Budgeting for recovery

1p a litre

as rabbie wid say. be content wi, little.
roll on full fiscal autonomy in scotland.

Brian

"the parties will line up in alternative formations, not wholly dependent on the Westminster allegiances."

Now I wonder which 3 of the 5 parties you mention have "Westminster allegiances"?

Not the SNP or Scottish Greens, so that leaves the others involved in a formation version of the Danse Macabre.

test

edinchris from previous thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torness_nuclear_power_station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunterston_B_nuclear_power_station

Took 8 years to build for a projected 40 year life only it runs at 70% which gives it a useful 28 year life. 20 odd years to dismantle and hundreds to store the waste safely. A financial nonsense let alone the inherent risks.

https://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80585.html

I believe that fallout is landing in Iceland at the moment.

The Banking Crisis simply explained...
Young Paddy bought a donkey from a farmer for £100.
The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day...

The next day he drove up and said,
'Sorry son, but I have some bad news. The donkey's died.'

Paddy replied, 'Well then just give me my money back.'
The farmer said, 'Can't do that. I've already spent it.'
Paddy said, 'OK, then, just bring me the dead donkey.'
The farmer asked, 'What are you going to do with him?'
Paddy said, 'I'm going to raffle him off.'
The farmer said, 'You can't raffle a dead donkey!'
Paddy said, 'Sure I can. Watch me.
I just won't tell anybody he's dead.'

A month later, the farmer met up with Paddy and asked,
'What happened with that dead donkey?'

Paddy said, 'I raffled him off.
I sold 500 tickets at two pounds a piece and made a profit of £898'
The farmer said, 'Didn't anyone complain?'
Paddy said, 'Just the guy who won.
So I gave him his two pounds back.'

Paddy now works for the Royal Bank of Scotland.

Sums up the budget!

2.
Of course it would be coming out of our taps in an independent Scotland - or should I say a fiscally autonomous Scotland.
Come on - get a grip. Norway has it even worse than we do.

Brian,

"In addition, the SNP noted, with chagrin, that the Chancellor's big budget announcement is predicated upon additional tax drawn from North Sea oil."

And with good reason. The tax cuts will help the entire island of GB whilst any employment and investment shortfalls as a result of the increased taxes on the production companies will fall most substantially on Scotland. Another negative union dividend it appears, although to be fair they did give a few days warning with the speech by Huhne's sidekick at the tory conference last week-end.

Can't see it being a good campaigning strategy for either of the coalition partners myself, although it would be too much to expect dour Iain to protest too much about a new unfairness to Scotland, and of course nobody would believe him if he did.

As this will be the first Scottish general election with the BBC's blogs working properly, would it be too much to hope that you will provide and keep open week by week threads for discussion of what is happening on the hustings? If you haven't the resources, perhaps you would be so kind as to ask your colleagues on the Scottish sub-site of "Democracy Live" to provide it while they would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs during the Holyrood dissolution.

sorry I was refering to post 1 not 2.

Thank s Mr Osbourne, you have just made the job of the SNP canvasser much easier. Now even the Labour faithful will see how westMonster uses Scotland to prop up the rest of the UK roll on May

The Tory/LibDem alliance are using Scotland's oil/gas sector as a cash cow much as Labour did a couple of years back. What a waste. Just think what we could have done with that resource if we'd been independent. We've have been another Norway. Prosperous, industrially succesful, admired and respected on the world stage.

This £2bn tax on N Sea oil and gas companies will have a hugely detrimental impact. At best it will slow down new developments and reduce exploration. At worst it will just encourage the larger companies to go elsewhere and make the smaller companies rethink their plans.

If the boy George was cutting fuel by 5p or even 10p I could have some sympathy. But cutting fuel by 1p when the price is what he's doing to Scotland's most succesful industry just isn't worth it. Short termist nonsense.

As regards the budget it seems as if the 1p reduction is in some way meant to alleviate the hardship of increased fuel costs, which is just absolute nonsense as fuel has risen by some 30p a litre. To cover this and other short comings in teh budget teh chancellor has raised the Supplementary Tax on Gas and Oil companies in the North Sea from 20% to 32%, raising the take from this tax to over £13bn a year, an increase of over £2bn. Bearing in mind that this is only one of the taxes levied on the North Sea industry, I wonder if any Unionist would care to explain how in a time when we are trying to grow our industries such a savage and disproportionate levy is placed on Scotlands main employer?
It is also of note that the fig leaf of presenting this as a fuel price regulator has been very quickly rubbished. Compare and contrast with any extra tax levied on Bankers - none, on any other industry - none. SO why of all the options has the chancellor chosen only the North Sea Gas and Oil industry to solely bear the brunt?
The industry has pointed out that such a draconian increase may have the effect of driving investment away, thereby reducing the tax take as well as increasing unemployment. Is it just Thatcher revisiting but this time attacking a vibrant and very successful industry.
As regards Holyrood this must be manna for the SNP, yet again Scotland is being used and abused by Westminster to shore up a crumbling state. Our block grant is being cut by £1.3bn at the same time as our prime industry is being forced to contribute an additional £2bn.

yes an EXTRA £2 billion stripped out of Scottish economy. And all labour can say is we are too wee too poor and too stupid to be independent. Vote Labour GET TORY !

steady up hhh1#8 your begining to sound like,elmer fudd.

#4 cheesed-off

In addition, the fact remains that Scotland exports electricity, we use less than we produce. Like North Sea oil [worth more to London every year] and our water, we have an embarassment of riches. A single nuclear accident or discharge could destroy our tourism, fishing, whisky, beef & lamb, forestry and water industries. Not to mention the health impact where 80% of people live in a relatively compact part of the country.

My earlier post was referred. Don't know why, anyway the main argument was that Jackie Baillie was floundering on telly last night when asked 3 times how much Labour had costed for care of dementia patients. The audience were knowledgeable and concerned and they noticed. Oh yes. First-Blood to wee Nic.

Remember your grandfather and vote Labour,

Consider your grandchildren and vote SNP.

#6. hhh1 wrote:
"Norway has it even worse than we do."

What has Norway worse that Scotland? Crime; Murder; Poverty? Don’t think so.
“Today, Norway ranks as the second wealthiest country in the world in monetary value, with the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation.
Following the ongoing financial crisis of 2007–2010, bankers have deemed the Norwegian krone to be one of the most solid currencies in the world.”

OK - info from Wikipedia but again along with Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, and Switzerland - small countries have a better quality of life than some larger ones that won’t be mentioned and are certainly not worse off.
Ireland and Iceland problems were not caused by being sovereign nations and they will come 'right' again It was shameful the way certain parties and their supporters appeared to gain so much satisfaction from their financial problems. A great deal of Schadenfreude.
Kiwi Mike

11. At 19:20pm on 23rd Mar 2011, soosider.
Good post.

I note our Whisky industry is also being raided by westmidden muggers.

15. More expensive fuel!

15. More expensive fuel! Doh!

Higher wages too.

#17 hh1
You forgot to say more expensive alcohol.

Or is it now Labour policy to make alcohol more expensive?
(Dianne Abbott certainly thinks it should be.)

#19 AlastairGordon
"Or is it now Labour policy to make alcohol more expensive?
(Dianne Abbott certainly thinks it should be.)"

Quite so. What odds on that being dour Iain's next U-turn?

Barbazenzero

100% Proof.

The ramblings of madmen on propane.

#20
Ah Ian ... the Mrs T of the Labour world. You may turn if you want to but .... etc.
I think he should bold and start a trend of announcing his own policies. I think he should concentrate on applying a new duty on coffee. I believe that it can be mighty dangerous stuff and fills hospitals each weekend night with the carnage that it can cause. A duty at the same rate as whisky is at, or even higher, would be a good start, and he could also consider a strength tax for coffee, along the lines of nescafe decafe = lowest tax (equal to 40% proof), nescafe original = medium tax (equal to a good conneseurs choice 55%ish dram), and nescafe expresso = highest tax (definately a 70%+ cask strength dram and could also be brought in as a class c substance as an additional policy point). He has to take the bull by the horns and get a policy that is not a copy of the current governments and I think this could be it. It is unlikely to be copied by the other parties so would make Labour stand out as different to the others - a definite vote winner. Taxes raised could be passed to that nice Mr Osbourne to help with important things like olympic games organisation or refurbishing the used olympic stadium for use by a big team from that area to play football in.

PS
Obviously there are other well known coffee brands also available.
For the less violent, there are also other beverages such as tea, bovril and orange juice (with bits or strained)

Brian,


Why is Jackie Bird saying on the EBC News that there was good news for Scottish motorists in todays budget?

Why does she think a measly penny is good news, are the EBC mob who feed off the lisence payer really so ignorant?

#17. hhh1 wrote:
Norway has “More expensive fuel!

Figures are as near as I can get.
I believe in the UK unleaded petrol prices have risen from £1.28 per litre to £1.32 per litre by March 2011. In oil rich Norway they are indeed dearer at about £1.68 per litre but there again the average wage in Norway is over £46,000 as compared to what in Scotland? I don’t know but if it’s about £30,000 then the extra cost of petrol is insignificant. Likely still cheaper than bottled water per litre. (Average cost of 1 litre of bottled water in UK: £3.40).
Kiwi’s are complaining because petrol has risen to about £0.90 cents per litre and we haven’t any oil fields. Price of petrol and any item is relative to ones net income.
It may be too dear in Norway and the UK or maybe about right and in fact it may be too cheap in the US, NZ and Australia.

So, Westminster gives out £2Bn in breaks to the UK.

Scotland's Oil & Gas Industry foots the bill - again.

For info - DECC figures show North Sea and West of Shetland Oil and Gas investment estimated at 10Bn in 2011. That's investment in Scottish Industry and Resources by the companies now getting nailed by this tax.

Maybe £2Bn less to invest now? Maybe more - if those oil companies decide to put their finite Capital Expenditure into more profitable global regions.

So maybe 20% less Oil & Gas projects going ahead, 20% less Oil & Gas supply chain jobs, products, service company activity.

Westminster Chancellor hands out baubles to all.

Scotland picks up the tab.

Thanks.

Anyone voting for a party that supports the continuation of this "fair and equal" Union needs to have a long hard think about this recurring theme.

this must be the most insignificant budget in living memory. it looks like the calm before the storm .instead of using tax and or other economic measures in the budget to reduce the defacit, it looks like they,l have to use blitz methods when were least expecting them!

Brian,

Further to my post #7 above, I do suggest that you try to interest your colleagues in upping the BBC's game in its election coverage.

With nothing on this website's Scotland [sic] politics page to suggest that the campaign is now in full swing or how the BBC plans to cover it, I note that your rivals are pitching for the market of us politics junkies with their new Election 2011: STV unveils ambitious on air and online plans, telling us about their two live debates on 29 March & 3 May as well as their Holyrood election night programme.

For expats like me and anyone with a better half hogging the TV, they plan to stream them all live online alongside an interactive online debate.

The BBC has the technology to be able to emulate that or better, but is it planning to, Brian? Whether so or no, could you please ask somebody to put together a web page to tell use what, if any, your coverage of the Scottish general election will be?

As we approach or pass £6.00 a gallon for petrol and diesel it should be understood that around £4.00 of that goes to the Governemnt in tax, VAT and excise duty so the reduction of 1p is completely inconsequential to most motorists though perhaps marginally (very marginally) helpful to hauliers.
It is gesture politics at its most obvious
Yet again Scotland is bailing the UK out

28. At 23:06pm on 23rd Mar 2011, Barbazenzero

They haven't had instructions from Ed yet as he's been busy watching 'Only fools and horses'.

scotland getting raided again to prop up the uk? who are the scroungers??? open your eyes people. vote for an independent country!

Scotland stitched again.
Oil industry shafted.
Whisky industry shafted.
London feels no pain.
"We're all in this together"

Aye, and I'm a staunch unionist, too!

5. At 18:29pm on 23rd Mar 2011, cheesed_off wrote:

"Paddy now works for the Royal Bank of Scotland."

And the donkey turned out not to be dead but became a live ass and is now the Chancellor.

Not good enough...independence it must be.

The biggest deal is the rise to 7500 for those on low incomes who don't want to be on the brew.

Only putting it up 600 for next year was a bit cheap, the sooner it gets to 10 grand the better, which was a librul policy at one point.

For many folk it just gets munched up by the mortgage and cooncil tax bills anyway.
Then you pay income tax and National Insurance on the cash which buys fuel which has Value Added Tax applied to the Fuel Duty tax.

So for a pound of income.
30p tax+NI
70p left
Buy 70p of fuel
63% is taxes = 44p

So for every quid you earn and buy fuel with...you get 26p of fuel.

So to get one quid of fuel into your tank you've got to earn four.

"known to us affectionately as "Telly Tubby" land."

Fine, now what do 'we' call Westminster. Really Brian, now you are reduced to childish name-calling of the Nation's Parliament building!

PS - Who is this 'us' you refer to?

Telly Tubby land , for those with pot bellies and nonsensical commentary.

No mention of the Liberals plans to cut fuel costs on our Islands?
The assorted Unionist parties promised RET for years and years - but never delivered.
Hollow promises from New Labour, Old Tories and Dem Libs - again and again and again.
"We are all in this together" - Aye - that'll be right.
The SNP is the only choice.
A Better Scotland - with a lot better budgets than this one anyway!
Slainte Mhor

#37 - "Really Brian, now you are reduced to childish name-calling of the Nation's Parliament building!"

Not that Brian needs any defending from me but I'm sure he was referring to the landscaping around the building and not the building itself. Nor was he making any reference to the parliament's use either.

With Scottish labour shooting itself in the foot at every opportunity, acting like a spoilt child with its "oh, Alex, I'm telling" (has Boyack had a response from Sir Peter Housden yet?), we of a more nationalist bent must be sure we don't stoop as low. There's no need to take offence at every imagined slight, be more confident, more optimistic.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Brian wrote:

"the Chancellor's big budget announcement is predicated upon additional tax drawn from North Sea oil."

The UK economy, including that of London has been kept afloat by North Sea Oil for 35 years - oh what Scotland could have done with this windfall.

For all those still faithful to labour, we will have a minimum 8 more of these tory budgets to come, they will be in for at least 10 years / 2 terms due to labour's fouling up of the economy. labour are unelectable for 10 years.

This could all end and we could implement our own budgets for Scotland, labour supporters take note.

Scotland's children should not have to grow up in a tory uk!

Union is not working!

C McK

On petrol pricing, a missed opportunity.

ALL Shell-branded filling stations should offer petrol at the same price, whether in the centre of London, within a mile of the Grangemouth refinery, or on the Isle of Skye. (And so for all other petrol brands applied to 10 or more such stations.)

A fraction of a penny increase for some, tens of pennies reductions for those most in need of transport.

Still, old technology.

The Government (Westminster or Holyrood) should be pushing electric vehicles for all areas north of Scotland's central belt.

Telly tubby land isn't far wrong.
On the balance of probabilities you do need to be a womble shaped person to run this country.
On the flip side this means that all their health policies are just fluff and posturing, one look at them and you know they're not really serious about that health and lifestyle stuff, which is reassuring.
In reality we have adopted a "Scottish approach" to health and lifestyle.

Lifestyle extremists are scary people, like those kooky regimes who get everybody to jump up and down in a gym top and shorts.

https://www.ianhamiltonqc.com/blog/

@41. ForteanJo. My referred comment was simply an attestation to Brian's learned skill with the English language. In particular, I commented on his adept sentence construction

#43. Sad to say, the price of any article, be it a loaf of bread, a litre of petrol or an aircraft carrier, is that which the market is willing to pay.

#23 Skoubhie_dubh
Iain Labour's Mrs. T ?....
Like her or not, and I didn't, she didn't turn. ("You turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning.")
Iain has U-turned so often he's dizzy.

OMG have I just realised what's wrong with Scottish Labour?

#11 Soosider. Very well summarized.

I would just add that unionists continue to insist that somehow this industry and revenue is much too volatile for public finance in Scotland and our economy, yet is vital to a State 10 times our population and a linchpin of UK public finance.

How long can can we in Scotland let the British hypocrisy, lies and theft concerning our valuable resources and economy continue?

How sickening this is. The Tories of today, continuing where Maggie left off - putting another nail in a Scottish industry's coffin. And this one is to subsidise the people of England.

If I ever hear another Englander bleating again about how English taxes fund Scotland....

1p a litre. Brilliant. My diesel is now as "cheap" as it was last Friday.

You'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I'm not hanging the flags out.

Meanwhile, "dead" North Sea Oil, (on which we are continually told by the UK Parties, an Independent Scotland couldn't hope to base her economy on), is in such a poor, poor state that the 2 billion required to set the clock back to last week can be easily removed without any affect on investment and development.

Is anyone else wondering what happened here ?

North Sea Oil (and Gas) is generating record revenues for the UK Exchequer. New fields are being discovered or are being considered economically viable on if not a daily then certainly a weekly basis. West Coast Oil is about to take off.

Do we really want a repeat of the Thatcher years where Oil supported her dole queues ? We were told that it was for our own good. Was it ?

Don't fall for the Labour Lie that they will defend Scotland from the Tory-Liberal Democrat Government. Iain Gray, or whoever will replace him,takes their orders from London. They will work for London Labour and their personal places on the established route of the Labour Gravy Train - Council to Holyrood to Westminster.

There is only one solution. Vote for a Scottish Party that will let Holyrood give the orders. Vote for a First Minister of Substance not Spin and a Cabinet of Talent not supine compliance to party ahead of the people.

We have been told often enough by the Unionist cringe that you can't base your spending on oil now we have Tory/Lib doing just that,what an open goal for the SNP and Lab would have been doing the same but then again Lab did not get us into this mess it was America the bankers and it was going to take Brown to save the world now Gray will be saving Scotland from Tory/Lib cuts by the likes of the BBC and anti SNP press.
If people can't see how Scotland has been conned by Westminster all these years then we will always be second class,come on hold your heads up high and be proud and let us take control of our on destiny and not always blame someone else.

I wont mention the website but there was a very good article about divorce on it worth a read by all.

Oil tax hike will cost Scottish jobs
But hey, it's only Scotland, so it doesn't really matter.

Independence - NOW

No4: Cheesed Off

See article below on conclusions from an independent report:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7771304.stm

or this article in the Herald

https://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/iain-macwhirter/green-shoots-to-nurture-from-nuclear-s-death-knell-1.1092199

We cannot become too reliant on wind power, it is inherently unreliable. When we needed it most last December, when energy use was at a peak during the coldest month for 50 years there was no wind and the windfarms were useless!

My post at #11 asked a question, it is noteworthy that no Unionist has chosen to try to answer it !!!
The question was
"I wonder if any Unionist would care to explain how in a time when we are trying to grow our industries such a savage and disproportionate levy is placed on Scotlands main employer?"
Just typical, you can never find a Unionist when you want one. A bit like Mr Gray they seem to have gone into hiding.

55. At 11:06am on 24th Mar 2011, soosider wrote:
"A bit like Mr Gray they seem to have gone into hiding."

Who's he?

So fuel duty has been cut by 1p. WOW! I couldn't sleep last night with this exciting and wonderful news.

I don't think I'll bother to hold my breath on that one. I reckon the fuel price will have risen ABOVE this pathetic 1p drop before March is out. In fact I don't think we will reach the end of next week before the 1p drop has been reinstated by higher gas prices at the pumps.

So the question is "what exactly has his chancellorshipn ess achieved?"

In my view NOTHING except continue to lie, con and defraud Scotland. Unfortunately even these blatant con jobs done by the Con/Dems are still ignored. I really do wish the people of Scotland would WAKEN UP. How many MORE lies and deceitful statements do we have to endure from Westminster BEFORE the good people of Scotland recognise the actual truth about what is happening to our beloved country and its resources?

To paraphrase Chruchhill

Never before in the history of British budgets has so much of Scotlands resources been taken for the benifit of so few Scots.


This is a direct attack on our and our childrens future.

This Osbborne budget is just a massive campaigning boost for the SNP.

Perhaps the Conservatives would be good enough to explain how the tax on North Sea revenues differs from the "Tesco Tax" they so vociferously argued against in the Scottish Parliament? Other than the fact that for them it's politically expedient, of course.

Its really hyped - 1p off fuel. Who will notice, its lost in the noise of forecourt pricing.

Or you could measure it as 50 miles on the A9, since prices seem to rise 1p a litre
every 50 miles further north you go...

#54.

All anyone has to know about the 'impartiality' of the 'Scottish Council for Development and Industry' over Nuclear is that British Energy is leading member.

British Energy was the Company Taken over By EDF Energy in Jan 2009, which is biggest uk generator of electricity from Nuclear power, with 8 Nuclear installations, including Torness and Hunterston B.

The joys of the internet. If only the bbc would provide such nuggets of information to support their 'independent report' claims, then we could judge for ourself the merit of such sweeping, printed, statements.


In any case, just how much energy could Scotland afford to actually import if we didn't have to prop up our needy, energy and resource strapped and burgeoning debt ridden neighbour?

54. At 11:05am on 24th Mar 2011, edinchris

Oops!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567092/Nuclear-shutdown-threatens-winter-blackouts.html

Good job the wind was blowing to keep them as safe as possible.

My #60 - that would apply to the Lib Dems as well, of course.

Para 2.28 of the Budget Red Book says

"Funding for the devolved administrations – All spending figures above include
Barnett consequentials where appropriate."

The problem, of course, is that the Treasury makes totally arbitrary decisions as to which expenditures are English (and result in Barnett consequentials) and those English projects that they deem to be UK expenditure, and simply increase our subsidy of the UK Government wearing its English hat.

A Tax on Scotland's North Sea jobs in order to subsidise Chelsea's Tractors.
When will we learn that Westminster Seriously Damages Scotland's Health.
Slainte Mhor

Apologies my post #54 should have stated 'British Energy is a leading member'.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#5 Cheesed_off......funny,clever, your own work?

PS.....Expect more and more illegal fuel syphoning or red coloured stuff being used where it should not.....

Personally looking at crisp'n dry alternate 50/50 DIY mix, its still heavy oil........sure I saw a bloke on the BBC doing that with his landrover.....

Please can anyone tell me why Mr O was looking so smug after his delivery, Bella (cringe) must be crying infamy the've all got it infurrmy....

listen to you all, so anti-uk and anti-england, its so funny, you'll never vote for independance as a nation, what else would you moan about ?



- an english scot who's never looked back!

69. At 12:36pm on 24th Mar 2011, redrobb wrote:

#5 Cheesed_off......funny,clever, your own work?

No an email.

I note that Anas Sarwar MP has been whining in the Commons about his own party's incompetence and inability to read a simple piece of text (with explanatory diagrams)!

The Electoral Commission's rules on the Regional Party List is absolutely clear (to normal people) -

"A party submitting a party list must use the party's name as the description to appear on the statement of persons and parties nominated and on the ballot paper. The party name can be preceded by the word 'Scottish' if it is not already part of the name.

In addition, the party may choose to follow the party name with one of the descriptions the party has registered with the Commission. For example if 'Vote Party' had registered a description of 'Democracy for all, then its regional list could use the following descriptions:


Party name : Vote Party
Party name preceded by Scottish : Scottish Vote Party
Party name followed by description : Vote Party Democracy for all
Party name preceded by Scottish , followed by description : Scottish Vote Party Democracy for all


The SNP has registered the following descriptions


Scottish National Party
SNP
Scottish National Party (SNP)
Scottish National Party (Leader - Alex Salmond)
Alex Salmond For First Minister
Scottish National Party (Scotland's Party)
Alex Salmond (Leader - Scottish National Party)
Giving Scotland a voice in Europe
Fighting for Scottish jobs in Europe
Protecting Scottish jobs, working for recovery
Working for Scottish jobs and recovery


Labour has registered these


The Labour Party Candidate
Labour Party Candidate/Ymgeisydd Plaid Lafur
Scottish Labour Party Candidate
Labour Party Candidate
Y Blaid Lafur
Scottish Labour Party
Labour Representation Committee
The Labour and Co-operative Party Candidate (Joint Description with Co-operative Party [The])
Welsh Labour
Welsh Labour Candidate
Welsh Labour Party Candidate


Greetin weans!

70 "what else would you moan about ?"

I am not sure what an 'English Scot is', cant remember seeing that on any census, but sounds 'British' to me...anyway you raise a point.

Scots are a fairly disputative lot but what would we moan about after independence?

I guess we would moan about the continuing deterioration of the situation of the rump UK and wish to assist in any way we can as a good neighbour.

I would suggest the majority of commentators on here need to revise their mindset from perpetual victim to that of broad thinker.

There seems to be a consensus that the Tories see Scotland as some sort of cash cow to be exploited for the benefit of the UK as a whole. They don't. They don't differentiate like that.

They are about giving their wealthy friends (many of whom are proud Scots) an easier route to becoming richer, while taking away opportunities from those not born into privillage. They don't care which part of the UK suffers most, and if you think that is Scotland you need to travel more.

I think you should stop being so defensive about being Scottish and focused more on the wider picture, it may help you see more clearly.

Incidentally, as you're all so keen to get nationalistic about it, the extra cash raised from North Sea oil is supposedly going towards paying the debt we now all have after bailing out the Scottish banks. Along with the extra VAT from the rest of the UK, of course. Someone has to pay Mr Goodwin's pension! He is one of yours, isn't he?

74. At 14:40pm on 24th Mar 2011, stirling222 wrote:

bailing out the Scottish banks

Still peddling nonsense and can you please explain that name Halifax Nova Scotia!

In all the hooha over the Budget, we have lost sight of the attack on Scotland's fisc from the actions of Wendy Alexander's scrutiny of the Scotland Bill. It sticks in the throat to say it but thank heavens for Westminster and their scrutiny Committee pointing out some of the more glaring consequences of this ill drafted Bill in the Budgetary field. Her convenorship of the Scottish Parliament's Committee on this has seriously damaged the respect in which the Scottish Parliamentary scrutiny process should be held.
As to the Budget itself, if the SNP cannot make hay with the North Sea oil and gas being singled out to bail out Britain, then no-one will ever make a financial case for independence.

On which subject, thanks to the information from reincarnation, I feel that all SNP candidates should use the description "Scottish Scottish National Party" just so no-one is deceived.

I used to get annoyed with Unionist posters who referred to "Scottish banks". After all, the Bank of Scotland is/was a multi-national corporation, paying tax on at least three continents, that maintained some headquarters functions in Edinburgh for presentational purposes.

If the BoS was a "Scottish bank" in any meaningful sense then I, as Dorothy Parker had it, "am Marie of Roumania"

These days, that stuff doesn't bother me so much, anymore. Seek to do down a nation on the basis of the failure of the international banking industry - see where it gets you.

No, what riles me these days are idiots who still bleat on about "a bailout" as though something has been fixed, via the process of 'bailing out'. It hasn't. All we've done with our billions of public money, is prop up the banks' liquidity. The toxic debt is still debt. None of it's been repaid as part of the 'bailout'. The boat's still holed below the waterline.

And, by its very definition, 'bailing out' is something you have to keep doing because when you stop, the boat sinks. And we haven't got the money for any more bailouts. So, sooner or later, this ship is sinking.

And, when it does, maybe you'll start focussing on "the wider picture" instead of blindly buying in to the 'bailout' myth.

#75 Is that it? Is that your idea of a riposte?

Were the profits turned by RBS not cited as a strength by Salmond? Yes.

Would the oil money cover RBS's bailout and the running of Scotland? No.

What does "can you please explain that name Halifax Nova Scotia!" mean?

#77 Are the majority of RBS's branches in Scotland? Are its headquarters in Edinburgh? Would an independent Scottish government demand the right to tax the profits as it sees fit? Then it's a Scottish bank, mate, multinational or not.

Comfortable taking on that much debt are you?

I see that the BBC Scotland leaders' debate is to be hosted by one Glenn Campbell.

Given that Iain Gray is currently a leader without any followers - he remains the leader of the Labour group at Holyrood, despite that even he is no longer a member - it is nice to see that at least of of his supporters will be in Perth on 1 May...

#78 - "Were the profits turned by RBS not cited as a strength by Salmond? Yes."

Of course they were, an Edinburgh HQ meant taxes on these profits would be paid in Scotland.
---

"Would the oil money cover RBS's bailout and the running of Scotland? No."

Was a "bail out" the only option? No, not be any stretch of the imagination. Would an independent Scotland have been oblidged to bail out these banks? No, they are international co-operations (the word international implies more than 1 nation in case that was causing you problems).
---

"What does "can you please explain that name Halifax Nova Scotia!" mean?"

Can you show us a map of Scotland and point to where Halifax is on it? Of course you can't.

74. At 14:40pm on 24th Mar 2011, stirling222 wrote:

I would suggest the majority of commentators on here need to revise their mindset from perpetual victim to that of broad thinker.

Indeed - broaden away, we can watch.

Perhaps the wealthy friends the Tories look to assist are well represented
in Scotland ?. Certainly their voters are not. Maybe you could point to a
few ?.

As for bailing out Scottish Banks... that ground has been well covered.
And it has been shown that a) the banks in question are not Scottish
owned and b) that the licences and regulations that they operated under are
not provided by the Scottish Government... and thus the losses or exposure
they created is not a Scottish tax payers responsability.

Stirling222
What is your point?
Do you believe that "We are all in this together?"
Or do you think that Scotland is too poor or too stupid to be able to manage without Westminster's interference?
The "Scottish Banks" were "City of London Institutions" caught up in their dash for cash - along with all of the financial institutions "controlled" by New Labour's Gordon Brown.
Would we have run things as badly from Edinburgh? Who knows.
Could we have run things much worse than Westminster? No chance with Swinney on the purse strings.
Westminster has taxed Scottish jobs to enable Chelsea Tractor to save a pound at the pumps - and their petrol costs less than ours!!!
Slainte Mhor

stirling222
ok what was the actual cost of bailing out the banks? now I can quote you chapter and verse from the treasuries own figures, but I wonder if you actually have any idea of the actual cost. Go on I await your reply, while you are at it do feel free to ask my previous question to unionists, over 6 hours and still not the merest resemblance of a reply. Hope I do not have to wait tooo long for your reply and try to be accurate and quote sources for be sure I will.

#72, reincarnation wrote:

Labour has registered these [descriptions with the Electoral Commission]

The Labour Party Candidate
Labour Party Candidate/Ymgeisydd Plaid Lafur
Scottish Labour Party Candidate
Labour Party Candidate
Y Blaid Lafur
Scottish Labour Party
Labour Representation Committee
The Labour and Co-operative Party Candidate (Joint Description with Co-operative Party [The])
Welsh Labour
Welsh Labour Candidate
Welsh Labour Party Candidate



So, no "Iain Gray for First Minister" then....

Given that only through confusion could the party garner floating votes, I am surprised they didn't try "Not Not Not Scottish Labour - Not!"

81. At 16:17pm on 24th Mar 2011, ForteanJo wrote:

"What does "can you please explain that name Halifax Nova Scotia!" mean?"

Can you show us a map of Scotland and point to where Halifax is on it? Of course you can't.

---

No, but I CAN show you a map of Nova Scotia with Halifax on it.

Nova Scotia is NOT Scotland, any more than devilspawn Damien Thorn is related to the ill-fated Darien (mis)adventures responsible for the [temporary*] loss of our nation....


* I still hope to live to see Scotland seated at the tables of the UN, EU, etc.

#79 For your information the RBS group has around 400 branches in Scotland and around 1200 down south

#79 - "Would an independent Scottish government demand the right to tax the profits as it sees fit? Then it's a Scottish bank, mate, multinational or not."

If Scotland was independent, there is a good probability that banks such as RBS would have branches in England. Are you claiming that in that scenario these English bases branches would pay zero tax towards the London treasury? Obviously they wouldn't because, according to you, that would make these banks English.

I take it you think Nissan is a british car manufacturer because it has a plant in Sunderland and Microsoft is a british softwear giant. These two companies pay tax to the treasury so must be british, right?

78. At 15:59pm on 24th Mar 2011, stirling222

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Scotland_plc

'With a history dating to the 17th century, it is the second oldest surviving bank (the Bank of England having been established one year before) in what is now the United Kingdom, and is the only commercial institution created by the Parliament of Scotland to remain in existence.'

Do some research before posting please.

#81

Sorry but you can't enjoy the taxes a Scottish-based company provides then shrug your shoulders and call it a multinational when it all goes wrong. (do I really have to explain this?) Your government couldn't have allowed one of your biggest tax revenues to disappear.

Btw I'm half Scottish (hence my name) and know of no Halifax there so you've embarrassed yourself. I suspect the question is making reference to early Scottish settlers in Canada but I don't know what it'll prove.

#79 - stirling222:

Is that it? Is that your idea of a riposte?

You do know, presumably, that the Royal Bank of Scotland Group consists of RBS, Natwest and the Ulster Bank. Where are the majority of NatWest's branches? Where, tricky one this, are the majority of the Ulster Bank's branches? If geographical location is your yardstick - what is it about either of these subsidiaries that makes them Scottish?

As far as headquarters are concerned - please see my #77 above, specifically the bit that reads, "that maintained some headquarters functions in Edinburgh for presentational purposes."

Now, to business, I notice you haven't addressed the thrust of my post (Which rather foreshadows ForteanJo's #81).

You ask, "Comfortable taking on that much debt are you?"

I say, please provide evidence to show that an independent Scottish Government would take the same approach as the UK Government did, post 2009? In my view, if they were sensible, they wouldn't have "[taken] on that much debt". Ever. They'd have guaranteed the public's deposits, brokered a sale of the (still reliable) retail arm and let private equity rip the 'casino' investment arm apart for whatever it was worth (not much, would be my guess).

That way, the toxic debts would be expunged - i.e. valued at market rates, which would entail a massive depreciation but would at least pop the poisonous CDO/CDS bubble so that faith in what was left could be restored.

As it is, because G Brown in his wisdom, decided to prop up the whole, ludicrously unbalanced edfice, we have all taken on a far greater level of debt than we might otherwise have had to do without in any way addressing the central problem which is that the banks are still trading on debt-backed paper (Only now, everybody knows it - which is why banks still aren't lending and the economy isn't growing)

So, no - I wouldn't be comfortable with taking on that much debt. But I'm even less comfortable with the amount we have taken on. In particular, I'm even less comfortable with the way my indebtedness (and my children's and my grandchildren's) was dressed up as being 'vital' to save the economy. It didn't. It hasn't. Alternative action might have.

Comfortable with that, are you?

#81 - "Your government couldn't have allowed one of your biggest tax revenues to disappear."

So you claim the banks still provided massive revenue streams but required bailing out? Which is it? (And you think I've embarrassed myself!!)

Of course, I should congratulate you on solving the UK's immigration problems. The minute somebody pays tax in britain, they're british!

soosider: I'm sure I could find sources and quote them 'chapter and verse' but have no inclination to. From my memory the figure is between £800-900b. So what? it makes no difference to my argument.

Btw the way I'm no unionist. I'm English and Scottish but cringe at many of my Scottish compatriots' nationalism. I have no particular feelings one way or the other about independence.

As for you whinging about the oil companies being taxed??? You sound like a tory, mate. Would you rather the low-middle earners south of the border paid even more VAT? Do you only see injustice when it's Scots on the wrong end?

I believe the oil companies should be taxed more, along with the banks, Vodafone et al, and if they bleat about not investing or moving - good. let them go. Without them we'd probably have a more equal society, but they're talking out their backsides anyway. While a profit is still to be had they are going nowhere, and if they won't invest someone else will. They can't take the North Sea with them.

I think the Nationalists do have a point here. As most of the oil is in Scottish waters, the Chancellor should have given more of the benefits to Scotland from the extra tax, especially to reduce oil prices in the Highlands and Islands.
I do have less sympathy however with the howls of protest coming from the oil companies. As the cost of oil has moved from $80 a barrel in October to $115 a barrel currently, oil companies have seen a huge surge in profits that they wouldn’t have predicted and I don’t think this tax will have as big an effect as they claim on jobs and investment. As they are global corporations, I am not sure how much of this investment would be directed at Scotland anyway. At least we will all benefit from a slight decrease in petrol prices, and the Chancellor has given a guarantee to re examine the tax should oil prices fall.

The Nationalists have been arguing for some time that Scotland should have control of oil revenues, and there is certainly a case to be made for that. However, the volatility in oil prices is a big downside to this. As recently as January 2009, oil stood at $40 a barrel, having fallen from over $100 a year before and depending on events in Libya, it could soon begin falling again. It would be very hard to make any budgetary plans for future years of government spending if our income was linked to the price of oil when it is so hard to predict what will happen it.

It is also worth remembering that UK taxpayers money was used to bail out the banks in Scotland at the start of the financial crisis. RBS has its headquarters in Edinburgh so just as the Irish government was responsible for bailing out Irish banks and the Icelandic government was responsible for bailing out their banks so the UK taxpayer bailed out RBS. We should not forget that they lost £24 billion in 2008/9 and they are still losing money today. By contrast, North Sea oil revenues in 2008/9 were about £10 billion. The unfortunate truth is that banks based in Scotland including RBS and HBoS were the two worst offenders in causing the financial crisis in the UK. We can argue with some justification that oil profits should be distributed more in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, but on the other hand, I am very grateful that the cost of bailing out banks that were mainly headquartered in Scotland was met by taxpayers from across the UK and not just Scottish taxpayers. You don’t have to look far (just across the Irish Sea in fact) to see how things could have been very different for us.

90. At 16:42pm on 24th Mar 2011, stirling222 wrote:

#81

Sorry but you can't enjoy the taxes a Scottish-based company provides then shrug your shoulders and call it a multinational when it all goes wrong.

Well by your definition then its not a Scottish bank.

I see stirling222 is doing bank heist on the blog...

Bandages_For_Konjic you make a good point but what has it to do with 2011? I am not sticking up for GB but we're all experts after the event. Moping and whinging about what 'should have' been done helps no one. This blog is about the recovery. Btw GB is Scottish and you can bet he'd have been a big player in Holyrood had he not been in Westminster, so an independent Scotland with Scottish MPs are not automatically going to be acting in the majority's interest or making consistently correct decisions which is what is quite regularly implied here.

FourteanJo, you should really try again when you are fiftean.

#93 - "Btw the way I'm no unionist. I'm English and Scottish but cringe at many of my Scottish compatriots' nationalism. I have no particular feelings one way or the other about independence."

Yet you seem quite keen to push the unionist mantra of "too poor, too wee, too stupid". Time to come out of the closet, me thinks.

No sorry you do not get off that easy, the actual cost of the bank bail out has been just over £6bn, yep £6bn. The rest has been in buying shares that continue to have value and actually are likely to return a profit, in the mid to long term so can not be viewed as a cost. Also the guarentees to underwrite some debts does not actually cost unless the guarantee scheme is used, which so far it has not therefore there is no cost to that either.
Unlike you a prefer to research information to form my view, oh by the way the source of my information is actually HM treasury. Now you maybe finding that hard to believe but go and have a look for reliable data and not just newspaper articles go to the source and read it for your self.
"Btw the way I'm no unionist" you protest but sorry to tell you but you have all the attributes of one, as for being English and Scottish that is just silly, if you had claimed to be English and British or even Scottish and British that would have made sense, but you can not be both English and Scottish you are one or the other.
I will not respond to your name calling, to my mind it only demonstrates the weakness of your case.
Tax has to be fair and proportionate, this hike on the Gas and Oil is neither, and as I asked earlier why of all the industries only the Gas and Oil one was selected for a massive hit. Given that it is such a massive employer in Scotland I believe I am perfectly at liberty to protest about this and to see the unfairness of it.

#94 - "We can argue with some justification that oil profits should be distributed more in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, but on the other hand, I am very grateful that the cost of bailing out banks that were mainly headquartered in Scotland was met by taxpayers from across the UK and not just Scottish taxpayers. You don’t have to look far (just across the Irish Sea in fact) to see how things could have been very different for us. "

Whilst there is some merit in most of what you say, and it all seems a quite reasonable argument, your whole assertion rests on the premise that a bank bailout was the only course of action available. Not everyone agrees that this was the case.