Key period in the battle for Man Utd

I can't see the Red Knights succeeding. The Glazers won't sell without a very good offer on the table and the Red Knights just don't have that kind of cash. Plus, would they be any better than the Glazers if they can't clear all the debt?

I think the Glazers are just waiting for the offer so they can dismiss it out of hand and put the whole thing to bed.

...and there was me thinking were in for a busy summer at the club...Chelsea's title it is again then next season.


GLAZERS OUT!

i never thought it would work from the beggining so its not really a surprise to hear this. it would be interesting if it worked though, but like i said i cant see it happnening.

It's all doom and gloom. Shame United fans didn't decide to invest heavily in shares before the Glazers came along then this could have all been avoided. Hindsight, what a gift.

david bond's blogs are never long are they

A real financial mess created by the Glazer`s, but I doubt any group of potential investors will caugh up 1,5bn to buy even Man Utd.

Rather than end his career on a very low mark, I would suggest that Sir Alex retires now. It seems that he, personally, is allegedly being paid a high enough salary to entice him not to speak out against the Glazers and their money-grubbbing ways. Even the dogs on the street know that United need at least one new central defender, a good midfield general and a strike partner for Rooney. Maybe it's time we/they got a new manager, too. Now that success is beginning to wane, one thing is abundantly clear - and that is that Fergie has kept the fans off the Glazers' backs for long enough!

"quietly briefing journalists that the club can cope with meeting repayment charges on their £700m debts"

I wouldn't be so worried if the debt itself was being paid down, but as far as I can tell, the club is only just capable of paying the interest on the debts - despite the reported super charging of the clubs marketing activities.

I would love to hear a convincing plan of how the Glazer's plan to pay off the debt itself. Is there some game changing development in the pipeline that we don't know about???

something isnt right, fergie never used to come out with these excuses, he would always improve the team and talk about transfers once they were concluded, like the summer of 2007 *bang* we have signed hargreaves, nani and anderson and it was like were did that come from....I hope those days have not gone as new signings are a big part of the excitement of a new season.

"a team which only won the Carling Cup last season"

Really? Only won? Chelsea being the only other club to win major English honours this season. Also add to that only being out of the title race after winning the league the three previous seasons. Oh and add to that a record of semi final, winners, runners up and quarter final in the Champions League in the past four seasons.

Yes the finances are slighty worrying and maybe the record breaking transfers of Man City and Chelsea are out of reach but the mega transfers have only worked for them when they have spent that on English players.

If you want to talk about things going wrong how about talking to some Portsmouth, Hull, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday and even Liverpool will have more problems with their club.

https://engfootyabroad.com/ - English Footballers Abroad

There are so many fans who claim to be anti-Glazer yet turn up week-in week-out, giving the people they want out of 'their club' the money that guarantees they will stay.
If you want them out, hit them where it hurts, try boycotting a game or two and see how long it takes them to panic when they see the crowd is down 25%.

Zackerious,

Most of Chelsea's transfers since RA arrived have been far from the megatransfer realms. Schevchenko was the only real splurge, although the fee for SWP was a little extravagant, as proven by his return to Eastlands. What were initially thought to be excessive fees for Essien and Drogba have been fully justified on the field.

Manchester United continue to be the kings of megatransfers, with more signings in the 25-30,000,000 range than any other team in the PL. I'm sure that will change with Man City revving up for the new season, though...

One thing I've never quite got my head around is that Man Utd are often referred to as one of the wealthiest clubs in football and often battle it out with Real Madrid for the top spot. However, they are also in debts rumoured to be heading in the direct of the 1bn mark - so how can this be? Is it turn over not taknig into account losses? It has me stumped any road...

Red Knights let's be honest it's more likely to be the Baron knights

Hmm so this is published today is it? Are you aware of the story running on other sites where and I quote,

" United were able to trumpet a turnover in excess of £200m (€231m) from their London-based commercial arm alone."

Read more: https://breaking.tcm.ie/sport/red-knights-continue-interest-in-utd-458371.html

If the are turning over 200 million a year, it won't be long before any debt is paid off. It's not the first season United won only the Carling cup. Looks like you are scare mongering and don't have your facts straight either.

I still regularly go to OT. After all, its the religeon. But I have stopped buying any Man Utd merchandise. I used to spend quite heavily but thats all stopped. Its tough for a true fan to give up watching his team but in some ways it would be nice if we could do it. Maybe organise a few games where the stadium is half empty?
It wouldnt take long for the Glazers to get the message. And, of course, once you've boycotted a game or two it gets easier.
Not buying a season ticket isnt really an option as theres no gauantee that you'll get it back if the Glazers do go, and not many would take that risk.
I'm pleased that the protest is peaceful but I can see it getting nasty. The Glazers wont come to the stadium and this must make them think.
UNITED will never die, and I expect that either more money is made available to SAF or the Glazers will go. Either would be good

We'll be fine even without any major signings, it'll be the season after next when we have to spend to replace our golden oldies Vds, Giggs, nev, scholes. Hargreaves himself will be like a new 20million signing :)

In response to no.11.

I'd love to have those yanks out - BUT

I (and am sure many season ticket holders) have a dilemma. It took me 5 years to get one and I wont be taking the chance of not renewing it. I am delaying it till the 13th of June. I will also NOT buy any merchandise and boycott all food sales. I will ensure that I dont buy any ticket for a guest.

However see no point in boycotting a game I have paid for already and also it affects the boys!

Anyone have any better suggestions?

Unless the anti-glazer supporters setup a picket line in front of OT to stop people from attending matches, the real supporters will easily be replaced by glory hunters and even tourists who just wants to experience a game at OT and could careless how the club is run.

Being able to load the debt incurred to buy the club onto the club is a businessman's dream = the investment pays for itself and then some! Even if the Red Knights replaces the glazers, you will have to wonder if the 100+ investors will all happily just sit on their investment without an exit strategy? They're in it for the money and they will likely use the Glazer's formula but not as blatant as the Glazers did by siphoning funds away from the club.

Glazers will stay until a) Glazers need to sell or b) United goes under and the Glazers walkaway

The club is not for sale. It is a goldmine - a sporting titan.

The Glazers would be silly to sell anything less than £2billion, and the Red Knights would bring more harm than good. The problem with the Glazers is the debt, but the Red Knights are not going to change it.

collie 21, I don;t think you understand the difference between turnover and profit!

We spend most of our turnover on paying off the interest on the debt, so there is no money left for new players, let alone paying off the debt. The club is running at a loss even when we win trophies, and is going to be even more so when the interest increases to more than 16%. I'm all for optimism but the thruth is the club's in big trouble...

My god , the Glazer's have ruined the club. My fear is that we won't be able to buy new players to improve upon the current squad. Sir alex talked about one more player or perhaps none !! if that is true, then we can kiss the next season goodbye.

Collie21 - "United were able to trumpet a turnover in excess of £200m (€231m) from their London-based commercial arm alone."

Yes, and all of that money is going in to paying off the interest on the debt. The £700 million debt itself remains untouched! This is the central issue that is not often emphasised enough.

And the Red Knights colours are.....Green and Yellow? Huh?
I know what the Green and Yellow colours symbolize, but then surely you shouldn't be called the red knights.

Isn't this a over reaction from MU fans? i mean under Glazers you win 3 Premiership titles in a row and a Champions League title (coorect me if wrong) and all the moaning and whining this season and you only just lose the PT by a couple of points. Can't be that bad surely. Okay you have a pretty big pile of debt, but have just gone through worst economic climate in many many generations. And all the talk of Ronaldo leaving, hardly even made a diff. It's not all doom and gloom is it.

A question, when Glazers are gone? Who takes over? The Red Knights? And they are headed by Bankers and such? How do bankers do business? Leverage. Leverage = Loans and Debt. Don't see a way around it actually as all clubs that want to be the biggest need to spend spend spend. Unless you have another source of revenue from others ventures, you are always going to be in debt. How about drop in players wages, instead of the just facing off to Glazers.....

I supported the club when we won nothing for years and years. It aint about trophies not really - it's about going to games with your mates, having a few pints and a laugh and hopefully seeing your team win or at least play well.

Ending the season with a shiny cup is nice but if it's what motivates you then you're a sad pathetic individual desperate to bask in someone else's glory. I'm actually looking forward to a few lean seasons - we might get rid of some of the glory hunting plastic dross we've picked up over the last couple of trophy laden decades.

As for the Glazers, they're no different from the old butcher that used to own us or his son or the Irish mafia that hovered up all the shares. They have a different business model which takes out debt repayment rather than pure earnings but it's all the same - money men in it for money. And as for the bunch of chancers using MUST to try and strong arm they way in on the cheap - don't make me laugh.

How is boycotting Old Trafford going to work?
The only thing to suffer will be the team and we WANT them to win, always!!!
The players need our support.......that means we get behind the team and sing MUFC OK.......not Glazer Out!!!
All you MUST, RK's & LUHG fans are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Find me someone to buy United or GO AWAY!!!
They will need about £1 000 000 000......know anybody, do you?
In this current financial climate, you would be lucky to find anybody!

When we were all cheering the win in Moscow two years ago, I didnt hear any anti- Glazer songs then........how quickly you all forget.
Why is it ONLY the bad bits that the press release about us, never the sucessful side of Manchester United?
I dont want to compare our situation with anybody elses, but there are a few clubs out there who would gladly swap places with Manchester United!

You have forgotten what it is to be a United fan........
When I got my first LMTB years ago, I nearly cried, as it meant I could see the team I love week in, week out.
That was all I cared about and NOTHING has changed.

Dont waste your time trying to oust the Glazers, they will go when their pockets are full and ready.
Understand something......they DONT support United like me or you, they are businessmen, nothng more, nothing less.....
They wouldn't travel by coach to Videoton or go by train to Graz.....thats what fans do...or used to!!

Lets all be United again.......and get rid of the Green and Yella......that dont look good........UNITED ARE RED!!!!!!
In 1993 when United wore that kit (green and yellow halves), we were proud of the club, you lot have used it to discredit MANCHESTER UNITED......stay away until the Glazers go....

SEE YOU IN 2020.........at least.......

The guy in the bottom of the picture looks like Fergie!!!

I want the Glazers out, but I don't think the Red Knights have the financial power to do it. The Glazer family aren't desperate to sell, they seem quite happy holding onto the cards they've got. So for the Red Knights to persuade them, I fear would take a monumental offer. With the Knights saying they wont overpay for the club, I think they're chasing a lost cause. Ironically, the only person who could realistically throw that kinda money at the Glazers is in charge of the blue half of Manchester!

It doesn't really matter what they say about increasing merchandising and the global income, at the end of the day they only made a profit last year due to the sale of Ronaldo. Without this they would have made a loss and this surely points to the fact that they can not invest as much of the revenue in the club as the success it delivers deserves.

https://the-fa-premier-league.blogspot.com

Here's my two-penneth...

Red Knights seem to be pinning their hopes an effective (but waning) PR campaign, but to say they won't pay over the odds is ridiculous. If you want to buy my house then make a bid, but I'll decide what an acceptable price is, not you; until then I won't sell it.

Whether you find it unpallatable or not, it seems the Glazers came in with a long-term plan that has held up so far (despite years of continual bad publicity). Unless there's more info i haven't seen, RK's campaign is built on critising Glazers, yet they'll continue carrying the debt while taking the increased revenue that the Glazers have created. That just seems like a business move rather than a footballing move.

If you still think it's your club, don't put your money into it. If RK's give you a specific reason that will benefit you or the club, sign up with them. I suspect it's unlikely that any shares allocated to supporters would add add up to a majority vote as they surely won't have any intention of investing a huge amount of their own money to take control the club, only to have it run by the fans.

(and breathe...)

This hold thing is stupid and shows the lack of intelligence of the average Man Utd fan in Old Trafford. So they don't like their owners. Lets all wear green and yellow scarfs. That will show them. You're still turning up to games and paying for tickets, so what do the owners care if you wear green and yellow scarfs. They're probably laughing at you.
Man Utd like some other clubs in the Premier league (e.g. Liverpool)should not be allowed to operate in their current financial state. The English are always saying they have the best league in the world. Well they may well have but it has come at the expense of financially crippling a lot of clubs. This is something I would not be proud of.

If you're so against the Glazers leeching off your club, stop putting money into their pockets by buying tickets and merchandise!

Don't use the easy excuse that it'll hurt the players - according to you lot they're hurting anyway by the mere prescence of the Glazers!

Put up or shut up. And give Norwich their scarves back - that's just sad.

cpeskett,

The stats...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._records_and_statistics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F.C._statistics

Ok I will agree with the comment about more £25m+ transfers (2 of Chelsea's being £24m). I think the point I was trying to make but didn't really write coherently is that the time when United did go out and spend the most was 2001-2002 (excluding Berbatov in the same way I will exclude a possible Aguero/Torres move by Chelsea this summer). Chelsea where the last previous holder of the 'mega-transfers' title in 2003-2006 when 8 of their top ten transfers happen. Obviously since the take over in 2008 Man City are the big spenders.

Also another point what I think I was trying to make is that Chelsea still have the capability to go out and buy a £20m+ this summer if they wanted. I don't think United do that's why I wasn't putting them in the same category as Chelsea and City.

https://engfootyabroad.com/ - English Footballers Abroad

the red knights hav gone about the takeover to publically and it is clear that they will over pay for united despite wat they say.

they are now like a fall back for the glazers to get out if things don't work out but untill glazers hit serious problem there'll cling onto the power and profit at the club

The Red Knights might be better off turning their attention to FC United of Manchester. Although the current ownership of the club is intended to keep it in the hands of supporters, I’m sure they could be bought out, if the the offer was attractive enough. It would cost a lot less than trying to by Manchester United. :)

With the club planning to return to Newton Heath, it’s as close as the Red Knights will get to owning Manchester United.

They might consider changing the name of the club as well. Manchester Heathens anyone?

They might take a significant proportion of the “Love United, Hate Glazer” brigade with them.

Manchester United will continue to be owned by the Glazers, with fans around the world, but ever fewer in Manchester and its surrounds.

https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/manchester-united-and-liverpool-an-alternative-financial-plan/

I'm getting a bit tired of Utd fans whining about how badly they're doing; only one trophy this season? Poor darlings. Only two premiership teams won anything this year. Are you really bitching about only winning the league for the last three seasons and the league cup for the last two years, and three of the last five?

Yeah, Glazers are really driving you into the ground.....

"If the are turning over 200 million a year, it won't be long before any debt is paid off. It's not the first season United won only the Carling cup. Looks like you are scare mongering and don't have your facts straight either."

--------------

Be careful how you interpret the spin coming out of the club. This much trumpeted £200m in commercial revenues isn't new revenue. It's the total value of all the sponsorship deals since the Glazers took over. We were already doing very well commercially pre-Glazer. It's not £200m of extra revenues, and it's certainly not £200m per year! The actual growth in commercial revenues under the Glazers is only a modest 10% pa. To put that into perspective the clubs revenues and profits were growing at over 15% per annum pre-Glazer. Oh, and we've already spent almost half of cash from the new AON shirt sponsorship deal on yet more 'debt costs', so the new deal (the total value of which only matches Liverpools anyway) is effectively yielding less revenue per annum over the next four years than the old AIG deal.

United Spend £130m a year on wages and £70m a year on servicing their debt.

After 3 seasons of winning the league, Champions League wins and final appearances, trips to Wembley, 2 carling cups you'd expect that business could not be much better....yet last year they reported a £40m profit having sold Ronaldo for £80m. They bought Valencia for £15. SO take that ROnaldo & Valencia deal out of the equation and they make a £25m loss.

This season/summer transfer, assuming most revenue & cost figures remain the same, the stating point is a £25m loss. Any buys will just add to that figure unless they sell again....Are the mighty Reds turning in to a selling club?

While SAF does a great job of rebuilding teams, in a season or 2 without significant investment they will be seriously down on the amount of top quality players. They will be relying on the current youth, of which only Macheda & maybe the Brazilian twins stand out as any good.

In the EPL you have to keep building and keep improving. This takes investment throughout - better youth, better first teamers and the occasional superstar. If teams at the very top fail to do this they will become a decent team like Spurs, Villa, City rather than being an exceptional team.

Debt is an important part of every business. But taking £70m out of the club and out of football in interest every year is wrong. Thats about the same as gate receipts for a season....All ticket money, all the money spent on season tickets - straight in to the hands of banks. How do you feel.

I think its brilliant all these Utd fans coming out to complain now, after how many years of the Glazers taking over?? It was all rosey in the Old Trafford garden until, o no they my be in financial trouble and it looks like we cannot buy our usual 30mil plus players. The Glazers are businessmen plain and simple, they are there for the money and they dont really care what the average season ticket supporter thinks, end of.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

Collie 21 (post #15 above)

'Turnover' means roughly the same as total income...but that's before you deduct all expenses (including paying off interest on debts).

Turnover - expenses = profit (or loss)

If Utd's commercial arm had a profit of £200m per annum managing the debt wouldn't be a problem, but only the sale of Christiano Ronaldo prevented MUFC as a whole making a large loss last financial year- and that's why paying such large interest payments on the debt the Glazer's took out to buy the club is a threat to the footballing side of the operation.

#15 - Glazers are taking a lot out of the club in management fees, dividends and loans and the type of leveraged finance they took out is harming the club.

David Villa I think was always going to stay in Spain but I am concerned that only 1 signing is promised but then again if Hargreaves is fully fit & Hernandez is decent then that's a good thing but either Berbatov needs to start scoring or we need another striker in. Also a bit more cover at centre-half would be nice. I don't see a new goalie being bought until next season though

https://adampsb.blogspot.com/2010/05/world-cup-theme-songs.html

What is annoying United fans is that the only reason the club is in debt is because it was purely taken out by the Glazers to buy United.

Now, if that has been done in a sensible way it wouldn't be so bad but it has not.

The Club only shows debts of around £500m, which are serviceable. The problem is the PIK loans that the Glazers themselves took out where the interest is horrid at 16%+ soon, that the Glazers have no ability to pay off themselves. The only way that they can pay those off is to take money out of United. And it's that that is the big concern.

That was the entire reason for the recent bond issue where the £500m debt was restructured to a higher(!) interest rate, as the previous loans on a cheaper rate had restrictive covenants that did not allow the Glazers to take money out of United. Now they can, and when the next results get published we'll see just how much has gone.

If they don't take the money out of United to pay these off then they'll be in really deep trouble and their US businesses don't look very good right now. So if this comes true, they could strip United of its assets (they've enabled the ability to sell off Carrington for example and lease it back to the club!) and leave it in a right sorry state.

Now, if that sorry state was because the club had gone out and spent £700m on silly transfers and player wages, then as a club we'd deserve everything we got, but that is not the case.

And unlike Chelsea and City, United's transfer dealings have been funded by decent business sense that provided the money through profits.

Unfortunately that is now in the process of being raped by some Americans who thought they saw a business opportunnity and have been effectively caught with their trousers round their ankles by the economic collapse.

Even if they do asset strip United in the next three years, that might just pay off these stupid PiK's and leave the club saddled with the £500m for which it might just manage to keep up interest payments. Who wins apart from rival fans who'll find it quite amusing I'm sure. Although Liverpool fans may find themselves in a similar position, albeit not quite as serious.

So I don't think United fans are being dumb, and boycotting the club finances completely will not only demoralise the team, but may possibly set the club finances on a downward spiral that it may never recover from.

Also there is no way United fans could have raised the £350m+ that it would have taken to have stopped the Glazers buying United when the banks were stupid enough to lend so much money to people who really couldn't afford the club anyway.

Post credit crunch there is no way the Glazers could have afforded to buy United as no-one would have lent them the crazy amount of money they borrowed to do it.

@ #8 i can possibly think of one, and that is a break away from the collective TV rights deal and use thier own in house TV channel MUTV to exclusively show the matches, that kind of move would net them alot more money than the current deal and is akin to the likes of Barca, Madrid and Juventus who also negogiate thier own tv rights.

negotiate*

I may not like the debt that the Glazers have lumbered the club with, but I'd rather see Glazers in charge of Manchester United than 'The Red Knights'. It seems as though internal squabbling about just proposing the offer is almost causing this holy crusade to fall apart before they've even tabled an offer. Is this really what should be put in charge of Man Utd? The conflict of opinion and ego would be untenable, people talk about this coalition government falling apart very soon, could only see the same thing happening at Man Utd. Liverpool has just two owners yet the difference of opinion there seems to be doing untold damage. I didn't want the Glazers, no fan wants that sort of debt given to a previously sound financial club, but they suggest that they're here for the long term not the short, and if that is the case then let them be. Unless a single figure steps forward and feels like taking ownership and clearing the debt then I don't see that any other plan would improve the situation.

#adampsb - i'm not sure about your suggestion of more cover in centre defence, we now have ferdinand, vidic, evans, smalling and also o'shea can drop well enough into that role if the above 4 have problems, brown hasn't been that convincing in the position but it is possible he also could drop into there.

I wonder if the red knights could be talked into turning a small city at the end of the M62 into a footballing giant?
Hull are always willing to talk...and for a lot less than it would cost to buy United.

New contracts for Superstars of yesteryear and a couple of reserve younger player tells us Manchester United have no more ambition. Look forward to some lean years,our football is going to be like real life. cuts cuts and more cuts. No need to boycott the matches,2011/12 will see OT half empty with only the hardcore fans coming regular.What did we used to sing "Elland Road is never full" We'll be handing over as much as the opposition can fill of the scoreboard end. Who wants United for a £1 in 2020?

First I am wondering how on earth I'm not in Madrid with a ticket to the final in my pocket, second whether SAF should call Avram Grant to get advice on coping with an imploding football club and the prospect of enforced retirement.

The Glazer empire financed the purchase of United on a PIK Note known also as Pacman Financing, yes Pacman as in the video game, you get the picture.
Google PIK Note, very scary!

How many of the moaners on here were on the "battlefront"against
McManus and Magnier,invasions of racetracks,vandalism of there property
and even death threats.
They dont seem so bad now do they?

44. At 5:28pm on 20 May 2010, Sportsfan87 wrote:

@ #8 i can possibly think of one, and that is a break away from the collective TV rights deal and use thier own in house TV channel MUTV to exclusively show the matches, that kind of move would net them alot more money than the current deal and is akin to the likes of Barca, Madrid and Juventus who also negogiate thier own tv rights.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

By breaking away from collective deal United would find their rights worth considerably less then they were as they would be kicked out the premier league (and rightly so in my opinion - all 20 clubs are equal stakeholders in the league after all).

Unfortunately there is no answer to this rather unpleasant situation unless someone that is super-rich pours a whole heap of money into the club and clears all the debt too. The red knights will never work, these large consortia never do.
Maybe the Glazers will have a change of heart, sell the club for what they paid and console themselves with their multi-million pound salaries that they were paid the last few years. And maybe Spurs will win the champions league.

16.25% interest?! What did they do, buy it on a credit card?
https://sportales.com/soccer/fifa-2010-world-cup-countdown-blokes-be-prepared/

As a neutral I have to say it would be lovely to see Man U knocked off their perch. To see them back in the league - around mid-table - with most of the rest of the footballing world.

I dont suppose it will happen though.

And I certainly cant see them doing a Portsmouth.

Re.: Post 46. drewy88.

Well said. It's about time someone posted some common sense!

The Glazers aren't doing much wrong, they're cutting the debt and allowing Sir Alex Ferguson to make all the decisions concerning the squad.
Surely have one owner who calls the shots is far better than multiple owners who all think they no best? Nothing would get done if there isnt an out right owner.

Ferguson first suggested that they needed "1 or 2 players" and then retreated to only "one player". It's quite clear that given the cash he would buy at least 2, or probably 3 or 4 players. But then I would still back Man Utd to put up a strong challenge for the title next year - the critical thing would be to get a potent striker, as Rooney's body won't last the season seeing as he won't get to rest up this summer.

David, you missed a bit.

The cash balance on 31 December 2009, the £122m you mention, was subject to Glazer depredation on 29 January 2010 when £30m was removed to help repay the senior debt (with the Bond proceeds) and to cover the bond fees and pay the first instalment in the abortive interest-rate hedge repayment.

See page 29 of the Bond prospectus, that's page 43 of the pdf.*

Then, we expect the quarterly accounts will show a further £70m taken to reduce the Glazers' PIK debt, leaving just £22m behind.

See page 30 of the Bond prospectus, that's page 44 of the pdf.*

Conveniently, that's the EXACT amount needed to fund the half-year interest payment on the Bonds, due in August.

Phew!

*See the very small print for these details.

Have looked at that wikipedia list posted by Zackerious, and can see that of our top 10 transfers, no less than SIX have happened since the Glazers became involved in the club.
Some people have commented that they want a summer of transfers akin to when Anderson, Nani et al were brought in. We have already brought in Smalling and Hernandez, two relatively unknown players. But how many of us can honestly say we knew Anderson and Nani intimately? I certainly hadn't, beyond previous speculation linking Nani to Spurs.
Also, Fergie has already come out and said Rooney can't do it all on his own and surely another striker will be bought. Fergie said he wants to bring a "good" player to the club, meaning high profile surely. And a player doesn't have to be bought for 30m plus to have a big impact. Look at Valencia. A great first season. Hargreaves will be like a new signing, Anderson will be given one final chance to consistently show the form he has only hinted at thus far. And players like Gibson etc will be integrated into the first eleven further.
While I don't agree with the level of debt that the club have been saddled with, I think you have to just let the club get on with it. Rebuilding will happen when needed, which will more than likely be next summer.
It amazes me really. When talking about their respective national teams, people constantly go on about giving youth a chance at club level or our national team will suffer in the long term. Yet when Fergie says he might only sign one more player and he is going to give youth a chance, there is an outcry! I don't know about you but I am going to trust in the most successful manager in British football history, and someone who has one three League titles, one F.A Cup, three League Cups, one Champions League,one FIFA Club World Cup,one other Champions League final appearance and two other F.A Cup final appearances during the Glazers' tenure. City have spent 200m in two years, Real Madrid the same in one summer yet this season we have one more than both of them combined.
Debt is just a part of any business. I agree it needs to be under more control than it is now but there are no guarantee that a new owner will reduce this debt. A provision of any take over should be a complete wipe out of the debt.

p.s 59th!
For all you sad-cases who write 1st (even when, in most cases you are nowhere near first), that is called sarcasm/irony..

I really don't think the red knights idea is a good one. Its common sense, lots of wealthy supporters putting their own money into the club, hence each individuals will have their own opinion in things. Having said that, my biggest worry is however, the Glazers will not sell the club in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United

Manchester United is not liable for the PIKs. The PIKs are held by Red Football Joint Venture Ltd and are secured on that company’s shares in Red Football Ltd (and thus the club). If they are not repaid by 2017, the Glazers will almost certainly lose all their shares in Red Football Ltd (and the club) to hedge funds.

So to my mind, that says that in 7 years, if the Glazers are still at the club and the financial state of the club remains as it is, they will be out on their ears anyway.

At 59th post (WC2010GROUPC ) You sound like David Gill's Assistant mate!!! Admit it!!

My understanding of the situation is this:

The Glaziers bought the Club with borrowed money. When they had control of the club they shifted the debt onto the club. The Glazier Family therefore have control of the club but no debt, but the club is now in debt. If the Glaziers do accept 1.5 billion pounds for club, they get to keep it while the club is still 700 million in debt.

I am hoping that some financial whizz kid can tell me this is not true as it is morally wrong. They have gained 1.5 billion with NO outlay and the club owes 700 million!

Just telling it how I see it. Significant investment has been made by the club to strenghten the squad. The debt of the club shouldn't come into it. The club will NOT go bust, that is a simple fact. We have spent 20m since Janaury in transfer fees, and will sign at least one more player this summer. Or do you think we should be spending 100m + every summer? Because that has clearly worked for Real Madrid and Manchester City...
Would you rather a young player with potential and talent that Fergie can mould or another expensive flop like Berbatov or Veron?
We can't win the league every year. The fact that we ran Chelsea so close is a success in itself. And the fact is if we had not lost at Burnley or even got a draw in one of the games against Chelsea - both of which were decided by poor refereeing decisions - we would be champions.
And we won the league cup, a competition that was arguably more exciting and relevant this year than the F.A Cup.

Believe me, I would love a Kaka or Messi to come to United, but I would be more excited at a Gourcuff or Chiellini type coming in; bundles of talent but young enough to be taught the ways of United and someone who won't destabilise the club with their ego! That's why I don't think we should sign Benzema, a man who's ego and arrogance knows no bounds. I think Rooney would end up headbutting him!
If you have no confidence in Fergie's signings, check out Hernandez scoring record for Guadalajara. And watch him against England on Monday.

No. 62, placing the debt in a holding company doesn't make the situation better.

The bottom line remains that if the Glazers default -

a. They walk away unscathed, already having earned substantial amounts from the club.
b. The creditors take control of the club.

https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/manchester-united-and-liverpool-an-alternative-financial-plan/

That's modern capitalism for you. :)

Must agree with most of the comments made by WC at 59 & 65, personally I doubt the average fan really knows what goes on in these highfinance board rooms, getting the Glazers out might result in changing 6 for half a dozen,lets face it all these Investors, Bankers etc. are not in it because of love of the game (of course there are notable exceptions), but as an investment with a profit as the ultimate objective when they finally sell or recoup their inicial investment, some of them lose money, it's just like the stock exchange.

Also lets face it, the club has had some very succesful seasons with Fergie at the helm, as he remarked we have to give the younger players more chances as they will have to replace the scholes,giggs,neville etc. generation & the club has some good youngsters coming up, although Rooney really needs a world class partner, nobody can do it on their own, he must have been dissapointed to have been overhauled by Drogba at the finish (although congrats to Drogba, he's also a world class striker) I have a lot of hope that Owen will be fully recovered for next season at least & back to his best form. Its a fact that you can't win the title every season (how boring would that be) but we gave Chelski a run for their money ! and to stop buyng tickets etc. is a negative policy as that would be losing revenue for the club which makes things worse.

So all in all lets just continue supporting the club, the players, Fergie & all the people who work at the club behind the scenes, the club will never go bust no matter who are in financial control, it doesn't make much difference really. Think positive for next season, & the WC of course !!!!!!!!

"strengthen a team which only won the carling cup" is a bit unfair given the injury plagued season we had.

Agreeably, a new new striker may benefit the squad alot but it may be the case of taking a season to adjust to the premier league, which really wont benefit the team all. With a fit Owen on the bench and Macheda possibly playing more alongside Berbatov, who still hasnt convinced me, against the lesser teams for want of a better word, may be the answer.

A left sided wide player, Silva or Di Maria, would be a welcome addition as well.

Stan_Matthews_Fan (No. 67), what underlies or motivates "high finance" is not particularly different from the rest of the economy - profit and the acquisition of wealth.

More complex structures may be used, but increasingly, even those who create or transact in those structures don't really understand them. Why do you think the world economy is in the state it is in? See for example CDOs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation

That owners of football clubs treat fans as consumers of a product, rather than as having a stake in the future of the club, is not an insignificant factor in the the financial troubles of several clubs at all levels, from the Premier League down to several levels of non-league football.

https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/foundation-of-english-football-clubs-legal-fiction-or-sociological-phenomenon/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/a-premier-league-bubble/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/premier-league-debt/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/the-gap-between-the-premier-league-and-the-championship/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/english-football-finances/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/finances-in-the-football-league-championship/

Bottom right on the photo....is that Fergie in the crowd?

Ok, not all owners, but many.

Two other posts that are relevant to the sociological issue:

https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/ownership-of-football-clubs/
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/dons-fcum/

I've collated my comments above into a single post:
https://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/the-future-of-newton-heath/

I am not going to comment on the financial side of the game because even the financial experts are a bit confused whether Glazers' model works or not. However some of the posts that i have read (here and elsewhere) gives a very long list players needed for the club. My question is whom do you remove???

Someone said United needs a striker...but Ferguson always plays a single striker in Europe and against tough teams...there are talks about signing Benzema or that Villa should have been signed up. But will the new players sit quiet if they play a maximum of 50% of United's game in a season? Or will Rooney keep quiet if he is rotated?

One area i agree is that United needs a creative midfielder but whom do you remove? Scholes showed that he can still play at the top level while Fletcher was one of the most consistent midfielder last season. Hargreaves is expected to get fit and play while Anderson will be available later in the year. Then there is Gibson who looks a very good prospect. One player who could go is Michael Carrick but this is not football manager that you can buy a player and then easily sell him off. If someone makes a good offer for him then United will consider it and sell if Ferguson does not want him. Then there is talk of signing a central defender but United have one of the best defense in the league. So i would suggest the so-caled experts to come out of their "football manager mode" and consider and reflect on reality rather than a game.

For all intents and purposes football businesses are monopolies (its no wonder a certain kind of businessman is attracted to them whilst the incompetent labour government was asleep). As the game grew bigger there was no regulation since the Labour Party rule was that of a bunch of amateurs. Monopolies need to be regulated - the UEFA has made a start but the government should step in as well. By the way its patently illegal for a shareholder to pledge a limited company's assets (eg playing grounds) as collateral against a personal loan used to buy its shares?!! Once again the meat pie eating labour party stalwarts were in way too deep financial waters- they should have stuck to ruling their brothers in Union cafeterias whilst munching away at stale meat pies ! The result is the pride of the City of Manchester in the hands of a bunch of greedy financial engineers, what a shame !!

We all aware that the Glaziers bought the Club with borrowed money. now if they have failed to control the club for i will advise to sell cos the debts are increasing all the time. i can see there are some people who are willing to get out Man U out of problem. as we are talking we to sign new player but the Manager Alex has no money. the one we sold out CR $80m is no where to be seen. Thank you.

Am Mugambe Richard
From Ugamda
East Africa ( Afraca)

There really is no pleasing some people, firstly although in debt, the club do still seem to be able to operate and spend a fortune on players £30m+ on Berbatov!!! And yet their fans are moaning, put yourselves in the shoes of a club like Stockport who might not even have a club next season then you’d have room to complain about the running of your club...

Then there’s the green and yellow scarves, I was in the city for Charlton’s last game of the season and on the Sunday morning all you could see where people in green and yellow scarves yet still wearing the latest Manchester United merchandise and carrying their club shop bag, the only way you’ll get them out if its what they really want is to boycott games, boycott the club shop, although there’ll still be plenty of day trippers from the far east and Ireland waiting to take their seats.

You reap what you sow, the main bulk of Manchester United (I refuse to refer to them solely as United) fans I know revel in winning silverware and when they do go, they go to packed out stadium, well that club was the watershed for the sterile rubbish that modern football has become, I’m sorry but I do not have an ounce of sympathy for the fans of such a club, especially when you see the amount of them who do not actually come from Manchester....

I would love to see the Glazer family out, I really would. I used to be a regular at the ground, but when circumstances change, so does your life and I haven't managed to be a regular in recent seasons. This is something that I never thought would please me, but I am glad that I haven't been able to spend money that would go to recovering a debt an American Family brought in.

To me, it seems as if the FA's 'Fit and propper persons' vetting has failed, as it has done on many occasions. The fact the put so much money into buying united to share the debt with them is astonishing. However, can you really see a club like United going into administration/liqudation? Not in my lifetime. In all seriousness, if it got the Glazer's out, the Carling cup next season will make me happy, silverware is silverware - again, something I would rather not be quoted on. What people don't understand is it's more than just a club, it's almost a ritual. The club can win as much silverware as they want, once the Glazers are gone, as long as it's not City or Liverpool picking it up...

Why were the Glazers allowed to buy the club if they could not afford it. If they were 750 million short, surely I myself could be eligible to buy many football clubs myself... im only about 100 million short of buying Newcastle, its less deficit than the glazers had yet the banks still lent them the money......there is something wrong with the way the finance system works.. if the bank lent me 750mill, i think id do a better job with it!

also, it really annoys me when people refer to badly run clubs getting into debt and talk about the monster debt united have.... yes, united are in debt but technically speaking, we have NEVER made an operating loss (yet) and generate more income than any other club bar Real Madrid. United have always been a fantastically run club and have generated their own money through success and commercial enterprise rather than being bank rolled by a sugar daddy. The debt united have is merely the debt the Glazers have given the club. When Blatter and Platini talk about clubs operating within their means and debt ridden clubs should be penalised, surely this cannot apply to united.....

I understand it sounds like im in denial but i object to the idea that man utd have spent money they dont have which has never been the case. Regarding the Glazers, aside from the fact they have plunged the club into debt and have no money, they seem to be reasonably competent owners who have let fergie get on with his job without restrictions..

Here we go again! Red Knights! Barron Knights! (liked that one)- I hope this 'G&G' & 'Glazer's out' campaign isnt going to continue all next season as well. Half the time this season didn't know if I was at OT or Carrow Road! (well I did really - no disrespect Norwich fans!!)
Like many other long time Man Utd fans (50 plus years) it took me years to get my season ticket back (incidently already renewed)- once made the very big mistake of returning two League Match ticket books and lived to regret it -won't be doing that again. I am hoping some of my family members will get season tickets this year, so to all those who keep talking about sending their tickets back - please stop 'talking the talk' and start 'walking the walk' and get on with it- before June 13th if possible, so we can sort out our seats before going off on holiday - Ta very much!!

SOS (spirt of shankly) and red knights are both grouyps who are made up of people who know nothing. The red knights will never buy man utd and SOS well some of the stuff they do is appalling (munich chants and calling for vilonece against owners). Red knights are better then the glazers but only just like the SOS

willetg brooks wrote: "When we were all cheering the win in Moscow two years ago, I didnt hear any anti- Glazer songs then........how quickly you all forget."

I also see people saying 'well you've won 3 Premier League titles and a Champions League title so what's the problem?'

Back in 2008 the Glazers had not publicly declared their intentions for the club. That all changed when they released the bond prospectus, which raised £504m.

In that prospectus they made it clear that if the debt continued to grow then they would consider selling Carrington, the naming rights to or even Old Trafford itself and 'prize assets' e.g. Wayne Rooney.

This is what finally made people realise that the Glazers could potentially destroy our club and why MUST's membership has increased tenfold this season.

@Berbyred. That's right guy, stick your head in the sand, keep going to the games, and do your best to keep the Glazers around as they run our once mighty club into the ground. 5 - 10 years from now you too can enjoy the glory of watching your team do a Leeds and trundle around in the lower divisions, bankrupt and totally bereft of all the talent, infrastructure, pedigree and real estate once associated with United.

I care enough about the team that I'm prepared to stop attending games at Old Trafford, and will do so until the Glazers are outed. If someone like yourself snaps up my season pass so be it, that's a sacrifice I and others are prepared to make if it means sending a message upstairs that people do actually care about the club. All you care about is your short term self gratification, regardless of the long term effects the Glazers are having on a club you profess to be such a die hard fan of. It's people like you who will be the death of United, because it's just too much trouble and oh so inconvenient to actually take a stand. A few home games with empty stands would be more than enough to make an appropriate statement to the team's yank overloads to get lost, that people power can make a difference with billionaire investors who toy with our teams and strip them of their heritage and assets like it's nothing. But it isn't going to happen because it's just way too much trouble for the likes of you and your ilk. Just don't bitch and whine when it all collapses and you're left wondering why it all happened and where your once mighty team has gone.

I saw a couple of comments that need addressing.

1. All 3 top clubs saw higher than normal injury rates. At one point, Chelsea had both starting right backs, on starting central defender and one starting left back, plus Michael Essien, all injured. Not quite a match to Manu U, but close. Arsenal had their fair share of the same. Man U did not have the sole rights to that particular complaint.

2. The Man U - Chelsea match at OT was decided purely by a Joe Cole goal. Otherwise, there were 4 poor official decisions. The foul on whichever Man U player it was by Zhirkov, the all-out barge by Gary Neville on Anelka, the offside goal by Drogba and the deliberate handball by Macheda (every replay shows him directing it into the goal with his hand).

Beyond that, I agree with those who contend that Man U have been royally hosed by the Glazers. I may not be a fan of the club, but there is no denying the pedigree, one only rivaled by Liverpool in England, and then not recently. I love everything about Chelsea, including the bad years of the 70s and 80s, but I think I could have suffered through a few Man U-like successes.

Nice to see that Utd and Liverpool have one thing in common - the clubs are run by cowboys!

I really don't understand why Manchester United fans are so against the Glazers. Since they became the owners the club has had great success on the field and has won numerous trophies. Yes you had to borrow heavily to get this success but you can't win in the English game these days unless you spend loads of money I'm afraid.

As for the Red Knights, United fans must be a little bit naive if you think these so called investors are doing it for nothing. The club sold it's soul when it became a PLC and you can't control who owns it however much you want to.

255. At 4:37pm on 21 May 2010, you wrote:
ANNOUNCEMENT

HERE ARE THE RESULTS OF THE FOOTIE THEME SONGS POLL

In 4th Place with 7 votes the chessy harmonics of the England squad in Back Home

In 3rd place with 8 votes the thumping synth tunes of the Pet Shop Boys remix of Jerusalem

In 2nd place with 19 votes the ever cheerful World In Motion

The winners with an incredible 50 of the 80 votes cast was the Lightning Seeds with Baddiel & Skinner football anthem Three Lions

I thought about putting Go West on there but it is the tune not the lyrics that football appropriated so it was left alone.

There is another blog that everyone including JDR will love as it is funny yet informative and strangely well written if I do say so myself. And I do so there

https://adampsb.blogspot.com/2010/05/know-wot-i-mean-arry.html

Visit there or be square

I can't believe I'm reading some the rubbish written on here. Suggestions that Fergie should retire, thats he paid to keep quiet by the Glazers, that we can kiss goddbye to next season unless we spend millions and millions. What utter trash, and how insulting to the most successful manager in United's history. To suggest he retire is disgusting.

Lets remember, we have just won a domestic trophy. After three years of winning the title. We lost Ronaldo and Tevez yet carried the fight to the final game. Oh sorry, we didnt get the CL final having been there the last two years. We do not have a divine right to win everything every year. We have a right to compete. That we did and did well. The manager achieved that, he achieved much given the loss of players and the suggestion from some United would struggle. Look 30 miles west down the East Lancs road, I bet every Liverpool fan would be happy with a trophy this season and a CL spot next. Let the manager do his job, trust him, he has brough wonderful success to this club, and stop insulting his judgement.

As for the idea that the so called Red Knights will sweep into town and right off the debt, spend millions on players and all will be fine and dandy, just wake up. They are already arguing about how its done so I hear, so translate that into the boardroom. Do you really want United shared out between a bunch of hedge fund managers and wealthy investors? Investors usually want a return on their money so you think they will keep fundiung transfers and debt? Dream on. I hate the debt, I don't care too much for American owners, but I like one man in control, I like the quiet assured nature the current owners show, and I like the commercial success that its starting to bring. Who ever owns United will have debt. That was always going to be from moment we went public and a the value of the club was what someone was willing to pay for it to take it private again. I see massive turmoil and trouble ahead if the Red Knights take control. Be careful what you wish for.

And yes, I am as passionate a United fan as you can get and have been for 47 years.

OK fellow reds how about a reality check
We were always at risk of this when the club was originally floated
Now it has finally happened and someone has borrowed immence funds to buy the club. There is no magic to ever reverse it. We will always be in debt. there is no billionaire that can afford to wipe away this much money.
The Red Knights will not help, they will only place us more in dept and we will have so many chiefs running the club there will be no clear direction.
Therfore let's continue taking the p*** out of the owners -we always have over the years. Club owners have not very often been in tune with the fans. At least we do get the odd 30M to spend -lets try not to waste it on the over-rated players . Fergerson is right as usual!! Keep the Red flag flying !!

goalkeepers - VDS, Kuszack, Amos

defenders - GNev, Brown, OShea, Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Fabio, Rafael, Smalling.

midfielders - Hargreaves, Anderson, Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Giggs, Park, Nani, Valencia, Gibson.

attackers - Rooney, Berbatov, Owen, Marcheda, Welbeck.

I think I have to agree with Sir Alex. That team/squad is good enough to win the league next season if not more. Utd had so many defenders injured during the course of the season thats what cost them the league and maybe even Europe as well.

Maybe, maybe a stricker. But like Sir Alex says, in this current financial climate, you will have to pay £25mill plus. Who, out there is worth it?

So theres no conspiricy involving Sir Alex. The money is there. Theres just no need to spend it.

And just for the record, United scored more goals this season than they did in their last two seasons. Thats after Ronaldo and Tevez leaving!

Keep the defenders fit and on form, then they will be more than ok.

Sorry, missed out that new fella they signed from Mexico. So maybe, maybe they dont need a sticker after all.

I meant striker.

I wonder what if there is Manutd owner that is as rich or even richer than Mancity. Well.... that is something that we can ponder about.
P/S: Is there any consortium or other Royal Family that is richer than the Abu Dhabi?

"Yes the finances are slighty worrying and maybe the record breaking transfers of Man City and Chelsea are out of reach but the mega transfers have only worked for them when they have spent that on English players."

Zackerious is the case of Chelsea this is totally wrong. Chelsea have only spent more than £25m on one player - Shevchenko (30m).

Look at the successes at Chelsea in the RA era:
Joe Cole (6.6m), Makalele (16m), Cech (7m) , Robben (11m), Drogba (24m), Carvalho (19m), Essien (24.7m), A Cole (20m), Malouda (13m), Ivanovich (9m), Bosingwa (17m) Anelka (15m)

Compared to those who failed to make their mark:
Glen Johnson (6m) Wayne Bridge (7m) Veron (15) Parker (10m) Del Horno (8m) Wright Phillips (21m) Shevchenko (30m) Kezman (10m)

Of the foreigners Makalele, Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Ivanovich, Bosingwa and Anelka were worth every penny of their fees. Malouda has been a revelation this year. Shevchenko, Veron, Del Horno and Kezman were the notable failures. Crespo and Mutu were successful when they played, but due to personal problems neither played as often as they should have.

Of the English players only Joe Cole has been an unqualified success. Ashley Cole was distinctly average in his first 2 seasons, but has re-discovered his mojo in the last 2 years. SWP in particular, and Paul Parker were terrible signings at the price and Glenn Johnson was a disaster defensively at the time. Wayne Bridge at least justified his fee.

Your comment that Chelsea's only transfer successes have been with English players under Abramovich is completely wrong.

Man U fans should be worried about the Glazers. Americans only dedication is to that of money, and if they think they can make more by moving the club elsewhere, like the USA, they WILL!
Comments by greenmarkfo are valid. Chelsea have not bought their success. I hope they forget Kaka and spend the money on home grown juniors and the underestimated Joe Cole

Why did we ever let them into the club? Hope this all gets sorted in the summer, even if it does mean the Glazers taking home a healthy profit :( https://www.ilovemanutd.com