Fans can change the game for the better

The fans are already doing something - not turning up to matches. The Premier League has lost an average of 2000 fans in 2 years.
If that isn't a wake up call to them then they should give others a chance who might try someting new like play-offs, a bigger league, winter break etc

Welcome back Jim,some good points made.

Nothing has changed other than referees getting even more for being rank.
The SPL can't even agree on the introduction of a winter break which should surely be non-controversial never mind league reconstruction.
We now have the ridiculous scheduling of the New Year OF game on a Wednesday night, 28th.December, supposedly because it's easier for the police to control a midweek game,was it not a midweek game that sparked off the political "desire" to eradicate sectarianism?

What about those fans who travel long distances?
A 12.30 kick off gives a chance of travelling in what passes for daylight at this time of the year not to mention those who would need to take time off work with extra expense.

Once again it seems that it's the football supporters who are paying for the failure of others.

I agree with #1 that fans are staying away and that is the only real weapon we have if we want to effect change, that and the continual bombardment of clubs and SPL, SFA with letters, emails expressing our disapproval of their ludricous ideas.

I doubt we will see change but live in hope, the alternative is to give up altogether.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Difficult to raise any enthusiasm this time Jim.

From a selfish standpoint the shambles at Easter Road beggars belief. To embark upon a new season with a manager who clearly wishes he was elsewhere is quite ridiculous. Petrie needs to sort this out ASAP. He must accept whatever payment Birmingham or Forrest have tabled immediately and drive Calderwood to Waverely himself to ensure he gets on the train.

I think he is dithering because he is aware that one more duff managerial appointment will put his own neck on the block. Hibbies wishing to swing the axe should form an orderly queue.

As to the wider picture I sympathise with #2. Same old, same old.... It is all rather depressing.

Maybe United can give us something to shout about tomorrow ? I live in hope, but sadly, not expectation.

Here we are again season not yet started and BBC Scotland pandering to the old firm. We all pay licence money towards those employed by BBC why can they only talk about Rangers and Celtic.
If other club's officials had behaved as badly as these two clubs had do you think they would have been dealt with lightly.
Now we move on to phone ins why can the BBC not allow a greater number of fans from other clubs to give their opinions.
It is high time that more comentators that are not former Rangers and Celtic comentating objectively on games.
Please have a serious look at this you are driving the real football fans away from listening to BBC sports sound

Hve just read on BBC site that refs and match assessors will be asked to concentrate more on what's being shouted by the crowd as part of the effort to combat sectarianism.
Which numpty dreamt this one up?
Don't the officials have enough to do, and who's going to verify their comments?

What are the police and stewards for?

This gets sillier by the day.

You can find out exactly what's going to happen this season on my shiny new fitba site:

https://theweeman.posterous.com

Some of it's funny. Some of it's serious. As for the rest of it...

#5

Totally agree. Imagine the outcry if a non-OF manager had reacted to something said to him (like how Lennon clearly reacted to same) and chased an opposing manager or chairman?

Imagine it.

Now consider that it actually happened last season. And the manager had no sanctions whatsoever placed on him. Mind you, his is well respected in the Scottish game.

'he' is well respected.

What needs to happen is people getting off thier sofa and putting there bum down on a seat in the nearest ground regardless of how the team is doing .
It annoys me that people cant support who is their home town . Imagine if the same applied to international football .
Support your local team , even if as a second team . People use the excuse of the football being poor , its only poor compaired to a couple of clubs , not every team plays like Barca , so come on people , support your local clubs and understand that is where you are from , your part of it already .

As a st johnstone fan i have had to watch as our crowds have fallen from around 7-8000 in the 90s, even when we were in division 1, to around 2500 for every home match. We cannot even fill it when the old firm come to Perth these days. Instead of paying £50 a month to Rupert Murdoch why dont the fans put it by, invest in a season ticket and get behind their team!!

The season starts on Saturday with Arbroath away for the Dees. Not going, might be a decent game but to be honest away games are just not in the budget for the season. I do have a season ticket, my kids kindly bought it for me for fathers day. If Dundee were in the SPL (don't laugh) I wouldn't have a season ticket. The SPL is just a bore fest. In some ways (strange I know) I would not be that upset if the Dees stay in league 1. At least there are possibly 8 teams that have a chance to win the thing and equally be in trouble, that makes for an exciting league if not the same level of quality. So for the season ahead:

Lower league clubs to get better coverage from the BBC and media in general. ( won't stay awake waiting ).
Scottish Football being what it says Scottish Football not the Rangers/Celtic supporters club. Not the fault of rangers/Celtic but they do have the power to help bring about change that benefits all and not just themselves.
League reconstruction - needs to happen, won't happen. At least a relegation play off from the SPL but it just won't happen.
Good football - you never know.
Decent refs - not an easy job but given they appear to now earn more than players and most punters each month they need to up their game. They are as important as the players on the day and really need to get a grip and build relationships instead of coming across as aloof and all knowing.

Finally, breaks my heart, but good luck to Utd tonight. Scottish football needs a lift and maybe the wee team and there fan(s) can start the season off on a possitive note. Wish everyone all the best unless you play the Dees, if that happens I hope we hump you. :)

welcome back jim. it really is unlikely that we will see anything better than last season as we have changed absolutely nothing to achieve it.

with respect to sectarianism it has to come from the clubs and the fans, no amount of regulation will stop it. until such time as clubs and fans from all scottish clubs (this is not just an OF problem) unite in saying that football and religion should have absolutely nothing to do with each other and reject any such notion that they do, then the cultural associaiton will remain. even the flying of Union and ROI flags is sectarian in my own oppinion, or at least represents an affiliation with a religion to the clubs. the assosciaiton has to stop.

with respect to fan pressure groups, i do think it was partly fan pressure that ensured the death of a 10 team set up. but fans and the regulatory bodies alike are all subject to bias and self interest etc. it's not impossible that a system of pure democarcy where anything with a vote over 50% might be a way to get change but i'm still not sure anyone knows what they really want for the best.

what is it that scottish football can be? for me it has to be a foriegn and impartial delegation that could decide that. scots historically in all areas only too often look to follow the english way of thinking and not elsewhere. we cannot be and are not england. copying a business model much like the premiership in england, based on a sense of elite will never happen. we cannot be an elite league. it is impossible. we need fresh, and in my view foreign thinking.

all the best for the scottish national team in the autumn and to the scottish clubs in europe.

Sorry Jim, but I don’t feel any enthusiasm for the coming season. I’m more apathetic and even depressed about the prospect for the new season. It very much guaranteed that either Rangers or Celtic will win the league again with the rest fighting over the scraps and relegation. Although I’m sure they will give it their all fighting over those scraps, it’s still scraps. So tell me, what do the Hibs, Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United fans have to look forward too? A win over the old firm? Maybe even a cup final against Rangers where they will fight valiantly but in the end lose by two or three goals, and come the final whistle commentators will endlessly patronise their team on how bravely they fought. It’s predictable, boring.

The Scottish game has always been dominated by the old firm. However in the last 30 years they have moved from dominating to monopolising the league, the cups and even the headlines. All sport is built on the foundation of competition. It’s this competition creates the drama, the spectacle, the enthusiasm and keeps the game alive. However the old firm are so dominant that other clubs reduce themselves to parasites, sucking the blood of their host in order to survive. It’s unfair to lay all the blame on the doorstep of the old firm. In may ways they are victims of there own success. Being so dominant has crippled them in Europe. The number of times they have seem ill-prepared for competitive matches against European “minnows” is telling. The league is simply isn’t competitive enough for them. This has lead the old firm to become both arrogant and complacent. The debacles of last season full exposed the contempt for the Scottish was self evident.

There is little doubt that the game has been in decline over the last decade, even the casual observer would admit this. The simple fact of the matter is, the old firm are suffocating the game and there is a danger they will kill it. If the old firm didn’t exist the game would be more competitive and healthier than it is. However, the are here and they cannot leave. England doesn’t want their disgusting, rancid, small minded sectarian baggage or need their money. Both old firm teams seem content to have an easy way into the Champions League., otherwise they would pursue an entrance into the English league more vigorously. Even if they did exit the SPL there is no guarantee that this will revitalise the Scottish game. My guess is that fans will leave in droves while the SPL drops in stature while the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs will also look for a way into the English leagues. However, I believe it’s more likely in the coming decades that a European system will come about with the old-firm forever struggling to compete with the REAL giants of football. However, this is far into the future. This new season we will expect more of the same. The old firm trying to compete in Europe, but ultimately failing to make their mark, which will lead to yet more naval gazing. Yet at the same time the dominate the SPL and cups and pat themselves on the back as they brush aside Aberdeen 6- 0. Predictable, boring, safe.

Doesn't look like there's much enthusiasm about Jim and while the points made that nothing has changed so why should we be more optimistic this season the constant whingeing about OF being either the root of all evil or to blame for the decline in standards is nonsense.

The SPL comprises of member clubs, despite the efforts of officials to tell them and us that they know best.
Therefore who is to blame for the lack of decision making which has led to the status quo ? The CLUBS.
They spent months apparently seeking ways to alter and improve the league and what did they achieve? NOTHING
In fact it was less than nothing because the decision was taken so late in the day, Celtic had already committed to the Dublin Cup and had to be allowed to re-arrange the second league fixture with the others being allowed a similar opt out if they wished.
This hardly adds to the credibility of the SPL in the eyes of the world.

We continually hear that OF dominate the rest of SPL who can't compete financially and how unfair that is.
Why then are Hearts, owned by a man who can print his own money and presumably the third richest club in Scotland selling Lee Wallace to Rangers?
If they really had ambition they would surely hold on to him rather than sell him days before playing Rangers in the opening game of the season.

There certainly appears to be a divide between the clubs and that can only be resolved by compromise but clubs outwith OF need to show a bit of ambition also.

It's hard to get excited about the new season to be honest. As a Raith Rovers fan, I don't expect better than a mid table finish. John McGlynn has had to slash the wage bill for the coming season, so I think we'll do well to stay clear of a relegation dog fight. Also, with The Pars getting promoted to the SPL, we don't have the big derby matches to look forward to either.
As for the bigger picture, I'm sure it will be more of the same: The tribalism which exists between two sets of supporters in Glasgow will result in the whole of Scotland being branded bigotted and sectarian by the world media. Very depressing.

Same old, same old. Jim - Can you please explain exactly what has changed from last season ? Apart from the early farcical start it appears nothing has altered. We already have a Scottish team out of Europe. The SPL will be decided between the Old Firm. With only one team relegated from the SPL the only way to create interest is via the artificial "split". Why should the fans turn out to watch the same shambles ? SELF PRESERVATION rules. The fans are ignored and the media continue to cow tow to the Glasgow Big 2 (with one or two exceptions like your good self). A fair bet that one year from now you will be repeating the same old. Yes - The same old !!

morbhoy. i'm slightly astounded by your comments saying that OF dominance is down to a lack of ambition from all the other clubs. All the other clubs tried their upmost to keep up with the OF after the creation of the SPL but with only a fraction of the TV and mechandising money of the OF had they had no chance whatsoever. in attempting to keep up they simply aquired crippling debt. the money wasn't there for them as the spl system benefitted the top 2. romanov simply used his money to save an entirely dead business in hearts, that's where the money has gone and aberdeen are now moving to a council funded stadium to clear debts. the truth is their attempts to keep up with OF killed them!

I am not in anyway however saying this is all the OF's fault, it isn't. The SPL's business model was built around exploiting the lure of the OF. creating a sense of elite in them, something they felt people would pay for. but it is so obvious that that model is flawed. utterly. now even to the detriment of OF.

Breaking the status quo requires entirely fresh thinking, as i have already said i'm not sure any british or scottish group can break their ways of thinking enough to persue those ideas. the SPL is to blame, they saw the EPL and thought they could exploit the OF to create a similar model.

Optimism? You should hand out kumbaya pills with this blog Jim. Myself I've topped up the vitamin D levels in some serious sun and am ready for the circus ahead and hopefully there will be plenty soap opera to carry us on through the season. Liked the spirit of #10's post and laughed when Solomon described boxing Pa Broon as 'respected'. Looking forward too (without violence) a season of dumb conspiracy theories forwarded by the usual nutters, big club managers using the phrase 'game-changing decisions', tasty controversial derbies that get a big audience, the performance of Lennon, McCoist, Calderwood and Broon the boxer, the Martin Bain Employment case, chic young threatening a hunger strike should HMRC force Rangers into administration and lots more besides.

And into this heady mix of football (and of course lots of alcohol this being a nation of jakey's) it would also be good if Dundee can provide us all with their usual brand of administrative entertainment! Who will be this season's financial basket case?

#19,

Don't understand the Chic Young reference. Surely he is a St. Mirren fan. Is'nt he... ?

@20, and removing tongue from cheek, I know of a few Jambos who worry a wee bit for Hearts given the increasingly bizarre rants of Vladimir - a' the worlds agin me - Romanov. The rest of us, Hibs not least, need a strong Hearts. Who knows what he will say or do next. Can't see Jefferies taking much more of it either.

To paraphrase an old joke, 'Surely' may be a StM fan but Chic is a Ger!!

#18 Craig

I agree that when SPL was formed a lot of clubs spent money they didn't have on players who weren't good enough but whose fault was that?

OF are buying foreign players and paying big bucks so we must do it as well was the mantra.
What a way to run a business.
Sadly nothing much changed did it? OF still won everything or nearly everything and other clubs are still paying the price for their lack of nous.

As regards lack of ambition,I was referring to Hearts and I still believe that Romanov is happy to be in third place despite his many comments to the contrary. If he was truly committed to Hearts winning the league surely he would have taken the gamble of losing Wallace for nothing and kept him for this season ?

Aberdeen have been mismanaged for so long nothing surprises me about them other than to sympathise with a great support who deserve better.

The SPL is the clubs and it is the clubs who must shoulder the blame for the abysmal state of Scottish football. They can't continue to look to shift the blame elsewhere.

To be honest, I don't see a great deal of ambition amongst any outwith OF other than St.Mirren who seem to be progressing.

Haha ! Shirley not. Watch your back though. Don't know how litigious the bold Chic might be. Would he hire Paul McBride QC or Donald Findlay QC ? Not taking any bets.

#23 morbhoy - i will be honest here in saying i'm a hearts fan. in truth i think that the sale of wallace ultimately represents a shift to a sustainable business model for hearts. we need to produce quality players and sell them on. i'd rather have not sold him to an spl rival but maybe we just have to sell to whoever is willing to give us the price. also reflecting a shift to a more sustainable business model is the fact we keep making only free transfers in windows. exploiting the fact we are the 3rd most attractive club in scotland well. Transfer fees in reality are wasted money for a club like hearts. we cannot afford big enough fees to bring in better players than we can get for free or produce. fact!

we have plans for a new stadium on the horizon now and this also reflects the notion that hearts need to build as a club as a whole, not just in the playing squad to mount a lasting challenge to OF. maybe in 10 years things will start coming off.

in reality though there is no getting away from the fact that the business model for the spl was created by the spl. it is designed to benefit the OF, in order to exploit the resultant sense of elite created. With a fairer system celtic and rangers wouldn't be hugely bigger than rosenborg or copenhagen on a european scale. they were for a time at least, significantly bigger, so in that respect it worked. however the economic climate of football has changed and even with the league supporting them the OF now cannot compete even with english championship clubs. elite they can no longer be. It is time for a new business model for the spl. new ideas

i'd love to see someone independently crate a rival bid to the spl for running the league system but i can't see it happening

@25.At 10:35 23rd Jul 2011, Craig wrote
..........................................................
"With a fairer system celtic and rangers wouldn't be hugely bigger than rosenborg or copenhagen on a european scale"
These these represent the elite groups , OF ,Big Four , in thier respective leagues . They have an advantage over the competition like the OF , also like the OF they cannot progress because thier success is devalueing thier league . Thier system is not any more fairer or less than the one in th SPL . The other teams in there leagues do very little in Eruope . Bronby , AB , Molde , Tromso , when was the last time you say any of these in Europe ?

What needs concentrating on is the teams outside the OF .
"exploiting the fact we are the 3rd most attractive club in scotland "
How attractive is that ? The wallflower syndrome is lethal . European football , be it Europa league , should attract a better player , yet selling the best players to clubs above shows to a player coming in at what level he is valued , this has an effect on the individual players and the team . If Hearts attract a player as good as Wallace he would see himself as a replacement for Wallace yet wonder why he wasnt at Rangers , feeding the mentality that leaves the OF ahead of everyone else . The belief that money buys you the best players , which always makes the best team who are untouchable except on an off-day .

Players , managers and chairmen need to see what is possible in football , realistically . Not long ago Portugal was on the same league level as the SPL , last season they had 2 teams in the europa league final , 3 in semis . This was brought about , not only thru good management and coaching but a belief , maybe even an arrogance , that their teams can compete and beat the better teams . There is a lack of belief in the league in Scotland this needs to be addressed . The league needs support , from the SFA , from politicians , from the chairmen ,from the fans . There is no one stopping the progress of football , only those who do not believe that football can progress .

#2,

I do agree that to relegate New Year derbies to mid week evenings is, at first sight, an over-reaction. It is half-time today and I have come across this article.

https://bbc.kongjiang.org/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14251800

As a taxpayer I want answers. Do we really need this ?

#25 Craig

I have no problem with you being a Hearts fan, I think it was fairly obvious to be honest.

I think you'll find the same opposition to moving from Tynecastle as there was last time the subject was raised but the club does need to be able to increase revenue either by getting permission to develop Tynecastle or by moving to a bigger ground.
The real problem is that many people think Romanov was only ever interested in getting hold of the land @ Tynecastle and may lose interest in Hearts once he's achieved that objective.

As regards the SPL, I can only repeat that it was clubs who created this, all had a vote including Hearts, and it's still the clubs who run it. I don't see how it's run for the benefit of OF who are, were and always will be the two biggest clubs with the most money. That will not change.

On the bright side I thought Hearts played well today especially first half and should have been 2 up at half time. Jeffries has bought well it seems but perhaps you need a bit more bite in midfield, apart from Black, who was quite restrained by his standards, Hearts were often second best.
It could be that you don't need Wallace after all,both full backs played well especially McGowan and Hamill has still to come.

Good luck for the season, except when you play Celtic of course.

#27

Thanks for that article which is enlightening to say the least.

As a season ticket holder @ CP I see at first hand how many police are on duty for all home matches and there appears to be not a great deal of difference in the numbers for " meaningless" games such as Hamilton as there is for matches v Rangers yet the reported cost are vastly different.

If the figures are accurate then I would suggest that it must be because police officers are paid overtime for matches v Rangers but are required to take TOIL (Time Off In Lieu) for the rest as the discrepancies are too wide to be plausible otherwise.

As for the cost of policing towns and villages across the area where violence occurs after OF games, is this not dealing with matters which are the bread and butter duties of policing?

I believe the police have an agenda here, to save as much money as possible and this is an area they seem to have identified as one where they can extract more from football.

As for the comment " Does the community want this sum to be spent on a single event" ,does the Assistant Chief Constable think he's going to decide the fixture list?

I would suggest that more detail be provided by the authorities in relation to the costs including what happens to the normal policing roster when TOIL is taken and that they consider reducing the number of police on duty for games where the number of away fans are small.

The police are probably trying to get the clubs to take on more of their own policing. Not unreasonable in the current climate.

#26. i admit that rosenborg and copenhagen are indeed the OF of their leagues. every leauge has a dominant force. my point really was that there wasn't the same structural support behind those clubs as the OF, they simply have the biggest support and therefore merchandising. i agree that the OF generate the most interest so it is very understandable why the financial distribution in the league is skewed towards the top 2. but that leaves the league with no competition. how can you be competitive when the other guys are given a head start. and of coarse given such a leg up the OF are expected to win every game. thats a psychological nightmare.
i agree totally on your sentiments about belief. its a huge impact on the national team too. sport is a mental game too!

the thing is not having structures to create equality strangles leagues. the inequality in scotland is the benchmark for a rubbish league across europe.. the situation developing in spain as there is no collective bargaining for tv money is being criticised saying they "don't want to become another SPL". we clearly got things wrong that other leagues just didn't. in germany so many different teams win the league because of the measures they have them in place, without them some of the teams would have broken away as an elite. i also love the fact that germany is at the centre of their whole football ethos as perhaps it once was in scotland.

# 28 - none of us trust romanov, he is slightly crazy. we lost because of the mafia? more like because we only knew how to hoof it to kyle. i hope we use our midfield, we are better when we do. keep it on the floor and only try to stick it on kyles head from set plays and the byeline. we'll stuff rangers at tynecastle for you. though i hope we'll get somehting off you too!

The current perceived crisis of Scottish football is creating many opportunities for ways of radically transforming the game north of the border - if only cynical fans, could see the wood for the trees. Scotland, like other peripheral professional leagues in Europe, is now finding that the concentration of wealth into the bigger European leagues - England, Spain, Italy, Germany, and to a lesser extent France and Russia - is a trend that is gathering speed all the time. We've got to accept that the TV money will dry up. And when that happens, outside investors will not bother. We need to be pro-active, and take control before the brutal global market, dictates it for us, sending our clubs out of business.

Baring this in mind, there are opportunities for Scottish fans, to take the initiative and takeover their clubs. Seize the clubs, and you in turn seize the governing authorities. Because the Old Firm are themselves not immune, their own fans might as well decide to be part of the solution, and lead the way. Celtic fans have a fan partnership with St Pauli - who are one of the most enthusiastic fan-owned clubs on the planet. Celtic should take inspiration from STP's model. Hoops fans already do it in terms of fan culture, but why not take this further to the economic and democratic sphere? And repeat this process across the Scottish game.

If fans properly control the clubs, they control the game. And we can reform it in a way thats reflective of our desires, and not those of the moneymen.

Looking at the poor attendances most fans appear to be still on holidays!

The SPL is a poor standard for a national league no wonder it is ranked 16th in Europe

Scotland will finish 3rd in their Euro group (missing out again on a tournament final next year)1998 is a long time ago

Rangers will not qualify for the Champions League group stages.The other SPL teams will be knocked out before the Euro league stages again

Groundhog season again for Scottish football

@31.At 12:48 24th Jul 2011, Craig wrote:
..........................................................
Very much agree on no proper stucture with the Scottish league system (and the SFA).
There needs to be more effort but as you pointed out the bussiness model was based on selling the OF as the jewel instead of the what could have been sold , historic clubs , passion and the unique Scottish ability of being just that , Scottish . Meandering to the (then) media image of a much hyped OF has left most clubs like league 1 or 2 sides in England , or the odd Championship standard , even the OF .
In 2 seasons there will be one CL place , who ever gets it will , if they qaulify for the group stages, have an even greater monitory gap over the rest of the pond . The little fish will get eaten before they grow .
The OF cant survive without the league and the league , contratory to much public opinion , cant survive without the OF . Europe is the prize on the end of the rope for the clubs . The thing that escapes most of those chasing this is that without the Scottish league system there is no rope .

@33.At 17:12 24th Jul 2011, tomslaford wrote:
The SPL is a poor standard for a national league no wonder it is ranked 16th in Europe
............................................................................................
National league rankings ? Or UEFA association coefficient , as not all have leagues .

#31

Just how much do you suppose the SPL has been skewed towards helping the Old Firm? Can you put figures on it?

New season, same old BBC drivel. Listening to the Dundee United Uefa match on BBC Scotland on Thursday night, the commentary was dull, and the co-commentary comments were riddled with the usual cliches and wooden observations. Billy Dodds struggles to string a sentence together, and the fact that there is gormless comment from someone called 'Biscuit' says it all. Is it too much to get the wents and gones, dids and dones grammatically right? BBC down south are far superior.

The SPL needs to have a complete look at itself, and try to come up with more reasonable ideas to be put forward to teams than a "ten team league". It is rubbish like that, where nearly every fan was against it, but still the SPL tried to push it through that is making people turn away from our game. If even the people in charge don't listen to what us fans have to say, then what chance do we have.

For more Scottish football related posts, please visit: https://thefulltenyards.blogspot.com

@38 I agree that the SPL needs to reinvigorate itself and the 10 team league is not the way to do it. The ten league plan was nothing short of a farce. The fans didn’t want it, the managers and coaches, players didn’t want it and most of the clubs didn't want it. The length of time and energy the SPL persued this was baffling.

Ideally I would like to see a 16 or 18 team league with just one cup competition using the champions league group format. I would also like to scrap the the Scottish league divisions 1, 2 and 3 and replace it with one league of 20 teams with relegation and promotion coming from regional and junior leagues. Personally I do not see the need for Scotland to have 4 leagues and two major cup competitions. I would go as far to say that the league cup and the second and third divisions have added nothing to to game. Two leagues and one cup is more than enough for a country of our size. Besides, i think it would be a good thing for teams like Patrick Thistle and Ayr to be within sight of the SPL and I also believe it would garner more sponsorship and interest in the lower league.

However, the problem of the SPL won’t be solved by just expanding the league. It’s primarily caused by financial inequity and the inability to retain and nurture talent. This problem isn’t just limited to Scottish football. Countries such as Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and a whole host of smaller countries to some extent are facing similar problems. I have yet to see any plausible ideas coming from either the SPL or the SFA or even UEFA. It’s the lack of a coherent plan that both clubs and fans can get behind is what troubles me the most.

#39 Jim Spence

I'm sure you weren't dull Jim, what kind of biscuits were you munching?

In my experience most co-commentators, in both England & Scotland and on both radio & tv , are lacking in grammatical correctness but as Jim says, that's not why they're employed.

Where I do think the commentators south of the border score ( pardon the pun!!) is that they give many more updates on the scoreline.
It's frustrating to tune in to a match that has started and wait ages for a score update,almost as though Radio Scotland assumes every listener has been with them from the start.

I expect #37 was cheesed off with the score last week and is taking his frustration out on Billy Dodds, etc..

I am really looking forward to the OF playing each other 6 times this season as there are only the 2 half decent teams in a poor SPL.

It must boring as Celtic or Rangers have won virtually everything for past 30 years and they are minnows by European standards.However they play poor quality opposition each week and this is the reason why their standards fall each year.

Face facts ..... all the other SPL matches are League 2 equivalent standard.Even non league teams in England attract bigger crowds than the minnows of the SPL.

Albania are ranked higher than Scotland .... it is the SPL to blame.Beware Liechenstein at your peril they are fancy their chances and so does Lithuania ...wait and see!

@42.At 20:47 25th Jul 2011, tomslaford wrote:
...................................................................
I have never heard Scottish fans boo the national side for an entire game , I have never seen a Scottish player swear into the camera cursing Scotland fans . I have never seen realistic England fan . Ever .

Rangers and Celtic are ranked 42nd and 57th in Europe ..... minnows !

@44.At 20:58 25th Jul 2011, tomslaford wrote:
.....................................................................
Rangers are behind only 6 English teams that means the English Prem as 14 Minnows , must be a great league so . Might catch a match sometime to improve my diving and simulation techinques , dont see much of that in the SPL .

Wait till Malmo knock out Rangers .....

The SPL is a joke you get bigger crowds at a bus stop than Inverness CT v St Johnstone

The OF are sectarian giants in a pool of wee diddy tiddlers

@46.At 21:39 25th Jul 2011, tomslaford wrote:
The OF are sectarian giants in a pool of wee diddy tiddlers
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Sectarian , a small section maybe , not enough to get a team banned from Europe . Any English clubs ever get banned ? Whats that all of them ?

Tom only ever posts on Scottish football

Tom is obsessed with our game

Hello Folks!!!

New Season.. same old gripes!

Is their any positivity back home?

We know the product, we know that only 1 of 2 teams will win the SPL, so what it is what it is!!

I CONGRATULATE the SPL for trying to be innovative in starting the season early.
I LOOK FORWARD to less games in the freezing cold, thus stifiling the enjoyment (and Quality) of matches during the winter.

Their is no quick fix here, so lets at least try to embrace the changes that have been made, and hope in the long term (and I mean the LONG term) it will ultimatley benefit the Scotland National team. Enjoy and support YOUR team well.

By the way, Thanks Chick, for selecting Killie for relegation, nice one. I understand the reasons why punters may agree with you, .. lost Manager, huge turnover of players , massive debt etc.etc.., but if Saturday was anything to go by, Killie are not too far off the pace for a new team, as long as Cammy Bell stays fit (or Stays) hopes are high.

Its going to be a long tough season but bring it on !!

#48

I agree, I think deep down he knows his own league will be a busted flush once the EU rules on the Sky deal. It'll be interesting to see who wins the EPL when ManU, Chelsea, Citeh, Liverpool etc all go to the swanny when their respective sugar daddies pull the plug when it becomes apparent they are down £35m per season.

Jim, I didn't say anything from south of the border is better than north so don't put words in my mouth please. We have a free prescription service, and a much more affordable higher education for students for starters.

However, radio and tv football commentary and coverage, to use your vernacular, 'ain't' one of them! Try this out for yourself; flick between radio Scotland and 5 Live when both are covering football and you'll hear for yourself a world of a difference.

I'm not looking for a 'masterclass' in grammar, neither am I expecting mellifluous perspicacity and profound insight at ever turn of phrase from you or your co-commentators.

However, as a licence payer, I do expect those who are earning a fee from the BBC to have a decent command of the language. Part of the appeal of the BBC, so the Portland Street governors keep reminding us, is its far-reaching accessability and verstaility; if characters are going to use nicknames like 'Biscuit' then I'm afraid that they will exclude the casual listener who is not tuned into footballers' personal references. We get a high standard of punditry in golf and tennis so why not Scottish football?

Perhaps I was harsh in my appraisal of your commentary; it was acceptable but more frequent reminders of the score would not go amiss. If you listen to Mike Ingham and Alan Green you'll be able to pick up pointers.

As for tv coverage, I'm sure you'll agree that Match Of The Day far exceeds anything Sportscene has to offer; even the opening theme tunes are on a different level; 'There's a murmur in the air' while kids kick a ball against a wall - what a lot of kailyard nonsense!

I respond to Tomsalford - 42.
I watch Shrewsbury Town regularly and I honestly wouldn't say that The SPL teams excluding Celtic and Rangers are on a par with Englsh League 2 - more like League 1.

Celtic and Rangers are akin to mid-table Championship.

As for wages, I suspect most of the English Division 2 sides are on a par with most SPL sides. It's a well documented case that when then St Mirren manager Gus McPherson was trying to sign a non-league player from England he couldn't match his wages.

#51,

I struggle to see where you are going with this. MOTD is unquestionably a much more professional TV presentation than Sportscene. It has one major failing for a fan of Scottish football however. It does not show any Scottish football ! Given this limitation Sportscene is, de facto, the superior product for a Scottish football fan.

I listen to 5Live regularly. I find their sports coverage excellent with the glaring exception of football. You cite Alan Green as a model example. Mr. Green, without a shadow of doubt, is the biggest buffoon in British broadcasting. To hear him panting hysterically like a woman in labour whilst describing an England game in terms of 'we' and 'us' in his Northern Irish brogue is a numbing experience. Does the man have no shame ?

I find Sportsound broadly very good. I would point to ' Open all mics ' which is great entertainment only let down by Chick Young who really should be retired to his sailboat.

I realise that the use of nick-names can be an irritation if you do not get the reference but note this is not the exclusive preserve of the Scottish media. What price Lauro ?

Finally, and I have to come out here !, I have been a closet fan of TMS for nearly forty years. Aggers, Blowers, CMJ and Tuffers, to name only four, hardly detract from a broadcasting institution.

In this context you can surely allow us Alan 'Biscuits' Preston, who is incidentally an excellent pundit.

I agree with #40 about the 2 'big' leagues of 16-18 and then regionalised leagues below them. But don't know how workable it would be as I can't see any teams volunteering to go down to the 'diddy' leagues. Not too sure about only 1 cup, as a Dundee supporter, the Alba cup went from being of little interest to a big thing as we got closer to winning it. It's good for the clubs finances if they get a wee run too.

We're a wee country, do we really need the SFA/SPL/SFL to run our game, each with their respective set-ups ? Surely there would be more money to put into the game if we could cut back on administration, beaurocracy and salaries etc. Can't see it happening anytime soon, as, like the wee clubs dropping leagues, the guys running the different organisations aren't gonna put themselves/mates out of a job.

@52.At 13:02 26th Jul 2011, Beebeeseespoart wrote:
I watch Shrewsbury Town regularly
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Thats nice .

Celtic and Rangers are akin to mid-table Championship
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Really so mid-table championship teams pay £40k-£50k in wages and compete in Europe ? Sorry ?

It's a well documented case that when then St Mirren manager Gus McPherson was trying to sign a non-league player from England he couldn't match his wages.
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So well documented it only gets mentioned on blogs . Makes me wonder .

So bebeseaspurt please help me find these things , as unfortunately I have lost my blinkers and might find stuff that is real .

Murray,
Please tell me who is on £40-£50 K a week in the Old Firm. May I add a touch of reality and suggest the average OF wage is £10-12K a week.

Also, Celtic and Rangers do annually play in Europe but I would suggest that the word 'compete' is stretching it a bit.

Whether we like it or not in Scotland, our football is third rate and Celtic and Rangers are also-rans when it comes to Europe.

If you are not convinced just ask yourself where OF players go to down south; is it Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Man City...er, nope; more like Middlesborough and even then they find it hard to hold down a place - case in point; Kris boyd, a former SPL top scorer.

If you want another hard fact, Crawley's wage bill last year in the Blue Square averaged their first team squad on £3k a week - who can pay that in Scotland outside of the OF? Point made!

@55
Robbie Keane was on £65k a week at Celtic .

The wage bill for players at St. Mirren is £12k a week .

I think you are confused between "competing" and "winning" .

Point rammed back up your ......

#53 I too listen to 5Live and I enjoy their football coverage with the exception of the aforementioned Mr.Green who thinks he's god's gift to the world of broadcasting.
As I posted previously regular mention of the score is much better on 5Live than on Radio Scotland and I do think their overlall standard is higher.

I agree with you that there is no comparison between MOD & Sportscene,one has money lavished on it and the other certainly doesn't.
By the way, why don't Hibs allocate more seats to OF fans? I dodn't see the point of building a new stand which leads to more empty seats when for one off games a larger crowd, and more money for Hibs, could be generated,seems short sighted.

#57 I think you're deluding yourself if you think the average OF player is on £30/40K per week.
Robbie Keane was a special case whereby Celtic matched his salary at Spurs.

Apart from any player who is being paid a signing on fee in addition his monthly salary, for tax purposes, I doubt any of the current players are being paid anything like that and I don't believe St.Mirren are paying an average of £12K per week, they would have better players if they were, no disrespect intended.

@59.At 17:58 26th Jul 2011, morbhoy wrote:
#57 I think you're deluding yourself if you think the average OF player is on £30/40K per week.
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With OF I never said average , sorry please read it again .
And yes they matched his Spurs salary , when they wanted to buy him it was an offer of £40k plus bonuses .
Again with St. Mirren I never said average . Its thier total .

#58,

Simple fact of life. On average, for some years, the largest crowds at ER have been when The Jambos come calling. Not the OF. Check the figures. Terribly sorry but you are not the biggest attraction.

Surely tells us something ?

Murray,

Please, please, engage your reasoning before dancing across the keyboard.

St Mirren players on £12k a week?! You do mean £1200 a week, don't you? I do think Murray you should get your facts even slightly right and also learn to appreciate the fact that people speak figuratively! Sorry but something tells me you're now totally confused! Metaphor, me old mucker...think metaphoriacally. Ha ha!

@bebeseaspurt

Once again , you fail to understand English . I will put it in long form for you .
The weekly wage bill for St . Mirren , for the professional and semi-professional players on thier books is twelve thousand Great British Pounds ( £12,000) .
Now I have a five year old child at home if you need help understanding that , I'm sure they could help .

PS by your maths the starting 11 would be on £109 a week . My facts and maths are spot on . Yours are pulled of a coversation you over-heard while watching Shrewsbury Town .

#48 Only Scots have an opinion very small minded ..... Brazil,Hansen,Strachan, earn a living commenting on the English game. Pot and kettle comes to mind !

#53
Why do we want to view Scottish football in England it is a poor product with empty stadiums.The English non league teams would easily compete against the minnows of the SPL such as Inverness CT and St Johnstone

There is no professional league in Europe where the gap is so huge between the top 2 (OF)and the rest of the SPL

Big match tonight Scottish Champions v Malmo wonder who will qualify ??

@64 tomsalford
There is no professional league in Europe where the gap is so huge between the top 2 (OF)and the rest of the SPL
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Proves you know nothing about football .
Celtic 18 ahead of Dundee utd
Real 25 ahead of Valencia .
Or did you not know Spain was in Europe ?

#64
There is no professional league in Europe where the gap is so huge between the top 2 (OF)and the rest of the SPL
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A quick look at the last two seasons in the Spanish top division might dissuade you of that notion.

re wages etc.

Celtic pay more than Spurs, Birmingham, Cardiff, Hull and a good few others (don't know why I put Cardiff in there, Celtic pay out as much in a quarter as Cardiff do in a season).

Hearts pay out roughly £11m per season on wages, which is in the same ballpark as Cardiff, Hull (when not in the EPL), Crystal Palace, Watford (when not in EPL) and about 35% greater than the wages of Norwich, Coventry etc.

I think we can safely say that the Championship is not a great deal bigger than the SPL from an inherently football point of view. The major (only??) difference between them is the TV money (which would allow the likes of the much maligned, above, St Mirren to easily compete with any of the aforementioned Championshp clubs).

The gap is the discrepancy between the quality also

Comparing Valencia with any team in the SPL is laughable.Dundee are a poor quality

Malmo has just taken the lead ...... great !

Strachan signed 7 of the top guns from the OF and they flopped at Boro.... me thinks standard was to high for them !

Milller has signed for Cardiff wait and see how many goals he scores.He was poor last time at Wolves

#67.

For once you're entirely correct. This is most likely because Dundee are in the First Division.

St Mirren would struggle in the non league ...... that is the SPL quality

You would struggle in playgroup.

@68
Strachan signed 7 of the top guns from the OF
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Which 7 ? 4 from Celtic . No offence to Flood , but not a top gun . The other 3 arre still there and playing well ( Barry Robson in particular) .

When will Scotland qualify for the finals of a tournament ................. in 20 years time my guess

You are now ranked as a 4th seed for the world cup groups even Albania are ranked higher !

It's like a stuck record; bereft of original thought, as per usual.

They used to say Scotland came back from a tournament before their postcards !

Now they don't even get there to post them (only joking)

Hahahahahaha, it's funny 'cos it's true.

England come home before the postcards now.

Come on ye Swedes!

The only real issue at the moment in the dizzy world of Scottish football is will McCoist make it to Xmas?

#78

My money already says no. :-)

Lennon blew it last season against Utrecht and Braga and kept his job

Will smiley smiley McCoist blow against the Swedes .... hope so

What is there to look forward to in the SPL 2011/12 ...... ????? answers on a small postcard

#64

Only Scots have an opinion very small minded ..... Brazil,Hansen,Strachan, earn a living commenting on the English game. Pot and kettle comes to mind !
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And you are on a par with them Tom? Very lostminded Tom. Obsessed you are

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

I have mine and you have yours however deluded you are with the status of Scottish football

Rangers 0 Malmo 1 ...................... groundhog day for the SPL

#82

I can only be deluded if I've expressed an opinion on the SPL that you have disagreed with surely?

Trolls don't keep up, they only keep going!

#51

Plenty good came from the kailyard in its agricultural day. Agree with you about Billy Dodds' commentary: but the Radio format is really pitched well as is 5live. The TV format needs comparable resources with that provided down south - two shows per weekend, personalities, big names and salaries. Sportscene badly needs a bit of life among the presenters. Even a disagreement now and then would be good.

I couldn't agree more with Rob's comments regarding Sportscene; it's a tired, old format which needs freshening up. Real discussion, debate and dispute would be much better than getting in guests who just nod in agreement.

Perhaps the job of hosting it should be given to a presenter with a political background?!

#36 solomon_pain.

regards to your comment about how the OF are benefitted in the SPL i will draw your attention to how the tv money is distibuted.

1 - 4% + 13% = 17%
2 - 4% + 11% = 15%
3 - 4% + 5.5% = 9.5%
4 - 4% + 4.5% = 8.5%
5 - 4% + 4.0% = 8.0%
6 - 4% + 3.5% = 7.5%
7 - 4% + 3.0% = 7.0%
8 - 4% + 2.5% = 6.5%
9 - 4% + 2.0% = 6.0%
10 - 4% + 1.5% = 5.5%
11 - 4% + 1.0% = 5.0%
12 - 4% + 0.5% = 4.5%

NOTE the massive gap between second and 3rd. many leagues don't have a sliding scale distribution at all just 100% even split, despite the fact that in every league there are some teams at the top that attract more attention and generate more of that income.

On top of this the SPL's main selling point was the OF, they were therefore more intenisively sold.

all this has meant that for a substantial amount of time the OF have had the opportunity to grow far more than their rivals could possibly do. they were always and always will be the biggest clubs in scotland but the gap has grown. this growth was a product of a system.

#86.

Who are 'some leagues'? Certainly not England, Spain, Italy and I'm pretty sure not Germany. In fact, in Spain 10% of the top division take 49% of the tv revenue. Until recently Inter, Milan and Juve were able to negotiate their own deals, allowing them to divvy out 65% of Serie A tv income between them. In England and to a lesser extent in Germany, there is a sliding scale based on league placement.

That is all largely irrelevant when one considers both the monetary and the proportional amounts when discussing 'the gap':
15% of 12 million is £1.8m (or about 2.75% of Celtic's turnover)
9.5% of 12 million is £1.14m (or about 20% of Dundee Utd's turnover)

Now given that Celtic, as demonstrated by turnover (and pretty much any indicator you care to choose), are considerably larger than Dundee Utd (probably by a factor of 5 or 6) is it 'fair' that Utd get proportionately 7 times more money than Celtic?

Let's set that aside for a moment though and consider the benefits of Celtic and Rangers giving up all their SPL tv money for 100% even distribution amongst the others - how would that benefit them? Well, let's again look at the third place club, they'd be up by a whopping 0.5% (or £60k) per year. Of course, the OF would also be down by £2m and £1.8m respectively so there's a HUUUGE impact, right? Erm, no.

Dundee Utd now earn £5.86m compared to £5.8m and Celtic are on £63m instead of £65m.

Not particularly levelling the playing field is it?

Now marketing, oh dear, you really haven't a clue here - the Old Firm's aggregated average in the last pre-SPL season was over 98,000 spectators, the rest of the Premier Division was under 82,000. SPL marketing has had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with making the OF bigger than anyone else - they already were bigger, by far.

I think the real pulling power of the Old Firm during their greatest accelerated rise (pre-SPL) was the likes of Jorge Cadete, Paul Gascoigne, Brian Laudrup, Paulo di Canio etc plying their trade with them as opposed to Nigel Pepper, Don Goodman and Paul Bernard.

Mind you, the OF are an easy scapegoat when introspection isn't a strong point.

MOTD is better because they spend more, the football league show shows all lower league games. Sportscene , the last time I watched it, was ok. My problem being a Dee is that the BBC or EBC, of which I am forced to pay a license fee, continue to show no lower league highlights in Scotland. Thats is crap, no if's or buts, around 77% of clubs and their fans have no coverage, that is a disgrace.

#86

The gap got bigger after two events: Bosman which ultimately killed the ability of smaller clubs to retain players and in particular, SPL clubs agreeing to keep all of their home gates. Even after getting parity on TV and placement monies (both of which will probably happen in the SPL sooner rather than later), it still won't be enough to do much if any damage to the gap between the OF and the rest, which I thought had grown to a factor of x10 in recent years.

The onus on the SPL is twofold: a better TV deal (audiences are up by over a quarter these past two seasons) and non-OF clubs finding better ways of getting people through the door, or investment in the door.

The German and French leagues most definitely use sliding scales for broadcasting deals - just checked.

#89.

Can't at all disagree with your post.

The massive gap again brings us back to: what to do with the Old Firm?

Even distribution of gate money wouldn't even provide a sufficient enough dent to level the playing field although it would dramatically help our overall game - or would it (see Don Goodman, Paul Bernard etc)? OF turnover would still be 3 to 4 times that of their nearest competitor.

Regarding TV split: search 'broadcasting models - tv times' and check the footballing link, very interesting stuff which shows skewed distribution is not the sole preserve of the SPL.

Interesting to note is that whilst they are not in the article, Celtic's TV money (whilst in the CL) is about a third of the annual TV money from the likes of Villa and while they (Celtic) are not in the CL, it's about a sixth. Celtic and Aston Villa have roughly similar non-tv/non-CL income of around £45m per year.

meant to add: Celtic's 'tv money' includes revenues generated by online media streaming and related revenues etc, which I'm led to believe is more than they get from the SPL tv deal.

#61 I think what it tells us is that Edinburgh rivalry matters more to Hibs fans as it's their seats that are empty.
I was just making the point that, from a business perspective , it makes commercial sense to exploit every possible means of increasing revenue from home games and selling more seats to OF fans,as Hibs fans don't want them, would ensure this.

#93

Aye, but that would mean the OF getting more tickets. Cannae huv that noo ::kisses goodbye to extra revenue::

Looking forward to the World Cup draw for 2014 this weekend !

England are in the top seeds in pot 1 (Big boys)
Ireland are in pot 3
Scotland and N Ireland are in pot 4 (minnows)
Wales are in pot 6

Hope we draw Scotland we could do with 6 points !

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#85
Yep its lifeless. They really do need someone in there who is going to provoke a bit of debate in the way that Eamon Dunphy does on RTE and the Fox Channel (?), contention (perhaps WGS, Chic Young or a younger Jim Traynor) humour. Its not necessary that people like the presenters but they certainly have to be engaging in the way that individuals like Billy Dodds (nice guy but a panellist I think not) are just not.

Jim - I am available subject to a suitable offer from the Beeb!!!

#95
Sad (but understandable) that its all you have to look forward too.

England are in the top seeds in pot 1 (hanging about pretending to be big boys but papped out when the real big boys like the Germans come out to play). You should do another WC bid for 2026 and let the world know you have 'nae pals' and no influence, and then spend the next few months greetin' that its no fair.

Superb entertainment! Encore!

87 Solomon_Pain
Surely you're defeating your own arguement.
If the TV money is so little a percentage of for example Celtic's turnover then why haggle over it. Surely it's not worth the bother especially when as you clearly show it is such a large part of for example Dundee Utd's turnover.

You also conveniently point out comparisons with the clubs which have the least to gain, that is the 3rd and 4th placed teams. In fact these two teams would actually only get 8.33%, so they would actually lose too ! The significant increases would be for the bottom six of the Premier.

Supporters of the old firm and the clubs themselves want to have their cake and eat it !

#98

Try actually reading what I've posted. And what I was replying to.

#94 Would have thought Hibs would keep all ticket revenues for home games especially as they sell them through their ticket office.