Borderline

Roughly along the Tamar, why are we having this debate?

Like all the counties of England there have been some minor variances over the years.

Dave the rave wrote:
why are we having this debate?

To fill your boots Dave without going off topic LOL

Cornwall's border with Devon is where it is. How did it get there? Does it matter? And if so, why? No excuse for going off-topic. Fill your boots.

Nice one for bringing up these debate Graham, it is about time we thought long and hard about our border and what makes it so important to Cornwall.

Well how it got there, was in 936AD after centuries of intermittent conflict between the invaders from Europe and the native people of the British Isles. The Germanic invaders (Saxons in this case Wessex) fought there way west wiping out the Celtic Britons and forcing them further and further west and to Brittany. After many heroic battles the people -that we now know as Cornish- were defeated by the king of Wessex; Athelstan. They were evicted from Exeter -where they had lived in peace side by side with the Saxons- and Athelstan and his men ethnically cleansed Devon of its Celtic inhabitants. And so the Celtic Britons were confined to the land west of the Tamar and so in 936AD Cornwall by and large was formed and has stood unaltered to this day.

Does it matter? well yes for the centuries that would pass after 936 the people west of the Tamar would continue to speak their native Celto-Brythonic tongue whilst east the people would speak English. To the east of the Tamar, Devon along with the rest of Wessex came to rule over all the English peoples and the land of England was formed. Whilst west the Cornish were left largely to their own devices, church services where in Cornish and everyone from the common people through to the gentry spoke that language. This difference was enshrined in the Earldom and later Duchy of Cornwall and the phrase Anglia et Cornubia was the official term, for Cornwall was within the realm of the ruling Royal House but not of the same kingdom. So much like Wales and England are seperate places this is also true of Cornwall.

History aside, in the here and now these historical factors are very important the people of Devon and Cornwall are distinct and different. Perhaps more importantly in terms of place the south west of England has become very rich, it has been well managed by the state and enjoys a very healthy GDP. In comparison the Tamar marks an economic cliff, despite the cost of living being remarkably similar, Cornwall is much poorer than the South West of England. This side we qualified for objective one funding the other side has nowhere near that level of poverty.

The reason that Devonwall matters and should be fought against by all those who have Cornwall's best interests at heart is thus threefold. Historically we are a Duchy
we have always been considered seperate to ancient Wessex, we are the Cornish people descended from the people who have lived on this land for millenia, they the newcomers (in relative terms) are different to us, no better no worse but different.

Culturally the Cornish are distinct people as distinct a difference as can be found between Carlisle and Gretna and that can be found between Chester and Wrexham. Yet they are protected and our much older frontier is not.

If you are not convinced by these arguments consider this; Cornwall is economically different to South West England, we are not comparable to Plymouth or Exeter or Barnstaple in terms of general economics or wage levels. If the border between Cornwall and Devon becomes more blurred we will become less visible and the government will care even less. For years and years administration and management in the public sector has sought Devonwall solutions. Offices and headquarters have moved east, this has undermined the Cornish economy and continued the vibrance of Devon's. In short we pay for Devon to administer us, Cornish money flows to Exeter and Plymouth making the economic gap between the two wider and wider. If we accept political Devonwall and if it is foistered upon us this process will continue and gather pace and Cornwall will look forward to always being the poor neighbour of Devon. Then we can say good bye to European money and the Cornish economy and industry will continue it's downward spiral.

It's actually Cornwall's inter-national border with England, Mr Smith.
What a basic and amateur error for a British(not English) Broadcasting Corporation 'investigative' 'journalist'/'reporter' of considerable chronological maturity to make.
You appear to have prepositioned yourself. Tut tut.

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It can not be links because Trembath yesterday posted 40 in a row yesterday or is he in the driving seat, my comment was evidence the parish of maker was in Devon and for the 20th time it has been removed, my comment contained no emotion just facts from the web which took some to gather

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Put your case Peter nothing more nothing less, the truth will prevail.

“Cornwall's border with Devon is where it is” or put it another way “Devon’s border with Cornwall is where it is” take your pick, it is a boundary between two counties, as this country of ours is divided into counties. But as we all know in the European Parliament our beloved counties have become “districts” and the borders are different.

Tregantle, looking at the time scale between your first, removed post, and your complaint post, it would suggest that it was the House Moderators that found something wrong with it. They will have sent you an e-mail indicating the reason for its removal.
The links I posted yesterday, were all to different threads in this blog, indicating that there had been plenty of opportunity to discuss this issue in the past, and that it was not necessary to keep repeating yourselves on every thread you thought you could get away with.
Try rewriting your post, with the information you will have received by now via e-mail, so that we can see, and debate what you feel you have found.

Now, about the Tamar, and the Cornish National Border.
"The Tamar's source is less than 6 km (4 miles) from the north Cornish coast, but it flows southward. At its mouth, the Tamar flows into the Hamoaze before entering Plymouth Sound. Tributaries of the river include the rivers Inny, Ottery, Kensey and Lynher (or St Germans River) on the Cornish side, and the Deer and Tavy on the Devon side." From here:-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Tamar

The parish of Maker has a border with Plymouth Sound, not the River Tamar.

So, the question is, what is your point anyway?

The River Tamar was, and still is, the ancient national boundary of Cornwall.

My next few comments will be facts (times, dates and location) of when Devon was witin cornwall lets see what happens. All on topic, no mention of polictics, people or mantras

On the very tip of South east Cornwall the parish of Maker was until 1877 in Devon

Genuki Website for evidence

"MAKER parish, which occupies a great part of the bold promontory and peninsula, which juts out into the English Channel on the west side of Plymouth Sound, and the south side of the harbour of Hamoaze, opposite Stonehouse and Devonport, is partly in Cornwall, and contains 2725 inhabitants and 2260 acres of land, of which 1156 souls and about 1320 acres are in VAULTERSHOME tithing, which is in Devonshire"

Famously a plaque at central point between the twin villages of Kingsand and Cawsand formed this border

The twin towns were famous for smuggling with many tunnels now sealed up

All the information confirms that when people say the Tamar is the border, it actually was not until 1844

Check out Wikipedia for futher reading the information is free for all to access

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It is worth adding for those who study history

In 1844 Cawsand was called Turk Town and Kingsand was called North Rockers

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The Cornish nationalist's fail to understand the border was actually set when the English counties were created, prior to this no official border existed and Cornwall was just a tribe who spent as much time in Devon near Exeter as they did west of the Tamar. A few think because the Saxons temporally stopped at the Tamer when they drove the Celts out of the west country that this was the official border, but in truth the Saxon army pushed deep into Cornwall

The first account of the Tamar being used as border was when the English county was created

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OK I can only see two features I wish to add, both relate to mount Edgecoombe which is in the Parish of maker

ONE
In 1971 mount Edgecoombe house together with 865 acres was sold to Cornwall County and Plymouth City Councils. It has been open to the general public on a regular basis since 1988.

TWO
The argument for Devon’s claim on the pasty: there are four key lines of text which refer to the financial cost of making a pasty, using venison from the Mount Edgcumbe estate just across the Tamar River in Devon. These lines date back to 1510, while according to the Cornwall Record Office, its earliest record of a pasty recipe was in 1746. Meaning that Devon’s pasty is 200 years older. Although the clinching argument is very simple, this is a Cornish Pasty, made from the oldest recipe known to us, not a reference to a pasty we know nothing about and therefore cannot make.

What I find funny here is the words - across the Tamar River in Devon -, as we know it is not, thus this amazing dilemma is created and Devons claim to the pasty, but clear clarification that again Maker, and mount edgecoombe were considered to be in Devon, I have others but like this the best.

We could now move onto the imaginary Celtic border which is more treacherous than the historical one, because you would have to define a set period in time as to when West Wales became Cornwall and history shows us it was when the English counties were created, because Devon is as Celtic as Cornwall until this shires were created. This has already been debated here and it was discovered impossible to define because as the Saxons pushed down separating West and North Wales the border was forever decreasing.

Fact remains until the Shires were created the Celtic border was slowly moving down the west country

Hmm, we'll see what "further consideration" reveals.

To repeat, from Wikki, a simple search will find it.
The River Tamar:-
"At its mouth, the Tamar flows into the Hamoaze before entering Plymouth Sound."
The Parish of Maker is nowhere near the Tamar, and is bordered on one side by Plymouth Sound.

So, again I ask, What is the point that is trying to be made here?

Athelstan set the border between Wessex and Cornwall as the East bank of the River Tamar. The Tamar is the ancient National boundary of Cornwall.
The Saxons stopped their "push" at the Eastern bank of the Tamar.
The Fact is that since half way through the 10th century, over 1,000 years, the Border between Cornwall and England has been the Tamar. To the best of my knowledge the oldest national boundary in Europe, if not the world.

So says the users of C24 but not history

So the stumbling block is the virtual Celtic border, fact is the historical border of the Tamar never existed as Kingsand and the parish of Maker proves. If people need to check wiki they should check kingsand entry here

Kingsand (Cornish: Porthmyghtern) and Cawsand are twin villages in southeast Cornwall, United Kingdom[1]. The villages are situated on the Rame Peninsula and in the parish of Maker-with-Rame.
Until boundary changes in 1844 Kingsand was in 'DEVON'; Cawsand, however, was always in Cornwall. On the old county boundary between the two villages there is still a house called Devon Corn, which has the marker on the front of the house. The villages are popular with tourists but retain their traditional character.

I have visited the place so know it is real whereas the Celtic border is a work of fiction

I think I recall Peter said he has a degree in History, good enough for me

Only line anyone needs to read is "Until boundary changes in 1844 Kingsand was in Devon"

Picture an Act of Parliament as a sheet of paper, freshly printed and passed around the UK for all to see and obey. When that sheet of paper reaches the east bank of the river Tamar it loses all constitutional significance, effect and power - until it has received the express approval of the Duke and his Duchy government. Once approved, it will have lawful effect in Cornwall. This is a British constitutional fact: running around with snippets of small historic adjustments at Parish level is pointless in comparison.

Simply put.. Acts of parliament need additional and separate authorisation in order for them to cross the Tamar and remain lawfully valid.

It seems to be a very significant boundary, to those at the very top of the pyramid of power..

Who are we mere subjects to disagree with them?

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"So says the users of C24 but not history"
Perhaps the Kernowphobe would like to explain which bits of my post he disagrees with, and why?

All you have to do is read; they are all above

You are just disrupting the threads by any means possible when people are trying to debate something serious in an adult factual manner, I requested this chance and thanks to Graham he has allowed it

As Maker and Kingsand were in Devon it is impossible for the Tamar to be used as a Cornish border.

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
2As Maker and Kingsand were in Devon it is impossible for the Tamar to be used as a Cornish border."
Follow the link that I posted that has now been allowed, and you will see that as Maker and Kingsand do not border the Tamer, then your argument that they were at one time in Devon so that it is "imposable" for the Tamar to be the border is totally irrelevant.
The mouth of the River Tamar is at Hamoaze, Maker and Kingsand border Plymouth Sound. Your argument falls.
As Maker and Kingsand do not border the River Tamar, it is imposable to use them as an argument against the Tamar being the ancient National Border of Cornwall.

Posting a different opinion is not "disrupting threads", posting comments like "So says the users of C24 but not history" is. You requested the chance to debate this subject, then debate it, do not insult and abuse those you disagree with.

As Maker and Kingsand were in Devon it is impossible for the Tamar to be used as a Cornish border.

Exactly, ignore the attention seeker

I am not even going to bother dignifying the stupid games of this person with a response when his own link which he believes hold the key counters his own comment

"…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…"

In formulating his argument that the Tamar was a not an ancient border he harassed the mods to return his link which stated

"…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…"

Under Wiki Tamar you will read it under can you guess?

Borders

It is amazing; he is pulling the MK Devonwall apart like a sherman tank. He thought we only had one example. So tried some crazy word spin that Kingsand was not next to the Tamar but the sea, its still to the west of the Tamar!

Andrew Jacks wrote:-
"As Maker and Kingsand were in Devon it is impossible for the Tamar to be used as a Cornish border.

Exactly, ignore the attention seeker"

As Maker and Kingsand do not border the River Tamar, it is imposable to use them as an argument against the Tamar being the ancient National Border of Cornwall.

Whether they were/are in Devon, or Outer Mongolia, they have no relevance to the Tamar Question.

Being rude will not change that.

Here is the problem trying to talk to the likes of trembath, he spends all day demanding we read his link then ignores it when he proves himself to know nowt

Here is what he wants us to read - his fact

"…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…"

As we know he only comes here to cause trouble

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"In formulating his argument that the Tamar was a not an ancient border he harassed the mods to return his link which stated"

a/ I have never "formulated" an "argument that the Tamar was a not an ancient border", Proof reading your posts prior to posting them may help.

b/ I did not "harass" anyone. Is it not about time you learnt that making false accusations against other posters is only going to create ill feeling, and argument. You might think it is clever, but it only shows you up for what you really are.

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
""…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…""

Well done, now, can you tell us when they "became" part of Devon, and do you recall the press coverage, and the rejoicing in that part of Cornwall, when Cornish land was returned to Cornwall?

Since the mid 10th century, the Tamar has been the Cornish National Border. There have been the odd occasion when it was encroached on, but as is the case today, with the KCW campaign, each encroachment was fought, and reversed, eventually.

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"It is amazing; he is pulling the MK Devonwall apart like a sherman tank. He thought we only had one example. So tried some crazy word spin that Kingsand was not next to the Tamar but the sea, its still to the west of the Tamar!"

Thank you, I am glad to be pulling Devonwall apart, and would do so even if it did belong to MK. Kingsand is not on the Tamar, the fact that it is west of the Tamar is, once more, relevant. There are parts of Plymouth, including much of the Docks, that also lie west of the Tamar, would that mean that you think I am claiming them as Cornish?

Oh, and by the way, thank you for dignifying my post with a response.

"…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…"

For future reference does anyone know the names of these villages?

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What have the AJ/YC/PT/DtR consortium got to say about the roughly 700 year old static and fixed border of the constitutionally defined territory titled The Duchy Of Cornwall? At all, at all, at all.......?

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

AC: The duchy own large areas of Dartmoor........east of the Tamar, so by the consortium argument that just because some house's north of Launceston are on the west side and in Devon, surely by this argument baring in mind Cornwall is a duchy, and the duchy is Cornwall, large areas of Dartmoor are in Cornwall too....I don't see it but by their argument it must be true

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Land owned by the Duchy outside of Cornwall does not form part of the territory of the Duchy of Cornwall.

If a person dies intestate on Duchy property on Dartmoor the estate goes to the Crown.

If a person dies intestate within the territorial boundary of the Duchy of Cornwall, whose borders are the Tamar, then the estate goes to the Duchy.

The Queen may buy land abroad but it does not make it Crown territory.
--------------------

"As Maker and Kingsand were in Devon it is impossible for the Tamar to be used as a Cornish border."

Except it IS being used as a Cornish border for the Duchy of Cornwall and as explained earlier, no Act of parliament crosses the Tamar without the permission of the Duke and his Duchy of Cornwall.

That's quite a solid strip of water according to the Crown and the Duchy's own experts.

Rambling on about cross naming villages pales into insignificance when compared to what goes on constitutionally.

Who do you think your are kidding, Mr Cameron?,

If you think Old Kernow's done?

We are the boys who will stop your little game,

We are the boys who will make us Celt again.

Who do you think you are kidding, Mr Cameron?,

If you think there are only three of us with kilts on?

(Damn! That didn't quite scan!)

One-Cornwall : I was using sarcasm, sort of trying to punch holes in some of the anti-Cornish guys like Dave etc,.

Being anti-nationalist is not being anti-Cornish Rialobran.

It is perfectly possible to not support the nationalist agenda, but to love and Cherish Cornwall and the Cornish.

It's a mistake that most obsessives make "If you don't think the same as me, you must be a bad person".

That is what leads to people trying to get posts here censored, people whose views are extreme cannot stand their views being challenged, not even in a polite and reasonable way.

That is why fanaticism always fails.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"Being anti-nationalist is not being anti-Cornish Rialobran."

Agreed. But being a nationalist does not mean that your an extremist, or any of the other handles that some like to use to describe them.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"It is perfectly possible to not support the nationalist agenda, but to love and Cherish Cornwall and the Cornish."

Agreed.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"It's a mistake that most obsessives make "If you don't think the same as me, you must be a bad person"."

Agreed. But there are obsessives on both sides of the argument, and I would argue that it is the obsessives who are Kernowphobic that are the ones who most often make the mistake you mention.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"That is what leads to people trying to get posts here censored, people whose views are extreme cannot stand their views being challenged, not even in a polite and reasonable way."

Speaking personally, the only posts that I have ever reported on this site, and there are many more that I should have but didn't, are those that, far from challenging my views in a polite and reasonable way, are rude, insulting, and abusive, when they are like that, whether they challenge my views or agree with them is totally irrelevant.

Perhaps one day the Cornish will have a more dignified online presence, Trembath started out debating that no towns were west of the Tamar and then agreed he knew they were. What is the point of these forums when we have people actively stifling comments like this, in an attempt to suppress the truth?

And the BBC removes people's comments who point this out. A few want to debate and are being suppressed by the antics of what we are led to believe is a nationalist minority, yet all the evidence is they do more damage than any comments we make.

If any of us made the above it would be removed, like this will. All Trembath does is play forum games and prevent others debating

Right back on topic as has been properly shown above

The Tamar was never a border as many locations west of it were in Devon until the 60s meaning it has only been a border as such for 50 years FACT.

It is PT who likes to use Wiki for evidence and this paragraph supplies the information from a link he insisted we use.

"…Several villages north of Launceston which are west of the Tamar were actually in Devon until the 1960s; part of the Rame Peninsula was in Devon until 1844…"

Graham asked the following question

"…Cornwall's border with Devon is where it is…"

The answer is, it is forever changing and only recently used the Tamar. It would have been nice to expose the truth about the mystical Celtic border, but given the antics of a few I do not believe that is possible, but the truth is it an English shire border as set my Westminster.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"It is perfectly possible to not support the nationalist agenda”


Bearing in mind Dave there are “Nationalist” and “nats” The Nationalist are a respected body, but the “nats are a bunch of renegade lose cannons, that represent no one.

This quote from the resident nat shows it very clearly, which must be a big relief for MK and the like.

“As I have said on previous occasions, I represent no-one but myself, any opinion I express is entirely my own”

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Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"Perhaps one day the Cornish will have a more dignified online presence, Trembath started out debating that no towns were west of the Tamar and then agreed he knew they were. What is the point of these forums when we have people actively stifling comments like this, in an attempt to suppress the truth?"

The truth. What do you know of the truth Mr. Tregantle?
Please show us all where I "started out debating that no towns were west of the Tamar"?
Or even that England had never encroached west of the Tamar?
I won't hold my breath waiting, as you are notorious for making such dubious statements about others, and then repeating them as if they were fact.
You still have not had the decency to provide your evidence to back up the odious claim you made about me on another thread, why? Because, as usual, there is none.
You are correct to question forums like this, especially when you use them to deliberately bare false witness.

The facts:-
Mr Tregantle tried to claim that the Tamar was not the ancient National border of Cornwall, because the Parish of Maker, was for a long time, in Devon. Completely ignoring the fact that the mouth of the Tamar is quite a way "up river" from that place. Therefore having no baring on the Tamar part of Cornwall's border.
He now gets annoyed, and tries to bring the small area north of Launceston that for a short period of time was administered by Devon Council, until returned to much rejoicing some 40 to 50 years ago. Completely forgetting that this had already been discussed on this blog some time ago, he now tries to claim that I had no knowledge of this, and now tries to turn that area into the subject of his argument.
What should be pointed out, is that it was Mr Tregantle who requested that this topic be covered on Graham Smith's blog, Graham duly obliged. But it was not a debate that Mr, Trtegantle was looking for, it was a thread where he could give airing to his opinions, and attempt to deny other opinions an airing, by his repeated posting of the same material, and his attempts to "shout down" and ridicule the opinions he disagrees with, and insult those who hold them.

Still no significant commentary from the AndrewJacks/youngcornwall/PeterTregantle more than slightly unsavoury EngNat consortium regarding the roughly 700 year old static and fixed border marking The Duchy Of Cornwall as constitutionally distinct and separate from the adjacent country known as England.
Surviving readers of this blog seeking truth in these matters may care to study, consider and absorb the reliable and authoritative information here:
www.duchyofcornwall.eu

Hark the Ancient boundary at the Tamar does not exist only in the minds of those who wish to exploit it

What they have done is keep saying it so many times that they think it has become a reality and get upset when faced with the truth, do people think when MP's come debate this they will use Wikipedia or online forums for a source of information?

If you think about it without the ancient boundary the nats have nothing, it becomes what it is an English shire.

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The struggle to keep our Cornish border intact is one of many we have had with the Anglo-Saxons - today's English - over the centuries and of course started after the English invasion of this land (circa 450-500) when they were called Anglo-Saxons - coming from Anglen and Saxony.

Things started to come to a head during the upheavals that brought about the English destruction of the Cornish monasteries from 1536 through to 1545 also brought an end to the formal scholarship that had sustained the Cornish cultural identity. The smashing and looting of colleges like Glasney and Crantock, the burning of Cornish literature, must have played a significant part in fermenting opposition to forthcoming and cultural ‘reforms’. Apart from being sorely missed centres of indigenous cultural excellence, many would have seen these institutions (Glasney & Crantock) as being a bridge our Celtic past, a link to a time before the present English achieved ascendancy, back even to the Christianised paganism of their forefathers.

In Cornwall, when religious processions and pilgrimages were banned by the English, commissioners were sent out to smash all symbols of Cornish Catholicism. Then fresh from bloodily suppressing the Catholics of Ireland, Cranmer’s (author of the Book of Common Prayer) henchman William Body relished his task in Cornwall. After desecrating religious shrines at Helston, Body was stabbed by William Kylter and finished off by Pascoe Trevian. Immediate retribution followed.

In an English communitiy wide reprisal similar to that carried out in Nazi occupied Europe, 28 Cornishmen were rounded-up and taken at gunpoint to Castle Terrible where many were hung, drawn and quartered. One execution of a ‘traitor of Cornwall’ was carried out on Plymouth Hoe. Town accounts give details of the cost of timber for the gallows and poles to put the head and quarters of the said traitor upon. A chunk of the Cornishman’s torso was taken to Tavistock so that English people might partake of the festivities.

Martin Geoffrey, the priest of nearby St. Keverne, was taken to London. After being hacked to pieces his gored head was impaled on a staff erected upon London Bridge. Intended as a warning to those who might resist English cultural imperialism, such indiscriminate barbarity only served to ferment even greater resentment in Cornwall.

On Sunday, August 4th and Monday August 5th 1549, those actively resisting oppression had been surrounded in the village of Clyst near Exeter. Commander of Tudor government forces Lord Russell, frustrated at his lack of success in open warfare, ordered the whole village to be torched. One thousand insurgents sealed within the village were incinerated. The following day, all prisoners taken into English custody were massacred. Chronicler John Hayward records that in the space of just ten minutes, the 900 bound and gagged prisoners had their throats lacerated by the English. The next day a further 700 were butchered. William of Malmesbury had written: "Exeter was cleansed of its defilement by wiping out that filthy race".

Cornish priests were excommunicated, those refusing to leave were buried alive, others were tarred, draped in their regalia and left chained from their own bell-towers. Some were hung from road signs,sometimes for months, even years, as a warning to others.

English Anglicans commandeered their churches. Cornish religious festivals, plays and feast days were ruled unlawful. The Cornish language was deemed socially unacceptable, its usage forbidden in matters of administration and religion. A network of informants became the eyes and ears of English State control with the Cornish being forced to attend the new English church where, sidesmen patrolled the church to see that none crossed themselves or used rosary beads when praying. Cornish literature and art were confined to the bonfires of intolerance.

And so it goes on today. No, maybe not with the sword or gun, but by the continuation of denying Cornish history to be taught in Cornish schools. Having to fight to keep our Cornish identity. Having to fight to keep our language and culture in the face of a burgeoning English presence that is now intent on eroding our historic border between Cornwall & England.

I hope this will go some way to explaining Cornish passion, especially with regard to the Tamar border.

"…I hope this will go some way to explaining Cornish passion, especially with regard to the Tamar border…"

I think everyone commenting is Cornish, you mean pro-independence.

Good to see a little thought placed into a comment, albeit rather lengthy, sentimental and avoiding the legal status of Cornwall, but this is the kind of debate we should be having and asking what you hope to achieve by creating a wall.

No pointing fighting if what you hope to bring only hurts the Cornish or is wanted by all the Cornish people.

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Rob wrote:
Nice one for bringing up these debate Graham, it is about time we thought long and hard about our border and what makes it so important to Cornwall.

Well how it got there, was in 936AD after centuries of intermittent conflict between the invaders from Europe and the native people of the British Isles. The Germanic invaders (Saxons in this case Wessex) fought there way west wiping out the Celtic Britons and forcing them further and further west and to Brittany. After many heroic battles the people -that we now know as Cornish- were defeated by the king of Wessex;

This is it in a nutshell

“the people -that we now know as Cornish- were defeated by the king of Wessex;”

“were defeated” for those who think they have some kind of obligation to carry on fighting, and make derogatory comments about the English more fool them.

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

“were defeated” for those who think they have some kind of obligation to carry on fighting........YC, If all peoples thought the way you do then all 'invaded' nations and peoples would 'be defeated' would never be able to Free themselves, the 'British Empire' would still be whole, the Blacks of South Africa would still be living in Apartheid, or further back we'd all be speaking German, Latin or Mongol. And before you ask why after all these years should Cornwall be free, well it is less than 500 years since we were no longer thought of as a nation, not that long in the span of history.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The borders exists only in bureaucratic parlance, especially the constituency boundary which some have been claiming is "Cornwall's historic boundary".

I'll be glad to share a constituency with my friends in Plymouth, as most of my work, and most of the services I use are based there.

The border of Cornwall county will remain at the Tamar, no matter how much the nationalists twist this truth. A minor political boundary will change, mainly to the benefit of those affected.

So, Dave the rave, how do you think Plaid Cymru would get on canvassing for votes in part of Shropshire? Do you think it would be right or fair for an English government to gerrymander constituencies in order to force Plaid Cymru to canvas for votes in England and thereby diminish and disperse their potency and potential away from their stated and constituted area of territorial concern?

Correction (although the distinction is often not very clear!):

So, Dave the rave, how do you think Plaid Cymru would get on canvassing for votes in part of Shropshire? Do you think it would be right or fair for a UK government to gerrymander constituencies in order to force Plaid Cymru to canvas for votes in England and thereby diminish and disperse their potency and potential away from their stated and constituted area of territorial concern?

Your analogy doesn't hold water AC, Wales and England are two separate countries. Cornwall and Devon are two English counties.

Monmouthshire did become part of Wales in 1974, though this was an actual boundary change, not a political constituency change like the one proposed for Saltash.

Dave the rave,
Well, the River Tamar and ALL that it represents, both physically and constitutionally, certainly holds water.
Please provide your evidence that the Duchy of Cornwall is an 'English county'.

I don't need to supply any evidence that Cornwall is an English county AC.

It is, and no matter what your nationalist fantasies, it will remain so.,

Well, there we have it - no proof to support your delusion.
Accurate territorial descriptions need have nothing to do with 'nationalism' , Dave the rave. They do help us a lot to know where we are. If you happened to be visiting friends in Holland, France, Wales, Scotland or Ireland you wouldn't keep telling them they were 'in England'. Would you?
The territorial Duchy Of Cornwall is clearly NEXT to England, just like Scotland and Wales. Why you and the consortium should be so rabidly obsessed with maintaining a state of denial in relation to the facts of the matter is a mystery.

Well you believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what i want to believe, and we'll both be happy then.

Oh no you won't will you? You'll keep bringing this matter up time and time again won't you, as it seems to cause you some deep angst for some reason that people in the county of Cornwall like me, prefer to remain Cornish and English.

I am happy and content that Cornwall is one of the counties of England, I do not need to have proof one way or the other. You however spend all your time trying to prove otherwise. Why is that? If you are happy that Cornwall is a "Country", why do you need to challenge my beliefs?

There are beliefs, Dave the rave.
And there are constitutional and territorial facts.
Why should anyone passively accept being told ad nauseum they are 'living in England' when they know they are not?

Well as I said AC, you can go on believing that Cornall is not in England, yet seem to need to prove that this is the case. I will go on believing that Cornwall is a part of England and not need to challenge or believe otherwise, lets see who is he ore happy of us two L)

By making that belief based and unfounded and, as yet, unproven assertion, Dave the rave, you are in fact displaying a 'need to challenge' the constitutional and territorial facts. Let's see the evidence upon which you base your belief as you appear very keen to repetitively proselytize it.

Dave the rave wrote:
I will go on believing that Cornwall is a part of England and not need to challenge or believe otherwise, lets see who is he ore happy of us two L)

Good for you Dave, like me I will go on speaking the English language, because I live in England, it wouldn’t sound right saying I am speaking the British language would it? But British made and made in Britain is OK, funny old world.

Some have a mission to create a division.

No, youngcornwall, merely to get to the truth.
Not a bad mission at all really.
Attempting to contrive 'division' appears to be more your forté and fixation.

AccurateChronometer wrote:
No, youngcornwall, merely to get to the truth.

Let us know when you “get to the truth” “the truth the whole and nothing but the truth,” in the mean time giving people the impression you know more of the truth than you really do, can be a little misleading.

None of the anti nats seem to have any evidence, only a need to be English, well I am not English, you carry on with your beliefs, I'll carry on with mine which IS evidence based. I AM CORNISH AND PROUD TO BE SO, just not English

Sorry Young Cornwall missed your return comment.

After many heroic battles the people -that we now know as Cornish- were defeated by the king of Wessex;


I was trying to be short and in that I failed obviously as my post is quite long. But in so doing I wasn't clear, the reason I wrote the people that we now know as Cornish was because nobody is sure what they called themselves; West Britons, Celts, Dumnonians, Cornovii, Cornish? and the fact of course that once Wessex was ethnically cleansed many fled west. Chances are a lot of these people weren't from Cornwall and wouldn't call themselves Cornish.

The reason I used the terms Saxon and Wessex was because England and the English didn't exist at the time of the formation of Cornwall. Likewise Cornwall may or may not have existed as an entity apart from Dumnonia, so to talk of Cornish in the modern sense at such a time would be anachronistic. Sorry my historical and factual pedantry was perhaps confusing.

I am interested by your idea that people like myself are continuing the fight of this period, like modern day Geraints, Constantines, Dungarths and Howels, don't which I would pick for myself. I guess if thats our choice maybe yours is between Alfred, Edgar and Athelstan, don't you think Young Cornwall?

Rialobran, I am happy to keep my belief that I am Cornish, English, and British. I feel particularly proud of all those status.

The border is always going to be a Curates egg for those seeking uniqueness, because of Devon, for most Cornish people Cornish is a culture not a race, when you hear the word used only a small minority consider it a race

Rialobran, I am happy to keep my belief that I am Cornish, English, and British.....Dave if your happy to be that, it's fine by me, I am happy not to be English, so why the obvious angst at those who want change?