The real debate has scarcely begun

Gordon Brown's ham-fisted letter added layers of anger and insult over the existing grief of a mother for her dead son. His incredible telephone conversation took the insult and outrage to a whole new level.

You don't phone the mother of a serviceman, killed whilst carrying out orders of the Executive Office, and end up having an argument with them as to whether or not they were reading your handwriting properly.

He has a total lack of respect and compassion - even more remarkable given his personal circumstances as a father - and exposes him as a man who quite simply should not be in this most important of jobs.

I suppose that pity is worth a try Nick - is this the last roll of the dice?

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OK. Your post has made me feel some sympathy for Gordon Brown and it has put both sides of the argument. But I still think that prompt withdrawal, relying on Karzi and Abdullah's "Government of unity" to succeed once it is given a bit of space from the Western intervention coupled with that "Fortress Britain" policy is the only realistic strategy at the moment.

Often with Gordon Brown it's been one of irritation or anger at his unwillingness to answer straight questions. On this occasion though the mood was more sympathetic.

Most rational and objective observers would feel sympathetic.

Seeing the Sun dancing on the grave of this dead soldier for political gain is nauseating but not, alas, surprising.

At the news conference today Brown again denied there were any spelling mistakes in his condolence letter. It seems that his assistants are too scared to point out to him where he goes wrong.

I am quite happy to criticise Brown for all sorts of things but this letter writing business has been blown out of all proportion - for sure it may have caused hurt to the grieving familiy and I am sure Brown regrets that deeply but the letter writing was well meant even if it went pear shaped.

This one is a non story.

Brown stuffed up a personal letter, big whoop. He made the effort to write one, couldn't give a fig if he made a few mistakes.

The lady concerned is understandably upset, but the letter is nothing more than something for her to focus her anger on. She should be angry about the circumstances behind her son's death, not the fact that a busy man who took the trouble to write made a mistake.

Nick, the debate hasn't begun because that isn't what Labour do... they shut down debate, they stifle it with that well-worn cliche 'it was the right thing to do'. When that fails, the PM has a team of people beavering in his bunker who's job is to compile nonsense statistics, astroturf message boards and smear opposition MPs.

The contempt Labour show for the public's views is all the explanation you need as to why we are eight years into a war, we appear to be losing, with no clear objective in sight. We need an election, we need a new government and a new PM before we can start to put things right.

Ugh, what a mess.

Originally I felt sorry for Brown, his poor eyesight being the reason the letter was badly written in the first place.

Then the phone call. And we yet again got to see a man incapable of admitting fault or accepting blame, someone who squirms under the spotlight of responsibility.

As for the troops equipment, again, a problem of his own making. Instead of petulantly refusing to find "Blair's wars" he should have considered the fact that, when he had his way, he'd be left holding the bag.

And then we have the Sun, displaying why it's such an odious paper.

Brown may be, at heart, a decent man, but in any era, especially the modern one, he's a terrible leader. He needs to go soon, he's already sullied his legacy and the longer he remains PM, the worse he's going to look, both now and in the history books of the future.

It seems to me that Gordon Brown’s problem in this instance is that after 15 or so years of spin, absolute refusal to acknowledge fault and generally not answering questions, when he tries to do the right thing (and sending a handwritten letter was the right thing to do) and he makes a few mistakes due to time-pressures or eyesight, that he perceives acknowledgement of those errors as a weakness that should not be admitted.

Of course when this refusal to admit his mistakes is discovered then his attempt to do the right thing is drowned out by the avalanche of people wanting revenge for his previous unacknowledged mistakes.

Jacqui only wanted an apology for the bad spelling. Gordon did not apologise. Instead he got into an argument with a grieving mother. Who pointed out that:

- The Treasury have been a hindrance

- That there are not sufficient helicopters for casualties

- That soldiers have to buy their own kit

- That Gordon has the political will to financially support the banks, but not the troops.

"Many journalists know first-hand that Gordon Brown has poor eyesight and poor handwriting and feel that his staff should have checked this letter and prevented it from being sent."

- Are you blaming the staff who he has chosen to work for him?

- Anybody else who has sight problems wears spectacles. If he cannot see properly to spell correctly, how does he read anything when he refers to notes, and how does he read other important documents (Lisbon Treaty).

- Poor handwriting and spelling are not the result of his eyesight problems, but rather the lack of care in writing the letter.

- Why did he phone up the lady only to spend time arguing with her? The phone call did not appear to offer any sincere apology, but rather a demonstration of how he thought that everything he does should be above question.

The only good thing to come out of this sad affair is that no other grieving wife mother father daughter or anyone else will have to suffer the pain of receiving a letter wrongly named or casually written by the PM.

If nothing else focus will now be put on Downing Street to ensure all correspondence sent on behalf of the PM is checked and vetted. I'm also sure that Mrs Brown will also check anything personal that her husband sends out.

As far as the war in Afghanistan is concerned we have a big voice so we are told who can negotiate the way out of all our problems.

I would suggest that Tony Blair who instigated this war with Bush in the first place should be given the job of negotiating the way out in Afghanistan. This would be his greatest political challenge.

Even so, I still support the troops remaining in Afghanistan.

Anti-Brown sentiment has now coagulated into a campaign that is showing more and more of the hallmarks of a witch-hunt. The campaign is led by an Australian-American but joined by many, including on most occasions the opposition front bench.

What does it tell you about the new depths being plumbed here when even the opportunistic Tories find it too distasteful to join in?

Gordon Brown is a weak, vascillating Prime Minister who has had the misfortune to obtain high office 5 years after Tony Blair had enacted all of the his ideas. He is not an inhuman monster trampling on the graves of the soldiers whom he has sent to their deaths. Unlike some I could mention.

ReardenSteel, I agree that we need a new PM. Did you have anyone in mind?

Someone should put him out of our misery and tell him to go. Alternatively as he is clearly suffering from S.A.D. I prescribe a break in the sun (and from the Sun!) for about 9 months.

1 West London willy
Your letter if filled with the usual hate that we associate with you. The letter was written by hand by the PM confirming his heartfelt sorrow as we all feel for this lad, he made a mistake with the name, since it was the same name that had been read out before parliament it was hardly surprising, a very simple mistake that I am quite sure that the familly have experienced many times, it would be interesting to know whether the name James instead of Janes was also read out by DC and NC, in parliament Especially since he was Jamie Janes,I personally have a Y in my surname and many many times even with sensitive issues had it replaced with a i. GB doesn't know the boy personally no more than he knew any of the lads that have so tradgically died in this conflict, the names of all these lads were put in front of him to write to their parents, many have been very pleased with this.I have to wonder if this mother would have been so outraged had the Sun not have got involved with their new found vitriolic attitude to GB, I personally have the greatest respect for the lad that was killed but I do wonder sometimes whether some parents sadly use this for political gain, and whether the actions of some of the parents would be approved of by their brave sons.

Apart from the debate about Afghanistan, there is also a debate about just how badly Brown has to continue screwing everything up before the other Labour MPs grow a collective pair and get rid of him and maybe give Labour some chance of not being completely wiped out at the next election.

I have no doubt that Browm believes himself a caring and genuine human being capable of sympathy and empathy. I think it is a shame that this particular issue has had such a high profile. No one benefits from this. Perhaps the emotive situation around it amplifies his social ineptitude that is all too apparent. I do not believe for one moment that he was intentionally disrespectful. I sometimes wonder what the people on this site want to see. Do you want to see the PM fall to his knees and beg forgiveness? Sure, that would give us all a great deal of satisfaction but it is never going to happen. Those of us who are not the PM can quite easily admit our mistakes, say sorry and the world will think no less of us. For Browm, this would be the end of his premiership and his party's future aspirations. It just ain't gonna happen.

ANOTHER Bias Corp apology for the Clown - WHAT has the UK been reduced to when the PM phones a mother and argues with her- GOD help us all, but the UK first and foremost, as it has been reduced to nothing, financially and morally, by this alleged son of the manse.

WORDS FAIL ME - but not the apologist Robinson and the Bias Corp - whom WE employ.

Which one are we to feel sympathy for?

The generous, caring, 'shy' family man one
or temperamental, foul-mouthed, scheming, ruthless one?

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Commendable though his writing to every family personally is, the obvious slapdash and hurried way it appears to have been done, makes one wonder how sincere the letter writing actually is. Is it, as it appears just another exercise in political diplomacy aimed at image building, an attempt to show the "caring face" of a man who I suspect couldn't really care for anything but the furtherance of his own ends? Perhaps he should now allow the bereaved famillies to grieve in peace, without any , possibly insincere interference from Downing Street. The Sun also should keep it's nose out of the affairs of the bereaved, although they, to be fair were dragged into it , they should have refrained from using the woman's grief for financial or political gain.

Sympathy for Gordon Brown? Look at his voting record. I've got no sympathy for Gordon Brown.

Incidently is it me or is it strange that the Sun just happened to have a copy of the phone message, or heaven forbid the could have been any collusion between mum and the sun. But then I am a old cynic!,

"Are you blaming the staff who he has chosen to work for him?

- Anybody else who has sight problems wears spectacles. If he cannot see properly to spell correctly, how does he read anything when he refers to notes, and how does he read other important documents (Lisbon Treaty).

- Poor handwriting and spelling are not the result of his eyesight problems, but rather the lack of care in writing the letter.

- Why did he phone up the lady only to spend time arguing with her? The phone call did not appear to offer any sincere apology, but rather a demonstration of how he thought that everything he does should be above question.
"

What an ignorant buffoon you really are:

1: When you have 10% vision, in one eye, I assure you, reading glasses aren't much help. I know, as I have the same.

2: Unless you have 10% vision, I'd suggest your points are completely without source. Just like deaf people struggle to speak coherently, as they can't "self check" their work, blind people very much struggle with handwriting.

You're obviously no intellect, but I assure, even you proof read every single letter you write, as you write it. And the only reason it makes it on to a page is the basis that your brain has OK'd what you have written micro seconds after you have started to write.

When this hand eye coordination does not exist, problems occur. You may as well be claiming "being deaf doesn't affect your ability to speak. They are just thick"

3: How stupid are you. The recording was obviously a Sun plant. And they were feeding her lines to try and get into an argument

What, I'm supposed to have pity or sympathy? The irony of this and the phonecall on the day that they want to record everything from everyone. Just remember Gordon, nothing to hide nothing to fear, right?

From Nick's blog: What must follow now - at least once President Obama unveils his plan - is a debate about whether there is another strategy which would more effectively safeguard Britain.

Gordon Brown made clear that he'd looked at and rejected the option of bringing the troops home and creating "Fortress Britain" with money saved.

*******************************

Nick. Why should a strategy to safeguard Britain have to wait until Obama has made up his mind? Surely the safety of the UK is a matter for our Government and any strategy is their decision alone.

What is wrong with the idea of bringing our troops home and creating 'Fortress Britain?' Nothing accept that it would clash horribly with Labours open door policy on immigration.
Many of those who would wish us harm are probably already in the UK, albeit unknown to the authorities at present. Even if known and identified, it would seem almost impossible to get rid of them anyway.

Only a total rethink on both Security and Immigration policy are going to bring any thing like a solution to this dilemna.

A possible thoughtless mistake compunded by poor eyesights and possible tireness is forgiveable. In the greater scheme of our involvement in Afganistan and Iraq, GB is but a strawman.

We should have constitutions like Japan, Germany and Switzerland forbidding sending armed forces overseas.

3#

That post was a bit too close to the knuckle, was it Nicholas???

Figured as much.

Until Mr Brown can describe what victory in afghanistan even looks like, I can't see public support increasing. - We just don't know what we're supposed to be trying to achieve.

Lesson for the sun, though, even a politician as generally despised as Mr Brown can garner public sympathy if you strike a low enough blow.

And exploiting a bereaved mother's grief?

Thats about as low as you can get, i note the oppsition leaders have run a mile to avoid being associated with the Sun's actions.

I wonder how the armed forces feel about the self proclaimed 'paper of the forces' now?

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All attempts to rescue this blundering idiot of a prime minister are doomed to failure - particularly those best efforts conjured up by himself.

As Gordon Brown has spent a lifetime holding the British people in utter contempt, it is clear that now when he needs them he will have little idea how to enlist their support.

The 'sympathy vote' goes to those who don't court it, not to those who sahmelessly pursue it like this man.

Child poverty, family tragedies, depth of his personal despair, his wife having to present him at a newlabour conference (twice), his relentless courting of 'hard working families (while taxing them to the hilt); you name it, he has tried every low trick in the political book.

His entire political life has been agenda and ideology driven rather than getting toi the heart of the matter and sorting it out. Focus groups, opinion polls, reviews, smears, attack dogs, have all been tried and now they all point in the opposite direction. The country wants to be rid of this disingenuous politician's politician.

He stands for nothing but himself.

The country is bigger than this.

Call an election.

19#

Considering their family have had 5 generations of infantrymen GA, I think the family are probably better qualified to answer that than you are.

Or would your outrage be somewhat dimmed if it wasnt for the Sun giving Brown a kicking about it?

Had it been anyone else but Brown, you'd have been tearing him a fresh one.

Your lot were warned that it wasnt wise to make an enemy of Murdoch, but you didnt listen. You thought you were invincible and that you didnt need him and his tacit support any more, after playing the media for the last 10 years.

Reap the whirlwind, baby. You get what you give.

I've read the transcript of the telephone conversation, and GB does say sorry quite a few times. I think its now time to move on.

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5#

And you're not using it yourself for a quick soft shoe shuffle to get Gordon off the hook?


Yuk.

Did he not stop to think that with Ms Janes already linked with The Sun the telephone conversation would be taped.
Seems to me he is only worried about how things look rather than have genuine feelings for the young soldier
He just seems to blunder from one disaster to another

"Jacqui only wanted an apology for the bad spelling. Gordon did not apologise. Instead he got into an argument with a grieving mother. Who pointed out that:

- The Treasury have been a hindrance

- That there are not sufficient helicopters for casualties

- That soldiers have to buy their own kit

- That Gordon has the political will to financially support the banks, but not the troops.
"

The problem is, intelligent people get cynical, when these questions are handed to the mother by The Sun newspaper no doubts.

Nick wrote:

"Dressed in a dark suit and sombre tie, his voice deeper and more gravelly than usual - suggesting he'd had even less sleep than usual ..."

All leaders and managers need to get their work/leisure balance right, so as to be able to do their jobs to a sufficiently high standard to the benefit of their respective organizations. Brown does not delegate enough, and thinks that appearing to work 24/7 will improve hus chances with the electorate. It may do, but with insufficient rest he will make mistakes.

Over the last week, he did not need to campaign in Glasgow NE, nor go to St Andrews for the G20 finance Ministers meeting - spent the weekend working and travelling. Other G20 leaders were not present in Fife. He then had to travel to Berlin, for the anniversary of the Wall plus a dinner and reception last night. Back in the UK this morning for Press Conference, so when did he travel back? Did no one think of postponing the Press Conference to this afternoon?

He does have to delegate more and trust in those he delegeates in. These are key managerial skills. What is the point in having a Cabinet, if Brown pops up to make most of their announcements? The mis-spelt letter and subsequent furore is a bye-product of trying to do too much all by himself - we are barely one month back from very long summer holidays and he looks knackered.

23 The Blame Game
#The generous, caring, 'shy' family man one.GB.

#or temperamental, foul-mouthed, scheming, ruthless one?
The editor and owner of The Sun Newspaper, well known in Liverpool for their sensitivity.

ANOTHER Bias Corp apology for the Clown - WHAT has the UK been reduced to when the PM phones a mother and argues with her- GOD help us all, but the UK first and foremost, as it has been reduced to nothing, financially and morally, by this alleged son of the manse.

WORDS FAIL ME - but not the apologist Robinson and the Bias Corp - whom WE employ"

Ron Reagan

There is an excellent book about the mindset of right wing voters in the states.

Stating that there desire for total control not only dominates there lives but their political allegiances.

it's why you immerse yourself in Guido Fawkes, and The Daily Mail. One very biased opinion on subjects.

When these people are offered a media service that shows many points of view, they lose this control, and in general claim conspiracy.

It's why people like you actually think The Daily Mail is telling the truth, and that the BBC, in offering all points of view is in some way biased

Mrs Janes is a sadly bereaved and properly aggrieved mother of a very brave young soldier.
She is deserving all sympathy and respect for the tragic loss of her son.
I do offer my most sincere condolences.

That said, I do wonder at a mother in such grievous circumstances having the foresight and impetus to plan and record a private conversation with PM Brown?

That is not to belittle her understandable outrage at a very unfortunate letter; nor is it to question her motivation in making the private letter from Mr Brown available to the public.

However, recording a telephone conversation specifically with the purtpose of adding to the story seems to me uncalled for and actually a disservice to the memory of her son.

ReardenSteel wrote:
"The contempt Labour show for the public's views is all the explanation you need as to why we are eight years into a war, we appear to be losing, with no clear objective in sight. We need an election, we need a new government and a new PM before we can start to put things right."


Oh yes, we really do need a change of government.
Just remember, the Conservatives supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, even after the public made their wishes known in several demonstrations that culminated in the single largest anti-war demonstration this country has ever seen.
Even after all of that outpouring of public sentiment, and eight years of continued warfare, the Conservatives are still supporting the war in Afghanistan and are in absolute agreement with the Labour party over the future of the war.

Many journalists know first-hand that Gordon Brown has poor eyesight and poor handwriting and feel that his staff should have checked this letter and prevented it from being sent."

- Are you blaming the staff who he has chosen to work for him?

- Anybody else who has sight problems wears spectacles. If he cannot see properly to spell correctly, how does he read anything when he refers to notes, and how does he read other important documents (Lisbon Treaty).

- Poor handwriting and spelling are not the result of his eyesight problems, but rather the lack of care in writing the letter.

- Why did he phone up the lady only to spend time arguing with her? The phone call did not appear to offer any sincere apology, but rather a demonstration of how he thought that everything he does should be above question.


What an ignorant poster you really are. Really a testament to the question:

”Who actually believes Sun articles”

1: Ignorance. People who base facts on next to no research or knowledged.

2: Nobody proofs Browns messages. That’s the issue. They are written and posted from his private mail. As in, he does it all. Why? To give families the feeling that he is not shirking around the job, and getting lackies to do it.

3: I suggest you are writing from the perspective of someone that has 90% vision or more. From someone with 30% vision, I’d suggest you have no idea what you are talking about.

Deaf people struggle to speak English, as they can’t properly hear what they are saying. It’s cognitive. If you can’t properly check what you are doing, be it speech, or writing, long term, you struggle to develop it.

You may as well be calling deaf people “thick” as they can’t pronounce words properly

4: He quite obviously recognised that she was a Sun stooge, who had been handed a series of questions to grill him on, under the pretence of a private call.

Most of her claims including “he had made 25 spelling mistakes” were abject lies, intended to create an argument

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The letter is overdone. The point about her son dying because there was a lack of medivac helicopters to get him out of there before he bled to death is heartrending. It is also an issue for which Brown must be responsible. When our troops were in the much less danagerous environment of South Armagh they went everywhere by helicopter. In Afghanistan they go by unarmoured jeeps. They lacked body armour for years before public upset forced this Government to move. The lies told by ministers who "hoped a shot would not be fired in anger" and the pretence that this was some sort of low grade police action barely worth talking about has got us and Brown where we are today. We are at war and our finest are dying. We either fight this war seriously or we get out. Guardsman Janes paid the penalty of trying to have it both ways. Enough.

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Willy 1

"He has a total lack of respect and compassion"

No Willy, in common with many posters, I think you will find that your insults of others describe yourself.

34. At 2:31pm on 10 Nov 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Ah, the paid stooge Naylor again, two days in a row.

Must be an inferno blowing through the bunker.

Stand by for about 15 posts in 20 minutes. The blogging equivalent of Andrews Liver Salts.

-----------

I seriously doubt any of the parties pay anyone to argue on this board, we're simply not important.

And judging by the relatively small number of regular contribitutors i suspect the the total number of visitors to these threads is tiny, far less than on the main HYS topics.

The man's name was James Janes. Is it really a big deal if someone has mistakenly got the M and N wrong?

In my handwriting, the Ms and Ns are pretty similar anyway. So I'll be sure to not write to this woman in case I end up on the wrong end of a tabloid backlash.

How many of us can honestly say we've never had our name spelt wrongly by someone?

I'm just thankful that we live in an age where so few people die in wars that our prime minister has time to write to all the families.

"People's reaction to this story will, in large part, be determined by their pre-existing attitude to Gordon Brown"

I disagree with this statement. As a rule, I feel Gordon Brown is a bit of a joke.

However, In this case I can't see that Brown has done anything but the right thing.

He hand writes to every family who suffer a loss and obviously takes the time to make each letter personal. I don't believe he can blame his disability for his poor spelling, that's all him, but at least he has made the effort.

What he needs to make sure he does in the future is have all of these letters proofed before sending them out.

However, hopefully he won't have too much of a future in politics so we will see the back of these kinds of mistakes pretty soon.

I don't think our military should be anywhere near Afghanistan, I think Gordon Brown or at least his staff should check what he sends out and I have the greatest of sympathies for the family of Guardsman Janes.

The Sun, however, has illustrated once again that it's prepared to go to any depths when it wants a story. With it being the most widely read newspaper in the UK, is it no surprise that there is a morality crisis in the UK?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"All attempts to rescue this blundering idiot of a prime minister are doomed to failure - particularly those best efforts conjured up by himself.

As Gordon Brown has spent a lifetime holding the British people in utter contempt, it is clear that now when he needs them he will have little idea how to enlist their support.

The 'sympathy vote' goes to those who don't court it, not to those who sahmelessly pursue it like this man.

Child poverty, family tragedies, depth of his personal despair, his wife having to present him at a newlabour conference (twice), his relentless courting of 'hard working families (while taxing them to the hilt); you name it, he has tried every low trick in the political book.

His entire political life has been agenda and ideology driven rather than getting toi the heart of the matter and sorting it out. Focus groups, opinion polls, reviews, smears, attack dogs, have all been tried and now they all point in the opposite direction. The country wants to be rid of this disingenuous politician's politician.

He stands for nothing but himself.

The country is bigger than this.

Call an election."


This is such a vast Sun gaff as it reveals that a lot of right wing comment is just agenda driven rubbish.

They campaign about handwriting with the same disgust as they do spending and tax.

Irony it seems hasn't reached you yet.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The real issue is, whenever anybody reads a Sun attack on Brown, on the war, they will now think:

"Oh, they are after him again. Yawn".

Browns greatest weapon against Cameron could well be this trashy newspaper.

I had a real laugh at Fubar Saunders desc of Mike Naylor and Andrews Liver Salts - brilliant Fubar. U r right, the bunker is spewing out its usual bile, and the Bias Corp comply - who cares, the Clown has used the Sun for 12 years - what goes around comes around - roll on 2010 and oblivion for NULIEBOUR.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"Misread the public, Naylor? What because you and the rest of your paid intern stooges are out there hammering every single MSM board going with your phantom logins, astroturfing for all you're worth trying to draw some of the heat away from Brown?

You're a stooge Naylor. No better than a member of the Vichy. Whatever Charlie's paying you, I hope you choke on it.
"



Fubar

I have read the Guido Fawkes campaign to smear liberal message board users numerous times.

it's a concerted effort by tory bloggers to attack and control message boards for their own party.

I'd suggest that you are very much part of this blogging campaign

Respectfully, I believe the debate should be on a number of levels. With regards to the handwritten letter by Gordon Brown, the Sun is very clearly using a grieving mother as a pawn, the Sun’s motives and actions of playing mind games with a grieving mother has more to do with their financially driven anti Europe stance than the war in Afghanistan.

The Sun’s attempts at debating the real issues of a war, when they were last supporting the tories, were the headlines:

“Stick it up your junta” when it seemed a compromise, solution may be found to the Falklands war,
“Gotcha” to describe the possible loss of up to 1,200 Argentinean servicemen’s lives with the sinking of the Belgrano
And
“England 6 Argentina 0”

Mrs. Janes has my sincere condolences, but would a letter checked by the lawyers, typed by a secretary and merely signed by the prime minister be better received by those who have lost a loved one, I wouldn’t think so. In fact I honestly believe David Cameron would go up in a lot of people’s estimation if he condemned and distanced himself from such actions by the Sun.

On a fairly small point of detail I understand Gordon Brown has promised a report onto the issue as whether more helicopters may have prevented the death of guardsman Janes rather that merely putting Mrs. Janes’s view down to grief.

With regards to the “Real Debate starting” I would very much welcome detailed reporting and debate of the main issues with regards to the war in Afghanistan in order to come to an opinion. Unfortunately as with virtually all reporting these days the only reporting we get is sound bites, the reporters or interviewers views and persona, or point scoring rather than detailed quality reporting of issues. The BBC is at fault as much as everyone else on this last issue.

36 fubar saunders
You do foolishly jump in with both feet don't you,
#Considering their family have had 5 generations of infantrymen GA, I think the family are probably better qualified to answer that than you are.
Since the family have had five generations of infantrymen I think that a lady with that background would have had a better sense of decorum that to get involved with the odius Sun.

# Or would your outrage be somewhat dimmed if it wasnt for the Sun giving Brown a kicking about it?

Once again I have to remind you I don't do outrage.

#Had it been anyone else but Brown, you'd have been tearing him a fresh one.

This statement once again conveys to me what little understanding you have of the way I think, do you think that no PM or anyone else has ever made a mistake before, for goodness sake grow up man.
The rest of your post is the usual drivel.

"Misread the public, Naylor? What because you and the rest of your paid intern stooges are out there hammering every single MSM board going with your phantom logins, astroturfing for all you're worth trying to draw some of the heat away from Brown?

You're a stooge Naylor. No better than a member of the Vichy. Whatever Charlie's paying you, I hope you choke on it."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


The tory blogging community, who this week started a concerted campaign to smear liberl comments, by claiming it's some sort of Labour "conspiracy" complaining about political stooges.

The irony.

The fact that I don't agree with you, is just that. I'm an Independent reading realist. Not a Mail reading, tory blogger, who thinks the world is against me

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#48 Fubar_Saunders

I'm fascinated by your posts, they're so irrational, although I think this is by miles.... hysterical, neurotic, paranoid. Wow, you must be have a really bad life - I picture you living in some really horrible cave somewhere with only a computer for company.

Thanks, please keep them coming, they're great fun even though they're totally unhinged.

"I seriously doubt any of the parties pay anyone to argue on this board, we're simply not important.

And judging by the relatively small number of regular contribitutors i suspect the the total number of visitors to these threads is tiny, far less than on the main HYS topics."

It's a concerted tactic to label liberal commenters as "stooges". Dreamed up by tory bloggers.

I was on Guido Fawkes only this morning reading various plots on the subject

I have a certain sympathy for Gordon Brown over all this. He has been badly let down by the staff at Downing Street who should have checked the letter before it went, especially as the subject matter was so intensely sensitive.
I feel for the man as well because the Sun will be relentless in their hounding of him. Putting him on vegetables, pointing out every small error and blowing it up beyond all reasonable proportion. This is what the media in this country has been reduced to.
I will be voting Tory at the election, but this does not mean that I think that a politician who pens personal letters of condolence to every dead soldier's family is deliberately trying to court public sympathy by doing so, or who doesn't care about the soldiers his government have sent to their deaths. He must do, or he wouldn't bother. I would expect Obama to do it so, in my eyes, that he even bothers is a plus point.
Making a huge fuss out of someone's physical difficulties is crass and shows The Sun up for what it is - vindictive and ruthless.
I don't think Labour are a good government. We are now in a worse position than we were in 1997 and I think the Tories could do it better but let's keep the arguments to policy rather than sensationalism, eh? We don't elect the person, we elect the party. Lets criticise the party for being useless. if they thought GB was rubbish then they should assign him a decent PA to proof read his correspondence.

Nick, you know and I know, the BBC got this spectacularly wrong because the story of the letter to a grieving mother has not added to the debate, rather it has detracted from it and those who are against our involvement in Afghanistan must be very frustrated that the momentum has been taken away from this debate which may well bring home soldiers safely and instead has seen a grieving mother and a dead soldier exploited by the gutter press. This is all very tawdry and I see that you are distancing yourself from it without wishing to embrass your employer too much.

I feel very strongly that this highly sensitive issue is a private matter between the Prime Minister and Mrs Janes. The letter was private as was the subsequent phone call. The Sun is using this poor family for their own political agenda and I feel that this is wrong.

I am by no means a fan of GB in fact i detest the chap and his partry, but on this occasion this whole episode is rather ridiculous, i find it rather fishy that the Sun has got hold of this non story and turned it into a futile witch hunt and if this women was upset by what i see as a genuine mistake ... Why would she go to the Sun newspaper ?

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'Stand by for about 15 posts in 20 minutes.'
9!

It is a real shame when the PM does something in good faith only for it to backfire the way it did. It is clear though that the mother was being used by the Sun in order for them to continue this constant and relentless attack on him. It does not remove from the fact that he should not have argued his corner the way he did, he should have seen this coming. I for one , would prefer the troops to come home, the stories created by Blair were just that, stories. Our troops are now seen as an occupying force by most Afghans, the goalposts as to why we're really there have shifted so much, they're lost. The PM is completely blind to the damage being done to the Labour party, and to top it all, we now have an odious, long discredited 'comic' that thinks itself a serious newspaper now setting the agenda. This mother should understand that the SUN simply has no ones interests at heart, they never have, They are out for profit and influence and nothing else. GB has indeed made an error that will be seized upon by those who wish to damage him further. We have far more pressing things to deal with here, like noses in the trough, lining their pockets at the tax payers expense, law and order, social issues and all things which make a society function, fighting wars in other countries on the back of dodgy claims made by an even more dodgy individual for me are way down the pecking order. I also think that Kim Howells is right, time to rethink the strategy about how we can protect ourselves from this form of terrorism without becoming Fortress Britain. We need to move forward from this, leave the mother to her grief and leave that scheming little rag, where it rightfully belongs...in a trash can somewhere.

I enjoy Gordon Brown bashing as much as the next man, but i'm very uneasy about laying into him over this letter. You know at least he bothered to write and clearly he wanted to make it personal by handwriting the letter - however imperfect it was.

As far as the soldier's Mother is concerned, she is understandably hurting very badly and i'm guessing that nothing will console her for a very long time. I suspect that the incorrect spellings were the straw that broke the cammel's back in this case. She's angry and she believes, probably rightly so, that her son could have been saved with better resources.

The argument over lack of resources is no doubt valid, but on this occaision, please leave the man alone. It's not right.

Get McBride back quickly - where r my lies and smears when I need them. Was I Chacellor when Bliar need money for Iraq and Afgh???? - did I take Mandelson back??? - did I have a 10p tax???? - I DID abolish boom and bust did`nt I ??????? - anyway the grateful electorate of my dictatorship will reward me in 2010, wont they???????

"This, and other HYS, should read the MIKE NAYLOR SHOW - what rate of pay do ZanuLiebour offer for this constant stream of garbage???? - Mike takes the Sun award for the Dogsbody of the year, AFTER the Clown"

Do you honestly think I just let you smear me, without any concquences.

I'm reporting every comment you make on the subject.

I heard the story of the Gordon Brown letter this morning on the BBC World Service, and though I can empathize with the grieving mother, I was repulsed at the tackiness of recording one side of a conversation for the world to hear. The Sun has never been known for journalistic integrity, but this was just beyond tacky, its exploitive and repugnant, and if she was a willing instigator or collaborator, then shame on her, too.

ALL the apologists for Clown FORGET that this letter was about the DEATH of her son - HOW insensitive can u get in the hunt for sympathy - go on Clown, back to writing X Factor numpties and S Boyle et al.

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The Sun itself should take its share of the blame for the death of Mrs James's son.

The strategy of the Taliban is to inflict enough casualties on the British forces to persuade the British public to make its government withdraw its troops, as other NATO allies have already decided to do. The Taliban's own casualties are a price worth paying, because there are plenty of brothers and sons ready to take their places in the holy war against the invader.

As many forecast at the outset, and has now become obvious, the war in Helmand is not winnable. By beating the war drums so dishonestly, the Sun and some other newspapers have simply prolonged the war and are responsible for there being many more casualties.

The UK is cursed by a disgusting popular press. World War 1 might really have been "over by Christmas", if there had been frank reporting of what was happening at the front, instead of dishonest warmongering. The troops who played football in no man's land with the enemy, clearly understood how senseless the mutual slaughter had become.

48 fubar Saunders
There was a time when I used to read your posts and although I didn't agree with them, I thought they were usually reasonable and somtimes amusing ,in the nicest way.
Lately you have become quite manic and are becoming progresively more manic, for goodness sake take a pill and chill out.
No one on this blog doesn't have sympathy with the Lady for her loss but you also have to feel sympathy for her for being manipulated by the Sun which does her no credit,Sadly.

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Why is such a large section of the British public so sheeplike? We are constantly and it seems willingly told what to think by our media - particularly Rupert Murdoch - that man's wields more power than anyone in the UK. Who can curb him? He must 'laugh all the way to the Bank' at the stupidity of a large section of the British people too lazy/stupid to see through the bias reporting or to think for themselves. The media has it's own agenda and it's not what is best for Britain it is always 'creating a bigger story' I believe Gordon Brown is probably a decent honest guy who has made mistakes as human beings are prone to do. British Prime ministers are under more pressure because of our cynical and immoral media than any other leaders, it cannot possibly help us in times of trouble. Give the guy a break unless the intention is to force him into a breakdown? Why do the other world leaders hold him in such high esteem and followed his lead last year? Either they are stupid or we are? God help future Prime Ministers! He is the first Prime Minister to send handwritten notes to families of our men who have died serving their country. Even the great Maggie Thatcher was clearly too busy - previous PMs must have had a lot of urgent problems to deal with. I guess what this country now wants is a leader with style only - morals/honour don't count any longer - the press hate these boring guys and will not stand for it - so inevitably neither will we. I have brought my teenage sons up to think for themselves and they are astounded at times at the biased reporting they see/hear and wonder why adults accept it? Well so do I. Thankfully my sons don't show any inclination to joining the army but do fully support our lads who have taken the war to the enemy to protect us. I do wonder at this mothers motives at recording the phone conversation? I can appreciate her anger and grief must be terrible but perhaps we need to readdress what we expect from our army and why we pay them. Do the soldiers themselves expect to be involved in actual wars when they sign up?

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"Without directly referring to the death of his own baby daughter, he declared that "I'm a parent who understands the feelings when things go dreadfully wrong". "

well then, there are many parent (fathers) that have not seen there children for years under the family court system that he loves so much.

Can you Imagine what it would be like to Know that your children just live around the corner but the state prevent or fails to enforce your children's right to see thier own father, what that would be like.

There is no closure , no place to hide your hidden grief, you see protetsors being jailed and harrassed by the state for daring to stand up to the state on this issue, on your behalf. You see the BBC act on this issue in a biased manner , you phone BBC radio phone ins to try and get your issues across in a debate only for the BBC to prevent any airing of the issues involved , not just once but more than 50 times.

and he is the man that cut the helicopter budget when it was required to put the foot on the gas so to speak that lead to many avoidable deaths of many brave men and one or two women.

He has do feeling for other human beings he is just false

#Mike Naylor- it MAY surprise you but I voted Liebour last time - NEVER AGAIN and your rabid rantings and denials confirm that my judgement is correct.

#74 Fubar_Saunders

Fascinating, are you receiving treatment?

The letter writing itself has got out of hand yes its a huge mistake and his advisors should take some responsibility but The Sun's witch hunt is frankly demeaning to all parties involved. I can't wait to see the back of Brown but this is not the way and I hope Cameron refuses to comment and doesn't jump on the bandwagon.

What I have found most interesting about the episode is that the telephone conversation is one of those rare occasions where a passionate member of the public asks a politician questions directly. It happens so rarely in the sanitised press interviews and House of Commons. For the first time Brown was forced to actually to answer a question. It's just a shame that it was in these circumstances.

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#83 stanblogger

Great post.... I bet none of the Murdochs have written to the families of the war dead to say how sorry they are.

I'm sick of foreign neocon media magnates having such an influence on our country.

There's even a rumour that James Murdoch is suing the BBC.

69. At 3:16pm on 10 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"I seriously doubt any of the parties pay anyone to argue on this board, we're simply not important.

And judging by the relatively small number of regular contribitutors i suspect the the total number of visitors to these threads is tiny, far less than on the main HYS topics."

It's a concerted tactic to label liberal commenters as "stooges". Dreamed up by tory bloggers.

I was on Guido Fawkes only this morning reading various plots on the subject

---------------

Ah.i thought its that we want to believe that our comments are so devestating, precise and influential that the main political parties have to pay professionals to refute & rebutt them?

When the truth is its only ever just us reading and squabbling over them..

75. Poprishchin wrote:
'Stand by for about 15 posts in 20 minutes.'
9!

17 and counting... (Christmas coming up)



86. Mike_Naylor wrote:
"it's Gorbels-esque"

Is that Gorbals Mick or Joseph Goebbels?

This is another example of the PM's ineptitude. Any problem he has with physical difficulties and dealing with them are his responsibility, not ours. He should not let them impinge on his ability to perform in line with what is expected FROM THE OFFICE OF PM. What is even more worrying is if he cannot see sufficiently what he writes CAN HE SEE SUFFICIENTLY TO READ CORRECTLY that which is imperative to know and understand? Anything less is inept and irresponsible

The Sun is a sordid newspaper which up until a few weeks ago was supporting Gordon Brown. It has now changed sides because it wants to be on the winning side and claim it was the `Sun wot done it'. It no doubt feels it has a disloyalty defecit which requires attention.

We all know the government has made a mess of this war and that as usual in such circumstances the squaddie pays the price. I can hear my father now restless in his grave telling me once again of the comrades he lost becuase of inadequate, missing or non-existent equipment when we had to fight the Nazis.

But why does our politics have to be conducted at this gut-wrenchingly personal level. Gordon Brown did not set that IED: our enemy did and you can bet who is rejoicing over all this.

The entire episode makes me sick: we are at war for God's sake! Let's focus on getting the right equipment into theatre, the troop numbers in place to succeed, the innovations and processes established to deal with these mines.

Why doesn't Mr.Murdock put his money where his large mouth is and support the British soldier.

Agree with 72 and others who have expressed similar sentiments; Gordon Brown' s government has not managed a host of issue particularly well but he is human like the rest of us.