Can front-line police jobs be protected?

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I was a police officer in the Met from the late 1970's and am familiar with the problems associated with policing in a time of rising unemployment and social unrest as featured under the Thatcher Regime.

It is unfortunately a foregone conclusion that with unemployment particularly youth unemployment rising that low level property crime and street disorder will also rise.
This is exactly the time when you need a well resourced and motivated police service particularly at Junior operational levels.

Which is precisely what we are not going to get.

It shows the same degree of joined up government as displayed when taxing the poor and families while letting bankers pay themselves millions in bonuses as; Building Aircraft carriers without Aircraft; cutting debt advisers when personal insolvency is at record levels and removing an efficient NHS administration and replacing it at huge expense with an untried and unwanted alternative.

I can't say I am surprised and I am in no doubt that the Condemned Government will deploy it's normal tactic of blaming everyone else for it's own inadequacies.

Roll on 2015!

The 'front line' is the wrong place to make cuts, be it police or any other of the services which we pay the state to provide.

Look first to poorly-designed systems and misplaced priorities. Only once the deficiencies there have been addressed should any thought be given to making savings in any other area.

However, the more important question that the administration ought to be asking its employers (i.e. us) is whether we wish to have the services or would prefer not to pay for them. What we are not going to accept is erosion of service levels without any other benefit to us - by asking for taxes, government takes on obligations which they cannot be permitted to renege upon.

So, the Conservative/Liberal government cuts funding.

The opposition party suggests (note – suggests, not undisputed fact) that this will equate to cuts of over 10,000 front line police officers.

Has it occurred to you BBC that perhaps the opposition party may have a reason to inflate government figures? (Far be it from me to suggest of course that any politician would not be scrupulously honest).

But then you ask the question… “What impact will these cuts have?”. Well, what answer do you expect?

Dear Aunty – your agenda is showing.

This is based on Labour Party research. I wonder what the actual truth will be?

I suppose the Private Sector will be picking up the slack. or maybe the Big Society.

Just how insecure is Cameron going to make this country, we need our police force just like many other security measures he has in his infinite wisdom decided to cut.

Despite these Job cuts, I expect next time there is a demonstration in London, the police will still be loyal (stupid?) enough to protect our MP's from the crowd. What a pity that they did not see this coming and let the student protestors have access to their elected representatives to meet them face to face.
Can Cameron/Clegg explain to the public how cutting police numbers is going to help reduce crime?

Free officers from targets/redtape and allow officers more discretion and you'll make all officers much more efficient. It also means you'll need fewer backroom staff and chiefs. The result is better policed streets AND cost savings. But some people won't want to recognise this as they're too attached to their dogma of high public spending and not allowing a single job loss.

The front line Police jobs must be protected, and extended to the way they used to be before the system operating now.
I have written to HYS before about the local policeman we had in the Northen end of Hayes Middlesex. Nobby Clarke PC 161 died in service and was NOT REPLACED.
From that moment on the crime levels in this area started to rise. He was seen walking, pushing his bicycle anywhere within 'His' area at any time day or night. His knowledge of the local villians was legendary.
Yes, we have the modern,very obvious presence of Lady officers patrolling the shopping area and cycling around the neighbourhood, normally head down, sadly I have never seen the same Officer twice ??

I had the privilege of work at Centrex (National Police Training) a few years ago. Even then, there were budget cuts while at the same time the police force were tasked with increasing numbers.
It is difficult from a logistics point of view to train enough officers quickly enough to just keep the numbers static, if the numbers are allowed to drop it will take ages for them to build up again.
Each training centre was run with military precision, achieving a 99% capacity.

Couple this with the increase in unemployment and no doubt associated increase in crime figures then this would be a bad thing.
The police have been coping with funding cuts for years, and trying to cope by using more civilians and community policing.
It is not easy to cut out police paperwork as this would lead to more cases never reaching court.

Perhaps the only thing left is to gather posses when needed - tin badge anyone?

As long as it the thug element that are the ones who lose their job then i really don't have an issue, with front line police cuts.
If the police had not become a political tool i honestly believe the British public would be in uproar over police numbers being cut.
I also wonder what would happen if we the public decided to protest in London at these cuts (as the students did) would the Police FORCE (it should be a service not a force) use the tactics of Kettling as they use on everyone else?
Due to their own behavior i feel they have lost far to much support from the people they are supposed to protect and serve, and the governBENT no it.

COMMENT 2 BY STEVE IS SPOT ON. I WONT ADD ANYTHING BECAUSE THE MODERATORS KEEP OUSTING MY COMMMENTS.

This is not on; Cameron is ringing the dinner gong for thieves all over the UK.

I'm not totally anti-Cameron but please stop with the cuts already.
You simply create more problems for the future together with the costs they bring.

Start thinking long term dear boy. If cuts are to be made start looking at saving unneccesary expenditure on committees and quangos.

Work WITH the unions. Stop thinking you're a cut above and roll your sleeves up.

I think this is probably ok.

Police can easily move to private sectors and be employed as security guards.

If private sectors take some responsibilities on social security, then the burden on tax payers will be lighter weighted.

From whom are we getting this information? Labour funded research. Hardly a disinterested party - of course they will spin things "their" way - opposition parties have to do that in an adversarial system.

In fairness I don't trust this government either, for largely the same reasons.

I guess we'll find out in time

What with all the gross inefficiency in the police force, I'm positive cuts can me made without affecting the front-line service.

I have the impression that a good proportion of the constabulary budget is spent on things like counselling services and picking binge-drinkers out of the gutters, and not enough is done to recover costs from football clubs and organized marches, where the police can be seen in droves. I wish I could find just one regularly on the beat in the town where I live.

What really bothers me is that, less than 50 years ago, every town and most villages had bobbies walking the streets day and night. They reported to a 24/7 station manned by one or two other, productive, officers and the overall cost was barely noticeable on the council tax bill. 100 years ago, they were in numbers sufficient to be within earshot of each other's whistle. The crime rate has escalated since those halcyon times, owing to leniency by magistrates, the courts and the law generally. Today's offenders know they can get away with anything, but if for a change the law came down on them like a ton of bricks, the streets would soon be cleared and police resources could be better utilized.

Cut down the paperwork, cut out the back-room boys assessing performance and measuring statistics, get officers out of their very expensive-to-buy-and-maintain 4-wheel drives, and put them back on the beat with a proper helmet and truncheon; and no more of this bald-headedness and dressing up like somebody from the SAS. A respectable haircut and a recognizable uniform will do nicely.

We already lack police officers. In some communities, youth have grown up lacking in any accountability for their actions due to the lack of resources to keep them on a reasonable pathway for a decent society. These "feral" youth not only are losing their own futures, perhaps irredeemably, but those of their own children. Moreover, often law-abiding people are being terrorised by these people without any help from the Police, and youths are killing other youths in a "lord of the Flies" type tribal gang warfare (if you doubt this, check out the statistics on teenage murder in London alone last year). A lack of any kind of respect for fellow human beings or society means that these unfortunate people will probably never find enough legal employment to support themselves, and will therefore in claiming benefits all of their lives, continue to be an enormous financial burden on the state. Let us not forget that they themselves will continue to breed and multiply, and become role models for their own children. Reducing the police force even more can have no other effect but to propagate this effect.

This is yet another example of a disasterous policy from this government. If you are going to save money by cutting police, you have to help develop these individuals in other ways, like improving their quality of life, enforcing education until a later age, providing more choices in education, like vocational education for those on benefits etc etc. But this will not occur as it would be even more expensive than maintaining our already overburdened police force. This country is set to become a very difficult place to live in the next few years.

Of course front line policing be protected. The problem is that the police 'force' has too many uniforms doing administators jobs and insufficient doing their proper jobs.
Over the years the police union, the federation, has tried to expand the police role to include all the ancillary work formerly done by lesser paid office staff. The uniformed constable is now a very expensive unit and should not be wasted on menial infra-structure roles but instead on proper police work.
Most other countrys police are divided up into traffic, homicide, vice, etc, as a full time job and their expertise is in whichever sector they are in. We try and make our police constables experts in every sector and then, of course, they have to be paid for each skill they acquire.
We should also have just the one police organisation, the MoD Police are country wide so why can't all other forces be under one hat

I am Police staff and can say that as far as I can see the powers that be are doing EVERYTHING possible to protect officer posts, but inevitably when you cut budgets by a third, you are going to lose some frontline posts. There are many innovative ideas being implemented to save money in ways other than job cutting but when staff salary makes up the bulk of the budget theres only so much you can trim off before you get to the bone.

As far as I can see this is done by natural wastage wherever possible. ie when someone leaves / retires, they are not replaced. A large proportion of these seem to be middle level management.

At the end of the day, the cuts are out of the forces hands. They have been imposed from higher up. All each force can do is do what it can to protect as many posts as possible, both officer and civilian, by saving as much as possible

Officers couldn't do their job effectively without the civilian support staff. This gets forgotten too often, particularly by the media.

At 11:30am on 06 Feb 2011, tobycoulson wrote:
This is based on Labour Party research. I wonder what the actual truth will be?

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Actually it is based on figures provided by the police themselves and is probably a conservative (with a small c) estimate of the damage that will be done.
The Police Federation (that well know supporter of the Labour Party) estimates are in the region of 25,000!

5. At 11:30am on 06 Feb 2011, tobycoulson wrote:

This is based on Labour Party research. I wonder what the actual truth will be?

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Police budgets cut by 20%, it doesn't take a genius to see that front line policing will be cut, whether its 10000 or 5000, the next few years are not a good time to cut policing.

The Labour party must be the most hypercritical bunch of people in the history of the world. If any Labour party MPs are reading this then:

The cuts are Labour's fault; you spent all the money, and you are to blame Mr Brown.

At 11:43am on 06 Feb 2011, Colin wrote:
Despite these Job cuts, I expect next time there is a demonstration in London, the police will still be loyal (stupid?) enough to protect our MP's from the crowd. What a pity that they did not see this coming and let the student protestors have access to their elected representatives to meet them face to face.
Can Cameron/Clegg explain to the public how cutting police numbers is going to help reduce crime?

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The difference between the Police Service and the Condemned government is that the Police Service honours it's promises and responsibilities!

As with all large public organaisations, there will be a very large beurocratic issue of saving, the unfortunate issue will be the same with the police, as with nhs, it is much easier to cut front line staff, as they will be seen as larger in number, although pay, and inability to exactly see what they give or achieve, will not be taken into account.

The whole public services do need a complete re think, starting from top down, analysing what each department does, and amount of overlap of roles takes place. Hence the old story too much paper work that can be made digital, often many stats can also be taken automaticaly by just writing a software programme to monitor certain activities, hence no single person will need to be involved.

With Labour announcing major spending programs when it was in power, which was in many instances fictional, how can anyone believe the propoganda that they put out now they are in opposition. Savings can be made by cutting out the bureaucracy that Labour are so fond of.

Unfortunately Policing has moved off our streets and onto the roads there is more emphasis placed on catching the unsuspecting motorist than real criminals today.

Driving around today through our countryside towns & cities you will see the odd police car may be or the odd Police Officer on foot which is now becoming a rarity, however go onto our motorways or duel carriageways you will find them sitting in lay-bys parked on their high level observation platforms or hiding behind large national direction signs in high powered expensive 4x4s or BMW’s a luxury most of us cannot afford in this country at the moment.

Anyone would think the British Motorist was the number one enemy in this country, if were not at the mercy of our Government we’re at the mercy of our Police Force and the only objective is to gather revenue for the Local Authorities and the Government taxman.

British Policing needs to get back on the streets you cannot gather information or catch anyone in the act of committing a criminal offence sitting behind the wheel of a luxury 4x4, the Police need to get real and come back down to earth in reality as well as practically.

Everyone is facing cut backs at the moment, I personally don’t agree with any cut backs to our Police force as they are a necessary and valuable asset to Britain’s stability, however they really do need to get back to real policing on the ground and move away from the British motorist who they are presently persecuting, they need to do this to obtain support from those they are supposed to protect and serve.

It is we who live in the local villages the inner cities the tower blocks that should be the main concern of our Police Force not the British motorist, society and culture problems are being aggravated by the lack of the visual presence of officers on foot, the Police need to change their tactics until they do and once again become the protectors and servants of society I don’t think they will gather any sympathy from the masses.

Msg #4 CoeurDeHamster.....You couldn't be suggesting the Labour Party and the BBC are giving a biased view - surely not, perish the thought..!

Why is it whenever there are budget cuts the Public Services always shriek about cutting frontline services? It never seems to occur to them to cut admin, bureaucracy and waste which is what's happening at private companies all over the country. Everyone else just gets on with it; why should Public Services be any different?

At 11:56am on 06 Feb 2011, Lynn wrote:
I think this is probably ok.

Police can easily move to private sectors and be employed as security guards.

If private sectors take some responsibilities on social security, then the burden on tax payers will be lighter weighted.


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Nice apart from the huge cut in family incomes this would produce (I take it you are not a police officer) this is akin to saying we can replace hospital Doctors and Nurses with Porters or Prison Officers with Prisoners.
Alternatively perhaps we could ask the criminals to kindly present themselves at the police station after committing a crime!

if there is one public service the torys will protect,it is the police.they always do.they need them and at the rate of vindictiveness this time around they will need them more than their eighties regime of brutality, cuts will be made but frontline troops will not,i repeat not
be affected.when dave is on the beeb showing is love for the people of the middle east in there fight against their uncaring goverment and the
abject poverty they have had to endure,well you watch him change tack when the british people take to the streets to fight for thier communities and familys,when they speak out against is unfair approach to
the relentless attack on the poorest in our society, while the rich carry
on with out a care in the world,NO!they will be no cuts to his police force,he and cleggy need them and i'll tell you this they will earn their overtime payments and bonuses and except them with the same relish
they showed in the eighties.....

As I understand it - the research by Labour was simply by asking the Police Authorities how many front line police THEY would cut. It added to 10,000 - not a spin but a number.

The Tory Oppression say that it is POSSIBLE not to cut 10,000 front-line police - they don't say how - except by some vague reference to cutting back room staff and "savings". Totally ignoring that back room staff are essential to front room staff if the front room staff are going to do their job properly on the front line.

A typical Tory Oppression move - demand the impossible and ignore the consequences. After all it won't effect them in any way - and if it did THEY can afford private protection.

Yet another Tory disaster in the making - and MORE cuts are on the way. Petition your MP to go for a vote of confidence.

Roll on 2015 - Unless total disaster strikes and I fear it will!!!

Does less police mean more crime? I haven't read any research showing that police numbers are related directly to crime figures, however there is a lot of research showing crime is linked to unemployment and poverty. The most respected is probably The ‘Merva-Fowles’ study, done at the University of Utah in the 1990s, it found powerful connections between unemployment and crime. They based their research on 30 major metropolitan areas with a total population of over 80 million.
Their findings found that a 1% rise in unemployment resulted in:
a 6.7% increase in murders;
a 3.4 % increase in violent crimes;
a 2.4 % increase in property crime.
During the period from 1990 to 1992, this translated into:
1459 additional homicides
62,607 additional violent crimes
223,500 additional property crimes
So with rising unemployment, massive job cuts in the public sector and all our economic woes why cut the police? The only reason I can think of is the knock on effect of more crime is a bigger prison population. In this day and age when more of the prison population are being taken care of by private companies it equates to more profit. The Americans know this all too well, that is why they have the biggest prison population as a percentage of population in any "civilised" country. My question is why do we always follow the US's lead and not one of the European countries that have a much smaller percentage of people in prison? It doesn't make economic sense to pay £40,000/year to keep somebody in prison that doesn't need to be there, unless of course someone is making money out of it.

If the beauracracy and form filling is reduced and the police are allow to police then then this will bring efficiencies and the impact of any job losses can be reduced. Also removing the beaucracy will remove the need for the snon-frontline staff.

All government services have room for improved efficiencies and value for money can be provided to the taxpayer.

If the police like many other bureaucratic public organisations abolished the completely unnecesary departments related to ethnic diversity and other such politically correct motivated creations they'd go an awful long way to making the savings required.

"Labour Party research suggests" is the key phrase here. This is only news when it becomes government policy.

We're going round and round in circles here, with Tory opposition blaming Labour for everything - especially too much beauracracy - and then doing NOTHING to change it, except threaten to sack front line staff (as in all Public services). Doubtless, we'll also get "proper" Police Officers criticising PCSOs. For anyone who doesn't know what PCSO stands for its "Police Constable who Steps Out" ie. they actually step out on to the street, and walk round residential streets, unlike "proper" Police officers who either sit behind a desk all day, or get in their van and go and park on the nearest bus stop eating fast food.
What we need is two seperate Law Enforcement Agencies:
A traditional Police Force out preventing and detecting major crime, backed up by a proper judiciary handing out proper sentences - Judges cannot demand witnesses swear to tell the whole truth, and then LIE when they pretend to hand out "Life" sentences - and get rid of the CPS (the Criminal's Protection Service)
Then a second tier combining all these confusing titles; Street Warden, Parking Warden, Traffic Warden etc - who should be out preventing and prosecuting "minor" crime and anti-social behaviour eg. pavement cycling, bus stop blocking, deliberate littering, Noise pollution etc. These should be done with much less tolerance, thus raising much more revenue to be used solely to finance further crime fighting. My local Neighbourhood Officer recently told me that they had clamped down on Pavement cycling and had issued 4 PCNs in a month! He could have issued 4 PCNs every HOUR with a volume crime like this - at least in the short term.

Oh, and let's get rid of that mis-nomer, the British "Transport" Police. Bus passengers don't have their own police force, so why should rail passengers? Sorry, naive question.

With all these cuts everything is being spread thinner and thinner with the consequence that something will have to give. Undoubtedly crime and civil unrest will escalate so if these numbers quoted are correct the police have their work cut out. What we don`t need is for the condems to suddenly realise they made a mistake when the police will be needed the most. The price of everything and the value of nothing. How can you tell when a political ideology has become the equivalent of a religion?

Is crime a natural social anomaly of an inherently flawed system? Check this out!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeiiyWCG-Oc

We are at a point in human history when things are about to change drastically and we are going to need our police and probably military aswell to protect ourselves.This is not a time for decreasing any of our security forces when society has a good chance of imploding in unrest.The fear of these cutbacks at the moment is just a fear.Nothing has happened yet but it will soon and then the reality of our situation will become very clear.Not just losing our jobs,not just having no money in our pockets,not just the loss of our pleasures we have taken for granted but what about the food?What happens when the reality of our future food supply finaly hits home and our shelves start running dry because the worlds food supply has been wiped out by so many natural disasters.This is a big problem coming very soon to our shores and we need all the law we can muster to keep control of what is sure to be a very worrying time for us all regardless of power and wealth.

In the town where I live 200 tyres were slashed (67 vehicles attacked).

Only a token investigation, reports taken.

No government property damaged. No profit to be made from identifying the culprits.

In view of their other activities we Ordinary Decent People would be better off without the po lice.

I am sure that most po lice officers strongly dislike the "policing for profit" policy that the previous regime brought about.

Money can be saved by closing down the oppressive spycam systems including ANPRS and the now discredited Greed Scameras.

My father was a police officer who was not happy about things.

In Labour government time, the managers in public sectors always cut off frontline people to save their own jobs. This may look good in the overall unemployment rate, but the organisations tend not to have any deliverables and managers have no accountability.

“Flat Organization Structure and accountability” is the way to go for public sectors in recession.

Labour should avoid using strike action as a threat too often. In the end of the day, it is all tax payers’ wish that our public sectors can be operated economically and efficiently.

17. At 12:00pm on 06 Feb 2011, max_normal wrote:

This is yet another example of a disasterous policy from this government. If you are going to save money by cutting police, you have to help develop these individuals in other ways, like improving their quality of life, enforcing education until a later age, providing more choices in education, like vocational education for those on benefits etc etc. But this will not occur as it would be even more expensive than maintaining our already overburdened police force. This country is set to become a very difficult place to live in the next few years.

= = = = = = = =

Dear Dear - You can't use logic - understanding and intelligence to address the Tory Oppression's total stupidity.

There is no doubt that falling employment - falling numbers of police - falling welfare - falling education - and falling hope - will give rise to increasing crime - increasing youth crime - increased suicides.

Tory oppression methods of short term saving at the expense of long term future expansion - but as ever a Tory Creed - We're all in this together except the rich.

Hello disaster - Goodbye Hope!!!

So if I do my Labour 1997 to 2010 sums correctly, (I am a paid up member) and in accordance to the rules of the party, only one Police Officer will lose his job in 2 years time, so where do the other 999(9) come from........

This is Labour propaganda pure and simple. The public services are awash with beaurocracy, overmanning of non front line jobs and meeting targets. serious reform is needed now.

34. At 12:27pm on 06 Feb 2011, yellowsandydog wrote:
"Labour Party research suggests" is the key phrase here. This is only news when it becomes government policy.

_________________________________________________________
Sorry, did you mean BBC Goverment Policy

29. At 12:21pm on 06 Feb 2011, bud wrote:
if there is one public service the torys will protect,it is the police.they always do.they need them and at the rate of vindictiveness this time around they will need them more than their eighties regime of brutality, cuts will be made but frontline troops will not,i repeat not
be affected.when dave is on the beeb showing is love for the people of the middle east in there fight against their uncaring goverment and the
abject poverty they have had to endure,well you watch him change tack when the british people take to the streets to fight for thier communities and familys,when they speak out against is unfair approach to
the relentless attack on the poorest in our society, while the rich carry
on with out a care in the world,NO!they will be no cuts to his police force,he and cleggy need them and i'll tell you this they will earn their overtime payments and bonuses and except them with the same relish
they showed in the eighties.....

------------------
I would refer you to my posting No2

Don't think that all or indeed most Police Officers relish the idea of more crime or cutting payments or resources to the rest of the public sector, many police officers are married to other public sector workers (I am married to a Nurse) incidentally police officers don't and never have received bonuses . Your are confusing them with bankers!

Not so much a question of 'Can front line jobs be protected' as front line jobs MUST be protected, no argument Mr. Cameron !
It is quite obvious cuts have to be made but front line jobs particularly in the police force must not be affected. There are many other areas where cuts in the police service can be made
There are too few police officers on the beat as it is. Perhaps it is the right time to question the appointment of these 'pretent' policemen called C.S.O.s.
Let's hear what the Government response is first before we pass judgement on more labour 'spin'.

27
80% of the police budget goes on operational expenditure and police officers pay and pensions you get a 20% cut in funding and any amount of back office tinkering isn't going to stop front line cuts!

Try pruning all the racists, bigots, sexists and plain dishonest cops from their ranks - including those at the very top. Make it an offence (punishable by prison and immediate loss of pension rights) for any police staff to conceal the corruption or racism of colleagues. Employ observers who would check on out-of-office performance and report inefficient deployment, lazy working practices and other misdemeanors. Give the whole bunch of them a lesson in humility. Having sat through a trial recently in which, when the judge made comments regarding the lack of police response to a householder's repeated reports of local teenagers harrassing her, the police officer acting as a witness openly smirked in court. The arrogance of many of them is huge, their corruption embedded and well-known and a thorough overhaul of standards will go a long way to improving their success rates in reduction of crime, without the need for present staffing levels. Allow the remaining good, honest officers to do their jobs well, and gain promotions that they deserve.

More than 10,000 uniformed police officer posts in England and Wales are to be cut over the next two years, Labour Party research suggests. Are cuts being made in the right area?
........

Errrrrrrrrr wakey wakey!! Note 2 points - it's "research" from NewLieMore! The latter is DESPERATE to hit back at the cuts caused by the staggering mess THEY left behind - in case it has slipped their collective tiny red mind - NewLieMore bankrupted the UK!!! Ring any bells Millipede & Balls-up?

Anyway, I would like to see counter "research" from Condem as to how many PCs would be lost had NewLieMore (god forbid) won the GE! By now, the UK would probably be in the hands of the IMF - oh yes....didn't Labour do that before...yep folks NewLieMore would have created an historic moment - going to the IMF twice inside 50 years!

Before HYS starts screaming about this "research" - note that Blair's Broadcasting Company is giving it prominence - the BBC would LOVE to have NewLieMore back in government - allowing them to further their red agenda.

Now let's get real, under this ConDem coalition, if it's a public sector job, then its gonna be under threat.

Any job cuts will have this mythical being known as "The Big Society" put in this place.

What a farce!

30. At 12:22pm on 06 Feb 2011, RichardGrey wrote:
As I understand it - the research by Labour was simply by asking the Police Authorities how many front line police THEY would cut. It added to 10,000 - not a spin but a number.

The Tory Oppression say that it is POSSIBLE not to cut 10,000 front-line police - they don't say how - except by some vague reference to cutting back room staff and "savings". Totally ignoring that back room staff are essential to front room staff if the front room staff are going to do their job properly on the front line.

A typical Tory Oppression move - demand the impossible and ignore the consequences. After all it won't effect them in any way - and if it did THEY can afford private protection.

Yet another Tory disaster in the making - and MORE cuts are on the way. Petition your MP to go for a vote of confidence.

Roll on 2015 - Unless total disaster strikes and I fear it will!!!

.......

Total disaster WILL happen if we get saddled with NewLieMore again - just imagine Balls-up cooking the books, Red Ed (The Talking Union Horse) Millipede wandering aimlessly round Westminster....

27. At 12:18pm on 06 Feb 2011, Mrs Vee wrote:

Msg #4 CoeurDeHamster.....You couldn't be suggesting the Labour Party and the BBC are giving a biased view - surely not, perish the thought..!

Why is it whenever there are budget cuts the Public Services always shriek about cutting frontline services? It never seems to occur to them to cut admin, bureaucracy and waste which is what's happening at private companies all over the country. Everyone else just gets on with it; why should Public Services be any different?

____________________________________________

Because some don't want a public sector, they would rather wash their hands of any responsibility.

26. At 12:17pm on 06 Feb 2011, Steve wrote:

Unfortunately Policing has moved off our streets and onto the roads there is more emphasis placed on catching the unsuspecting motorist than real criminals today.

Driving around today through our countryside towns & cities you will see the odd police car may be or the odd Police Officer on foot which is now becoming a rarity, however go onto our motorways or duel carriageways you will find them sitting in lay-bys parked on their high level observation platforms or hiding behind large national direction signs in high powered expensive 4x4s or BMW’s a luxury most of us cannot afford in this country at the moment.

Anyone would think the British Motorist was the number one enemy in this country, if were not at the mercy of our Government we’re at the mercy of our Police Force and the only objective is to gather revenue for the Local Authorities and the Government taxman.

British Policing needs to get back on the streets you cannot gather information or catch anyone in the act of committing a criminal offence sitting behind the wheel of a luxury 4x4, the Police need to get real and come back down to earth in reality as well as practically.

= = = = = = =

There are more murders on the road (AKA fatal crashes) than the numbers using guns and knives - So the Motorists IS the number one enemy as regards homicides.

I am happy that the police are targeting motorists correctly. They commit an enormous number of law breakings - and they have no excuse.

Leave the poor old house breaker alone who is only trying to get enough to live on.

The first thing to go should be police helicopters. There should be no cuts in police officers until these expensive status symbols are gone. Those advocating getting rid of other staff need to consider what they are saying. Does anyone think how effective a policeman is going to be without control room and communications? Want them to go back to blowing a whistle if they need assistance? Of course if you are not happy with your level of policing you could do as the wealthy - get Group 4 or similar in to boost protection.

This has not been announced. It is not fact, just hearsay.

More evidence of the BBCs left wing bias.

The BBC are a disgrace.

27. At 12:18pm on 06 Feb 2011, Mrs Vee wrote:

Msg #4 CoeurDeHamster.....You couldn't be suggesting the Labour Party and the BBC are giving a biased view - surely not, perish the thought..!

Worse than that Mrs Vee – I am suggesting that everyone with a vested interest in this – Police, Politicians (of all colours and hues), BBC et al will massage the figures to their own benefit and the detriment of the truth.

Why is it whenever there are budget cuts the Public Services always shriek about cutting frontline services? It never seems to occur to them to cut admin, bureaucracy and waste which is what's happening at private companies all over the country. Everyone else just gets on with it; why should Public Services be any different?

I tend to agree - but the first reaction to any suggestion of budget cuts is always a shriek. The problem is that the one who shrieks the loudest tends to get listened to most.

Many policemen are topping up thier wages with significant overtime payments, the hours they also work seem far less than us commoners.

I would prefer the cuts from the bloated over paid civil service and armed service elite. This where we have more admirals that ships.

To trust labour would be bankrupt this country. Sadly many people just blame the tories for everything and forget Labour had many years to put things right....

Yes, all they need to do is speed up the paperwork side of the job. Fairly recently I was a witness to a crime, the culprit was picked up in a matter of minutes by the police yet we spent over an hour at the police station giving statements.
They should also try to avoid the silly things that the police get involved in such as checking bus tickets which is something that can be seen regularly in London and can easily be outsourced to private security companies if it is really such a problem. It seems mad that people will remain the victims of unsolved crimes and the lack of police presence in some areas will put people at risk yet the bus companies are happy because everyone has a valid ticket.

43. At 12:40pm on 06 Feb 2011, Lynn from Sussex wrote:

This is Labour propaganda pure and simple. The public services are awash with beaurocracy, overmanning of non front line jobs and meeting targets. serious reform is needed now.

___________________________________________

Well if this is all simply 'Labour Propaganda' as you say, why are over 500,000 public sector redundancies of which many are front-line NHS positions being cut?

You're right a serious reform is needed, but it has to start be ensuring that front-line public services are protected from down-grading and privatisation.

42. At 12:38pm on 06 Feb 2011, Rays a Larf wrote:

So if I do my Labour 1997 to 2010 sums correctly, (I am a paid up member) and in accordance to the rules of the party, only one Police Officer will lose his job in 2 years time, so where do the other 999(9) come from........

= = = = = ==
Please publish you membership number - as I have a credability problem.

And reference for your "Labour 1997 to 2010 sums" please

This is the first step to "Rent a bobby" you will be able to pay the wages' to keep your gated commuity safe or a private estate. The Criminals will have a great time in the U.K. unless many private police forces' are allowed to take up the slack? but who will pay for that not the Council or private companys? unless theres' a deal?

50. At 12:48pm on 06 Feb 2011, Joe wrote:

Now let's get real, under this ConDem coalition, if it's a public sector job, then its gonna be under threat.

Any job cuts will have this mythical being known as "The Big Society" put in this place.

What a farce!

--------------------------------

Henceforth it`s to be known as "The Big Sobriety"

43. At 12:40pm on 06 Feb 2011, Lynn from Sussex wrote:

This is Labour propaganda pure and simple. The public services are awash with beaurocracy, overmanning of non front line jobs and meeting targets. serious reform is needed now.

= = = = = = = =

Sadly for you Oh Condem one - It is not only Labour party research but a number of other organisations that agree with the Labour Figures -

Though I suppose the truth can be propaganda to some people.

I doubt we will see any difference. If you call them now you get a visit a few days later and they give you a number you can quote to make an insurance claim.

I am still trying to work out why the country has a fixation on 'front line Policing' coupled with 'Bobby on the Beat'. A few minutes study of arrest rates, for real crime not targets, and at real work rates , will show that the LEAST effective usage of a Police Officer is to put them to walk the beat.
The real Police work of protecting the public from cime is carried out by a combination of Uniform officers going from urgent call to urgent call by car, coupled with detailed work by Detectives where crimes have been committed. THe High Visibility Bobby simply suppresses offences for the few seconds that they are in view. It is the detection and punishment of crime, and offences of all types, that works. Much of the reduction in the number of burglaries is due siply to better design of houses and factories.
To reduce drunkeness is a simple matter, the Courts need to impose suitable penalties, with the CPS agreeing to actually prosecute drunks in the first place. As an example:- in 1969 the fine for D+D in Andover was £25 over one weeks wage for a Lorry driver. Recently for the same offence in Portsmouth the fine was £60, about the same as one nights bar bill!
In the thirty years I spent as a Uniform Patrol Officer I only managed to walk into a crime in progrees ONCE, whilst using vehicles I detected and prevented many crimes. In one town the crime rate dropped by 30% when the much despised Panda cars were introduced, whilst the detection rate rose by 15%. Previously the Town had been Policed by Bobbies on the beat, with ever increasing crime and disorder rates. It was rapid response by officers in vehicles that did the trick.

My father was both a Detective in the Met, and later a village bobby. AS a DC his work rate was 2 (TWO) crimes a month, about the same number an average PC now attends per shift. As a Village bobby , on a bicycle, his response time to serious crime could be 2-3 hours at best, more often 24 hours+. When I was on Foot Patrol in Aldershot during the daytime the shoplifters were detained by shop based security men, during the evenings the disorder in pubs was supressed by Police in vans with back up by the Military Police.
Perhaps the best example I can give of the waste of resources embodied by the Bobby on the beat was the night I was on foot patrol on Commercial Road Portsmouth, in company with an Assistant chief Constable. We heard, but could not see, a window go in just round the corner, we ran to the noise. No-one was in sight, but a shop window had been smashed, and property stolen. The HIgh Vis Police presence had prevented nothing. It was good work by CID that led to the arrest of the criminals.
The civilianisation of the job has gone to dangerous lengths, there was even the threat recently of a strike by civilian staff in control rooms.
There is a place for ALL types of Policing , but do not dismiss the need for those officers who do not work in the public glare. Policing is about so much more than shaking door handles.

"13. At 11:55am on 06 Feb 2011, Malcolm Pearson wrote:

Start thinking long term dear boy. If cuts are to be made start looking at saving unneccesary expenditure on committees and quangos.

Work WITH the unions. Stop thinking you're a cut above and roll your sleeves up"

---------------

If I remember correctly, Government Quangos went through a big cut a good few months ago.

And working with unions? It's a bit tricky, considering the line from the majority of them is that they won't talk unless cuts are stopped. It's not easy asking what cuts are acceptable when they say all are unacceptable.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

55. At 12:57pm on 06 Feb 2011, Andy wrote:

This has not been announced. It is not fact, just hearsay.

More evidence of the BBCs left wing bias.

The BBC are a disgrace.

---------------------------------------

It appears to be front page news on skys news website too. Hardly BBC bias.

54. At 12:56pm on 06 Feb 2011, North Briton wrote:

The first thing to go should be police helicopters. There should be no cuts in police officers until these expensive status symbols are gone. Those advocating getting rid of other staff need to consider what they are saying. Does anyone think how effective a policeman is going to be without control room and communications? Want them to go back to blowing a whistle if they need assistance? Of course if you are not happy with your level of policing you could do as the wealthy - get Group 4 or similar in to boost protection.

= = = = = = = =

Police Helicopters have been shown to be very effective in combating crime - far more effective than a few extra police car units.

Sadly a "bobby on the beat" is not the only solution to combating crime - but reducing the numbers of police is certainly a way of increasing crime.

"Can front-line police jobs be protected"? is the HYS question.

Apparently not, according to news reports? Front line workers such as qualified and experienced nurses, paramedics and fire-fighters are losing their jobs too.

Can front-line police jobs be protected?
10:57 UK time, Sunday, 6 February 2011

More than 10,000 uniformed police officer posts in England and Wales are to be cut over the next two years, Labour Party research suggests. Are cuts being made in the right area?
/////////////////

I see that the BBC, the communications arm of the Labour Party is working overtime since they got kicked out at the last election.

Does the Labour Party press office give these questions to HYS to pose I wonder?

Having once worked for the police I suggest that before front line jobs go they make any savings in the unnecessary layers of petty bureaucracy and adminstration, whereby officers spend more time in the station than on the street.

Just another cut to kick society where it hurts. I would have thought that with so much unrest in the country at the moment, MORE front line officers would be needed.
I suppose ministers and royalty will still have ample protection from our dwindling police service, but not poor old 'Joe Public'.
Big Thank You to our gloroius ConDem 'government'.

55. At 12:57pm on 06 Feb 2011, Andy wrote:

This has not been announced. It is not fact, just hearsay.

More evidence of the BBCs left wing bias.

The BBC are a disgrace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally unreasonable to speculate that tories would cut police numbers, after all, they promised to ring fence the armed forces and the NHS and they didn't renege on that did they?
Shrewd observation Andy.

22. Yes you have got it all wrong. The "blame game" is largely irrelevant. The one consolation for law-abiding, working Northerners in having a Tory Government was that they were the "party of Law & Order". THEY are the hypocrits now, for abandoning this belief, and cutting Police numbers, while "hugging" hoodies, and thinking the constant bullying of disable people is "a laugh" (Ken Clarke).

40. Lynn. Exactly the same thing happens under Tory Governments. My brother and I work in different public services, but both are seeing front line sub £20k staff threatened with redundancy (or accelerated exit, as it is no called), whilst employing arrogant ignoramuses with no experience of the sector they are working in, as £100k+ managers.

FTR, I don't make a party political point. I am a law abiding, non-motorist from a northern Overspill estate, so all three major parties have proved hippocritcal liars over the last quarter of a century, and my politics are deemed extreme left today - I was regarded as a "moderate" in the 1980s.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.....as long as it doesn't cost any money!! Let's face it - it would hardly be a shock if this bunch of clots performed yet another flagrant u turn - they used to think locking people up was a good idea but they seem to have gone off that idea now as well.
Tories - what a joke.

The cut in the budget is way to big. 80% of police budgets are spent on wages for all staff. The government keep mention they are going to protect front line services and that the cuts should be made in ways that the front line service is not effective. This simply can not be done. My force for example are going to loose loads of experienced officer by regulation A19 (forced retirement). They have already cut the amount of marked vehicles avaliable for response officers to use. Loads of Police staff positions have gone or going and there duties are being forced upon response and neighborhood teams who already have a high work load.

"...Labour Party research suggests." - BBC.
---------------------------------

???
I didn't know there was any.
I thought it was still a blank sheet of paper.

57. At 1:00pm on 06 Feb 2011, Slave to the System - I am not a number wrote:

Many policemen are topping up thier wages with significant overtime payments, the hours they also work seem far less than us commoners.

I would prefer the cuts from the bloated over paid civil service and armed service elite. This where we have more admirals that ships.

To trust labour would be bankrupt this country. Sadly many people just blame the tories for everything and forget Labour had many years to put things right...

= = = = = = = = =

One - the reason for overtime is the lack of police personnel

Two - Sadly too many forget that the Tories had far more years to mess up the country BEFORE Labour came into power. Much of that time Labour was redressing the imbalance caused by Tory policies.

Labour were putting it right but it takes far longer to build a balanced society than to knock it down.

Tories knock it down - Bankers bankrupted us not Labour. (and reward themselves for doing so)

Labour builds

67. At 1:13pm on 06 Feb 2011, Starry Eyed And Laughing wrote:
22. At 12:14pm on 06 Feb 2011, HaveIGotThatWrong wrote:

HaveIGotThatWrong. Yes you have.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I was under the impression that Labour went on a massive spending spree, pouring billions down the drain, safe in the knowledge that someone else was going to have to sort out the mess it left. So, thanks for correcting my mistake.

53: The Police are NOT targeting criminal motorists correctly - nor are local authorities. The Police are too busy targeting motorists doing 78 mph on a 70 mph, where there are NO pedestrians around, but won't target motorists doing 45 in 30 zones or speeding round city centre corners with mobile in one hand and cigarette in the other. Similarly, local authorities target motorists who park a couple of minutes too long on a safe and legal meter, whilst ignoring motorists/commercial vehicles/security vans/taxis (esp. Private Hire...or minicabs as they are known in London) blocking bus stops. This includes the same offenders blocking the same stops at the same times, day after day for years/decades. Actually, there is a racist element to this (if the M.E.N is to be believed). The only motorists ever fined for parking on bus stops in Manchester are foreign footballers in the plush part of town where no-one actually uses buses.

The fact that huge job losses are predicted implies the police service is working at 100% efficiency and can in no way can find any cost savings - does this sound true?

Less police.

Less jobs.

More yobs.

More stealing and desperate people.

This country's sinking down the toilet real fast.

Thanks alot, Mr Cameron.

41. At 12:35pm on 06 Feb 2011, RichardGrey wrote:
17. At 12:00pm on 06 Feb 2011, max_normal wrote:
This is yet another example of a disasterous policy from this government. If you are going to save money by cutting police, you have to help develop these individuals in other ways, like improving their quality of life, enforcing education until a later age, providing more choices in education, like vocational education for those on benefits etc etc. But this will not occur as it would be even more expensive than maintaining our already overburdened police force. This country is set to become a very difficult place to live in the next few years.
= = = = = = = =
Our government of the rich for the rich aren't stupid. We are here on this planet with enough resources for all to prosper. However, it isn't happening as the system encourages social stratification through the hording of said resources. The madness that legitimises the rush to acquire more money for money's sake is the main cause of all our social ills. It ultimately leads to the poor having to sacrifice themselves in meaningless wars or starving quietly to keep the system going. Adam Smith saw this when he wrote in The Wealth of Nations: Every species of animals naturally multiplies in proportion to the means of their subsistence, and no species can ever multiply be yond it. But in civilized society, it is only among the inferior ranks of people that the scantiness of subsistence can set limits to the further multiplication of the human species; and it can do so in no other way than by destroying a great part of the children which their fruitful marriages produce.
We are being set up for war. Massive profits for those involved and a thinning out of populations, the system that benefits only those at the top remains intact. You think I am mad? Check it out for yourselves. War is a racket:https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

First define the "Front Line". This must really reflect the priorities of the majority, but certainly not all, UK citizens and certainly not some self opinionated PC quango. There are no doubt diverse opinions but my "Front Line" is anti terrorism, crime against persons and their property and public order. Thats it. Don't need the police for anything else. Only the minority care about policing traffic so we can't afford to pay for the many two constable teams roaming around in BMW X5s et al, helicopters and dog handlers chasing kids in souped up Polos etc. Exciting for them but poor value for tax payers money. So scrap the Traffic Divisions. Paperwork; the public never see the countless reams of forms and returns now required through audit trails just to please minority groups and government statiticians in our society. Scrap the audit trails, we don't care about statistics, save time and put up with the odd imperfection and spend more time on "Front Line" policing. But most of all, the simplest but most effective savings can be made to return our police officers to good old fashioned policing and let others worry about social work.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

66. At 1:12pm on 06 Feb 2011, Mr Max wrote:

"13. At 11:55am on 06 Feb 2011, Malcolm Pearson wrote:

Start thinking long term dear boy. If cuts are to be made start looking at saving unneccesary expenditure on committees and quangos.

Work WITH the unions. Stop thinking you're a cut above and roll your sleeves up"

---------------

If I remember correctly, Government Quangos went through a big cut a good few months ago.

= = = = = = = = = =

And there hasn't been time for the actual effects of the cuts to effect their areas of influence. Hence yet another disaster to happen.

And I would definitely communicate with the unions - but they do NOT like cuts being imposed without consultation = exactly what the Condems have done. Just like the Tory Oppression of Old.

The lack of management communication skills are at the root of most Industrial Srikes and Unrest. As is the general refusal of Management to share profits with the workers by pay rises,

Just what do you expect from Labour Party research into this matter! Get real! As I have commented before in this forum, I am convinced that the Home Dept Police Forces (HDPF) can do more to help themselves minimise cuts in the front line. (1) Do we really need to retain 43 separate police forces in England, each with its HQ, top posts(Ch Constable/Deputy/Asst) and associated support staff and bureaucracy. Amalgamation into larger forces, based on ACPO Regions, or at least far greater pooling of resources and a common equipment procurement system should be given serious consideration. (2) Government should cut back on much of the bureaucracy it imposes on police forces, by way of targets and returns etc, thereby reducing the size of offices of statistics at HQs. I realise Labour are just making mischief; after all that is the nature of opposition politics, however silly and childish it may seem.

Seems to me that with the number of people about to lose their jobs and others getting thrown off benefits there's going to be a lot more petty crime in the next few years. We would need more Police, not less.
In St Helens we don't see any Police from one week to another. There are quite a few of those Community Officers around the shops but we don't know what's happened to the real qualified Police Officers. Are they in cars waiting for speeding cars?
Twice last summer I saw a Police van with 4-5 uniformed and plain clothed Police in it. Nothing as yet this year.
In the 1950s and 60s a big Uniformed Policeman used to walk down the street about every couple of hours.
Why can't that good Policing be offered nowadays?

i saw 5 officers near our house yesterday operating a speed camera, i thought there was a shortage of officers, there are no problems with excessive speed there, no schools, no crossing, as it has been proved there is no reduction in accidents with speed cameras why does it need 5 of them wasting time on this, doesnt sound like they are short of officers to me

Perhaps police resources could be more beneficially employed.
For example, is it necessary to treat road accidents as crime scenes with roads closed for very long periods while a large number of "experts" record all the "forensics"? I think not.
Drug-related crime (i.e. by addicts to gain money to feed their habit) would be eliminated if drugs were legalised and supplied at the local chemist shop. The need of many front-line police would diminish as a consequence.

53. At 12:54pm on 06 Feb 2011, RichardGrey wrote
I am happy that the police are targeting motorists correctly. They commit an enormous number of law breakings - and they have no excuse.
Leave the poor old house breaker alone who is only trying to get enough to live on.

My deepest apologies Richard I am so un-thoughtful, it never entered my mind to think that more Police on our streets would effect your profession I apologise reservedly lol.

No point complaining now. Surely we all know what happens when you get a Tory governmnet? They hate public services. Dont like paying for them. Could not care less about ordinary people who must use and need them. So 10,000 police jobs are going. Its what you voted for. Or did you believe what that nice Mr Cameron said. He would support front line services. Only cut the paperwork. Cor. You have to be niave to believe that. He is the son of Thatcher. A millionare. He wont worry about yobs outside your house throwing bricks at your window. What about all the nurses jobs that too will go? No. Sorry. Crocodle tears about the cuts dont wash. If you voted Tory or Lib Dem, this is what you get.

52. At 12:50pm on 06 Feb 2011, Joe wrote:

27. At 12:18pm on 06 Feb 2011, Mrs Vee wrote:

Msg #4 CoeurDeHamster.....You couldn't be suggesting the Labour Party and the BBC are giving a biased view - surely not, perish the thought..!

Why is it whenever there are budget cuts the Public Services always shriek about cutting frontline services? It never seems to occur to them to cut admin, bureaucracy and waste which is what's happening at private companies all over the country. Everyone else just gets on with it; why should Public Services be any different?

____________________________________________

Because some don't want a public sector, they would rather wash their hands of any responsibility.

= = = = = = = =

Well said that man!!!

That is at the root of much of the Condem's policy - Just as it was under the old Tory Oppression - Sell it off - not our responsibility - But when it goes wrong - prop it up and blame the poor.

Fairly sure they have been cut already. Last time I saw a policeman it was on telly doing crowd control, or filming soccer fans on the way to a match.

Not entirely sure they have beats, and know how to walk any distance these days so not sure whether to be worried that there is 10,000 less of them.

Is BBC working for Labour Party propaganda?

Your headlines are designed to make look as if the figure of 10,000 is from an actual government decision, not just some say so from an opposition party.

83. At 1:41pm on 06 Feb 2011, Brian wrote:

The fact that huge job losses are predicted implies the police service is working at 100% efficiency and can in no way can find any cost savings - does this sound true?

= = = = = = =

No - it is because the Tory Oppression are going to impose a 20% cut in Police Budget - and the Police predict that to achieve that cut 10.000 front line jobs will have to go.

The Tory Opression disagree because they don't care about front line jobs lost. They're use private police that the poor can't afford when everything falls over.
.

The answer is simple. If our police officers spent more time on the beat, keeping our communities safe, and less time filling out forms, meeting the rules and regulations of our imperial masters in Brussels and adhering to that atrocious monster that the European Court of Human Rights has become. Money can be saved in these areas - preventing the need for cuts. Uniformed staff should not be spending time and tax-payers money on form filling.

Cutting front line officers, inspectors and detectives is suicidal - with the EUHR and liberty for criminals rules preventing us from taking action to protect ourselves and property, crime will become rife if you take the beat police away.

There are other ways - Europe may not like it if we ditch their (and hence our old governments) lorry loads of form fillingbut so what, we can leave that pesky nonsense of unelected beaurocrats.

81. At 1:37pm on 06 Feb 2011, HaveIGotThatWrong wrote:

67. At 1:13pm on 06 Feb 2011, Starry Eyed And Laughing wrote:
22. At 12:14pm on 06 Feb 2011, HaveIGotThatWrong wrote:

HaveIGotThatWrong. Yes you have.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I was under the impression that Labour went on a massive spending spree, pouring billions down the drain, safe in the knowledge that someone else was going to have to sort out the mess it left. So, thanks for correcting my mistake.
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I think it's debatable to suggest the money spent on bailing out the banks was money down the drain - although I have to accept that the perennial arrogance that characterises these white collar wide boys appears fully intact - lessons clearly not learned.