Government not defeated

it's only a matter of time.

Don't dare to be poor under a Labour Government.......

"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."

Depressed indeed but sadly not suicidal...

But any normal human being would be downright "ashamed" to call themselves an "MP", which goes way beyond being "depressed". After all it's we taxpayers who get depressed watching the criminal classes in the commons sit out another year of tax/expenses fiddles, raking in the loot as they await the election and their move to a cushy job on the City - while about to embark on their 3 month summer holiday to give them time for reflection and moat-cleaning supervision.

I'm very angry that they are not in jail.

Brown said recently that HE would now start to listen to his Back-Benchers.
But like the Prime Minister anyone would find it very hard to listen to anyone while ALL the time HE goe's around with HIS fingers firmly stuck in HIS ears, intently telling HIMSELF that HE is the best thing since slice bread.

What a way to run a government.


ELECTION PLEASE.......NOW !!!!!

Not long now, thank God.

It's an affront to democracy. Nice work Gordon. You've messed up the nation from top to bottom. The sad thing is that the state we're in was the Blair/Brown/Balls plan all along. The problem is that you guys never expected us to run out of money.

A masterclass in economic incompetence.

I guess that it will take some sort of 'new broom' to provide some sense of direction to Government but it is also depressing to think that, by default, that means the Tories again.

Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit.

At the next General Election, we shall know if a sea-change is occurring, as I am not convinced that 'focus groups' and the like are particularly accurate political pointers in such volatile times.

Nick,

"because he looked tired and was taking "tired decisions". "

The tired "leader" of a tired government ... time he retired !

Nick,

Why are "many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed." ???

Are these the same backbench MPs who were thumping the tables and cheering Gordon Brown - the best man for the job - at the PLP meeting recently ???

I assume the same mental calculations that kyboshed the attempt to push forward an opponent to Gordon Brown when Tony Blair resigned, and when Gordon Brown was most recently under threat, have caused yet another communal loss of bottle amongst the backbench Awkward Squad:

Successful Rebellion = Election in two months time followed by eternity in the wilderness;
or
Maintain status quo with weak leader = Election at the very last moment followed by eternity in the wilderness

4 LondonHarris

"many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."

Not with New Listening Gordon at the helm surely ???!?!?

7 johnconstable

"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."

====================================================
No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!

How much longer is this poor excuse of a government going to drag this once great country through the mud?. Please call an election now and stop this agony.

*They're* depressed?

They should try being one of us ordinary citizens, y'know those of us who don't get gold-plated pensions, a minimum 60k wage or a generous set of expenses.

Few Labour MPs have shown any spine over Brown, perhaps they're now realizing that Brown isn't the lifeboat, but the iceberg that holed the S.S. New Labour and all clinging onto him is doing is dooming them more rapidly.

GoBro doesn't look tired he looks incompetent and he is taking incompetent decisions.

Accept that you are just not cut out for the job. For the good of the country GoBro Go.

Introduce a 10p tax band, to help the poorer? Good idea.

Take it away? Bad idea.

Taking it away without thinking how it could have been retained JUST for the poorer? Idiotic.

Same guy. Playing silly games. Still, it's almost time for musical chairs.

Well done Frank Field and your few allies. What a spineless bunch are the rest of Labour.
Shame on you Brown. Shame on you Darling.
Ten pieces of Silver, not 10p!

"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."

Perhaps that's because THEY can also see that this is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship.
When our democratically elected representatives know that Gordon Brown and his Whips will bully the gutless in his party so that they do his bidding like a well-beaten dog, I can well imagine that those Labour MPs who care about the poor and the underprivileged *are* depressed.

But not as depressed as the rest of us!
And THEY, hopefully will do something about it. Soon.

"One told him that he should take a holiday because he looked tired and was taking "tired decisions".

Oops... that wasn't the party line, I suspect. Is it not the case in British Politics that to call a Minister, let alone the PM, "tired", that is the beginning of the end and everyone knows its. I wonder if this phrase was given to Nick on orders from a 'Spin' person who has been known to do this sort of thing in the past. Poisonous stuff!

Why are we not surprised that certain so-called rebels followed their 'Leader'? like lemmings just about to jump over the cliff!

They lost their bottle when faced with a very unlikely scenario presented by a panicking Chancellor and his team of money-wasters.

Clearly they are as gullible as Brown thinks (and hopes) the great British public is.

This Government lurches from one crisis to the next never willing to admit they have made mistakes, preferring instead to carry on playing politics with our futures.

All the recent stats show that GB PLC is worst placed in the world to recover from this recession and our borrowing is out of control.

Our EU 'partners' must be having a right good laugh!

Why did the Back-Bench Labour M.Ps, cave in? Surely they must have known the result of stopping the Budget? It cannot suddenly have been brought to their notice that no more income taxes would be collected if they continued their protest.
Once again there is something rotten in this state and the smell is as bad as last week's fish.
Was this just an attempt to keep their position only to get frightened off at the last moment?

"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed".

Must be how they felt when the expenses gravy train hit the buffers!

Lucky Brown for fighting off the rebels. Not so lucky for many on low incomes who have received nothing to make-up for losing the 10p tax band (e.g. myself).

Still, I suppose it was some time ago that Labour deserted the low income (not enough votes in it for them).

(see below)

See below WHAT?

sky nine @ 15

GoBro

that's not bad, haven't heard that one before - I'm quite impressed if you made that up - did you make it up?

" No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!

So that will be you and Mrs Pickle then.

As usual, the so-called labour "rebels" have not got one ball between them! They are, much like their leader, complete cowards!

Labour MP's had an opportunity to stand up for their core constituency and yet again, they kicked them in the guts!

Is this the most incompetent government ever? They have a Prime Minister who claims that, in a recession where people have less and less money, he will INCREASE spending and thinks that's an election-winning strategy. Cabinet ministers are too callow and spineless to stab him in the back themselves, just resigning at him and hoping someone else will step forward, and now backbenchers refuse to revolt because of a baseless threat that this imperils the entire national budget.

For some reason the words organize, brewery, up and couldn't come to mind.

I read a commentary piece somewhere recently (alas, I cannot remember where) which came to the conclusion that Gordon Brown is such a bitter, tribally entrenched individual that he just wants to leave as much of a mess as he possibly can for the next government to deal with because he knows he isn't going to be a part of it.

Sadly enough it made a certain amount of sense. Not knowing the man I have no idea how true it might actually be but from the way he seems to play as the dirtiest streetfighter in politics it wouldn't surprise me.

Someone, somewhere - PLEASE save the country before it's too late!

A very shallow victory indeed and the threats issued by some of the ministers involved would be laughable if they werent so stupid....

less than a year and we get our say on there handling of the economic chaos they have created,many back benchers will be out of jobs then .

Fair play to frank field for sticking to his guns,i admire someone who doesnt toe the party line and listens to the people who voted him in.....

We all know Labour governments relish keeping the poor down trodden, tribal and resentful, but they might be pushing their luck with this 10p debacle.

The removal of the 10p tax band was just one of many 'stealth taxes' introduced by this government into order to pay for massive increase in public sector funding (for which we are yet to see much concrete benefit).

Unfortunately the government lost its moral compass somewhere along the line (maybe Gordon had one once but when the day Tony actually left; Gordon in turn forgot his compass down the back of the sofa in No.11).

Since, not only are they without compass, but the global financial maelstrom has reversed the magnetic poles and left us truely lost...

We're at sea, lost, without compass, and Gordon is determined to go down at the Helm....

Oh look... an Iceberg called the National Debt approaches...

I caught most of Frank Field's speech. Very articulate, sensible and spoken with feeling. Just a pity so few were there to hear it.
Also saw one of the 'rebels' doing a 180. Trotted out the 'doomsday' line from the front bench.

Timms did not make any alternative suggestions so far as I could make out, just outlined what would go wrong if Field's proposal went through.

rust @ 29

Gordon Brown is such a bitter, tribally entrenched individual that he just wants to leave as much of a mess as he possibly can for the next government to deal with because he knows he isn't going to be a part of it

I wouldn't go that far although I imagine, so close to an election, he's not too motivated to take unpopular (but possibly beneficial) decisions - then again the Opposition are hoping the recession gets worse, aren't they? - that's politics, I'm afraid, so one shouldn't get too angry andy about it

How much longer are the British people supposed to put up with this "un-elected" and wholly useless PM?

WE NEED A GENERAL ELECTION . . . NOW!

On BBC's "This Week" recently, Diane Abbott told Andrew Neil that Labour whips keep a record of their MPs' sex lives, to be used as blackmail material at a later, convenient date. Nick, do you know anything about this? It strikes me that today was an ideal time for the whips to consult their notes.

Abbott has also made frequent comments to the effect that whips bully the weaker members of the PLP on a regular basis, but they leave her alone because they have learnt they don't scare her. What a way to run a country!

It wasn't a "threat" of tax chaos. I work in HMRC and the tax system would have combusted if the government were defeated on this.

I fail to see how even the most resentful Labour rebels thought this was a good idea, let alone the opposition parties.

Anyone who claims to represent "fiscal stability" in a time like this was utterly ignorant and irresponsible in backing this for whatever personal political motivation. God save us from these people....

Time was when Frank Field was just about the only Labour MP that I had any respect for, but not any more.
In the last 12 months or so he's completely lost it. All he has done is come up with an interminable series of "protest votes" all of which have either been cancelled at the last minute or failed to deliver anything.
Whatever ... there will be another "crisis" along in a minute. July 23rd in Norwich, I presume?

The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.

Labour vote to take it off them.

Hmm.

You have to have some sympathy for Brown. He needs to claw more money out of those of us daft enough to work for a living in order to give it to the Übermenschen who have figured out how to get paid for watching Trisha.

TIRED DECISIONS??

WE ARE ALL TIRED OF BROWN AND THE GANG EXCEPT FOR THE LOYAL FEW GRABBING

WHAT'S LEFT. BIT LIKE LOOTERS??

#37 crongtong

You work in HMRC, and presumably at a salary level which wasn't negatively affected by the doubling of the 10p rate.

However, you clearly don't understand Parliamentary procedure. Had the amendment passed, another amendment legitimising the past collection of taxes and a pro-tem continuation would have been proposed and unanimously passed.

#42 oldnat, you just beat me to it. Of course, after the unanimously passed resolution, GB would have to shuffle off to see HM for a dissolution and HMRC would continue on its merry way collecting tax, as it always does.

#37 crongtong, in my youth, I worked at the Inland Revenue (as it then was) and we got a memo along with the budget press releases telling us that the PCTA had been renewed and another memo telling us that the Finance Act had received the Royal Assent. Those memos went into enough detail for staff to know what the legal position was (I was a PAYE auditor so right on the front lines). Have they stopped issuing those memos?

@ oldnat, I suspect that something would have happened along those lines, I wonder if the other alternative is that the tax system valid to apr'09 would simply have continued to apply until a new budget passed - or is the budget only valid for a year? Does anyone know?

however what concerns me more is that there is legislation from the '60s that says it is ok to assume the budget will pass so start collecting taxes - what were they on back then? Surely the budget should not be brought in until passed by parliament, else what's the point of giving a vote?

"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."

On the bright side, at least it can be said the backbenchers are now more in touch with how the electorate are feeling.

I never thought I'd see the day a Labour Govt would consider it a good idea to increase taxes for the lower paid, very strange times we are living.

#43 Skip_NC

I might have to rename myself oldnat_NC, as I'll be out there for 8 weeks this summer!

May I congratulate whoever is responsible for the line alongside Mandys picture on the politics section of the beebs site, Video and Audio news section.

"Mandleson asked if he is PMs willie"

#44 KeJaMo, Income Tax must be renewed each year. The Provisional Collection of Taxes Act temporarily renews IT for four months after the budget. If a Finance Bill is not passed (or if it does not receive the Royal Assent) within that time, the income tax legislation is repealed automatically. There is actually a vote on the HoC on budget day, immediately after the speech, but it always goes through "on the nod." However, there is nothing to stop an MP shouting "No!" and causing a division.

oldnat, surely you are not visiting North Carolina in August? It's been hot this summer so far, certainly in the Triangle. Bring your sunscreen!

#47 xTunbridge

Funny that, just watched the video on PoliticsHome page:

Mandleson asked if he is PMs willie.

What a tired set of comments you have here:

People from the right bleating about Brown and so called democratic rights (apparently undermined), people from the left moaning about a supposed slight on the poor and still aiming a kick at Browns sore spot from last year.

But what do we really have? A bunch of moaning hypocrites on both sides -

The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.

And the left want Brown to do more but have spent the last year demolishing his political capital from within, and so are essentially on a power trip of their own - not on a quest for decent legislation.

I'm not going to argue that the government doesn't need direction - i'm just pointing out how disingenuous the parties involved here are.

What a disaster this country now is!

Shame on us all for allowing this to get to this stage and shame on Labour for not getting rid before now!

"How much longer is this poor excuse of a government going to drag this once great country through the mud?"

I love this statement, when was were we great, how many years ago was that? Thatcher destroyed all the treasured institutions that oiled our nation, the unions prevented investment in new technology with job losses etc etc etc...Since 1985 we have become a simple little financial outcrop, we don't build we don't innovate,we don't invent. We throw our weight around pretending we are big bullies hiding under America's skirt, while being morally bankrupt.
I wish that one day we'll give up our security council place, bring our troops home, take care of our elderley and infirm, make our feckless work, control the idiots in the city and make a country that is safe, fair and pleasant to live in....I'm going to sleep now perchance to dream....

#48 Skip_NC

August/ September! (childminding the grandson). I doubt the Triad is any better for heat!

39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.

Labour vote to take it off them.

Hmm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months

Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points

This whole 10p tax thing is crazy! I suspect it was done simply to increase revenue to pay for benefits.....a surefire vote winner. As the most taxed nation in Europe, taxes should be cut and deferrment cancelled, thus maintaining a stream of revenue as less people would be out of work cos compsnows could afford to pay their tax and ni.

Government is a disaster. They should have been sent packing months ago!

(I was unaware that a budget could 'fail' to be passed-now wouldn't that be fun to see!)

what a shambles this brown government is, penalize the poor to pay for the rich,brown should be ashamed of himself,and most labour mps.as a labour voter for all my life, they certainly wont get mine again,the sooner this rabble are chucked out the better.

Surely the significant story is that the chancellor, by employing a legal 'trick' (Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968), and a dramatic threat (tax will have to be repaid!), has enabled the government once again to pull the teeth of parliament, and get legislation agreed which is not popular with the majority.

No sympathy at all for the spineless,clueless and immoral wonders on the back benches as they head for their long, long, long summer holiday. No sympathy either for Brown and Darling - faffing around to defend an indefensible position just to get one over on the Tories.

When the elction comes we will of course all remember the Labour (and DUP!) MPs who couldn't bring themselves to protect the 10p tax payers - the headlines will be "Brown doubled tax on poorest million". Nice work Labour, that will have cost you another 5% at the polls.

When will Brown show some moral fibre and realise his time has long gone?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."
-------------------------------------------------------------

It seems more likely that the majority will simply not vote. Most people I speak to do not like (and in some cases violently hate) all the mainstream parties. They are generally very confused about who to vote for. The likely outcome will be either a vote for the tories to get Gordon out, or not voting at all.

The really tragic part? If everyone that felt like this voted for a pro UK party (instead of the pro EU mainstream) then that pro UK party would win by a landslide and our country could be returned to proper democratic accountability once more. There are far far far more uncommitted, fed up, frustrated voters, (likely non-voters) than there are supporters of the mainstream.

How are we going to break the conditioning that only tory or labour can win?

The government won the citizen lost is now the current state.

That is usually the case in a dictatorship

But we are a democracy with elected leaders who are accountable to us arent we?

Well maybe it is the old standards
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely even when you are a back bencher you abandon principles to tow the line, or should that be toe the line.

Party politics stinks how about people, principle, progress, promulgation, philanthropy and passion.

SO like last time the rebials have accepted promises that no taxx payers will lose out..... and thw threat that the all income tax paid so far would have to be repaid....

So thay backed down.

Blined being lead by Flash Gordan, whe whips must have worked overtime.

So what happens now... Our Tax system gets even more complex, in order to grantee no-one loses out we will have to give more back to every one. (for example the first fix of raising the tax bands).

All Gordan needs to do is accept the easiest fix is actually to re-instate the 10p band for every one (it was not abolished for savings or some pensioners) and to SIMPLIFY the tax rules.

So Gordans Fixes will cost 10-100% more to us than reinstating the band!

But dispite admitying that the 10p band removal was a slight mistake - reinstating it would be totally against Gordans morals!

" It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."

Nick don't you mean another day when the needs of the narrow Labour Party interest won out over the needs of the poor.

My heart bleeds for them

Slightly off topic but still tax releated:-

The goverment has all but admitted today that student loans (and write-offs) are costing us £10,000 for each student.

Otherwise why would they be suggesting that university students that do not take out any goverment backed loans or receive a university bursery might will not be charge tuitition fees. IE approx £3300 a year for 3 years making 10k for the course.

Of course the student must then either fully fund the accouidation etc either from their parents or by taking out a not goverment backed loan.

Other reasions for the offer might be:-
They have failed to sell off the student loan company so the debt is still on the goverment books;
Last years budget changed the interest calculation from CPI to RPI (meaning students will be charge negative interest this year);
Repayments are plumiting and the percentage of loans to be written off over 20years is rising.
Gradurate starting salaries are falling.

york1900 54

York you have made this claim that the Conservatives plan to cut the minimum wage a few times now. You have been asked to provide proof of this by a few of us because we have seen nothing to suggest this. You have up to now not answered those requests will you do so now please.

Unless I have missed something the Conservatives are not cutting the minimum wage if they get into office. I would therefore like to know where your information comes from because this would be very important if it were true.

Another great triumph for a debased democracy in the hands of those who believe in top down national socialism.

If they really believe they are right - which they can't do... not at that moment when GB is on the blower saying "Yeah, I'll keep that project going in your constituency if you back me on this vote that you blatantly don't agree with!" - as I was saying, if they really think they're right they'll take it to the voters and ask for our support, the decent way!

Brown may have been called a liar recently but I could think of far worse things to call him and his cronies... I'll save it for later!

saga 34

Really sagamix, this takes the biscuit: "the Opposition are hoping the recession gets worse, aren't they?" No, of course they aren't. Indeed, to suggest otherwise is a remarkable position for an unbiased, new-found "floating voter" to take up. Are you going to supply us with some in-context evidence to support your thesis, or alternatively maybe a retraction? ("No" and "No", I suspect.)

(For "floating voter", read arch Brownite propagandist, I think.)

54. At 01:26am on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.

Labour vote to take it off them.

Hmm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months

Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

York, you have raised this spurious claim about the Tories a few times and when challenged to provide concrete evidence of your claims, you simply don't or rather can not, for the simple fact the Tories have never mentioned anything of the sort.

How can it be right that MP's who do not intend standing in the next general election can vote on leglisation for 2010 onward.
There should be an immediate by-election in every constituency where MP's of any party are standing down.

Heartwarming to see how all those Labour rebels stuck to their moral guns and voted, oh, er, for a few more months at the trough.

Hopefully their core vote, the one's they have just turned their backs on, will remember and repay them accordingly at the ballot box.


=========================================
12. At 9:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
7 johnconstable

"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."

====================================================
No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!


===========================================================

I certainly won't be voting for the big three, having just seen that my taxes have just paid for £500 of be linen for my Tory MP.

A vote for anyone else other than labour wil still get Brown out, we don't have to have one of the big three at the top.

If I might paraphrase Neil Kinnock.

I never thought I would see the sight of a Labour Government, A LABOUR GOVERNMENT, increasing taxation for the poorest in society in order to benefit the better off.

Has there ever been a more mendacious and incompetent government than this one?

50 Dayvin

'The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.'

What a ridiculous thing to say. I think you'll find many on the right would like to set the tax rate _at_ 10p and raise the threshold so the poor don't even pay tax.

"york1900 wrote:
This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months"

While I agree that the Tories voted in such a way to make the government look bad (and weak) in front of the voters, I have yet to see you provide ANY proof of your continued accusations that the Tories will scrap the minimum wage. They may have been against it initially but to my knowledge they have made no promises to scrap it.

I would be very happy to be corrected on this, but at the moment it just looks like you are making unproven accusations.

"16. At 9:39pm on 07 Jul 2009, fairlyopenmind wrote:
Introduce a 10p tax band, to help the poorer? Good idea.

Take it away? Bad idea.

Taking it away without thinking how it could have been retained JUST for the poorer? Idiotic."

Tsk tsk, you do not have a PROPER understanding of Gordon's infalibility.

As Gordon sees it...

Introduce 10p rate = good idea. Abolish 10p rate = good idea.

zero % starting rate for small companies = good idea. Abolishing it = good idea.

Knocking 2.5% off VAT = boost to the economy. Put 2.5% back on VAT = boost to the economy.

Tory proposal to reduce burden of IHT (excemption of family homes)= Bad idea. Labour proposal to reduce burden of IHT (transferable allowances) = Great idea.

And on and on.....

The man really is pathologically damaged.

Refusal to see reality, temper tantrums, constant meddling in everything, stabbing of colleagues in the back, firing of those who refuse to obey, unable to accept any blame, deranged belief that only he has the answers, deranged belief that if only everyone followed him he would be victorious, belief that new 'wonder policies' will snatch victory from defeat. Is this Britain June 2009 or Berlin April 1945?

If the Labour bankbenchers truly had the stomach for such a rebellion then they would have voted against Brown in the dissolution of parliament vote a while back.

Yes they are upset and concerned - in a theatrical, photo-opportunity, sound-bite way.

They are also in a well paid job, but probably not for much longer.

And what sort of legacy do this current lot of parliamentarians leave for posterity? Well, the way the reforms are being watered down says more than an American Express card can about the lot of them!

All this BBC, Sky and other political commentary is becoming like some sort of third rate soap opera. It's all very interesting and even entertaining.

The REALITY, however, is that parliament has lost its street-cred and both politics (as she is spoken) and democracy (as she is practised) in the UK have seriously 'lost their way' and no politician is addressing those fundamental issues because they are all focussing on their own interests.

"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed"

- what were they depressed about - their own lack of back bone and betrayal of the low paid?

It was in their hands to right the issue but they flunked it in the name of party loyalty.

Personally at this stage of Parliament, I would guess the electorate would respect Labour backbenchers much more for voting on principle than rallying round to support a mortally wounded leader.

Where on earth did you get this claim that the Tories are going to reduce the minimum wage-it's simply not true.
What doesn't make sense to me though is that people on the minimum wage still pay tax.
The whole 10p issue could be easily resolved if the non tax threshold was raised to avoid minumum wage earners paying tax at all.

"This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months

Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points "

Thanks for the laugh York 1900!

Scottish non rebellious MPs , who should hang their collective heads in shame and who include a few " flippers" and "questionable capital gains evaders"allegedly, include,

Alexander, Douglas; Banks, Gordon; Begg, Anne; Brown, Gordon; Brown, Russell; Browne, Des; Cairns, David; Clarke, Tom; Connarty, Michael; Darling, Alistair; Donohoe, Brian H.; Doran, Frank; Griffiths, Nigel; Hamilton, David; Harris, Tom; Ingram, Adam; Joyce, Eric; Lazarowicz, Mark; McAvoy, Thomas; McFall, John; McGovern, Jim; McGuire, Anne; McKechin, Ann; McKenna, Rosemary; Moffat, Anne; Murphy, Jim; Osborne, Sandra; Reid, John; Robertson, John; Roy, Frank; Roy, Lindsay; Sarwar, Mohammad; Sheridan, Jim; Strang, Gavin.

34 Scottish Labour MPs , some of whom are the most expensive in the UK , one of whom is the Secretary of State for Scotland, two of whom are "sons of the manse"with of course a " moral compass" one of whom makes wee films of him amd " his friend" in the HoC, and one who is an ex priest.
However , the one who upsets me most ,because I had credited him with a smidgeon of integrity, is John McFall.

Labour the Party of the working man and champions of the underdogs! Ha! Ha!Ha!

79, Diabloandco
Labour the Party of the working man and champions of the underdogs!

You are right, that was Labour, but we are dealing with New Labour, the spinning machine that is all about self preservation. The fact is that they have relied on the middle classes to support them over the last 12 years as the traditional Labour core support has seen through their smoke and past their mirrors. New Labour have lost the support of the working men of this country, and have now lost the support of the middle classes. They are being held to ransom by the Unions as it's their only source of funding, and the leader is so vulnerable that he is forced into doing deals or compromising on anything that may be slightly contentious (such as last night) and is forced to drop anything that is a challenge (Royal Mail, CSR etc).

Gonna be a long and damaging year for us all till voting day I fear

Hi Nick

Isn't one of the principles of the Labour party that they should help the poor? Yet we have a government which after months of denying that a policy change will hurt the poor has now bullied its MPs into supporting its policy.

Have they had a policy change and they no longer wish to support the poor? Perhaps you could ask them.

If not the parliamentary Labour party should be ashamed of what it has just voted for.....

Well, I don't know the ins and outs, the nuances, of the 10p tax debacle other than to say the way Brown initially dealt with it was unforgiveable.

He swept it aside but when the issue would not go away he eventually agreed to some sort of recompense but, I gather, not the full amount.

Now, even worse than the money is the fact that this is a LABOUR government who put themselves up for the people first and foremost and this issue coupled with the EXPENSES debacle is enough to topple them from their "moral high ground" stance once and for all.

New balls needed.

Sagamix @25
"GoBro

that's not bad, haven't heard that one before - I'm quite impressed if you made that up - did you make it up?"

I'm afraid so but it's only an adaption of the current craze of using the first 2 letters of both the first and surname as in Susan Boyle (the GB look alike) being abbreviated to SuBo!!

74 Mark We
You ask for proof that the Tories had said that they would repeal the minimum wage, well that would be difficult to prove now as to my recollection they never actually said it in the house of commons where proof could easily be obtained.
They certainly said it on many political interviews, I suppose if you wanted you could get that information from the BBC or Sky, but I would have thought that their vehement opposition to the minimum wage at the time it was brought before the house would have been enough.
At that time they threatenned that thousands of people would become unemployed businesses would collapse, and that it would become a disaster,since that did'nt happen the've kept very quiet about it, but that does'nt mean that they did'nt say it.
They also said, actually this one in the house that they would repeal the ban on fox hounting, I somehow think that one will be left alone considering the huge vote against hunting in the house.
They also assured us on Tv interviews but I'm not sure about in the house that they would withdraw the winter fuel allowance. and I'm sure most of you Tories will want to deny that.

pdblake @ 70

We cannot know precisely what the politicians at the 'big three' parties are thinking with regard to their future electoral prospects.

However, I suspect that a vengeful electorate who might well vote at the next General Election for 'anybody except the above', is the uppermost fear in their minds.

In my opinion, the English can set themselves politically free by doing precisely that i.e. voting for anybody other than the 'big three'.

It probably won't turn out that way, that is, buggins (the Tories) will take their turn, which may be a catalyst for the Scots to vote for independence in November 2010 and we English will then be in a different political situation anyway.

It appears that today a "Nu"- Labour Politician might be questioning His/Her own sanity by being a Member of a group whoms roots stem from itself the SAME grass-roots of the Working Classes only to find that instead of being a champion FOR the cause by raising the livelyhoods, and take Home pay of the Poor by ensuring that at lease they DON'T and WON'T have to pay excessive Income Tax demands, for instead intern turn-coating by completely abandoning the fight and "The Cause" by again effectivly voting to raise the 10 pence threshold on the LOWER RATE OF INCOME TAX by 100%, which WILL ONLY effect those that those the so-called, and very same in "Nu"- Labour profess to serve.

While, it has looked over the recent period that this "Nu-Labour Government has been holding a loaded Gun to its own Head, with the outcome of events in Parliament in this last Day we have now seen that very same Gun being finally fired, and you know what, Gordon MISSED AGAIN, for the only People that are going to suffer will be those whom make up the back-bone of the British Society whom have so far stayed silent in fear of losing their Job's just managing to to get by from this April on a reduced Pay Packet thanks to these same Self - Serving "Nu"- Labour Politicians whom voted to compound, and enforce a Pay reduction for the Poor.

In the Case of the Poor, for indeed, with Friends like "Nu-Labour including the lackies of RICH TUC UNION LEADERS, then who needs ANY Enemies, and moreover from now on WHOM is going to represent the Working-Classes?

No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
Aneurin Bevan

Nice one, Nye, but I wonder what he would say about the Labour Party today.

Re: 'The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one of the most rediculous comments I have ever read. It was the Tories that introduced the 10p band (in 1992) and they have voted against it being scrapped within the last 48 hours.

"grandantidote wrote:
74 Mark We
You ask for proof that the Tories had said that they would repeal the minimum wage, well that would be difficult to prove now as to my recollection they never actually said it in the house of commons where proof could easily be obtained."

So that would be no actual firm proof then?

"They certainly said it on many political interviews, I suppose if you wanted you could get that information from the BBC or Sky, but I would have thought that their vehement opposition to the minimum wage at the time it was brought before the house would have been enough."

Obviously it can't be that easy to find as I am suspect you may have done a quick search to back up your post! Yes, they were opposed to the minimum wage when it was brought before the house but their reasons for opposing it never actually came about (we didn't have a massive small business collapse) If they wanted to revoke it now they would need to come up with a new reason as their old one is no longer valid.

"At that time they threatenned that thousands of people would become unemployed businesses would collapse, and that it would become a disaster,since that did'nt happen the've kept very quiet about it, but that does'nt mean that they did'nt say it."

So you agree that the Tory's reason for opposing the minimum wage was wrong yet you are trying to suggest that a Tory party that is trying to win Labour voters (who are most likely to benefit from the minimum wage) will repeal the minimum wage. Why? They have no reason to repeal it and a very good one not to!

They may have said it in the past but you yourself admit that they have kept quiet about it recently! Obviously suggesting that repealing the minimum wage is not one of their current policies.

"They also assured us on Tv interviews but I'm not sure about in the house that they would withdraw the winter fuel allowance. and I'm sure most of you Tories will want to deny that."

They may well have done, but I expect many pensioners would happily lose the allowance if it was replaced by a proper increase in pensions (but I doubt it will be)

#54 york1900

The Tories have plans to cut the minimum wage?

I suppose it's possible although who knows what the Tories are really planning as they dodge the issues and never make it clear - they're currently the anything to everyone party, just happy to please all voters which is worrying.

Regarding the minimum wage, in fairness to the Tories, Boris Johnson in London actually increased the minimum wage for all GLA employees to a living wage. I live in hope.

These are not normal times. However, this is not a normal Prime Minister.

Gordon is a self serving lunatic and he needs removal immediately, if not sooner.

So New Labour tax policy is.....
Raise the top band of tax from 40 to 50%, which will inconvenience a few AND to increase the bottom rate of tax from 10 to 20% which will hurt millions.

Brilliant.........not

65. At 08:51am on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
york1900 54

York you have made this claim that the Conservatives plan to cut the minimum wage a few times now. You have been asked to provide proof of this by a few of us because we have seen nothing to suggest this. You have up to now not answered those requests will you do so now please.

Unless I have missed something the Conservatives are not cutting the minimum wage if they get into office. I would therefore like to know where your information comes from because this would be very important if it were true.
_________________________________________________________________________

Here is the link you should look at and see what is coming our way
and there is no spin on this link
https://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899

You will see that if this gets through well all are in danger of of getting a fair days pay

79 diabloandco
#Scottish non rebellious MPs , who should hang their collective heads in shame and who include a few " flippers" and "questionable capital gains evaders"allegedly, include,

Alexander, Douglas; Banks, Gordon; Begg, Anne; Brown, Gordon; Brown, Russell; Browne, Des; Cairns, David; Clarke, Tom; Connarty, Michael; Darling, Alistair; Donohoe, Brian H.; Doran, Frank; Griffiths, Nigel; Hamilton, David; Harris, Tom; Ingram, Adam; Joyce, Eric; Lazarowicz, Mark; McAvoy, Thomas; McFall, John; McGovern, Jim; McGuire, Anne; McKechin, Ann; McKenna, Rosemary; Moffat, Anne; Murphy, Jim; Osborne, Sandra; Reid, John; Robertson, John; Roy, Frank; Roy, Lindsay; Sarwar, Mohammad; Sheridan, Jim; Strang, Gavin.

And you have definitive proof of your allegations against these people do you?. Perhaps since you appear to have a aptitude for these things perhaps you would like to give us a list of Tories that have been listed for their misdemeanors not Scots of course as their pretty thin on the ground.


I thought that I should remind you of this since I did'nt have a opportunity to answer you.

#345. Diabloandco wrote:
Grandantidote , old chum I referred another who deemed the politics of envy to be a worthy pastime, and who spends much of his/her time on this blog pursuing a "Labour is best and lets sneer at all others" while birlin' like a peerie.

I was amazed at your gall,you complained that people were being referred
and when I suggested to you that you must have referred, you replied rather proudly with the above, which clearly inicates that if you disagree with someones post you consider that it falls upon you to refer them irrespective of their right of free speech, so we have to consider that if you post something that I or anyone else does'nt agree with we are quite at liberty to refer your post, is that right?.


#By the way try " have " not "of" - grammatically it's a pet hate of mine.
Along with " invite"used as a noun.

With regard to the above, I am a little to old in the tooth to recieve instruction from you however well intentioned.
So you can write a grammaticaly correct letter. what other skills do you have?, I have many from building a number of yachts 55' 47' 43' in length among a number of others that I have built in wood. steel, concrete, and GP, I have also restored a number of old vessels that now grace several museums both here and abroad.
I have built and I have sailed and navigated some of these craft over many seas and two oceans, I wont go into the many other skills that I have to hand as they all pale into insignificance compared to you ability to write a grammatically correct letter don't you think?.

74. At 09:26am on 08 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"york1900 wrote:
This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months"

While I agree that the Tories voted in such a way to make the government look bad (and weak) in front of the voters, I have yet to see you provide ANY proof of your continued accusations that the Tories will scrap the minimum wage. They may have been against it initially but to my knowledge they have made no promises to scrap it.

I would be very happy to be corrected on this, but at the moment it just looks like you are making unproven accusations.
_________________________________________________________________________

https://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899

"..backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed.." and "..looking tired PM making 'tired decisions'.."

Well, imagine how the UK/England Public feels!

A Scottish PM whom no one south of the border had even a chance to vote for or against.
An Expenses Scandal affecting 470+ of elected MPs, Cabinet Ministers etc. and not one dis/honourable resignation from Westminster.
A promise of a Reformed Parliament and as a first step the 650 elect as Speaker 2 x House flipper Bercow - - the sort of 'political transparency' more associated with Zimbabwhe, China etc.
A Parliament for Scotland, an Assembly for Wales and devolved power-sharing for Northern Ireland, and for England and the English... Nothing.
A Manifesto promise of a Referendum on the EU Constitution reneged on.
A deliberate Policy ploy of suggesting a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is simply dropped.
A National Enquiry on Iraq that is not Public nor accountable to the Public (they even had to be reminded the Families of dead/wounded Armed Forces would want to be represented/have a voice!).
A 10p Tax-Rate cut without any regard to the millions of lowest-paid affected and they are still trying to paper over the debilitating cracks.
A continued UK/England Membership of the European Union despite the most recent EU Parliament election turnout failing to have 1 MEP returned with 33% of the Votes cast (and 2 fascists elected).
A simply, plainly, wholly ridiculous Report, only yesterday, claiming that 'immigrants' do not get piority Housing/Benefits when every City and Town across the Isles has to 'House' them or the streets would be flooded with 750,000 Government 'known' entrants in 2007-08.
A Banking and Investment system in meltdown putting 3.5 million out of work whilst the Bosses retire on huge Pensions and not 1 is prosecuted.

"Depressed"? "Tired"?

As 'nolemonade' wrote at #3: Pity the whole 650 MPs are not "suicidal" because that is how the conniving, venal, undemocratic Brown, Cameron, Clegg etc. have left the rest of us feeling!

68. At 09:07am on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
54. At 01:26am on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.

Labour vote to take it off them.

Hmm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters

But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months

Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points

_________________________________________________________________________

https://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899

Is this the bit you mean York from your link


leave out from `welcomes' to end and add `the publication of the Employment Opportunities Bill which would inter alia give a right to work to asylum seekers whose applications for asylum are awaiting determination and which would also enable any employee who would otherwise qualify for entitlement to the national minimum wage to elect to opt out from such entitlement; notes that the Bill does not abolish the minimum wage; regrets that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East and his colleagues have failed to comprehend the contents of the Bill; and calls on them to bring to the attention of the public the contents of Clause 2(5) of the Bill which makes clear that nothing in the Bill shall require a person to take employment below the minimum wage and that no person shall suffer any detriment to their entitlement to national insurance benefits by reason of their unwillingness to take employment below the minimum wage.'.
Signatures( 8)

Read and see

Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con):

https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090210/debtext/90210-0004.htm

I think there is something very destructive about Frank Field, he ws prepared to wreck the budget for the sake of £1 per week. what the Dickens does £1. buy these days, not even a cup of coffee.