has been in good form with Ulster and is probably next in the pecking order, with Lamont on the other wing.

We are improving but now we need to turn the screw and push on to the next level, we have a team that can beat anyone but they need to believe that they are going to.

Hopefully Lamont, Paterson and Evans will all recover fully and be playing again as soon as possible.

A game Scotland should have won ...
I can't believe we weren't "professional enough" to go down with an injury at 24-24 and for someone to come on the pitch with a message to kick it into touch.
Referee Clancy had no control over the scrum, I don't think there was a single properly set scrum - Wales had 6 points from this in the first half and the last 6 scrums Scotland were penalised for every single one.
Are you telling me British Lion Murray has become a liability since then, or is Clancy unfit to referee an International match.
Good luck to the injured lads sounds like Thom Evans had a lucky escape

I'm Welsh and I truly felt for the Scots yesterday, they blasted us off the park in the first half - every time they carried the ball they seemed to drive the tackler backwards whilst when they were in defence it was the opposite. A perfect example being a certain flanker's try!

Those injuries are a real blow as I thought Scotland looked more than capable of winning any of their remaining fixtures. The Italy game may be a Wooden Spoon decider (although that's too early to call) but there should be no disrespect attached to that as both teams have really upped their game this year. I don't really see how injuries can be prevented without a weight limit for each position, and how that would work in reality I'm not sure.

Wales obviously have the players - when they got their hands on the ball and played what I would call rugby, in the England game and yesterday, then they've looked truly dangerous. However, over the course of the whole game I think we were second best by some margin. I'm wondering if we've actually got a bit worse every year that Gatland has been in charge! To be fair, Warren made a rod for his own back by winning a Grand Slam in his first year. Seriously though, I hope Wales get it together as we could be in with a shout of the title if we beat France. If we lose then the Italy match might just become the spooner...

I would like to add that I am extremely relieved to hear that Thom Evans' injuries, although serious, are neither life-threatening or will result in permanent disability. I would love to see him back playing one day. My sympathies and wishes for speedy recoveries to Chris Paterson and Rory Lamont also.
In response to John's question, I don't think rugby is getting too tough - the most serious (head and neck) injuries are thankfully few and far between. All pro rugby players, regardless of size, are superbly conditioned and are prepared for most eventualities on the pitch. Tackling above the shoulder area is illegal and it seems to me that many of the most serious injuries result from seemingly innocuous contact, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or blatantly dangerous foul play - all of which have been present in rugby for years. Thom Evans collided with Lee Byrne's stomach and groin area and it looked as if his head was bent forward awkwardly, causing the injury. I remember Gwyn Jones suffering a horrific neck injury (in a ruck, I think) years ago, Ieuan Evans suffering a sickening leg injury during a tackle and Simon Easterby being laid out at Twickenham against Wasps (although it turned out to be less serious than it looked at the time). There are many other examples. Regarding foul play, I was glad to see the French no 11 Palisson limping off the field yesterday - if Flannery had really connected with that kick, it could have ended up with him being stretchered off with a very serious injury. Remember also Bakkies Botha taking out Adam Jones during the 2nd test this summer.
Rugby players know what dangers could lie ahead every time they take to the pitch and I think if the rules were changed to try to make rugby less dangerous or 'tough', then serious injuries would still occur. It's the nature of this fascinating, collision-based game where everyone, regardless of size and shape, can take part - at their own risk.

I Think Nikki Walker should be recalled for Scotland, He has been playing superbly for the Ospreys this season and I am sure he can do well for you.

Scotland did deserve to lose, they couldnt keep up their defence in the second half and made silly mistake just as Wales did last week. All this feeling sorry for Scotland is doing my head in. Wales played rubbish in the first half and scotland couldnt keep up defence in the second, simple as that!

Although I am a Scotland fan I have to say that Scotland DID deserve to lose the game.
I find it very tedious that so many supporters feel that they somehow 'deserved' to win simply becuase they played well for an hour. They showed an embarrassing lack of composure and no belief in their ability to finish the game off. You could see it the eyes of the players before the start of the second half. Most Scotland supporters seem to think that such a capitulation is acceptable because they 'put up a good fight' so they can 'return to Scotland with their heads held high'. Please. They completely fell to bits and let all their supporters down. There was no leadership on the field despite both captains being on the pitch at the same time - it was Blair and Cusiter who both made horrific individual errors in the last 5 mins of the game. No doubt the Scottish coaching staff and elements within the media will use the injuries to key players as an excuse for the defeat. The team simply gave up, froze, choked and stopped playing. A shameful (and I must say very Scottish) defeat.

the game was lost by not finding touch with the penalty - terrible. can't expect to win close games when mistakes like that are made in the last 5 minutes. what a shame though because scotland had played some great stuff. john barclay was incredible - completely outplayed williams. England will not be looking forward to playing scotland at murrayfield in a few weeks time.

hopefully the injured players will make a full recovery.

Yet again, it's a failure to do the basics that cost Scotland.

With regards to the injuries, it's a physical game, and unless we want to turn it into football (soccer)and stop all contact, we have to accept that injuries happen. The IRB are doing a good job of stamping out serious foul play and injuries like yesterday are just one of these things. While the pros are bigger and fitter than ever, most club players are no different than they were years ago (allowing for the fact that the human race is getting bigger). Unlike Ilikecake 111, I would (and do) encourage my son to play.

I all the guys hurt yesterday make a speedy recovery and are soon back on the pitch.

Thank you RowanMoobs, i think you may have been a bit too harsh there tho lol. Scotland have come miles since Andy Robinson has been there. They seem more confident and the rugby being played is great to watch. Progress can clearly be seen and i wish them all the best for the rest of the Six Nations.

I just want to cry, 24hrs later I can't believe what happened. Dan Parks, for the first time I can, remember deserved his shirt yesterday, very Rutherford-esque the way he controlled the whole game.

Lee Byrne needs cited for the late hit on Thom Evans, pure and simple, he had already been tackled and was down. I hope Thom recovers quickly.

Scotland didn't deserve to lose that game and the first 70 minutes of the game they were magnificent.

I'm so angry with Scotland. Did they not watch how England nearly lost to Wales a week ago in EXACTLY the same circumstances? When Wales need to score tries to win the match at the death, you must get the ball off the field when kicking. When Scotland missed touch from the penalty in their own half, I just couldn't believe it. Even if the ball only goes ten metres, get it off the field. They had a 100% record in the lineout, so would likely have secured their own ball. They allowed Wales to win the match because they gave them momentum, which Wales hadn't created. The yellow card was also ridiculous. Wales had slow ball near the half-way line. There was no threat. Rant over.
Hope that the injured guys get better soon!

Well, its horrible way to lose a match but it was self inflicted. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I can't believe the last 10 mins. Credit to Wales, they thru the kitchen sink at Scotland. Clearly the players were dead on their feet at the end. What Blair was thinking about with the restart I'll never know, he should have taken the draw and moved on.... Q marks over the Cusiter captaincy ? Mind you I swear there was a forward pass to Halfpenny in that move for the try

On the plus we played very well for an hour and to be frank the performance was a darned sight better than those of previous seasons. We had some rugby to cheer for once but decision making cost us crucial times. Parks played very well but if I'm critical I think there were one or 2 moments in the 2nd half when he kicked away when we should maybe have played a bit of posession rugby after being under the cosh for so long.

Surely Lawson will be dropped for his part.

Hopefully we can harness that hurt for the next match.

Hi - for kick off... all best wishes to our three injured players - especially Thom Evans - I'm a paraplegic and acutely understand how close he may have been to something far more serious (as I understand it) - a swift recovery Thom, Chris and Rory.

With regard to the posting from "DG", isn't it a very sad reflection on the game when someone can publish thoughts that fly in the face of the ethos of rugby, when he/she (hiding behind intials, note) states: "I can't believe we weren't "professional enough" to go down with an injury at 24-24 and for someone to come on the pitch with a message to kick it into touch."

Could you hear Bill McLaren saying something akin to that? NO. Please, although I cannot recall being so gutted at losing a match before, let's keep that sort of thinking out of the game!

We don't want to re-shape the ball do we?!

Scotland were dominant for 60/70 minutes, but i'm getting a bit fed hearing the majority of Scottish supporters saying they didn't deserve to lose.

I'm sorry guys, but the game is an 80 minute one and points scored with the last play count as much as any other. Wales only played briefly but took full advantage of opportunities/mistakes and punished an ill-disciplined and tired Scotland team.

On the positive side for Scotland they looked like they had a sound game plan for the first time I can remember and should trouble all future opponents.

As for Wales much more is required - clearly have bags of talent, especially in the backs but can't harness it. Anybody have any ideas why this is?

The injuries are a dreadful blow for the players and the team. I wish them all a speedy recovery. Rory Lamont has no luck in dark blue, it's a big loss when you think all three would be competing for a spot on the wing. We are fortunate that we have Danielli and Southwell to come in but we are getting stretched now.

Injuries aside, I think we are playing some good rugby. I think we need to accept that Dickinson needs to be an impact sub and not a starter as we are getting taken to bits in the scrum. I'd like to see Low groomed at loosehead so that we have him as an option to play on either side. I don't think we are far away from making some big progress if we can compete a little more effectively at the breakdown.

One further point (again please comment as I am not 100% sure) - if Blair had put the ball straight into touch from the kick off would this have not been a penalty if the referee had deemed it intentional? And therefore there would still have been a final play?

Rugby was the winner yesterday.Look at match stats these clearly indicated that Wales where the team who wanted to keep ball in hand and not kick possession away.Credit tho to the scots back row who put Martin Williams in the shade.Hope the injury to Evans isnt as bad as it sounds.Lets hope for the sake of the game that incisive handling and not the slowing down of opposition ball is the winner.

Scotland played for 80 minutes , Wales for 81 . If your captain(s) suddenly take it into their heads that 13 players are going to regain possession from a kick-off and score against 15 , then no amount of 'professionalism' and 'messages' will save you . The team that makes the fewest errors will win this tournament , and dear me , there's only one team in it at the moment. Last year's Lions' tour has crippled the home nations , and a lot of players are still carrying physical scars .
It used to be said that rugby players were more intelligent than their football counterparts. I shudder to think who is less cerebral than
Scott Lawson, Phil Godman or Andy Powell . Warren Gatland and Andy Robinson , perhaps ? The people who appointed them ?
Fathers used to dream about their boys playing for Wales . I don't want my sons playing glorified Rollerball. Football has become safer, because its a world game. Rugby is still an old-boys club at an administrative level, and the game's become an un-refereeable quagmire.
Spectacle, yes . Safe , questionable.

1)I am very surprised if the game can be ended from a restart by kicking straight into touch. I do not know the current laws but would be interested to know if anyone has checked that.

2) Scotland's late capitulation has to be put into perspective. It would be a test for any team's defensive organisation to play half the match with a scrum half playing on the wing, albeit as streetwise a one as Blair is and with the injuries Scotland took. Then remember Max Evans is playing after he has just seen his brother strechered off with potenially very serious neck injury - just think about that - I applaud him for being prepared to play on at all.
Its grossly unfair to say you could see it on Scotland's faces at half time because they were still tremendous for the first 20 + minutes of the second half.

I am sure Scotlands management and player, whatever they say publcly, will not be regarding themselves as unlucky at all. They will know they should have closed that game out and will be punishing themselves for it.

But, they are a side who have been struggling for a few years now and are not streetwise yet and have not experienced being in that situation too many times. They will learn from that and I'll bet my house they don't make that mistake again in a hurry.

For me, although that result was so disappointing (and believe me the labrador disappeared from the room and didn't dare come back anywhere near me for an hour after the match!) the positives massively outweighed the negatives from this game for Scotland even allowing for all the injuries, and although they won, I believe Wales will go away with hell of alot more worries than Scotland.

There have been massive improvements and progress under AR and his coaching team for which they should take great credit and Scotland are starting to offer genuine penetration and threat in attack and look to have a self belief about them. Although they will miss the injured players (I think Rory Lamont miht be the man they miss most) I think that their strength is in their spirit and growing self belief as a unit rather than depending on a few stars and they have promising players like Groves & Danielli to come in so I think it is an exciting and positive time for Scottish rugby.
The back row was superb, the commitment was fantastic and I think once they start making linebreaks and threatening on a regular basis the confidence will come and they will score more tries.

Dan must have cemented his spot at fly half after that stormer,(He may not be a Barry John, but he is a composed and accomplished player) so let's get off his back and give him some encouragement. I would be inclined to bring Ruraigh Jackson into the squad and be giving him some gametime in the last 20 mins now and build for the future. I hope and believe that AR will be positive and attacking with his selections and in the longterm the squad will benefit in confidence and result from it.

As I mentioned in the previous log after the game what is happening at scrumtime is a serious concern for rugby. from my armchair I did not think the referee was up to the job and I thought in that are Scotland got the worst of him. I do not know the answer to this problem, but we MUST fin a way because for me it is such an important feature of the game we all know and love and we cannot afford for it to be lost or become like a rugby league uncontested affair.

John,
I agree with you about teh level of injuries becoming unacceptably high ( yeah that will shock you considering my views about rucking!!) and is something we must address as I am sure we can. I have had some experience with performance horss including racehorses and the pattern is similar - bigger and faster means the stresses are higher and the joints and ligaments are not designed to take the bigger impacts.

I am sure subtle law changes and improved training and conditioning techniques will help to alleviate this problem, but not eliminate it. The game has always been dangerous and always will be - it is a debate that will live as long as the game does, but if you eliminate all risk it will no longer be the sport we know and love and it will not be the test of players' character, courge as well as their raw skill that it is.

Well done Scotland, great game Dan parks - pleased for you, and best wishes to the injured players and all their connections. Take heart and confidence and carry on the great work and progress!
I'll B.... off now 'cos J.B. will be teling me to get my own blog as he did Stormy69!!??!!

Does anyone know where I can see anymore footage on this alledged trip? The only person who hasn't commented on this is Lee Byrne.

As for injuries, its a contact sport, these thing happen. I broke my leg twice. No-one fault just one of those thing.

Watched the game again, and still con't believe we lost it. Threw it away. A few dodgy ref decisions. Sure the ball was forward to Halfpenny.

John - Glad to hear the news that all three players should make a full recovery. I hope and pray Thom makes a full recovery and that there is no long lasting damage. Hope Patterson and Lamont also have speedy recoveries.

Being left with the question "if only" is part and parcel of following Scottish sport. As you note in your blog, if only the pass to Brown (who I thought played very well) had gone backwards, if only Dan's drop goal had gone over, if only we'd kicked the ball out.

While these were all key elements to the game, for me the turning point was Williams catching the cross field kick just about on his own try line, beating Brown and ? (I can't remember who the other Scottish player was).

I agree with the above comments that the ref struggled with the scrum - I think he was mentally tossing a coin to decide who got the resultant penalty. But we cannot and should not blame the ref, we had enough ball, we had the opportunities.

The issue of "sorting the scrum out" seems to be as imponderable as the question you raise over safety. Limiting size or the weight of players does not seem workable, and in each generation of the game there has been serious injury and a degree of risk.

Like others who've commented I still feel gutted over the result, but I also feel gutted for the guys who now through injury cannot contribute on-field to the rest of this six nations.

Am very thankful that all three injured players are not deemed to be serious. I hope they all make a speedy and complete recovery.
To the game.....Scotland in my mind were immense. Dan Parks has laid down a marker and should be given the 10 slot for next three games at least. Back row were good but must be knackered. Think AR must change scrum half during the game - Cusiter looked knackered and a little lost towards the end. Blair should have kicked out to stop game (need a rules doc to confirm as to whether this would have been allowed) The ref should have sorted the scrum out in the first 10 minutes - it was a mess. I think we have the strengh in depth to bring in some new players who are all playing well for their clubs - Southwell, Danelli, Grove, to name but three and I think he must bring in Jackson to get some game time.
I would also question Lee Byrne's "dive". I have seen the footage 3/4 times now and from different angles and whilst there was contact it did not merit the spreadeagled fall that followed it. Remember that it was the same player involved in the 16 on the pitch fiasco. I wonder whether the professional football outlook (penalty dives, niggles, shirt pulling etc) is now encroaching into rugby - I hope not but I suspect it is.
AR is slowly building a teamn that believes they can win every game; a team that believes it can attack and play exciting rugby and a team that will be very well supported. Roll on the next three games. However, it was absolutely heartbreaking.

I really have to disagree with what seems to be the common consensus that Scotland were the outstanding team and were unlucky to lose the game.
They were gifted two tries by dreadful welsh defence, and a penalty early in the second half by a poor Welsh decision to run the ball from under their own posts. Even so they still could not win the game.
Wales looked threatening with ball in hand, and should have with a little more composure, scored one or two tries in the first half.
Scotland couldn't withstand the pressure when Wales played with pace. Did nobody else notice that every time Wales entered the Scottish half and put them under pressure, they were more than happy to give away a penalty by immediately killing the ball to prevent the Welsh from scoring a try? The referee should have shown a yellow card much earlier in the game, to prevent this cynical tactic.
Scotland can point the finger at the referee, or an alledged dive by Lee Byrne, but in reality, like England last week,they are a very average side and if they had won the game it would have been down to Welsh errors rather than any outstanding rugby that they seem to think they played.
One more and more important point, I wish a speedy recovery to the injured Scotland players, nobody likes to see a fellow player stretchered from a field in what is essentially just a game.

In response to my own question above and to satisfy my own curiosity (and apologies for being a bit of a geek) I have had a quick look at the IRB rules:

Any side/player intentionally breaking one of the rules should be penalised at the point where the infringement took place. Given the rules on kick offs states the ball must land in play, I think Scotland would have been penalised for booting it out intentionally.

ac jeffrey :
I stand corrected, I wish that we all had your Corinthian spirit, however I think if there is only one team playing to the spirit of the amateur game then they will always struggle.
I wasn't suggesting blood capsules or anything like that but at 13 men, with at least 2 others struggling with injury, and given the events of the last 5 minutes, a cool head from the touchline suggesting an honourable draw might have been an idea.
Most posters on blogs adopt pseudonyms - you are in the minority here.
DJ Graham

A quick "heads up" for acjeffrey: as a borderer Bill McLaren was well aware of all the less than honourable goings-on on a rugby pitch, ranging from props with ankle injuries to have a rest before the next phase of play, Ian McLaughlin's "energy sapping activity" as he laid into some poor Englishman at the bottom of a Murrayfield ruck all the way through to biting and eye gouging the "dark arts of the front row". Let us not get all misty eyed about how rugby used to be. I can remember the days when the officials did not know most of the laws, could not keep up with play and usually gave the wrong decision anyway. The acclaimed All Blacks used lifting in the lineout before it was legal and all French international players were full time professionals in an amateur game.The difference now is that coaches and players cheat because of the financial imperative whereas years ago they used to cheat for free.
PS Remember Mike Burton? For those with short memories give him a "google"

1. Terrible thumps for the three lads and thank goodness that they all face a decent prognosis.

2. I think our season will struggle to go anywhere good as these defeats will have sapped momentum, morale and some of our best players.

3. We used to play a good 40 or 50 mins then start to go off the rails. We've extended it but not yet close enough to the 80. So much was good yesterday....but still no cigar.

4. Mr Beattie - you show admirable self-restraint in (not) highlighting the antics of your son as he goes a ramapaging around the paddock. You should be chuffed to bits with his last 2 games!

Scotland played OK for 70 minutes; they weren't awesome by any means.

Wales were appalling for 70 minutes.

The referee was consistently "average" - oh, alright, he was sometimes quite bad (especially with his inability to control the scrum - at one point almost whining to players "what do I have to do?")

The Scottish gameplan at the breakdown was ultimately their undoing - although the idea was right, the sometimes illegal slowing down of Welsh ball lead to the ref losing patience and the bin.

Lee Byrne was tripped - seen it several times and there's no doubt that a bloke running at that speed catching a leg is going to go sprawling. I don't believe it was intentional though - so penalty, but no card.

Ref was right to allow the kick-off - conversion happened within normal time and you can't allow teams to take their time over a kick-off to run the clock down. Scotland could have been "cuter" - without cheating - about the kick-off though.

All in all, wasn't really a great game of rugby, but it sure was exciting!

The scrum was a mess and Wales were responsible, the referee was ver poor in this area. However, Scotland should have closed the match out. As for the tiem thing, I find it strange that Wales kicked the pnalty becuse they were told by the referee that there was time for another attack, but everyone else has made the point that time was up and had the ball gone dead from the restart (allowing that it happened legally) the the game would have been over? What would Wales have done ahd they been told that the next move was to be the last? Would they have still kiicked the penalty or gone for the try?

NB Want to remove some of the danger, get rid of subs. It encourages the use of monster players who really can't last 80 minutes. Get back to replacements only allowed after a doctor has certified aplyer cannot continue and the average weights of international players will drop by at least 10 kilos.

And Byrne should be cited for what was a majopr dive, a sindeed should Monye for England today, that was truly pathetic.

We lost in the second half because the kicking game that worked so well in the first half kind of disappeared. I felt Cusiter was taking too much responsibility with his box kicks, if you've got Dan Parks why not use him? The box kicks ended up just handing possession back to Wales and put Scotland under more pressure.

Now Scotland need a good win against Italy to build upon the performance of the first 70 yesterday in preperation for England at home.

Scotland didn't deserve to lose. i applaud any team that goes for a win rather than a draw but Alan Wyn Jones deserves a ban for his no arm shoulder challenge on Thom Evans that nearly paralised him and Lee Byrne took a theatrical dive that makes Didier Drogba looks stable on his feet. International rugby players can almost run in to a brick wall, keep their feet and carry on so how a slight clip sent the Lions first choice fullback sprawling is beyond me. Scotland are no saints but diving on kick chases like Ugo Monya did twice today is just embarrasing.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

Sorry, but Scotland DID deserve to lose this match. Yet again, because of schoolboy errors, we are where we are destined to be-at or near the bottom of the table. When will we learn to win? Any team that cannot hold that size of lead with a few minutes to go won't ever win a tournament, just maybe the odd game in 5.
I'm afraid this lack of killer-instinct (prevalent in all Scottish sporting sides) will always haunt us. We are so used to being the under-dog and the plucky-but-punching-over-our-weight jocks with a sense of humour that we can't deliver the knockout punch!
This was highlighted for me when 3 minutes into the second half Lamont and Brown cocked up a certain try-scoring move. The Welsh had the same sort of chance later on and took it. Game over.
You can cry all you want about the referee, the clock, the alleged trip by Godman, but the fact is, as a nation we are 3rd rate sporting folk (except for the Hoy man- a cyclist for goodness sake), and our "happy to be loser" mentality is acting like an anchor.
We might beat the Italians, but at a push-get used to it.

Is rugby getting too rough?

HAVE A DAY OFF!!!

2 Questions:

(1) Why did the referee not blow the final whistle after the Wales penalty had tied the scores at 24 - 24 ? Before the restart kick was taken the clock showed 80 minutes had elapsed.

(2) If Scotland have kicked the restart kick dead would the referee not have awarded Wales the put-in at a scrum on halfway ?

There have been conflicting views in the press about these issues.

A question:

Will Powell finally be dropped now? Surely...another distinctly average(/poor) performance (including kicking the ball...why do forwards who cant kick try to? it has always confused me!) then getting trolleyed and joy-riding on a golf-cart...? Seriously...he HAS to be dropped! Distinct lad points to the copper who nicked him though...can u imagine trying to ask a monster like Powell to "blow on that please?" what a legend!

Glad that a positive(-ish) prognosis has come back for all the injured Sctos. I hopoe very much to see them all playing again soon! (Of course, I'm going to be happy just to see Thom Evans play AGAIN, don't particularly care when!)

Firstly I'm glad Thom Evans is 'okay'.

Secondly I'd like to thank the Welsh lads for chipping in here with some very gentlemanly and sporting comments. That's what the game is all about and Lord help us if we ever lose a firm grasp on that tradition.

Rugby is not getting too rough nowadays.

Modern players are very athletic and muscular. On balance they can give and take as much as they ever did. It's all relative.

Medical care advances have enabled many a playing career to resume again nowadays where before serious injury would have resulted in the hanging up of boots for good.

Perhaps the professional gymnasium element seems to be slightly out of synch with desired all-round footballing skills. There's a slight imbalance to be corrected there. Props don't dance like wingers, but they ought to be able to pass just as well. Wingers don't bulldoze like props, but need to be able to hold their own in a bruisefest.

The Wales - Scotland game was exceptional by any stretch of the imagination. Very rare and unconventional circumstances. Regarding the roughness/physicality of the encounter, Scotland simply didn't have the rub of the green that day. There was no real malice whatsoever on the Welsh part. The injury count could have gone either way.

The same can't quite be said of the South Africans during the recent Lions test JB mentioned. The Bokkies have a streetwise meanstreak a mile long and they also happen to be the dominant nation in world rugby. No surprises there. Just an unfortunate lack of the Corinthian spirit. And an equally unfortunate inability of the authorities to address the matter.

Rough and tumble sporting masculinity will always be a cornerstone of the game we love. Dishonesty and outright thuggery need to be kicked off a cliff and left to the seagulls.

The scrums are getting daft. They slow the game up so much and the only thing worse than refereeing the shenanigans is paying to watch them.

Nice point made by Hoppolocos about the 'monster' factor. Fascinating and altogether pertinent. If a professional player isn't fit enough to go at it hammer and tongs for less than an hour and a half with a decent breather in between then one can but wonder at where that is all leading to? Nowhere worthwhile would be my bet.

I was absolutely gutted but still very, very proud.

I am sickened by the injuries though, attrition will be the death of the game.

I worry that with 3 of our best players gone, including our one and only centurion, we will struggle to win again this campaign, and it should surely have been otherwise. We ran France close, and should have beaten Wales. With a fully fit squad, I could see us winning the remaining fixtures.

Devastated, not just for Scotland, but for the players, especially the injured Evans, Patterson and Lamont, as well as the shellshocked Parks and Robinson. When a coach who has won English Premiership league and cup doubles, a Heineken Cup, a Six Nations Grand Slam and a World Cup, says that he's never known a game like it then you know something incredible has occured.

BTW I have to say the extended highlights on the BBC are still pretty poor, no replays or close ups on Byrne's dive, the most contentious point of the game. If Robinson and Godman insist he dived, them I'm doubly disgusted.

The one bright light is that there is a World Cup in 2011 and with a fully fit squad, and Robinson at the helm, we can do very well indeed.

We had as good a chance to beat the French at Murrayfield as we ever had. We blew it.

We also had as good a chance to beat the Welsh in Cardiff as we ever had. Then we blew it again. And how.

We have zero points to show for our gutsy and improving endeavours thus far. Look at the Auld Enemy by comparison. 2 lucky and stilted wins from two very challenging games. Full points so far and building up a useful head of steam for the remaining fixtures. Now there're the benefits of a winning mentality for you.

We can take great heart from our improvements. The rest of the 6 Nations should be about attacking with telling penetration, defending like demons and getting ourselves savvy with a ruthless winning mentality.

First of all, best wishes to the Scottish players that were injured against Wales and hope they get well as soon as possible.
I think the game was a credit to both teams and I'd like to see people get behind their countries a bit more!! Both teams played well at points in the game and both teams made mistakes. Sometimes we forget that these games are played by humans which means that mistakes happen and people have to go with the flow, not moan about mistakes made.
Of course we dont want to see our team make mistakes but it will happen so is there really that much point moaning about it? Of course some mistakes are more silly than others, but theyr still going to happen. If a rugby match went by with every player doing everything right then the game would finish 0-0... every tackle would be made and no one would give up any penalties.
Back to Wales and Scotland. I believe Wales can play a lot better than they are at the moment but give them credit - they got the job done this weekend when not playing at their best. And Scotlands team look stronger than it has done for a good few years and they came very close on saturday - the signs are good and everyone supporting them should get behind them for the next match, comments about them throwing away saturdays match due to mistakes wont help anyone.
This years 6 nations looks real exciting, anyone can beat anyone and while I think france may win this year, theyv still got 3 matches against teams very capable of beating them.

And regarding rugby being too rough with players getting bigger and bigger... players have been getting injured playing rugby for decades and decades. It is true that the players are bigger nowadays, meaning they can inflict more damage during the game from normal tackles etc, but it also means that when on the receiving end of those tackles etc the players are in better physical condition to cope with the hit. Rugby is rugby, its a tough sport but we all know that and injuries are part of the sport, same as they are part of every other sport.
It is always horrible when serious injuries happen and I do hope that the 3 scottish players from saturday get well soon.

Along with everyone else I wish Evans, Paterson and Lamont a speedy recovery.

Cam - Evans injury was caused by compression of the neck into Byrne's groin and abdomen. There are images online that show this.

As for the "trip"

Initially Phil Godman said there was no contact and Andy Robinson said he "felt" Byrne dived. When the replay showed that there was clearly contact Godman changed his story to "yes there was contact but he milked it" and proclaimed his own innocence.

I've no doubt Godman didn't intend to trip Byrne but there are stills online that show Godman's left arm pushed out towards Byrne (not a position where you attempt to block a high chip) providing at least circumstantial evidence that he intended to partially block Byrne. Penalty.

Godmans left foot then knocks Byrnes lead foot as he's about to put his weight on it leaving gravity to take it's course.

Gutted likewise but what surprised me was the bench. I know the sequence of injuries was unfortunate even by modern standards but where were Hugo Southwell and Simon Danielle, both playing well. Hugo's great left boot would have kept them pinned back in their half and the team would have kept shape in the last hectic 20 minutes albeit with 14 men.

Anyway let's look at the positives in the first half and another dire England performance, roll on the Calcutta Cup!

Not sure if this is the correct forum but decided I must post a comment.......................is it me? Was it the SRFU or the BBC that decided to tell us at half-time that Thom Evans had a leg injury? Please don't insult our intelligence!! It was obvious from the collision that it was a neck/back problem and was serious. The other giveaway was the immobilisation before he was put on the stretcher with oxygen being administered. If either body wanted to spare the sensibilities of the non-rugby watching viewers just tell us he had a neck injury and that they would give us further details when they were available!

An insightful blog as always John. I always enjoy reading your musings as you tend to make more sense than many of the other 'bloggers' on this site.

In regard to player injuries, I strongly disagree that it is to do with players getting bigger and stronger and rather point the finger at the inherent use of padding by all the top players these days.

I played in the days when the only time you were allowed to wear padding was if you were carrying an injury that meant you had been medically advised that you need the pad.

These days, we seem to be getting closer to American Football all the time in the increasing use of padding (or body armour). American Football has taken this to the extreme and they get a lot more very serious injuries in their game as a result of it.

My answer would be to get rid of the padding element from the game. Wearing a massive amount of padding just makes the player feel almost invincible and encourages a player to make far more powerful and, dare I say it, reckless hits or tackles. If you look at Jonny Wilkinson (for example) when he is on the pitch, he has so much padding on around his shoulders that he looks twice the size he actually is. It is no coincidence that Wilkinson has been feted for his amazing tackling prowess (for an outside half), yet has been afflicted with constant shoulder injuries throughout his career. It is not hard to put two and two together when you think about that.

If a player has no padding to protect him, then he will think twice before launching himself like an exocet missile into the opposition. That's the way to bring down the injury count (ironically), stop this culture of being allowed to pad-up for the game.

Taking away the padding, then it simply becomes man-on-man and individual strength. No more sense of false security that because you are padded up then it aint gonna hurt so much because you have protection.

The very best wishes to Evans, Lamont and Patterson in making full recoveries and coming back to this wonderful game called rugby. Nobody likes to see a player seriously injured and the one thing we have in this rugby fraternity is respect and frienship toward the opposition. Knock ten bells out of each other on the pitch, but once that final whistle goes, then it's back to the bar for a friendly pint, banter and exchanging of 'war-wounds'. No other sport as physical as rugby (both codes actually) can claim such camaderie between opposing teams and supporters alike.

Congratulations Scotland on a great effort. As a Welshman, I had all but given the game up as lost with 7 minutes to go. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected the amazing finish that we witnessed to the game.

As regards all the disparaging comments toward the referee - George Clancy. Let's not forget that he can only give decisions based on what he sees and often those decisions have to made on a split-second incident. In days past, before video refs, we can all recall tries being awarded that later replays showed not to be tries. Often those 'non-tries' decided outcomes of the games. Unfortunately, for the sake of continuity of the game, the ref can only ask the video ref for decisions when a try is involved. He cannot consult the video ref for acts of foul play. That job is taken care of by the citing comissioner. In these days of multiple camera angles, it is very rare for an act of foul play (that has not been seen by the ref) not to be picked up by the citing commisioner. That means that rugby is, in general, a far cleaner game as a result.

Games are won and lost on the decisions of referees, and they are just as fallible as the rest of us. They do not have the benefit of different angle replays (for anything other than try-scoring questions) and simply have to make the decision on what they see (aided when appropriate by the touch-judge).

A lot of vitriol has been directed at Lee Byrne and whether or not he dived. Well, all I can say is the video shows there was clearly contact to his leg from Phil Godman. Whether that was intentional or not is a moot point. The fact is that when you are running at speed then it does not take a massive amount of contact with the lower leg to bring that player down. We have all seen the effect of even the slightest ankle tap on players who seem destined to score tries but are brought down by that slightest of touches. I don't believe that Godman intentionally tripped Byrne (he was in the air after all), but contact was made and Byrne (at full tilt) went down as a result. The referee saw that incident in a split second and I doubt he fully realised Godman was still in the air when contact was made. He was not able to view replays of the incident (as we were). So he gave a penalty. I thought it a little harsh that Godman got sent off, but the ref gave it as he saw it. End of.

Best of luck Scotland. That is the best performance we have seen you play against us in many a year. You were the better side for the majority of the game.

I, like most of Wales, will now be praying that Gatland comes to his senses and drops Cooper and Gareth Williams from the team for the next match against France. Cooper was a liability in both this and the game against England. The same can be said for Gareth Williams. A hooker who cannot hit his man at the lineout, regardless of how good he might be in other facets of play, is no good to any team.

Hopefully, Scotland's performance against us, the problems they posed, and how close they came to winning the game, will finally sting Wales and it's management into changing attitudes toward the game and see us playing back to our strengths. The Wales we are seeing this season is not the Wales we all know and love. Let's see a speedy return to the attacking intent that brought us the last Grand Slam and not the godawful aerial ping-pong still blighting this wonderful game.

We didn't deserve to win, Scotland were the better team and were robbed by a very poor decision by the referee. There may have been some contact between Godman and Byrne but no way was it a card or a penalty.

Would also like to wish Chris Paterson and Thom Evans a full and speedy recovery.

John,
There can be no doubt that serious injuries are becoming more common in the game and I fear it may only be a matter of time before somebody suffers an horrific injury that could mean paralysis or worse. The players are now so big and strong that you have to wonder what can be done. One can only imagine what might have happened to Thom Evans had it been a 2nd XV game at Mansfield Park or Bridgehaugh.

On another note. I haven't been to Cardiff for a home international since 1996 when Scotland were flying and going for a Grand Slam. Welsh rugby was in the doledrums to say the least. Scotland won by two points and I recall our captain, Rob Wainwright saying he had witnessed the re-birth of Welsh rugby. I honestly see a similarity between the Wales of that day and the position we currently find ourselves in now. To say I was upset on Saturday evening was an understatement but if you think where we have been for the last decade there is much to be positive about. Scottish rugby is on a the road again and while we may find it difficult for the rest of this campaign there is undoubtedly a lot to be positive about.
Finally, the negative comments addressed to Ewan Murray's performance are unfair. The sad fact is that George Clancy is not alone in being unable to referee the scrum. Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a game with a high number of decent scrums. The IRB have to look at this because it is fast becoming a farcical situation. Allow the players to scrummage and make it a contest again!

Rugby may indeed be getting too rough, especially for poor old Lee Byrne - from flicking his foot out to kick Phil Godman, old Byrne acted like he'd been shot in the guts with a cannon!

Surprised we're not making more of Byrne's dive, esp following the Irish crusade v Thierry Henry's cheating. Pivotal point in the match, even ignoring S Lawson's yellow, Brown and R Lamont's inability to leap higher than Shane Williams, Cusiter missing touch, Blair not kicking the final restart into touch etc.

As Godman was in the air and didn't move - unless we give him credit for being able to fly - when Byrne kicked out at him, it was clear that the only intentional contact was made by Byrne on Godman, followed with a beautiful swan dive and roll around the turf. Obstruction is all about intent, and Godman showed no intent to hit Byrne. The ref's decision, and current Welsh bristling implies the attacking player has to immediately go invisible in such situations.

Anyway, bar that bit of cheating turning the game, we lost our way in the second half and stopped playing positive rugby, with Cusiter opting to dilly dally at the base of rucks before putting poor box kicks up. A real shame but another good step forward for Andy Robinson in changing our play - three winnable games coming up!

A few thoughts after a day or so to get over it all….. Apologies in advance for a very long post.

To my eye the turning point in the game was Sean Lamont’s wild forward pass when all he had to do was deliver the ball legally to Kelly Brown. A try then would have made the score at least 26-9 (even assuming Parks missed the conversion) and I’m not sure Wales would have come back from that kind of deficit. I know a lot happened after that but Wales began playing with a bit of belief after that let off- I said to my wife the moment the ball left Lamont’s hand that I had a horrible feeling I’d just seen Scotland throw the game away.

Also, while Dan Parks had by far the best game he’s ever had in a Scotland shirt I felt he vanished a bit in the last twenty minutes (had he picked up a knock?) and I did wonder why he opted for a cross kick when he did rather than going through a couple more phases to see if a try near the posts was on (great catch by Shane Williams, though, given the pressure he was under).

The ref was scandalously bad and completely inconsistent on the breakdown, where in the last fifteen minutes or so he suddenly began penalising Scotland for offsides at the ruck and ball killing which he’d allowed both sides to get away with to their hearts content earlier in the game. He more or less gave up refereeing the scrum in the second half with the predictable result that it became a shambles (though it must be a worry for Scotland that the scrum has been a shambles in both their games while the scrums in the other two games of this round on the 6N have gone pretty well- it can’t just be down to the refs….)

I have to say I thought the coverage of the crazy last five minutes was very poor- I didn’t know for sure until well into yesterday that Godman’s card was red, not yellow, as the camera never picked up the award, excitable yappings of “red card” from what sounded like Jonathan Davies in the commentary box were easily dismissed as the usual one-eyed Cambrian hysteria from that source and the post match interviews were still talking about a “sin binning”. I’d also have expected the “trip” on Byrne to be replayed in slow motion from 25 different angles immediately after the game- the fact that it wasn’t confirmed my (English) wife in her instinctive reaction from the live play that Byrne took a dive and the BBC was covering up for the ref’s error. Given the diving we saw the following day from Monye (and indeed Borthwick’s attempt to talk the ref into sending Castrogiovanni off), it is clearly no longer credible to claim that “gamesmanship” of this kind is not to be found in rugby….

I’m not sure I’d go as far as suggesting Byrne “dived” in the classic football sense of that term, though my feeling was that he milked whatever contact there was to the utmost after taking the wrong decision to chip ahead. And Godman can certainly feel very hard done by indeed to see red (and presumably face suspension from the Italy game?) when Flannery didn’t even get a yellow for kicking Pelisson out of the game an hour or so later and Moody stayed on the field for a very dangerous take-out of Mclean on Sunday.

On a more technical level, Robinson’s bench selections went badly wrong. OK, you can’t entirely bargain for losing two of your back three to serious injuries (thankfully not as serious as they looked at first) after 35 minutes, but those who were asking before the game why on earth Godman was on the bench ahead of Hugo Southwell proved sadly prescient when Mike Blair had to play as an emergency winger for 55 minutes because Godman only covers one position.

The real problem, though, was that Scotland couldn’t close out a game when ten points up with ten minutes to go. It’s all very well Robinson saying Scotland were the better team for 70 minutes (not true- the pendulum had begun to swing to Wales well before the last ten minutes)- as others have said above, a game lasts 80 minutes. Even granting that Scotland had wretched luck with injuries, they should not have folded under pressure in the way they did. I’m not sure about the final re-start- I suspect Blair (who doesn’t normally take restarts anyway) was concerned that if he put the ball out he’d hand Wales a penalty or scrum on the half way line. It may be desperately harsh to say so, but my gut feeling is that that is a side which is comfortable with losing, accepts that coming second is its proper place in the hierarchy of the game and doesn’t really expect to put away “big” opponents (except maybe England, where other factors come into the equation). And maybe, with this set of players, they can’t…………

A final thought (honest) on John’s actual question about injuries. I completely agree with HoppoLocos- we should do away completely with tactical substitutions, only allowing them for medical reasons certified by an independent doctor (at least in the pro game where it’s reasonable to expect that level of medical back up). If players knew that the default position was that they’d have to go the full 80 minutes then it might make them a little more cautious about pacing themselves through a match. Jester21’s points on padding are also valid, though I’m not sure you could easily ban scrum caps.

As a PS- just what colour of card did Godman get, for Heaven's sake? Red or yellow? I've seen it reported as both. I know it isn't relevant in the context of Saturday's game but I assume it makes a difference in the context of whether Godman's available for the Italy game (am I right in assuming that a red would mean an automatic suspension for at last one game?) In a way I almost hope Godman isn't available for selection so that Robsinson isn't tempted to go for the same lopsided bench he picked for Saturday.

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First of all, very pleased to hear Chris Paterson and Thom Evans are on the road to recovery, Thom's injury looked most unpleasant, unfortunate collision there I feel. Also a pity as he looked his livliest in a Scotland shirt so far up until then!

On to the rest: What was wrong with our scrum! I don't recall a single scrum the whole match taking place without some sort of collapse, this needs sorted, it's a joke every scrum being reset every game.

Our front row were ok, quiet game for Murray. Ross Ford threw very well at the lineout, correct me if I'm mistaken but we won 10 of 10! So also credit must go to the second row there too! I think we missed Hines and the "hard yards" he invariably gains!

The back row were very good, great break and good strength by Barclay for his try! Once again a stunning game from Johnny Beattie, really playing well, great line breaks during the match. I don't know how Kelly Brown must have been feeling yesterday but he covered almost every blade of grass on saturday! He seemed to always be there to offer support in attack!

The half backs by and large were good, there seems to be a much better working understanding, as you would expect, between Cussiter and Parks, Parks deserves particular credit for the manner in which he has returned, he's certainly always had more than his fair share of critics!

Centres were fine, Morrison is solid in defence, although the usual questions have been asked about his limited attacking ability. Lamont was fine, I would prefer to see him on the wing wing Max Evans or Alex Grove in the centre (maybe both) this is because I think Sean thrives most on the wing where he gets more space to do his thing!

Unfortunately not too much to say about the back three, Paterson barely got to enjoy his momentous century, sad for a great servant to Scottish rugby, although I'm sure he'll bounce back! Thom Evans looked very lively, he has an impressive nack of beating his first man, he's certainly devloping nicely, of course all the best wishes for his recovery. Rory Lamont is one of the unluckiest men in a Scotland shirt, tipped by Jeremy Guscott to be our main player he once again suffers an injury and his tournaments over. Although he must be credited for his efforts yesterday, another lively game, should have backed himself rather than chipping through for the chance he had.

Looking positively back on saturday and ignoring the final 10, there is plenty we can take from the game. I can't remember a time recently when, against a side as talented as Wales we've broken the line so many times. We genuinely looked dangerous almost every time we had the ball until about 60 minutes! Robinson and Townsend are certainly doing something right, we just have to be patient . . . again! Looking forward to the Italy game, John, another thoroughly enjoyable performance from your son, let's build towards getting some wins under our belt, first in Italy and then against the auld enemy in March!

John - Jonathan Davies's commentary has been coming in for more than the usual criticism for being yet again aggravatingly pro Wales, including pathetic "go on" screams as Wales pushed for the winning try.

What are your thoughts on that? Should the rest of the UK have to put up with uninformed, simple minded, blinkered fanboy shouts from Jonathan Davies or, as all UK residents are after all funding it, should the BBC not be responsible for providing adults capable of offering impartial commentary on the events unfolding before them?

John, as far as I understand it, isn't it the case that the penalty was kicked before the clock went red. Therefore the referee was perfectly within his rights to have one more restart, we've seen it millions of times in other matches. Scotland should have had more common sense and kicked the ball straight out of play but it is understandable that when you are that drained those kind of thoughts go out of your mind.

To Wales, congratulations on an epic comeback. To Scotland, utter comiserations, well done on a fantastic performance, and I'm sure everybody feels your pain considering the manner of defeat. It's heartbraking to lose the game that you have led from the start with the final play of the game. Utterly devastating and having experienced that myself when I've played, I for one can certainly empathise. Good luck for the rest of the Championship.

I was balling for Mike Blair to kick the ball out at full time, I couldn't believe we kicked it -straight down the middle - back to Wales. We kept Shane Williams on a leash all day but he doesn't need an extra yard of space that having only 13 defenders affords...

However - the most important thing, unfortunately, that came out of the weekend was the injury to Thom Evans.

I think parents of young players need to be warned about the dangers more clearly now. We still bury our heads in the sand when in fact there isn't another contact sport in the world including boxing that has collisions of the force rugby has. That said, it's not that rugby has got more dnagerous, it's just that these days we should know better and playing rugby should be a more informed decision. Most serious injuries are not to do with the size of players, more to do with awkward landings, getting caught in an awkward position, which could have happened in the amateur days just as easily. I remember as a youngster getting tackled and ending up upside down on my head in a ruck. I have never been so scared. Of course I kept playing rugby for many years after that - it is a hard drug to kick - but it just makes me think - how differently would we be reacting now to "the greatest game ever between Wales and Scotland" if Thom Evans injury was more serious?

Wish him a speedy recovery and hope he plays for Scotland again - he is one of the best of an exciting crop of back line talent which we haven't seen for a long time in Scotland.

First and foremost, glad to hear Thom Evans is on the mend... on the light side, wouldn't it be terrible to have to follow the second choice career (professional golfer) or even third choice (chart topping band)!

Now the game... be honest, how many fans, even die hard Scots, gave us an earthly before the game? Here we are lamenting how we gave it away, but what about all the pluses? We were at the races all the way...

Yes, we should have made better decisions, yes we should have closed it out, but winning is a habit and we don't have it... yet. Let's keep knocking on the door and it will open. At least we're going in the right direction, more than can be said for probably half the teams in the 6 Nations.

There are no significant prizes in 2010... if we make the same progress in the next 12 months as we have made in the last 12 months, we'll be right in the mix in NZ.

I was as gutted as the next Scot on Saturday night, still hurting, but we're going places with this team and I'm not giving up on them here... who else is coming along for the ride???

Vive L'Ecosse,
..such optimism fae a Scot ? But, on reflection, well said. I was expecting the Police to knock at my door throughout the last 10 mins, but having had some time to cool down, I think they played with heart and will progress. ( I also expected us to be right royally gubbed )

Good news about Thom though.

After trauling through youtube, I came across the only upload of the last 10mins of the game. Forward it to about 6.45ish, and this may just be bias from a Scottish point of view, but I think it's obvious Byrne does 2 things;
1) leans forward so that any touch will take him over
2) leaves his leg in! There is a touch of Byrne, but only because he touched Godman. Godman did not intentionally take him out...
I would like to see a couple more camera angles as I'm sure everyone else would, but as far as I'm concerned, Lee Byrne has lost all my respect, not only for his conduct over his involvement in the horrific injury to Thom Evans, but for, what seems like a blatant form of cheating... As I said, I'd be intrigued to see more camera angles because that one is pretty inconclusive, but you can see the intent by Byrne, not to score the try, but to get Godman carded.
Great blog again Mr. Beattie, gets everyone involved in a proper discussion and that's surely what they're all about?!
Hope that Paterson, Evans and Lamont as said by everyone else, make a speedy recovery as they are monumental figures for us.

I'll have a go at the 'is there too much cheating..' question. I think that there is no more cheating now than there ever has been in the past. I recall, many years ago a haymaker of a punch being directed at a Scottish lock and he went down like a sack of tatties. The replay clearly showed that there was no contact but the one swinging the punch got sent off.

As for the Lee Byrne incident, I'm not convinced that the ref actually saw it. I think he saw Byrne going down and Godman standing there with his usual scared rabbit look and thought "must have been a trip".

The scrum is a mess, and has been ever since the IRB changed the Laws in this area. It doesn't help when the ref has no idea what is going on in the scrum. Brian Moore made this point during the England Wales game.

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A couple of things about Mike's (1.46 pm) post. If you watch the replay of Thom Evans on that fateful charge you will see that he ran headlong into Welsh defenders twice and I think that his injury occurred in the first collision. I also don't think that there was any malice in the second collision, Thom ran in head down at an angle. The ruck that formed on top of him probably didn't help much.

Whilst I agree that Lee Byrne appeared to go down a bit too easily, he will undoubtedly be praised by his coach for helping to win the game. I think that he went down because he knew immediately that he had over-cooked his kick ahead and that Messrs Blair, Evans and Cusiter were going to get to it before him.

There is one way to deal with the likes of Borthwick and his attempt to get somebody carded and that is to give him a yellow card for trying. Soon put an end to it.

I don't think you can underestimate the impact seeing a friend and teammate leaving the pitch on a stretcher and in a neck brace does to a side.

I recall Nottingham falling to pieces after Tom Woolrich, who was playing hooker that day, had to leave the field in a similar fashion. Unfortunately for Tom his recovery has not come as far as Thom Evans'.

Firstly, best wishes to the three injured players for a speedy recovery.

Secondly, in answer to your last question - no, I don't believe it is getting too rough, simply that the increased athleticism of the players can lead to more severe injuries. Impacts take place with much more intensity at greater speeds. It's kind of inevitable, but what's the alternative, ban it altogether?

Finally, that was a real sickener on Saturday, I thought I would cry. Losing a game in those circumstances says as much about the tenacity of the Welsh as it does about Scotland's failure to close out the game. However, there is no doubt Scotland are playing rugby at a level not seen for years, and whilst I would like to see them win a few, for now I'm happy with them trying to win, as opposed to trying not to lose.

This will take time, but I have faith in AR and the squad to deliver.

PS Dan Parks - what a guy.

come on boys, be fair scotland should have had a yellow card far earlier than they did . the side that wanted to play rugby won , most of scotlands points come from welsh mistakes . i don't agree that scotland were the better team they took their chances thats all . if wales had finished their chance's in the first half then we wouldn't have needed a comeback, we made 10 errors in the first half continually gifting the ball back to the scots ( same as the english match) . as for byrne diving your aving a laff , there was more than enough contact to fell him especially at the speed he was going ( faster than powell in his cart) a couple of the comment's just make you look like bad loser's which is a shame . hope your boys make a swift recovery

Scotlands performance in the final ten minutes was sickening. Regardless of the Byrne/Godman incident, Godman has proven already that he is a defensive liability and should be dropped from the squad.
Blair's restart would have been laughable had I not been mortified at the time. what was he thinking? His team down to 13 men who were out on their feet, had been under huge sustained pressure and he refuses a draw? Was he the only person in the stadium who thought Scotland could still win? Surely, he should be stripped of the joint captain's role.
Really felt for the back row who played well.

Watched the analysis on Scrum V post below

https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8515604.stm

Pretty harsh decision, as one of the Welsh lads said 'maybe a yellow for Byrne'...

I have read 606 and this and to be honest I'm disappointed that there are Scots suggesting Byrne took a dive. Seems such sour grapes, much like Andy Robinson has shown. I have also just seen a photograph where it looks a trip. I can't show it on here, because of possible copyright issues, but you can find it for yourselves on Walesonline. I'm sure there would be action against Byrne if there was a dive too.

But I will say that I believe Clancy should've gripped the game sooner. One example being when your second row was only penalised for rucking nowhere near the ball on Adam Jones. That should've been yellow for me and that could've made a difference to the make up of the game as it was quite early in the first half.

Anyway, people talk about Gatland and about his conduct, but I bet nobody is batting an eyelid at Robinson's conduct on Saturday. Clear as day acting uber smug when Scotland pulled clear and for me that made Wales' comeback sweeter, because I can just imagine his reaction at full time. I saw highlights of his reaction as he walked out of his box and as you can expect he's livid. Perhaps he'll be able to conduct himself a little better during match days?

Anyway, I hope your injured players get playing again soon and I hope you all enjoy the rest of the tournament.

Glad to hear today that Thom Evans is showing signs of positive recovery.
Good luck to him and the other injured players.

Found these two items earlier which may help a little in the Byrne / Godman debate.

See what you think.

https://www.fotosportuk.com/viewphoto.php?albumId=1407&imageId=34874&source=&page=1&searchField=&searchstring=&orient=&sort=&sortorder=&numperpage=&imagepos=

https://i45.tinypic.com/5x1l52.gif

Yes, there is far too much cheating.

Look at the scandals afflicting rugby in the last year:
Bloodgate, 'tactical' blood substitutions [Richards & Leicester, et al.], cocaine abuse [Bath], a spate of eye gouging [Quilan, Burger, Parisse, Dupuy, Attoub etc...], soft punishments for trying to remove someone's eye when in the real world that's a serious assault charge and 12 years in the clink [IRB], the coach of the world champions telling us that eye gouging is 'part of the game' and to stop fussing [De Villiers], diving when minimal contact is made to gain an advantage and win games [cough cough], the inability of teams to engage correctly in scrums [any team in rugby], players rounding the referee [here, there and soon, everywhere].

Worst of all, the inability of referees to manage the game, fairly and consistently. I don't remember it ever being this bad. If this cannot be done at international level with the stakes so high, then what's the point in playing?

This is why I'd have every kid in Scotland playing sevens. It is truly the beautiful game, because it is easy to play and easy for referees to manage. A XVs game like Scotland Wales is better by far but how often do they come along now?

Is rugby too rough?

I remember being substituted and watching my own team from the touchlines in the last few minutes of an U-16 final and being surprised at how violent it was. Grown boys were crashing into rucks and mauls like I've never seen before or since, even on the telly, but I loved playing, it was a great game and I didn't feel a scratch when we won. Depends if you are unlucky enough to get injured and how bad it is.

I've just retired as serious rugby injuries were interfering with my paycheck and quality of life.

Sorry that should be Richards and Harlequins*. Duh.

well having watched the slowmo and replays I can reckon that ain't a trip and it aint dive. Byrnes foot hits Godman's foot while he's in the air. Godman doesn't move into Byrne's and there's nothing in the rule book that says you have to get out his way. Poor decision by the ref, a bit like Liverpool getting a penalty in front of the kop.

Putting it all aside its still the best 60-70 mins Scotland have played for some time.

With the injury count mounting up Robinson's selection for Italy will be interesting, I've still got my boots.........

That back division sounds like just the ticket to me.

Did someone mention a ticket? What game for? I'll have it.
C'mon the boys.

John , I don't think there's much else AR can do with the backs, except maybe Grove for your Evans at outside centre. I suspect Cairns may work his way on to the bench as he could also cover full back as well as centre /wing.

Mind you he could always keep Sean Lamont at 13 and bring back Walker as well as Danielli, the size of that back line would be enormous

I may be slightly biased as an Ospreys fan, but I really wonder what Nikki Walker has done to be so out of favour with Andy Robinson.

Walker has been in outstanding form for the Ospreys this season and I would have thought would be an asset to that Scottish back-line. He breaks tackles, is fast, a very good tackler, and also goes looking for work around the pitch.

As far as I am aware, AR does not have a policy of not picking players who do not play for the Scottish regions, so why is Walker so overlooked ?

Let's not forget that he has to compete for a place at the Ospreys against Shane Williams and Tommy Bowe - both of whom are outstanding players. Yet he still manages to get his place with regularity. Maybe it is time for AR to come South of the Border and actually look at some of the Scottish players who are plying their trade down South. He picks Lamont, so must have been to Llanelli. Swansea is barely 13 miles from there !!

JB - agree with that backline for Italy (funny that all Dan Parks naysayers, myself included, now have him down first on the teamsheet!). For the bench, let's show a bit of ambition and put Blair, Jackson and Cairns down (Max Evans covers wing too). Jackson can cover 10, 12, 13 and 15 while I've never understood why the cutting edge Cairns offers is so often overlooked. Grove has been unlucky this 6N, maybe Robinson will promote him above Cairns to cover 12 and 13?

Jester21 - you clearly didn't see Nikki Walker play for Scotland A two Fridays ago. Abysmal. Do agree he's looked good for the Ospreys when I've seen him this season though.

Why did the referee allow the kick off when the scores were level at 24 each. Time was up, 80mins 11 secs, the ball was dead, he should have blown for no side. The Halfpenny try came from a forward pass, not called. If Andy Robinson says Byrne? dived on Godman, then he did, referee conned again. Lucky Wales, the Irish should take them apart.

A question I have about the Scotland supporters. Why does the French match not sell out whilst the England match was sold out in days?

OK - I know the answer but I think it is a problem when we cannot sell out any match other than the Auld Enemy. These guys deserve a full house everytime they take the field to play for Scotland. Annoys me intensely. I travel down from the frozen North any chance to see Scotland play but it seems others are not so like minded. Presume there are more corporate hospitals at the England game than the French but still.

Rant over.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

As we walked through Cardiff after the game, every welshman said you were robbed, and they weren't talking about our lack of underwear

All the best to Thom Evans, Chris Paterson and Rory Lamont for a speedy recovery.

I thought Scotland were immense in the first half - their best performance since what France 1999? Wales were poor at the start but only because Scotland were at their best.

Before this match, the usual post-loss platitudes about "building on performances" were starting to wind me up but Scotland really did deliver in the first half. And even by the end of the game - after the loss - I'd say this was one of our better performances in recent years.

Like Vive L'Ecosse said, if we can carry our first half performance forward and learn from the mistakes then the future looks bright!! And shame on those of you who look past that and see this loss as yet another opportunity to criticise!

JB,
- if I recall correctly, there were a lot of head knocks at the start of last year's 6N and I wondered then if rugby had become more dangerous. On balance though, I'm guessing the increased physicality and intensity is balanced by the improved player conditioning and medical care. You know better than us, what do you think?
- i do think there's more cheating and 'acting up' in rugby nowadays and I'd like to see it stamped out. It's been a while since I've seen a ref move a penalty forward 10 yards - something I think they should be making more use of in these circumstances.

Slightly techie point about timing. How actually controls the timing and is the stadium clock and the clock on the TV coverage also linked into the ref's watch? I'm wondering if there was a discrepancy between the clock going red on the telly and what the ref saw on his watch. When things go down to the wire in the way they did on Saturday (and I can recall something similar happening with Wales in Rome a few years back when Hook belted a penalty into the corner with a few seconds on the clock and the ref blew for time before the lineout could form) the issue of who exactly is keeping the time matters. A case for Rugby League-syle central timing with a hooter to signal when time is up?

i just want to make a note that for me the matchwinning moment wasn't the try shane williams scored but the one he saved with a mark, just before Parks drop goal to make it 24, that would have Aussie Rules fans salivating over for a long time.

I really want to add though, and one I've been saying for a few years now, Andrew Cotter is as good a man to take on Bill McLaren's mic as we are ever going to get... enjoyed his commentary on Saturday.

Great effort by Scotland but should've closed the game out - unfortunately they're not in that position very often and didn't know what to do with the lead! They were unlucky with injuries though and hope they all make a speedy recovery. The first sin-bin was so stupid and unnecessary and was the begining of the end... The second however was summed up brillianty by forward Jim Hamilton - "that kink of stuff does not belong in the game of rugby. That belongs in football". Speaking of sin-bins, it's a pity that Jonathan Davies wasn't given a 10 YEAR yellow card, then we would all be spared from his biased opinions - maybe he should listen to a few clips from the bill mclaren archive and hear what a true professional sounds like! Looking forward to him making a public and personal apology for attacking Godman and then condemn byrne for his 'bolero' dive. AYE, AND SHEEP MIGHT FLY! I'm off to sulk for another 12 months!

#92

No complaints about Cotter, but have to say I am getting fed up with Nick Mullins who announced after Tait scored on Sunday that "England have their FIRST try", i.e. we can now expect the floodgates to open.

It says something that compared to him, Brian Moore is the epitome of balanced comment.

JB - my back line for Italy:

Cusiter, Parks, Groves & Evans in the centre, Walker and S Lamont on the wings and Southwell at FB, Blair, Jackson and Cairns on the bench.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Interesting article John. One has to take notice of what the medical experts say. However, I still think they need to look at why hits are becoming so much bigger.

I come back to my original point I made earlier. That is, I still believe the proliferation of padding has a profound effect on how players throw themselves around as they develop a false sense of security.

And before anyone criticises my motives for saying this, I should point out that I spent most of my career, in the pre-padded days, in the back-row playing either blind-side flanker or No.8 and that my playing days were ended by a serious injury in that I cracked a vertebrae in my lower back. However, because I plied my trade in the lower divisions of the Welsh League, my cracked vertebrae was not picked up at the time it happened. It was almost 2 months later that I suddenly developed a back problem and a specialist eventually spotted that I had cracked a vertebrae some time earlier and that it had healed incorrectly. Fortunately for me, I must have done it in the last game of the season because all this happened during the off-season in summer months.

neverhadpace is correct! Lawson should be dropped!
I would go even further and suggest that he should never be picked again! In this professional era what was he thinking; if he didn't realise what he was doing and the repercussion of his actions (inside the final 10mins) do we really need that sort of stupidity?
Also, very little comment about the return and performance of Murray, eagerly anticipated after last week's refusal to play. Perhaps, because he didn't make the expected difference in the set piece, most of the problems appeared to be on the tighthead. Lineout was good, general play encouraging, scum abysmal!
Another heretical suggestion - drop Murray too! 80% committment to Scotland, less than 80% performance on the field. Give another prop a chance who's prepared to give 100% all the time, in every game!

Ken - I agree about support. The SRU needs to get more creative and think about how it rewards those who attend Scottish rugby games on a regular basis. In my opinion there should be a priority for 6 nations home tickets to those who attend all the Autumn tests. However, if this was done then one of the Autumn tests would need to be taken "on the road" so as not to give those of us who live in the central belt an unfair advantage.

As to the above suggestion of JIm Thompson fro the Rome game - I watched the Wolfhounds game on line and he had a shocker. Two aimless kicks which allowed the Irish to run down a the wing an score tries.

I also agree with Jester about padding and it giving some (perhaps very young) players a false sense of invincibility. However, those at the top level of the game cannot be so naive as to think that padding allows them to through themselves about and not get injured. Too many of them do for them not to realise that the padding is not doing too much.

Having watched the other games, I'm hopeful we can win at least two perhaps even three of these.

Like many, while watching the dying seconds of the game, I wondered why the restart was allowed to take place (and wondered about the legality of booting out on the full).

On the first point, in hindsight the referee did the right thing in my opinion. The players asked him if they would be allowed another passge of play if they took the kick to goal, he checked the time and said yes.

Despite the fact that time ticked on and would, under normal circumstances, have signalled the end of the game, the ref had to stick by his decision.

Im sure that if the referee had said, "no", Wales would have taken a scrum, possibly lineout, fancying their chances vs 13 men to win the game. As it was, by being allowed the kick at goal and a further passge of play, they could guarantee the draw and hope that they might get a win out of it... which, astoundingly, they did.

Had they been forced to make the decision to kick for goal to seal a draw or go for the win, who knows what may have happened.

As for comments on Euan Murray and the scrum, it seemed convenient to me that when Gethin Jenkins came on that the scrums were a lot more stable. Was Murray a victim of his own failure to bind properly early in the game, then automatically getting blamed for every indiscretion thereafter? Perhaps only he will know that..

But for me, Jenkins was more willing to compete in the scrum and tried to take Murray on. Shame his calf injury flared up again.