Irish stew (1)

Everybody is busy blogging about a loan that Ireland does not want and suggesting that a Lisbon II is on the cards when it is difficult to see how such a prospect will get past the voters and could open up the rumbling fault line on Europe in the Tory Party. Is it inconceivable that the coalition may include New Labour in the not too distant future!

You ask

'Could a British, Eurosceptic, Conservative prime minister have to pledge billions to save the euro from collapse?'

Is this not related to your later point ?

'we do contribute to an EU crisis "mechanism" - signed up to by Alistair Darling in those five days in May after the election'

In other words do we have any choice ?

More interesting is what Redwood says that you DONT quote, Nicholas:

He goes on to say:

"Why would members of Euroland want to do this, as all the public debate about crisis and the need for emergency responses is bound in the short term to make things worse.? All the talk of contagion just puts the idea into the market that the problems might not end with Ireland. Either the Euro powers that be are incompetent, and do not understand how they can induce falling markets by saying too much and doing too much, or they are out to ensnare Ireland into new controls and conditions, to strengthen the EU’s hand in economic governance. The EU has never liked Ireland’s attractive low Corporation Tax rate, and would dearly love to be able to force that up."

Amongst other things.

But, as ever.... if it looks like a stick with which you can give the tories a whack on the head, then who are you to look a gift horse in the mouth, eh?

' The longer the crisis goes on the more demands will increase for greater EU powers'

For members of the euro maybe. Don't see these powers applying to the UK.

It WAS news to me that Britain had signed-up to the Euro rescue fund - Alistair Darling - post election!! I don't recall hearing this before. Yet another gift from Labour. No doubt the Europhiles and socialists and all their fellow-travellers will see this as a good thing. These will be the same people berating this government for making cuts while at the same time praising the foresight of the last (let's hope so) Labour government for giving UK money to a Euro crisis fund.

I do accept that the UK has a strong vested interest in offering support to Ireland, I would just like to see this structured outside of a Euro environment.

There is something to be said for Ireland and the weak southern European countries, exiting the Euro (Does France fall into this category??) and then they can take greater control of their destiny - it might even be in the economic interest of the north European countries to financially support/facilitate that.

I sense that the pressure on Ireland, is that the purchasers of Irish government bonds scent blood and speculate (naughty word, I know but allow me) they can extract more support for Ireland by their feeding the crisis and this will strengthen their holdings.

Given the austerity measures already taken, I am not sure how much more the Irish could do.

Ah, well done Nick, you've caught up.

This whole thing needs to be adressed properly, and it's ireland's misfortune to be in the sights at the moment.

They, alonmg with several other misguided governments. thought Browns plan to solve the problem was the right way to go 2 years ago, and now finding out, the hard way, that it wasn't.

They may have been able to paper over the cracks, and they may have been able to obtain bank loans from the ECB which mature next summer, and enable the politicians to state that they are fully funded at the monent, hence no problem.

Till next summer, when the ECB wants it money back, and the rest of the world don't want to lend, because they haven't addressed the underlying banking problems. To that matter, neither have we, properly, but at least things are improving.

The whole process was just a financial sleight of hand, and it still is, and all the litlle ducks, and pigeons, and chickens are coming home to roost, so to speak. Ireland has to take the money, to save Portugal from immediate problems. Portugal will take its place in the firing line next month, and, of course, Greece hasn't really sorted itself out at all. the whole thing is a mess.

And, ad in the fact that an article in Bild suggest that the good ole germans will not be hurrying up to bail anybody else out - they just can't afford it.

I'm afraid all the politicians of all the governments have brought us to this sorry state. We should have let the banks fail, if they were going to, 2 years ago. the whole option is presenting itself again. Hopefully now the politicians will have the strength to bite the bullet and let it happen. I'm comforted by knowing that they have far fewer otpions available to them this time round, and time isn't one of them. they've used it up, and it's run out.

As Nick points out:-

"Although Britain is not in the euro and thus does not contribute to the eurozone crisis fund, we do contribute to an EU crisis "mechanism" - signed up to by Alistair Darling in those five days in May after the election."

Another unfunded commitment made by labour, even after the election when labour knew they had lost!

John Redwood and Douglas Carswell make good sense with their comments.

The UK should support Ireland, but not via the labour EU route, but directly, allowing Ireland to keep its financial independence from the EU.

The UK should make it clear in no uncertain terms that as one of the main contributors to EU finances, it will not allow Ireland to be bullied into submission by eurozone countries.

Nick,

We are not an economic island we are connected to the countries with which we trade - their problem is our problem. 70% of our 'external' trade is with Europe. I am astonished that you seem in the least surprised!

The anti-European humbug that is peddled in the press hides the reality. We MUST live in the real world and join the Euro because at present we get all the costs without any of the benefits.

The rabid nonsense from our right wing press (and MP/Parties/factions that pander to this nonsense) is crippling our country - we must let them know on this and on every possible occasion.

Collective suicide is what the CONDEMs seem to be suggesting - no different from Blair/Brown that surrendered sovereignty to the EUSSR in 1997.
The EUSSR was never the reason why Britain became Great Britain.
In 1688, we walked away from Rome's embrace - and over 308 years created PlanetEnglish : USA,Australia,Canada etal.
The EUSSR is a road to nowhere - a bottomless pit.
The PIGS know that Germany and Britain are locked into Rome's death embrace.
Britain, in order to remain great, must know her lessons of history.
The French confronted USA and collapsed Bretton Woods in 1971 - within 25 years of oblivion during WW2.
The French/German joint venture EUSSR was created to end PlanetEnglish domination.
In 1971, bravely, the USA walked away from the EUSSR.
Nixon & Kissinger chose Asia-Pacific over the EUSSR - and 30 years later you can see the results.
The Pacific embrace: USA has been joined by other parts of PlanetEnglish
- Australia, Canada, N Zealand, India - are all now part of APEC.
The EUSSR is not where Britain can ever become Great again.
Lessons of history - are meant to be exactly that.
In 1997, Blair/Brown ended our 308 years of Greatness.
And in 13 years, we are staring down this bottomless PIGS pit.
Scotland may have a 800 year alliance with the French.
England does not. Never will.
If we dont heed the call of retrurning to PlanetEnglish now - it may be too late.
USA, Australia, Canada : have carved their futures within APEC.
We must join the Winning Team - as we were responsible in creating them.
13 years of PIGS is enough experimentation time.
Time to return as LIONS.

Of course we must help Ireland if it wants help and because it is a good friend and neighbour not so as to try and destablize the Euro.

In the past crisis' like this must have gone on all the time and we knew little or nothing about them or the mechanics of world finance. Governments just got on with the job.

Now we all know everything. Well some think they do.

Cant make my mind up whether it is good or bad that now the Chancellor has every media outlet and every one who wants to keep tabs on him looking over his shoulder. Does it keep him in check or hinder ?

Maybe it's time the British taxpayer had a say in any plan to support the Republic of Ireland. I don't recall any occasion when Ireland was willing to offer support to Britain, apart from helping the last Labour government to push through the Lisbon treaty signing Ireland has been historically on the side of Europe and in fact could never be regarded as an ally. If Ireland is in financial trouble, let the Eurozone get them out of it, they caused it but will not admit to their culpability.

Of course they're going to bail them out Nick, and of course they won't get anything in return for it. Really the whole experiment should be dismantled responsibly of course over the next 10 years or so and everyone would be much happier.

Regarding Post #9
Any idea where I can get a couple of cases what this person is drinking? It would greatly liven up the post Chrsitmas dinner games.

8#

Theres always one... I'm kinda surprised its you, its normally Saga.

Poster # 8
Are you and Planet English actually the same person but posting rabid rants just to 'sex-up' this blog? Are you an agent-provocateur? Are you Nick Robinson?
Let me test your sanity level. Apart from yourself, roughly how many people do you think, there are in Britain today, who would actually vote to join the Euro? Could we fit them all in a mini to drive them to the polling booth? Remember that lunatics and lords don't have the vote.

Get real - thankfully no British politician in his right mind would put forward a suggestion that we should even consider joining the Euro, so why try to discuss this? (Hmm! dangerous territory and images - politician, right mind!?!? Computer says NO)

apparentently Ireland is one of our biggest exporters ? looks like only as a result of the fake boom. Shows the mess that brown got us into,

CD+GO should say no then the euro project is dead in the water. go for it

#8 Mr Hendon

I can't believe I read that properly - JOIN the Euro? One of the most discredited financial constructions ever, and you want us to JOIN it?

tsk, tsk.

13 obritomf re 9 PlanetEnglish

I think you are a little hard on PlanetEnglish

He expresses himself rather quaintly but beneath that he makes good and valid points. Those who forget their history are in trouble.

Being very much a pro Europe person myself I dont necessarily agree with him but enjoyed reading his opinion.

Ireland owes GB about $150bn and so a £7bn share is pretty good insurance cover. Provided the small print (recurring amounts for the rescue of the other PIGS [Italy can take Ireland's place in the acronym once Ireland has been rescued a few more times] and, then, rescue in turn of all the other countries until our own rescue, which (I assume) would be free) is OK.

"Irish stew" Nick Robinson? Have you tried it? Do you know how it evolved?

From poverty Nick Robinson, poverty.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Greater political and economic integration amongst member states will improve the long term health of the common currency. Osborne knows this as well as anybody. His problem - in assessing how best to get us in - is how to convince the rather euro-sceptical British public. Step one could be to "come out" himself as a supporter of us joining (the Euro) but this would put at risk his whole political career. Takes a very big man to risk his whole political career ... even for something he knows in his heart of hearts is right.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

To read some of the sums quoted in benefit to the economy of the Royal engagement/wedding, 500m average, you would think the Chancellor had the luck of the Irish.

Asda is already selling mugs, (to mugs?), at five pounds a time. Now is that an extra fiver or a fiver that would otherwise have been spent on something else anyway ?

Perhaps some more economically wise posters can explain where this 500m extra is coming from.

Isn't this just a stage-managed posture to calm the markets?

Europe: 'Take a dollop of cash'
Mrs Doyle: 'Put your purse away. I'm paying.'
Europe: 'Ah go on. Plenty more where that came from. Take it'.
Mrs Doyle: 'No, no, no'
Europe: 'Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on..... etc.'
George: 'My round, I think!'

It's all very reassuring.

Ireland meanwhile must have a cunning plan involving a rise in Corporation tax and making the likes of Bono pay a little bit of income tax.

How delightful to read Marc Coleman's blog on the Irish economy - a breath of fresh air on the BBC from another political and business commentator that breaks down the facts that not only related to the RoI?

As much as the well-known BBC journalist's blogs on business and politics are welcome for their experience - but there comes a time for a wider view on Europe, the Euro, and the European economy as a symbiotic creation that is unfairly reported by an isolation attitude purpetuated by those journalists who are straddling the Atlantic divide that is
growing and yet to split their pants?

22#

LOL @ Saga

Right so we're even more in this together are we? Perhaps that will stop any banking bonuses getting paid this year then when they are built on such foundations of sand.

Remember madness is continuing to do what you've always done in the expectation of a different outcome.

8 John_from_Hendon

We MUST live in the real world and join the Euro because at present we get all the costs without any of the benefits.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Of the €750 billion safety net for the euro zone, €440 billion is made up of guarantees from 16 individual euro-zone countries in the European Stability Financial Facility (EFSF). €60 billion comes from the European Commission, and €250 billion will be provided by the IMF. (source The Economist)

How would the UK benefit by taking a share of the EFSF €440 bn liability in addition to its EC and IMF share?

Hint: Saga has a special calculator he may be willing to lend to you.

This blog now officially qualifies as lala land.

We will support any bailout of Ireland - we have to really, they are a close trading partner and we are signed up to help out in any EU 'crisis'

It is a small investment compared to our losses if they should default (which they won't)

I don't think we will be joining the Euro any time soon, I think that there needs to be some serious rethinking about a mechanism to prevent this happening again with the Euro, there are too many factors for a single currency centrally controlled to work effectively

I think we will be better off if we did join the Euro - but not now and not until these points have been addressed

#25 Edith - they tried to get Bono to pay a bit of tax, he upped and came to Holland and set up business here!

Just as Euroland is made up of different economic regions (or countries if you like) so is the UK. Different areas subsidise others under both the Euro and the £. The Euro is bigger and more complex and so surpise surpise the problems end up bigger and more complex.

Anti Euro people (left and right) will use this as a predictable opportunity to encourage sinking the currency in the most ridiculous and dangerous attempt at "I told you so" ever seen. We should help Ireland if we can (and are asked) simply because its the right thing to do and not dependent on what method we do it - through the Euro or otherwise. This isn't a game.

Interesting that Osborne feels able to offer, 2 possible reasons (or a mixture of them more likely):

1. He knows we have to otherwise UK will suffer more from the consequences of not helping.
2. He knows we can cos although we are not in great shape economically, we are not bankrupt despite what he and Cameron pedalled to scare people before the election and after to support idealogical elements of the cuts.

26#

Did you manage to speak that whole second paragraph of gobbledegook without taking a breath?

Here we see the divided eurosceptic brigade ranting on again and again...and again. No surprises there really. The UK really needs to pull its heads out of the sand and look at the damage previous british governments did when they often refused to cooperate with Europe. Look at the fallout in the UK, choosing instead to support the US and its financial system. Remember Lehman Bros. The cause and effect. Even the damage they did to Britain. But in true upper lip tradition the UK blames Europe except themselves. Lest we all forget, the UK economy and the pound is in a lame duck mess, even more so than Greece or Ireland is by comparison. In some ways, not all, the Irish government is right when it says it is a banking crisis first, and an economic one second. In clear contrast to the the UK's position and the massive cuts soon on there way in Britain to pay for the banker's mistakes. Print that if you may.

Surely this visit by George Osborne to Ireland only serves to highlight the shattering irrelevance of the party formerly known as newlabour?

The fact that the deputy leader of labour can't raise a single question about the subject seems to illustrate either her economic illiteracy or her party's or their failure to put together an opinion, or all three. This would previously have been given the 'it's the right thing to do' treatment by all the yes men on the ex-newlabour front benches. Now silence reigns supreme.

This is how oppositions consolidate their position of irrelevance - by failing to construct a credible argument. Possibly also by relying on publications who regard the Royal wedding as an example of 'sexism' being alive and well in Britain. So now the union of a man and a woman is 'sexist'? Doubtless that's why Ed Milipod has remained unmarried - but will he stay that way before the next election? Somehow, one can't help but feel he is doomed to make the wrong call. On everything. from the chancellor's trip to Dublin, to the importance of reducing the deficit to his own wedding arrangements.

What a time to be a tory...

And congratulations to the Royal couple.

32 TheGingerF

Anti Euro people (left and right) will use this as a predictable opportunity to encourage sinking the currency in the most ridiculous and dangerous attempt at "I told you so" ever seen. We should help Ireland if we can (and are asked) simply because its the right thing to do and not dependent on what method we do it - through the Euro or otherwise. This isn't a game.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If it is in the UK's interest to help Ireland and they wish us to help, then we should.

However, there is no reason why we should support any Eurozone led activity, we chose not to join that club. Instead, we should act via the EC and IMF parts of the package.

It is not playing games or saying "I told you so", it is putting the UK's national interest first.

"They believe that every EU crisis is an opportunity to re-shape Britain's relationship with it and loathe the idea that their government might simply go along with plans to spend more money and give more powers to prop up the euro". Nick Robinson.

========================================

And what is wrong with that pray tell? Every time there is any sort of problem with anything in Europe, the EU itself sees the answer as even more power being granted by national governments to Brussels, (even when that may itself have been the cause of the problem in the first place), strengthening the centre against member states and their citizens. What exactly is wrong with a British government doing the same but in reverse, agreeing to measures that Brussels desperately wants to see enacted, but only on the condition that other powers are repatriated from the EU to our own government? It is time that British ministers learnt how to play the same sort of hardball in these negotiations with the EU commission and parliament that they themselves have so often fallen prey to. With the EU desperate to stave off economic disaster for its precious Euro currency, the time will never be more propitious for such a policy than now!

If we help Ireland and help the Euro at the same time so be it as we cant let either fail as we trade with them . David Cameron maybe a Eurosceptic but he is a realist who will do what has to be done

At this juncture, I reckon its worth repeating the following truism, which I love:
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it wrongly and applying unsuitable remedies...'

Fair and True 7

" The UK should support Ireland, but not via the labour EU route, but directly, allowing Ireland to keep its financial independence from the EU."

I agree with this comment but for reasons which are probably different from yours in believing Ireland should reject a bail-out.

From the point of view of Ireland`s national interest, they would be better out of the Euro as would Greece,Spain and Portugal.They could devalue their currencies,grow their exports and reject EU demands for further spending cuts which are clearly not working.

The price of this would they would probably have to default on their debt,but from the point of view of national interest this is probably their best course.

The prospect terrifies France,Germany and Britain who all have huge stakes in Irish bonds.The Euro would be rocked and probably collapse and world trade decline as the interdependence of banking and finance produces shock waves around the world.

It is paradoxical that Mr.Cameron and Mr.Osborne who are so opposed to
government indebtedness here are willing to support it overseas.

Of course we should help Eire. It's the decent thing to do. And not a million miles from being in our own best interests too, as it happens. My understanding is that we are already committed to this (7bn) helping hand anyway, so George may as well put as good a face on it as possible. Oddly nobody seems to be bothered about there 'being no money left' or 'being on the brink of bankruptcy' ourselves.
Someone mentioned Labour joining the coalition earlier. What would be the point? You wouldn't notice the difference.
As far as guessing games go a United States of Europe is a very good bet within the next 50 years and we would be very much better off socially, politically and economically once we have matured enough to tolerate the idea .

The EU want to give Ireland a loan because such a loan will come with strings that will enable the EU to control the Irish economy.

Ireland should stand firm, their problems at this time have been caused by being in the Euro and the foolish remarks coming from Merkel and the EU. The Irish are going in exactly the right direction with policy to pull their economy back into balance, while at the same time attracting new busines by low tax rates and a skilled work force.

The Irish have declared they do not need a bail out, it is for their Government to decide, not some members of the inept EU. Ireland understands that should they take this money from the EU, the demands in return, will see their economy suffer. Germany sees its power ebbing away, as the Euro has proved to be a massive error and the super state ideal, dead in the water. Time for Ireland to jump ship and move on in its own way.

However one thing this dire situation has illuminated, is the poor state of the UK economy, when exports to Ireland are so high, in comparison to our Global output.

Nick

Like you I was amazed that this topic was not raised at todays PMQs. The implications are huge in that failure in Ireland will not only destabilise the financial markets and possibly signal the end of the Euro but also prompt a mass exodus of people out of the Republic. Are backbench MPs "whipped" in order not to ask awkward questions at PMQs? We should be told.

One way out of this mess is to have a two tier Euro where the high value one is comprised of the rich European economies and the lower value one the PIGS nations. Straight away the PIGS would benefit from more holidaymakers which in turn would kickstart the local construction industries. The EU top brass just do not get it. They think that sloshing vast amounts of money round the system will do the trick and that if you wish hard enough all your dreams will come true.

Rock Robin 35

"This is how oppositions consolidate their position of irrelevance - by failing to construct a credible argument. Possibly also by relying on publications who regard the Royal wedding as an example of 'sexism' being alive and well in Britain. So now the union of a man and a woman is 'sexist'"

I usually hesistate to comment on your nonsense because I realize it is not meant to be taken seriously.

As for questions on the Irish economy,you should be congratulating the opposition for their delicacy in refraining from criticism when a government minister is pursuing British national interest abroad,a courtesy usually observed by the government when they were in opposition.
Thhe main political difficulty for Mr.Osborne is likely to come from his own Eurosceptics, who are being denied a feeding frenzy of schadenfreude over the fate of the Euro.

As for your string of non sequitors related to the forthcoming marriage,you may be interested in a patrotic comment made by this left winger on a previous blog.

" Announcement of the forthcoming marriage of William and Kate,(May all their heirs be blessed),comes at an opportune time for the government.
A royal wedding will fill newspapers for weeks,become an international focus and happily take our minds off more threatening matters like looming cuts and unemployment.

It will be a cohesive event,a bit of royal icing on the cake of a bleak winter.Hats and flags will be sold,street parties organized and pearly king and queens trotted out to prove we are all in this together.

Don`t smirk,pearly kings and street parties are what made Britain great!
As I`ve often said,"God bless you sir."

30. At 12:54pm on 17 Nov 2010, toryandproud wrote:
"This blog now officially qualifies as lala land."

Are you resident?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#35 rockRobin7
'What a time to be a tory...'

Anybody else notice something missing from the above?

There were no questions at pmqs as everyone knows we have to stand by Eire .Pmqs is a show for the public where mps try to point score nothing else its a waste of goverment and party time

It is easy to see why the Germans are furious, for one, the spectre of Weimar is still hovering in the background, even all these decades later.

The Germans wanted the ECB to be a very sober organisation and certainly not be bailing out wanton banks, and by implication, the Governments of those countries where the banks were allowed to run riot with irresponsible lending.

This is the time for policymakers with the ECB/central banks/EU to get a real grip on bank regulation within the Eurozone and of course, our shower at Westmonster to do likewise.

If only we English had 'Mutti' in charge, and that saying something from an English patriot!

Irish Stew Nick Robinson.

Surely i can't be true that Britain's Chancellor, George Osborne is taking £millons out of UK economy causing job losses - and yet is considering putting British tax-payers money to protect the Republic of Ireland economy.

No, Nick Robinson, please re-write your piece. I have obviously missed something?

45#

Indeed. About as patriotic as a left winger could get. Hollow, empty and completely insincere.

I recall a Labour member, long since departed, who took the parliamentary oath with his fingers crossed behind his back. In that respect, it is almost worth admiring the honesty of the Sinn Fein MP's who despite having held seats at Westminster, did not take them up in order to avoid taking the oath... At least they were upfront about it.

34#

Well, as the mods only permit their fellow left wing mates to speak their minds about what they think of the educational levels of some posters on here and their attendant levels of clarity of thought, all I can say in response to that strange post is, I completely disagree.

46#

Even if he's not resident, he's most certainly domiciled there.

"Pmqs is a show for the public where mps try to point score nothing else its a waste of goverment and party time"

Not to mention an opportunity for that totally useless idiot Bercow to get himself as much of an ego polish as possible.

Almost makes you want Mick Martin back..... almost. Come back Betty Boothroyd, all is forgiven.

"I have obviously missed something?"

Yes.

Very obviously. Do not sound so surprised.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

No35 RockingRobin,
I am sure everyone will be impressed with your analysis of economic matters and you expertise as far as 'economic illiterates' are concerned.
Are you the guy that was telling us a few days ago about the commitment of Reagan, Hayek, Rove, Thatcher, Friedman the Adam Smith Institute, and a whole host of others to 'the social democratic consensus?
It must be great time to be a Tory, wallowing in a pool of ignorance.By the way the Bullingdon Kid is in Brussels not Dublin. I at least thought you would have known that.

#29 is that the one he borrowed from Gordon ?

#31 another one those people that like to talk "eqaulity" untill its time to put there hand in their pockets. Its always the left that say pay more tax, untill they have piles of money

Nick says: Could a British, Eurosceptic, Conservative prime minister have to pledge billions to save the euro from collapse? Will David Cameron agree to increased EU powers to avert a future crisis of the sort brewing around Ireland? The answer to both questions appears to be yes which may land the Tory part of this coalition in a very hot Irish stew.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So on the one hand the ConDems want to cut public spending in the UK because there is no alternative, but on the other it’s OK to increase the UK EU payments & spend Billions of Pounds bailing Ireland out because “it’s in the National interest”.

If we are flat broke, where are we going to find the cash; maybe Ozzy can visit Brown’s magic money tree – where else are we going to find it?

Didn't we stay out of the Euro to avoid problems like this?

Fubar 53

Do you really agree with post 34 I am surprised. Why???

#44 catblogger

Strangely the old two tier system has been tried many times in the past. Belgium had it for years in the form of Convertible francs and Financial francs; we used to have it in the form of Premium Dollars; and S africa still has it, as does China.

Essentially official exchange, backed up with all the apporpriate formal documentation, is conducted by authroised partes at the "official" rate. everything else is done at the "free market" rate. This makes no difference to individuals going on holiday, for example, who buy their money at the free market rate.

Naturally such innovations ome at a price. Somebody has to draw up all the rules. The documents need to be printed. You need an army of civil servants to back it all up.

Fortunately, we are a free economy and able to do what we want, and this solution would only apply to the eurozone, and they've already got all the infrastructure. They just need to get the will to do it.

#35 its probably sexist to put the fathers name on the birth certificate too ? Has he enter his name on that ?

#62 Susan Croft
'Fubar 53

Do you really agree with post 34 I am surprised. Why???'

Um...

Fubar said about post 34:
'... all I can say in response to that strange post is, I completely disagree.'

It's certainly a great time to be a tory!!!

This is delicious: the tories are going to pay out yet more billions to yet more bankers - but this time it's not even our bankers!

How are you going to blame this one on gordon brown?


It's a great time to laugh at the tories.

forgotton 61

We did indeed and you have a good point, however, the UK is very reliant for exports to Ireland and the banks also would have a problem if Ireland needed a bail out. The point is though, Ireland has said it does not need a bail out. The issue only really came about with the Markets because of the EU being vocal about their doubts about Irelands economy. A very foolish thing to do, Merkel particularly should have known better. It does make you wonder what the EUs motives are in all of this.

It is not Irelands duty to worry about the problems of other EU Countries. Its only responsibility is to its own people, their economy and doing the best they can to ride the storm of this recession. Up to now the Irish Government has been doing a very good job to that end.

Poprishchin 65

Thank you poprishchin, sorry I got it wrong, too much skip reading I guess. Thanks for letting me know.

Sorry to Fubar as well.


Not sure about the ending though, I though that was Robins sign off.

34#

Suze, the mods will not let me post what I really think of that post. Trust your instincts.

61#

We did stay out of the Euro to avoid stuff like this yes. Unfortunately, when Brown signed Lisbon, all that was for nothing. Likewise, when Darling signed us up to the rescue packages, all that was for nothing.

Call Me Dave however, is far too much of a Europhile to do any different though.

You might want to take a slightly different perspective though, when you consider how much the scottish banks and others are exposed to Eire, not to mention the amount of trade we have with them and notwithstanding, the potential impact on Northern Ireland if Eire goes down the gurgler.

Seven billion might end up being cheap by comparison. Assisting Eire directly or through the IMF would arguably be preferable to this continuing sovietisation of Europe by an unelected, unaccountable cabal.

66#

Did you sleep through the signing of the Lisbon "treaty"? Ever read it?

If you had, then you might realise that your post (like virtually all of the rest of them, without exception) is completely superfluous (go on, look it up, google it...)

It doesnt excuse CMD for not growing a pair, but it does tie one of his hands behind his back.

Or do you just prefer "ignorance is bliss"?

66 jon112dk
This is delicious: the tories are going to pay out yet more billions to yet more bankers - but this time it's not even our bankers!

How are you going to blame this one on gordon brown?
=======================================================

I share your lack of support for such a bail out, but it's somewhat naive and disingenuous to imply that the government have any real choice in the matter. Apparently it was Alistair Darling who signed us up for the EU Crisis mechansim and we are in the IMF as Nick correctly states. Just part of the price we pay for being good europeans I suppose - which ever party is in power.

Whichever party had won the last election, they would still have to do this, so it's not really a party political point. Why else do you think that no Labour MPs - including Ms Harman the acting leader - raised the point at todays PMQs ? I'm not sure why Nick was "amazed" by this point.

As for Gordon Brown, this is just another side effect of the global crisis which he played such an active role in creating. His toxic econimic legacy will be with us for a very long time yet.

Perhaps you should spend a little less time laughing and a bit more considering the issues involved.

66. At 3:36pm on 17 Nov 2010, jon112dk wrote:
This is delicious: the tories are going to pay out yet more billions to yet more bankers - but this time it's not even our bankers!

How are you going to blame this one on gordon brown?
=========================================================================
Well for the first point, it was Labour who splashed out to supposedly saved the banks.

That was all Gordon.

Secondly the Irish issue has nothing to do with any UK Party, however it would impact on the UK directly, So, not only it being the correct thing to do morally, it is also benefiting us directly.

It's a great time to laugh at Labour.

#68
'Not sure about the ending though, I though that was Robins sign off.'

Sorry Susan, I was being ironic... or trying to be. If I've confused you with a tory then you have a heartfelt double apology!

If help from the UK has to go to Ireland for reasons of national interest then George Osborne will have to stand up in the Commons and explain exactly why it is in the national interest.

Definately not a road the previous government would want to go dowm.

Anyone remember the row about the six billion pounds worth of NI increases labour wanted to implement at the same time as Alistair Darling was preparing to sign over six billion to the EU rescue fund?

They treat us like morons with short memories to boot.

42. At 1:56pm on 17 Nov 2010, Andy wrote:
The EU want to give Ireland a loan because such a loan will come with strings that will enable the EU to control the Irish economy.
=========================================================================
Well I suppose some has to.....

#71

Hey fubar - missed you, and at least today no one is blanking all the posts. Not you is it?

I've got no time for brown or any of the others that signed up for the EU. But snooty and wooster are on the bridge now. If they disagree with giving away our money to ireland then the answer is simple: just say NO.

This is about the current government and they seem no better.

73. At 4:05pm on 17 Nov 2010, Chris London

This is hilarious.

By the sound of that you are against a british government bailing out british banks, but your are in favour of a british government bailing foreign banks.

LOL. You couldn't make this up.

Surely if you are a proper tory you would take the view that failing businesses should be allowed to go under - let the market decide, survival of the fittest etc?

#40 bryhers wrote:
"The price of this would they would [sic!?] probably have to default on their debt,but from the point of view of national interest this is probably their best course.

The prospect terrifies France,Germany and Britain who all have huge stakes in Irish bonds.The Euro would be rocked and probably collapse and world trade decline as the interdependence of banking and finance produces shock waves around the world."

I'm trying to understand the relationship, if any, between the two paragraphs I've quoted. Are you saying that it is in Ireland's (enlightened!?) national interest to collapse world trade? My understanding is that Ireland is currently an open economy that relies on free trade and multinational investment. Are you proposing an alternative? What would this altenative entail, for both Ireland and the eurozone?

There is no disputing that Ireland's current woes are largely of its own making. That is one reason why Ireland has tried its best to work through the problems without asking for a "bailout". Now that some form of intervention seems almost certain, it should be remembered (i) that assistance from the UK would be in the form of a loan, not a handout, and (ii) that the UK is not immune from financial disasters, it is less than 35 years since the IMF was asked to intervene after a collapse in confidence in sterling.

#66 Plonker at 1536

"This is delicious: the tories are going to pay out yet more billions to yet more bankers - but this time it's not even our bankers!
How are you going to blame this one on gordon brown?
It's a great time to laugh at the tories."

Erm wasn't the ex chancellor as directed by Bottler do the damage? Of course this was Bottlers fault.

From Nick as shown above, if you bothered to read it!

"Although Britain is not in the euro and thus does not contribute to the eurozone crisis fund, we do contribute to an EU crisis "mechanism" - signed up to by Alistair Darling in those five days in May after the election. In addition, we are shareholders in the IMF who would play a role."

79. At 4:43pm on 17 Nov 2010, johnharris66 wrote:
#40 bryhers wrote:
"The price of this would they would [sic!?] probably have to default on their debt,but from the point of view of national interest this is probably their best course.

The prospect terrifies France,Germany and Britain who all have huge stakes in Irish bonds.The Euro would be rocked and probably collapse and world trade decline as the interdependence of banking and finance produces shock waves around the world."

I'm trying to understand the relationship, if any, between the two paragraphs I've quoted. Are you saying that it is in Ireland's (enlightened!?) national interest to collapse world trade? My understanding is that Ireland is currently an open economy that relies on free trade and multinational investment. Are you proposing an alternative? What would this altenative entail, for both Ireland and the eurozone?"

You clearly missed the irony.An Irish default is in no-ones interest.In resisting a bail-out the Irish are adopting a negotiating position vis a vis Germany to get better terms,specifically to protext their low rate of corporation tax.

There is a risk however that Merkel feels unable to deliver a softer deal for political reasons,leaving Ireland with nowhere to go.This presumably is why Mr.Osborne has hurried abroad with a sackful of cash to provide an alternative route for Ireland if necessary.

You will know from my posts earlier in the year that I regard sovereign debt as stage two of a capitalist crisis.It will also be transformative for the Euro if it survives the shocks,possibly two tier,certainly tighter central control, with a new constitution which will occupy eurosceptics for many happy hours to come.

81. At 4:55pm on 17 Nov 2010, FairandTrue

Come on you tories, come up with something new.

How long does this go on?

Your poster boys are in downing street now, not failed ex-PM gordo.

Surely they can grow a pair and say NO to handing over yet more billions to banks - this time not even our own banks! 'Gordon Brown made us do it' is sounding so feeble.

Apparently the 'national emergency' is so bad that (todays fiasco) we can't afford midwives for pregnant women, but you lot are all in favour of snooty and wooster sending billions to keep irish bankers in the latest model of porsche.

It's a great time to laugh at the tories.

#82 Bryhers

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree with it.

Your assertion that sovereign debt is a stage two of a capitalist crisis is interesting, worthy of discussion, and will no doubt occupy intellectuals, of all political persuasions, for many happy hours to come.

Welcome back to the debate, by the way.

#81

What bit of "we do contribute to an EU crisis "mechanism" - signed up to by Alistair Darling in those five days in May after the election." don't you understand?

It is due to the Bottler that any government is legally bound.

Where is Macavity when he should be available to answer for the mess he created, which will have massive financial implications on every taxpayer for years to come. Not only Ireland bail out, but scottish carriers, PFI, pensions (public and private), massive National debt, massive deficit etc.

None of these things can be fixed by the current government, particularly within 6 months of formation.

FS 52:

I am having trouble finding a point of entry for your criticism I wrote that eurosceptics are being denied a feeding frenzy because Mr.Osborne has gone to Brussels with a bag of money to rescue the Irish banks? Is it possible you are unduly sensitive when a right wing minister wings to Brussels to rescue the Euro?

Or perhapsyou misunderstood my patriotic comments apropos the royal wedding when I was merely trying to counter a rather sour remark from a fellow blogger.I will append the exchange in full to enable you to make up your own mind.


117. At 8:55pm on 16 Nov 2010, pdavies65 wrote:
Bryhers @ 115
"Do you really think so? The brand isn't what it was. I wonder if the event might fall a bit flat, like an act coming on for a curtain call just as the applause is dying away. Although I dare say there will be plenty of public goodwill towards them. And personally, I'll probably take the day off."

I really do! There is a need for a post imperial succession to mirror the IKEA generation.We shall soon all be broke and a monarchy modelled on flatpack will fit nicely into our hopes and expectations.

Charles and Camilla could be put aside in a coup as too grand in a night of the long queue at the takaway.The happy young couple then crowned in an underwater ceremony at the local Butlins at which Christians,Hindus,muslims,druids and spiritualists could officiate.

It would revive the brand as you call it.We like the more dignified title of the firm.

I wonder whether the attempt by AIB to give some subordinated debt holders a haircut on their bonds in late October may not have had something to do with this.

If this was deliberate then this would be their own fault for bringing their guarantee into question for other bondholders in other banks and government stock.

Markets do so hate uncertainty.

Johnharris66 84

Your assertion that sovereign debt is a stage two of a capitalist crisis is interesting, worthy of discussion, and will no doubt occupy intellectuals, of all political persuasions, for many happy hours to come.

-------------------------------------------------

No it is not John, and I am surprised you are saying this, it goes against every post you have written before. Post 82 is pure fantasy as many of his tend to be. However what surprises me most is that you did not recognise this.

When did George Osborne decide to get involved with the Republic of Ireland's attack from global Bond managers?

The Conservative Chancellor is slashing and burning in England, yet feels compelled to to be involved in a country in the Euro zone.

Very curious, very dubious and extremely unethical?

Are there lies we have yet hear from George Osborne?

85. At 5:37pm on 17 Nov 2010, FairandTrue wrote:
#81

What bit of "we do contribute to an EU crisis "mechanism" - signed up to by Alistair Darling in those five days in May after the election." don't you understand?
=================================

Which bit of 'just say NO' do you not understand?

Irish financial institutions are competitors to London based firms. They have done very nicely out of attractive tax rules and Ireland did very nicely whilst they were pumping out the profits.

Once the irish banks have their chickens come home to roost, why should I be paying my wages in tax so your government can ship it out to our competitors? Bad enough that I am, by Vince Cables analysis, providing free insurance for the risk taking of british bankers. Free insurance for the risk of competitor countries banks is too much of joke even for bertie wooster.

(Where's gordo? I admit that's a mystery. Is he concealed in downing street, still giving the orders, judging by the way he is apparently still responsible for every decision made by the tory government?)

Absolutely fascinating crisis. Not in an enjoyable way of course. What amazes me the most is how fundamental change or more importantly the discussion of fundamental change in the markets/financial sector is off the mainstream media radar. Whats also clear is
1. The cost of these bailouts and maintaining a status quo.
2. Bankers bonuses remain higher than ever and are increasing while thousands in junior banking roles have been made redundant.
3. To my knowledge no individual or financial organisation has been perused or punished in a manner that will effect them like it has/will millions of ordinary workers.
4. Banks have balanced their books and made large profits by increasing bank charges. This has severely affected the low paid and most vulnerable in society. Those who had no involvement in the crisis and who can least afford it.
5. The current tory led govt is funded and voted for by a minority group of individuals and businesses who own the vast majority of wealth.
6. This same govt is implementing cuts and policies that will affect those on lowest incomes disproportionately.
7. The current form of capitalism is not only environmentally disastrous but is proving to be dysfunctional and detrimental to the vast majority of the population. Except of course the very wealthy of which the vast majority vote conservative.
8. George Osborne,the entire conservative cabinet and all of their donors will be least effected by cuts and by any decision George Osborne may have to make in regard Ireland.
9. The current system of capitalism, and the financial sector will be repaired at all costs by this govt under a guise of the benefit for all of us when in reality it is clear it has not been beneficial to millions. And the worst is yet to be played out.
10. The current royal wedding is merely a distraction. Because I don’t know the couple personally I have 0 interest in it. But I do understand the money it will all cost, the time the media will disproportionately spend on it and how the royals became so wealthy in the first place.
11. John redwood quoted by nick, should not be listened to as pre-crisis he produced an economic paper praised by Osborne in which many of the issues that caused the original banking crisis in the first place were commended by him.

#88 Susan-Croft

I didn't say I agreed with the phrase (second phase of a capitalist crisis), but I find it interesting nonetheless.

Is there a crisis? If so, is it correct to call it a capitalist crisis? Do we live in a capitalist system?

Second phase of a banking crisis?

A UK/US banking crisis?

A euroland crisis?

A crisis of Western fiscal and monetary policy?

A crisis of global trade imbalances?

Fair and true 81:

I think you have misunderstood Mr.Osborne`s mission.Mr.Darling signed up to the EU stabilization fund, upon which we may be called to contribute if Ireland accepts German terms for a bail-out.

But the chancellor was offering a direct bilateral loan, which will not prop up the Euro except indirectly by preventing a sovereign default.

You may find it paradoxical that a government so opposed to government indebtedned here is incurring it abroad.There are economic reasons, but whisper it because the fools are listening.

78. At 4:40pm on 17 Nov 2010, jon112dk wrote:
=========================================================================
Not me I am afraid, I was and still am against the banks bail out. I am also against the Euro and our joining it and to be honest what we get out of being in the EU club it's not worth the bother.

What I did say is that Labour bailed out the banks and as the Irish are responsible for their own mess so you can't blame anyone in the UK especially the Tories.

Should we bail the Irish out, no! They are part of the EU and Euro so it should be them who stump up. The only reason I think that the goverment is offering is because they are our neighbours and we do a lot of trade with them so their collapse would hurt us also they may feel a moral duty to do the rite thing, which is where I can get sucked in because I do feel that we need to have good morals

88. At 6:14pm on 17 Nov 2010, Susan-Croft wrote:
Johnharris66 84

"Your assertion that sovereign debt is a stage two of a capitalist crisis is interesting, worthy of discussion, and will no doubt occupy intellectuals, of all political persuasions, for many happy hours to come.

-------------------------------------------------

No it is not John, and I am surprised you are saying this, it goes against every post you have written before. Post 82 is pure fantasy as many of his tend to be. However what surprises me most is that you did not recognise this."

If you had read the post to which JH was responding you would see he was tongue in cheek.You must recognize irony Susan,people play with ideas,we are not giving the Sermon in the Mount.

Surely it's better to help Ireland's economy, which we have significant links with, rather than help the Euro - which at the present must be classified as less important. Couldn't it be argued that until a stable economy is established in Britain we shouldn't concentrate on the Euro. Cameron, i agree with many of these comments, is being realistic and is doing what has to be done.

A legal requirement forcing public bodies to try to reduce inequalities caused by class disadvantage will be scrapped, the home secretary announced today.

The tory jigsaw puzzle coming together nicely.

62. At 3:20pm on 17 Nov 2010, Susan-Croft wrote:
Fubar 53

Do you really agree with post 34 I am surprised. Why???

Interesting in the light of your comment to JH;You seem to be searching for some kind of orthodoxy among posters? Perhaps you will explain why you expect others to agree with you?, when you never really engage in debate but make dogmatic assertions often unsupported by evidence.These are features of an authoritarian personality, so perhaps you would be happier in a more constricted environment like North Korea?

john harris @ 93

"Is there a crisis? If so, is it correct to call it a capitalist crisis? Do we live in a capitalist system?"

Let's ask Meg Ryan.

Yes ... oh yes yes ... oh yes yes YES!

Think I agree with her analysis.