Test of leadership and authority

"This doesn't make the prime minister's problems any easier. He faces a choice between backing down and facing further accusations that he's lost authority and abandoned New Labour or standing firm and splitting his party and antagonising his union backers.

As I've noted before, his "loyal deputy" Harriet Harman and his Chief Whip, Nick Brown, have previously tried to kick this idea into the long grass.

Now what do they do?"

The honourable thing? Call an election.

Nick,

"loyal deputy" Harriet Harman

Come on Nick, tell us what you know, that makes you use the quotation marks like that !

I hope the Tories won't vote for the partial privatisation of the PO simply for party purposes.

I can't see the limited injection of cash (1 or 2 BIL would be handy for me, but lose change in today's economic climate) won't sort out the pension problem and will only start to help widescale technical innovation.

Both parties have failed to encourage / force the organisation to get to grips with a changing market. The PO was well positioned to become a player in UK distribution (except it needed a massive shake up of management and staff practices).

It's not just the politics, it's the business sense that has to be right.

"I do not believe that Gordon Brown is about to be de-fenestrated...."

Sorry Nick, but could you please explain this one to me as well.

perhaps you could post regarding all those labour MPs who campaigned to "save our local post office" in their local papers, then they went to parliament and voted with the government to close the very same local post offices?

highlighting some of the numerous occasions this contradiction has happened, between what labour MPs say locally and how they vote (or conveniently dont turn up to vote) when the matter is before parliament, would be real political news.

#4 StrictlyPickled

Bunkers don't have windows.

I find it incredible that Gordon Brown has yet again managed to steer the government into a very difficult position. How does he manage to do it on such a regular basis ? And for how much longer can he be allowed to ?

I feel sorry for Gordon Brown.

I feel even more sorry for the UK.

Gordon Brown and NuLab are making the whole country wobbly. Including all communities that need a local post office.

Gordon Brown, either way, has lost with the Royal Mail because I don't believe the public want it.

It's all well and good to talk about Westminster tactics but if the public don't want it, it doesn't really matter. He shouldn't have pursued it in the first place.

I'm puzzled.... de-fenestrated (thrown out of a window)? What do you mean, Nick?

#7 Yes, he's like a moth to a candle and currently the Tories' greatest asset.

Hilarious to watch as Clown and Co stagger from crisis to crisis - only the BBC to help him now - stick the knife in Mr Cameron - BUT hey, Clown is their best asset - on second thoughts keep him where he is until 2010 and roll on the end of ZanuLabour corruption as personified by ANOTHER second homes expenses - this one not EVEN lived in - what about FRAUD - where r the Police a la Mr Green?????????????

already we have seen the termination of Post Office post buses , this even though the councils paid them to do it ,its not like the post vans were not going that way anyway, but this will then lead to the smaller population areas getting a poorer service, and a mass scramble by opportunist companies to hoover up the good areas. This is the last thing to be privatised , ironic that Labour are doing it...... ah wait I forgot the NHS, I wonder who will privatise this then?.
I can just see it now "oh there is no money in the tin" , we will run a scheme get vouchers for care , but you can get insurance for this too , mmm where have i heard that before. Is there anything else that can be sold off ?

Is Harriet going to be the "Heseltine" trojan horse then ? I wonder who is scheming away in the background ??????????

A good post Nick, but you omit one obvious point. Why did Brown embark on this crusade in the first place? After all, he has manged to delay every other 'tough' decision until after the election; so why pick a fight here?

Moreover, his reliance on Tory votes leaves him politically exposed. From now until July, Cameron can demand that the GVN hold the line against the Labour rebels. Too many concessions and Cameron can threaten to walk away.... Brown's strategy just doesn't make sense. The Post Office should ahve been tackeld in Blair's first time.

The Post Office is a smoke screen and demonstrates adequately what this government's fiddling has done to the wider economy.

By taking away its more profitable enterprises, restricting the ability to invest in new equipment by denying access to PFI or private equity, and hobbling the pension fund and refusing to fill the hole the Royal Mail is now a zombie institution

Thus the government need to divorce themselves from it because they have no idea how to run a business

I will be waiting for the update, but I'm presuming that the ceasefire will simply be an occasion for both sides to gather further ammunition for the siege that is inevitable after the Council and Euro elections

Brown can't grasp the fact that he is the Conservative's greatest asset, unless he is so strategic that he want's to ensure that no Labour Government will have the opportunity to enter Drowning Street after him. That would be his footnote in British History

"StrictlyPickled wrote:
Nick,

"loyal deputy" Harriet Harman

Come on Nick, tell us what you know, that makes you use the quotation marks like that !"

My guess is that he used the quotation marks because he was quoting Harman. After all I doubt that she would be as politically naive as to help finish off Brown after openly admitting that she has no desire for the leadership.

Currently her best chance of being party leader is if the party come to her and ask her to reconsider (very unlikely if she has blood on her hands).

StrictlyPickled

If you defenestrate someone you throw them out of a window, That's the literal meaning - but it's a great word for giving someone the boot! I am not sure why Nick hyponated it though

Gordon Brown: the man who surely has the "reverse midas" touch. How much longer can the country bear to watch this incompetent bully blundering from one disaster to another?

Nick can you or any one else tell me what the hell sense is there in closing a blog just when it gets interesting , why cut off a blog at 562 or 180 can someone please tell me the logic in that, I have been off blog for a few weeks so I might have missed something or are the bbc above giving explanation for acting in a way that most of us I guess find damned annoying, this is not of blog its a question of leadership in the state owned media station.

De-fenestrated - "Defenestration is the act of throwing someone or something out of a window" Pease Nick stick to plain english.

Mandleson is clearly pulling Brown`s strings. He had a hizzy fit over the car scrappage scheme, which he got his way on; but we still have to see the details of the scheme in black and white. Now Mandleson is doing the same over Royal Mail. How is it going to look on the doorstep, this side of the June elections, that Brown is forcing through the sell off part of another british institution to a foreign company? I think many labour activists will refuse point blank to go out canvassing. Asking themselves what is the point as they are so obviously on course for a thrashing.

More importantly can Brown really count on Cameron`s support when the time comes? The only way Brown is going to get this through parliament is with the support of the conservatives, never mind the House of Lords, where the outcome may well be very different. What if DC is playing a game of bluff with Brown and orders his MPs to abstain at the 11th hour, thereby engineering a vote of no confidence in the PM.

I just cannot believe Brown is taking on this fight when his standing within his own party, let alone the country, is at such an all time low.

I personally think the stress of the job has got to him. Consequently he is making some real errors of judgement which will surely result in his downfall. Even his defenestration.

6 coleneldigby

Thanks.

From post 9 it looks like I wasn't the only one who didn't understand what Nick meant!

The Tories want to keep Brown for as long as possible - he seems to have an infinite capacity to make Labour look both "scheming" and "Inept".

The final coup-de-grace will need to be delivered to Brown with considered timing:

- Once there is no hope of Labour replacing Brown with a credible figure

- Once it is safe for Conservatives to start to outline policy details

- Before the economy starts to right itself.

January / February 2010 will be a suitably miserable, post Christmas and bleak winter period. I'd put 50p on the Conservatives aiming to finally 'slot' Brown around about then.....

What I want to know is did Gordon shout at you and throw a printer in your direction last week? Is that why you've been all quiet recently?

Part privatize = modernization of procedures = redundancies

So why not just modernise anyway? After what was spent on the banks a few more billion to modernise the post office (and that includes the pension system) will not be missed. There would still have to be redundancies but they could then be stretched over a longer time frame all be voluntary and the Royal Mail would still be owned by the tax payer. You would also need to readdress the mail delivered by the private sector they would also need to offer a universal mail service with a one price fits all as does the Post Office. To stop them pawning off their unwanted deliveries to the Post Office let the PO charge 10% above their first class delivery rate to the private companies. It is the Royal Mail once the best public postage system in the world (pre-1997)if there is to be competition then untie it's hands and let it fight it's own corner. The same could be said of BT. Though I can see how difficult this would be for ZaNuLiebour to work out so I Will do you a favour give me the job with the terms as above and I'll turn it round in six months and I'll do it for a 1/4 of the salary you are paying the present Muppet. Give me a call the BBC has my number on file.

Nick I have just had a check, just trying to catch up, I'm beginning to understand we only have one blog at a time now. I suppose its down to the recession, had to lay off a couple of moderaters Eh!, I'll bet the one whose left will find time to moderate my two posts though, bles his/ her heart got to find something to do I guess.

16 Jules Woodell

"defenestrate someone you throw them out of a window, That's the literal meaning - but it's a great word for giving someone the boot!"

Perhaps it would have been better to have said that instead! What would have been lost in eloquence would have been compensated for in clarity, What would Hazel Blears say about using such a word ?

Nick: "I do not believe that Gordon Brown is about to be de-fenestrated".

Have you seen Rachel Sylvester's article in the Times?

"One minister told me she was now ashamed to be a Labour MP and that never in my darkest moments did I think it could get so bad."

https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rachel_sylvester/article6222055.ece

With sentiments like these, how can Brown survive a bad euro-election?

BTW I love the BBC spin on the European elections yesterday. Did you catch your colleague Nick, saying that 3rd or 4th place might be an accepatble result for the GVN? Now all parties play the expectation game, but 3rd or 4th place in a national election! Please - 3rd place would be a nightmare for Brown. As for 4th - I simply don't believe that is possible - even with Brown in charge.

We need an election now, we need a new Government with new ideas and a new Parliament with MPs and Ministers who cannot claim for patio heaters and bath plugs. However, why on earth does Brown battle on? - his Premiership has clearly failed, he has run out of steam and he gets a daily kicking from his own side, let alone from the opposition. It is strange how PMs in the position of John Major and Gordon Brown grimly hold on until the last bitter moment.

It is a mad situation when the Opposition will support a government motion purely to keep a totally incompetent opponent in office. This country is in big trouble, we need to address the budget crisis. The Queen must be petitioned to dissolve parliament and force an election.

Whether they support the Bill now, or enact something similar when they come to power, the Conservatives will still suffer politically for killing off the PO as we know it, even if it makes business sense or not.

It therefore makes no sense for the Conservative Party to support the Government on this measure. Making clear that they will oppose the Bill in its current form would force Brown to either drop the plan, or attach a Vote of Confidence motion to the debate. Labour MPs then have the option of saving their jobs for another year or pressing the self-destruct button.

If the plan is dropped, Brown loses even more authority. If it goes ahead, either Labour win, and are tarred with the brush of destroying the PO, or they lose a confidence motion and the Government falls.

Either way, politically, it's win-win for the Conservatives.

"StrictlyPickled wrote:
Perhaps it would have been better to have said that instead! What would have been lost in eloquence would have been compensated for in clarity, What would Hazel Blears say about using such a word ?"

I recently read an on-line comment on the Guardian site which used the same phrase (only about Jackie Smith). Maybe it was as simple as Nick found a new word and wanted to use it?

You have to admit it does have a bit of flair!

Seems to me that this is another reason for Scotland to quit the Union. We all know that one of the intentions of the Royal Mail's management is to slash services in particularly remoter parts of Scotland.... They've already cut the Post Bus service which provided a transport life line to some very remote communities.

Scottish Post is perhaps something we need to seriously consider.

De-fenestrated. I think that an adviser to the King was thrown out of a window of Prague castle back in the middle ages. I think it may have happened twice - it's something like that anyway.

It is a term that has come to mean forcing a politician out of office. I thought quite widely used but evidently not!

Gordon Brown isn't going to be kicked out now simply because only a complete fool would agree to take over and lead Labour into an election which must be announced within 12 months. Short of something extraordinary happening it's not winnable - the wiser members will want to throw their hats into the ring afterwards and be the person to bring the Party back to life, not the one whose job it was to finish putting the lights out.

What a strange word to use (de-fenestrated) somehow reminiscent of the Romans, throwing chicken drumsticks away without a care where they land. Is this what Nick meant, even his own party wouldn't care where he lands?

Why wont he tell us now what he means - what is he waiting for - proof that Brown is caught in a net of his own making and has nowhere to go?

Nick,

Your a football fan. Indeed, your one of the few Man Utd fans who have actuually been to Old Trafford (hope you get stuffed tonight, BTW). So no doubt you have heard the fans chanting: "You don't know what your doing... You don't know what your doing".

Perhaps you could help the press pack start a little rendition of the above jitty at Gordon Brown's next monthly press conference. After all, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing with the economy; just like he hasn't got a clue with the Gurkhas and the Post Office. Have we ever had, a more politically inept Prime Minister? Serious question Nick? Answer's on a postcard, please...

One further question - under the GVN's current post office plans, who would get control of the monies already tied up in the PO pension scheme? Does the money, together with the future liabiity revert back to the taxpayer or is it just the liability. Because if it's the former, then I'll bet that is Brown's reason for pressing ahead with this scheme... i.e. he needs the cash.

#26 ngodinhdiem

"With sentiments like these, how can Brown survive a bad euro-election?"

Do you ever get the impression that Labour MPs are simply waiting to lose the next general election?

That'll probably change once they realise that Gordon Brown won't resign even then. He is, quite frankly, delusional enough not to feel any personal culpability for the Labour Party's woes.

Go on Nick, ask Gordon whether he will resign if they lose the next general election. Watch as Labour members everywhere turn an ashen white at the mere thought of being stuck with Gordon indefinitely. I'm sure the mildest speculation of such a thing would force the meekest Labour MP to 'man up'.

OT I admit - is there any particular reason that the BBC has not mentioned Lady Uddin's housing arrangements?

Nick

Surely the EU's postal service directives on open competition and conditions for State aid more-or-less dictate the future of Royal Mail, not the choice of nationalised or part-privatised as we are led to believe? Brussels (Mandelson?) will have the ultimate say.

R.M. never really stood a chance; pensions raided by Brown, large part of their income (pensions & benefits) removed and branches franchised out to businesses who bled them dry, choked by the union. There's no other alternative now, no matter who is in government.

#12 romeplebian


Is there anything else that can be sold off ?
Yes the politicians - sorry that's already been done as most have already been purchased as directors , advisors or consultants . Perhaps they could sell their votes openly if they were to be privatised . That way they could ignore openly the wishes of the electorate instead of doing it surreptitiously as is now the case .

What do they teach people in schools nowadays? "Defenestration" is a term often used to indicate the unceremonious disposal of a person or persons from authority. The term was first used in relation to an incident in Prague in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration

Here's a potted history.

sinexus6
You seem to have a obsession with the word bottom and the product there of perhaps you should show your pupils just how inspired you are by showing them your post on the subject, that should enlighten them.

Watching this unravel from over here in Wales, it's like watching a former heavyweight boxer being slowly but smartly picked off by a younger, more agile and flamboyant opponent in front of an audience baying for the the final knockout.

As someone who's neutral on Westminster matters, it's plain to see that Brown's the Tory Party's star man at the moment. There's nothing he can do to save himself or his party from a bluewash in the next election.

It's like '97 all over again. The only question is 'How many consecutive elections will the Tories win on the back of this Labour shambles?'.

@37

I believe Baroness Uddin's housing arrangements have "got lost in the post"

Nick -- sort of related. Can you enlighten us on Gordon Brown's recent TV interview tantrums -- seems you were there. May explain some of his rather strange shifts and turns on policy of late.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1176735/Revealed-How-Gordon-Brown-threw-tantrum-TV-interview--soothed-Lord-Mandelson.html
"Following his final interview with the BBC's Nick Robinson, tetchy Mr Brown declined to pose for the customary 'reverse shots' showing him listening to Mr Robinson's questions. The Prime Minister left the room and met up with concerned Lord Mandelson."

This vote will be passed and is not a test of Gordon Browns leadership or lack of.

Parliament has no choice but to pass it as the decision has already been enacted in an EU directive. The vote is thus simply pantomine to pretend that Parliament has a role in legislation.

27 crowded island.
#we need a new Government with new ideas and a new Parliament with MPs and Ministers who cannot claim for patio heaters and bath plugs

And where do you propose we get one of them? certainly not from the Tory front bench,

39 jabber Jabber

Is there anything else that can be sold off ?

Wait until they privatise the army, or float the navy.

Further to my previous comment the relevant EC directive is: The Postal Services Directive 2002/39/EC. This reduces the amount of market that can be reserved for a national monopoly and hence implictly requires part privatisation at the very least.

Leadership is a quality that is measured by the number of followers. Authority is itself granted by a higher authority - in our democracy by the electorate of this country.

I don't see much evidence of either even before this vote.

the post office issue was mentioned on the politics show just now.
It also showed Cameron canvassing for "change" , David Davis said we need more cuts in services, to show the institutions we are serious about paying off the debt.
Why do we need to pander to the institutions ?
We did not get in this mess
If services are to be cut , everything to be sold off etc etc, then why do we need a government ? all it will mean is either Labour or the Tories or the Libs can fiddle with the smaller details , so why not get rid of the government, that would save a few quid , ask Charles to take over as head of state after all Cameron wants change

45 starquin10


Yes what you say is true - but I think we are watching something else at the moment, don't you?

well the tories would back the concept it was them that privatized bt from the post office thus loosing millions in revinue.
this issue has no affect on the labour leadership basicly becouse the knives are already out and the prime minister will fall to them as sure as the sun rises.
the sad thing is the PM has tried to bring about a good leadership but has been hobbled by supporters of his predicessor.
if the PM falls there will have to be a general election but looking at the parties today none of them are good enough to form a government.
our parlimentary system has fallen into self interest and greed thus it seems none are interested in the country just their own agendas.

I do wish people wouldn't compare Gordon Brown with John Major. Both are at the fag-end of a long period where their party's been in office. At least Major left the countries finances in fairly good condition after the ERM debacle. Gordon, on the other hand, has left us with debts that will take decades to pay off (and nothing to show for it except a bloated and inefficient public sector, plus miles of red tape).

John Major won a general election on his own merit and also stood up to his own party. Brown is too cowardly to say "back me or sack me" and of course he bottled that general election. He writes books on courage because he completely lacks any himself.

45. 48. starquin10
(Put more succinctly than my previous post...)

Nick, this isn't about Brown's leadership, neither party has a choice in the long run.
Or are you using this blog to get in a dig at GB after being on the receiving end?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"delminister wrote:
the sad thing is the PM has tried to bring about a good leadership but has been hobbled by supporters of his predicessor."

I don't think you can push all of the blame for Gordon's leadership problems onto the Blairites. Many of the current problems seem to be entirely of Gordon's own making.

He firstly got portrayed as a bottler because he refused to rule out a snap election until polls suggested a surge in Tory support - a mistake of his own making. Until that point Labour were on the "Brown Bounce"

More recently he didn't take action against Ministers who appear to have abused their expenses, would expelling them from the party (or even kicking them from the cabinate) have improved his appeal to the voters? No action taken makes him look weak - and his troubled attempt to clear up the expenses mess is only seen as a victory by the BBC (not even the Guardian defended his position!)

I think most of Brown's problems are as a result of his own failings. However, one problem not of his making is that the general public might be thinking that New Labour have just been in power for too long.

6 Romeplebian

# Is there anything else that can be sold off ?

Nah! Maggie sold it all years ago!

47 Strictly Pickled

I suppose if they sold off the air force it would be 'one flew over the cuckoo's nest'
Don't forget the PFI's we have with the MOD...
Realistically all the best family jewels have been sold now so we're just left with the bits they couldn't get rid of easily at a cut price to their 'friends' in the city . For the last thirty years bits of this country have been sold off so that we are probably now the only major country with no control over it's essential infrastructure.

45, starquin10 wrote:

"This vote will be passed and is not a test of Gordon Browns leadership or lack of.

Parliament has no choice but to pass it as the decision has already been enacted in an EU directive. The vote is thus simply pantomine to pretend that Parliament has a role in legislation."

Starquin10,

I thought the EU directive forced the opening to competition of postal markets. I didn't think it forced the sale (partial or whole) of government held postal organisations. I'm pretty sure that La Poste in France remains government controlled.

Lots of EU directives are ignored for years. The UK is rather too keen on believing that it should rush to apply the full "potential" of a directive. (Hence some of the extreme interpretations of Health & Safety regulations we put up with... Try and tell a Frenchman that he has to be trained to climb a ladder... Or can't put out bunting on market or "fete" days unless the attachments have been inspected...)

#23
"After what was spent on the banks a few more billion to modernise the post office (and that includes the pension system) will not be missed ... give me the job with the terms as above and I'll turn it round ... Give me a call the BBC has my number on file."

(a) No doubt this argument will be used by many. But after the squillions in debt this shower have run up, we have to be extremely strict with spending for a generation or two, and daren't waste a penny.

(b) After all the Big Brother laws passed by this shower, I'd say just about every government official already has your number on file.

One wonders haw many people he actually listens too?

Will he listen to the thousands (hopefully millions) who have signed the number 10 petition for him to resign.

(Note It took me 15 attempts over the weekend to get the site to send me the email so i could comnplete my signiture, but only one attempt for the petition asking him to ignore the requests to resign, which i didn't respond to but used to check is the site was sending emails after my 10th attampt to register for him to resign)

This is most definitely NOT off-topic, so please don't remove. First, I was delighted to see my old sparring partner, Grandantidote #18. Unlike certain people, who will remain unnamed, we do not censor points of view of which we do not agree. We use this forum to debate, which is the whole purpose of its existence. My comments have been routinely removed, but I have been trying to make sense of this confusion that is now this blog.
Now to the heart of this posting: the Government should not sell off or privatise, or whatever they call it the post offices, nor the Royal Mail. The post offices are national treasures, and if necessary should be legally declared as such! If the government must send out leaflets on basic hygiene, surely they should use the Royal Mail. Actually, they would do better issuing free packets of tissues, and fine people who cough or blow their noses in their hands or in the air a hefty on the spot fine.

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but why is it a problem if the government has to rely on the opposition to get their schemes through parliament? We've all known for years that the government is a lot closer ideologically to the Tory party than to many of their own backbenchers, so it's hardly telling us anything new.

Who cares what the final straw is.

JUst bring it on. The sooner we get rid of this useless excuse for a politician along with his "team" the better for all of us

Nick - I presume that you are referring to the Czech (or was it Hungarian) euphemism about defenestration - when people in custody "fell" from windows - all the more remarkable as these windows were normaly seaqled and almost impenetrable!!

So who will be pushing who out of the window?

Harman is a canny bird. Feign loyalty to the glorious leade whilst waiting for the inevitable Labour (crushing) defeat at the next General Election, and then coyly offer herself as a candidate who can heal internal rifts and bring Labour back into power.

#57 Grandantidote

I was under the impression that it was Brown who sold off our Gold reserves just when Gold was cheap!!

I don't expect this to be a vote that damages Brown in Parliamentary terms, however, within the Labour party he is clearly damaged goods already.

Perhaps if we could link the expenses of the PM to support within the country, then just maybe he might hear what is being said. Until then, we have the man who coined "I think it is right" ruling the roost until the real election comes along.

42 wrote:
"It's like '97 all over again. The only question is 'How many consecutive elections will the Tories win on the back of this Labour shambles?'."

I agree that politically at the moment it is like '97 all over again - we are just waiting for Labour to be massacred at the polls. However, in answer to your question, there is no answer. Brown and his Government are leaving a massive booby trap for the incoming Government in terms of unsustainable policies on public spending, Government borrowing and immigration. It is how a Cameron Government deals with those issues which will decide whether they get re-elected or not (and on how Labour manages its own defeat as well of course).

Jibber
"Realistically all the best family jewels have been sold now so we're just left with the bits they couldn't get rid of easily at a cut price to their 'friends' in the city . For the last thirty years bits of this country have been sold off so that we are probably now the only major country with no control over it's essential infrastructure."

Yes, that pretty much sums up the Thatcher years.

Nick - I for one support your use of the word "de-fenestrated". A very clear meaning - booted out - and anyone looking up the word is likely to come across historical precedents in the literal defenestrations of Prague.

In the second defenestration of Prague, the unfortunate evictees only survived after landing on a pile of manure... but in GB's case he seems to already be in the s***

Watching the 1979 election re-run on BBC Parliament, my biggest impression of that day was the grace and dignity with which Jim Callaghan accepted defeat. He, like Major, was a decent and honourable man who was let down by his own side, it must have been painful for him that day thinking about if he'd gone for it the previous October he would almost certainly have won. The comparison with Brown is too painful, Callaghan had no mandate from the people, but he had faced an open contest among Labour MP's against people such as Healey, Benn, Foot, Jenkins and Crossland and he had come out on top. Brown bullied and browbeat Labour into crowning him. Callaghan went into an election campaign 20 points behind but by force of personality he pulled Labour back into contention and the result was given the circumstances a decent one for Labour. There was no landslide and that was down to Callaghan's campaigning. Brown will be lucky if he can get within 100 seats of Callaghan's haul! I also doubt that he will be as dignified in defeat as Sunny Jim was.

On the Royal Mail issue, Brown is in a lose-lose position. If he backs down, he alienates Mandelson who will then turn around and de-fenestrate him. Forget about non-entities like the Millipedes, Harman, Blears and Straw, Mandy is the kingmaker, if he turns on Brown then he it's all over. I agree with the points made above and in The Times, the Tories will get the bill through second reading and so drive a wider wedge between Brown and his backbenchers and then at the report stage they will switch and vote against it. What do the LibDems and the SNP think of this bill? Would they be willing to join the Tories and Labour rebels in a grand coalition against the bill? It's interesting that among the Labour rebels is Jim McGovern who is facing a strong challenge from the SNP for Dundee West next time!

#39 jabber_jabber

Great idea, perhaps that's why Francis Maude hasn't been 'defenestrated' for being chairman of a company specialising in subprime loans that's now in liquidation?

Let's just flog-off parliament and stop pretending to be a democracy. The troops could then come home and stop spreading democracy.

43 StrongholdBarricades

I think there is a very good reason why Baroness Uddin has been ignored and if you think carefully about this - you will understand why it hasn't, unlike other 'expenses' leaks, been spread/splashed all over the red tops at least!

#42 mimosacymru- a very good question. - how many consecutive elections will the Tory's win on the back of this labour shambles?
and there lies the big problem within Westminster

an outdated parliament ,discredited politicians and discredited voting system, both how you get there and then how you vote once you are there.

first past the post will never be changed at Westminster as the Tory's and labour have far to much to lose,just look at the welsh assembly and the Scottish parliament, who'd have believed it ,the little people didn't vote the way the were supposed too.

drudging through the lobbies is one way the whips use to reduce dissent. don't know about wales but voting at the Scottish Parliament is done on the screen at your desk
i would prefer it if my MP and my MSP actually worked for my local community ,you know the people who gave them the job, as opposed to the big business's and the foreign governments that seem to take up all their time and all our money. Sid

#63 DisgustedOfMitcham2
Yes you've cracked it we have had a Tory government for the last 30 years . Only now do the Labour backbenchers realise it isn't the real Labour Party they are in and are beginning to revert to their former beliefs . All this has come too late to save another essential service that some people don't live within easy reach of . What some people forget is that Public Services are just that - services to the public , part of the infrastructure . In any civilised country this would also involve making those services available to all , no matter how remote or costly it may be - so there is a good chance that subsidies would be needed in that instance . Even with state run public services profitability is the mantra as can be seen with the closures of hundreds of post offices - scant regard being paid to the social consequences .

Putting the GB assassination or not issue aside this is a difficult decision. Once again I think this is a case of the chickens coming home to roost. The govn have penalised the Royal Mail so that it is having to make a loss on some operations and have not addressed the pension pot issues in the "good" times. Coupled with the EU directives this leaves little room for manoeuvre.

My personal view is that it should not be part- or fully privatized. It should be a state-run not-for-profit service. There is no reason why it cannot be modernized. Privatization is just a method of shifting the inevitable job cuts to the private sector - we should not be fooled.

So here is my conclusion - GB & Labour Gov you're wrong & Tories you're wrong. Not win-win for the Conservatives in my view.

14 SrongholdBarricades

You have just cleared up the reason for privatisation of the Post Office. I found it hard to understand why a Labour government should push through this issue

From your comments it now makes sense that they have messed it up so much it has become a huge liability that the country can no longer afford. Like everything else this government can never bring itself to tell the truth so we rely on comments from people like yourself that can make things appear much clearer.

Hearing Brown's speech this morning you would think that it was he who would be creating the thousands of new jobs this country will need. I'm afraid with his policies there will be very few new jobs for it is business and entrepreneurs that will have to create them. The time for this will only be after he's gone and we have a business friendly party in power.

Is this the BBC's way of building up to some great climax where Brown will emerge triumphant with an overwhelming vote of confidence from his MPs in the commons. Labour MPs , though of no particular use to the country do not suffer from an overdose of integrity either, and are certainly not going to risk an election they will lose by voting other than with Brown on anything he wants. The idea of Labour rebels voting against the government when to do so would bring it down, is not only unlikely but since it would mean a lot of snouts being pulled from the Westminster trough for the foreseeable future,highly improbable. Get real Mr Robinson.

Tests of leadership and authority Reminds me of a little ditty i once sang at school it goes like this Speed bonny boat like a bird on the wing on-ward the sailors cry, Carry the cad that thought he was king backover the sea to sky What leadership call a general election.

Nick

I know it's old news from the weekend but why isn't the BBC reporting the £100,000 claimed by Baroness Uddin? It's in the main broadsheets but nothing here. Just wondered if you'd missed it or if you were waiting for the independent enquiry or something?

jabber_jabber 74

Yes you've cracked it we have had a Tory government for the last 30 years . Only now do the Labour backbenchers realise it isn't the real Labour Party they are in and are beginning to revert to their former beliefs
------------------------------------------------------

Do you mean to say it has taken Labour backbenchers 12 years to realise they are not working for the Labour Party and have in fact been voting and passing policy without them realising they are in the wrong party.

Bit slow on the uptake then no wonder we are in the mess we are.

79 gthebounceranddavincimaster

I don't think how ever many times you/we mention this subject that it will get anywhere. No one is going light years near this.

4. StrictlyPickled

"Incidentally, I do not believe that Gordon Brown is about to be de-fenestrated for reasons I'll spell out later."

This is the intelligent journalist's way of saying "having his windows kikked in."

I think it will suit we Conservatives for Brown to stay. With such a lame duck PM, or should I say president, things can only get worse.

To my mind only two things can happen - Brown stays and guarantees a Conservative landslide, or he goes and Johnson or Harperson becomes leader and under public pressure an election is called. I'm sure that no-one, even Nick, would argue that a second un-elected PM could serve in one term.

PS I loved the way that Blears parodied Margaret Thatcher with "YouTube if you want to ...." Things must be really desperate. Added to that, it only accentuated the faux pas that Blears made.

Quite pathetic.

18. grandantidote

I'm guessing here, but I expect someone looked at the cost of moderating blogs from old farts who hang around in the wilderness arguing over unconnected issues for weeks and said .. sod that!

Brown won't be thrown out of office by his own party because not one of them wants to take on the mess he's created.

They're all making the right noises but each one of them knows he will be there until the end because nobody wants the job.

They are now playing to the electorate and hoping by showing a little bit of dissent they will be voted in and still have a nice little job in opposition. A form of semi-retirement really but with a nice full time salary and index linked pension.

No matter that the country will deteriorate further with Brown at the helm for it won't be their responsibility to sort it out.

Playing for time is what they're doing but they should not take the voters for mugs.

#77 kaybraes

Yes the trough tends to keep the members in line - so much so that as you say a vote against is a vote to lose ones place there . The whipping system allied to the trough syndrome ensures that there can never be a truly democratic vote in the house based on a meaningful debate , and this will be another example of it . Perhaps wholesale reform of the HofC and not just the expenses is required , modernisation ( at least 20th century) is needed but then turkeys , ballot and Christmas comes to mind.

@72 Japanbytes

A hint of legalities?

I hope that they use a reputable courier for the documents.

31. Wee-Scamp

They've already cut the Post Bus service which provided a transport life line to some very remote communities.


Thank god for that, who voted for the post office to run a bus service.

Apart from us idiots who r still working and paying taxes WHO cares what the sleaze party or its Clown leader??? does. Roll on 2010 and utter humiliation for them and their party of sleaze, sleaze, and more SLEAZE.

None of them want the job because they all know what is going to happen. Come next election, whoever in is charge of Labour will have to quite when they get badly defeated in the polls. It is obvious to all of them (Brown included) that Labour are going to be well and truly defeated come next election. So all these aspiring leaders can take over now and get the PM job for a few months before losing the election big time, or wait a few months and then, without any plotting or scheming take over once Brown steps down. That way they might not be PM immediately but, the economy is such a mess, whoever takes over in a year will not achieve much so probably only gets 5 years and it will be a swap back to Labour and whoever takes over gets to be PM them

So its leader now before stepping down as a failure within 12 months OR, wait for a few months and get to be leader (not PM) but to hold the position with a reasonable chance of getting to be PM in 5 years. They are not stupid and do not want to carry the blame for Browns mess in the next election.

79. gthebounceranddavincimaster


Stories of Labour sleaze and squander are just not news, they are the norm and to be expected daily on all other news sites.

Oddly though I havent seen anything today.

it is said that ' the eyes are the windows on the soul ' , judging by the glazed looks during P/M.'s question time I think that defenestration is sweeping through the house like swine flu . By the way the mail man hasn't delivered my swine flu pamphlet yet.

This is a bad idea. To modernize the PO and keep it in the public domain is the way forward for this most British of institutions. To sell another of our institutions off to a possible foreign buyer is clearly showing us Gordon Brown and the rest of his cronies that the country is starved of cash, and they need to raise money by whatever means they have a their disposal. The tories have put themselves in a win-win situation, because they are fully aware, like most of the country, that the prime minister is losing his authority and even his grip on the realities around him. All they have to do is keep embarrassing him in the house on any vote that may arise, then GB's own party will get shot of him, before the next election. Brown can no longer really depend on his cabinet defending him as vociferously as he might have hoped, because they too can see the liability he is becoming. Selling the Post Office instead of modernizing it, should be the only option on the table, selling it off will be the death knell of Labour.
When parties are in office for too long and run out of ideas quickly, is this an argument for limiting the terms in office by one leader or party?

#61 wombateye wrote:

"Will he listen to the thousands (hopefully millions) who have signed the number 10 petition for him to resign.

(Note It took me 15 attempts over the weekend to get the site to send me the email so i could comnplete my signiture, but only one attempt for the petition asking him to ignore the requests to resign, which i didn't respond to but used to check is the site was sending emails after my 10th attampt to register for him to resign)"

I had similar problems with getting the required email from No 10 to validate my signature. It came after several attempts and a number of hours had elapsed. Strange isn't it?

I actually emailed No 10 to complain,(that was 30 April), but have had no reply to date.

Equally strange that the marked voting register at the Glenrothes by-election has been lost, after an unprecedented rise in the number of postal votes.

The sooner McBroon is 'de-fenestrated' the better for us all, but its with dismay that I forsee a Cameron-led government.

Better would be to scrap the entire system. Thankfully we in Wales, and the Scots, can go for self-determination and be rid of the entire corrupt and self-serving system that Westminster has become.

If the Conservatives believe that the Government proposal is the right thing to do, they should say so and vote accordingly. What is the point of their accusing Brown of favouring political expediency over the best interests of the country if they then do the same thing themselves ?

In fact, if they believe the Government should go further on this issue, they should table an amendment based on their own proposals and, assuming they lose, make it clear that they are voting for the Government proposal because it is a step in the right direction.

I'm not sure that the proposed changes are the right way to go and I think they will be unpopular in the country but if the Government and Opposition front bench believe so, then let them show some leadership and proceed accordingly. That should be the primary issue, with percieved party political advantage relegated to a secondary consideration.

On that score, probably Brown is in a no win situation. This is partly because of a variation on the old "shoot the messenger" theme. We are reaching the stage where, if Brown is the messenger, the message is shot. Brown's judgment and motivations are debased currencies and it's tough to trade in a debased currency.

I don't know about Brown being defenestrated, but if he was a pair of curtains then I'm sure Mr Msandelson would tell him to "pull himself together!"





(c) Tommy Cooper, A.D 1960.

#15 Mark_WE

"loyal deputy" Harriet Harman: My guess is that he used the quotation marks because he was quoting Harman."

I for one am heartily sick of the BBC using quotation marks without making it clear if they are being ironic (i.e. implying doubt), quoting verbatim what someone said, or paraphrasing how a person described themselves.

This ambiguity forces all of us - including you - to "guess", which at the very least is extremely poor journalism.

If they are quoting or paraphrasing Harman then it's easy to make that clear by writing: "Harriet Harman, who insists she is Brown's loyal deputy...".

57. At 1:11pm on 05 May 2009, grandantidote wrote:
6 Romeplebian

# Is there anything else that can be sold off ?

Nah! Maggie sold it all years ago!

===

Not quite! Mr Darling is going to be quite busy on ebay, it seems!

"THE government is pressing ahead with plans to sell a string of state-owned organisations as part of a privatisation drive to add £35 billion to the dwindling public purse.

The chancellor, Alistair Darling, has appointed Rothschild to prepare the sale of the Royal Mint. Darling has also hired the Deloitte accountancy firm to explore a potential sale of the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre in central London.

Bankers expect Ordnance Survey, Britains national mapping agency, to be the next asset to be groomed for privatisation. Some 10 state-owned companies are in the frame, including the Covent Garden Market Authority and the Met Office. The canal-side property of British Waterways could also go.

The moves follow the sale of the governments stake in British Energy last year and attempts to find buyers for Channel 4 and a 33% stake in Royal Mail."

68. At 1:32pm on 05 May 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
Jibber
"Realistically all the best family jewels have been sold now so we're just left with the bits they couldn't get rid of easily at a cut price to their 'friends' in the city . For the last thirty years bits of this country have been sold off so that we are probably now the only major country with no control over it's essential infrastructure."

Yes, that pretty much sums up the Thatcher years.

===

And the Blair/ Brown years!

"THE government is pressing ahead with plans to sell a string of state-owned organisations as part of a privatisation drive to add £35 billion to the dwindling public purse.

The chancellor, Alistair Darling, has appointed Rothschild to prepare the sale of the Royal Mint. Darling has also hired the Deloitte accountancy firm to explore a potential sale of the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre in central London.

Bankers expect Ordnance Survey, Britains national mapping agency, to be the next asset to be groomed for privatisation. Some 10 state-owned companies are in the frame, including the Covent Garden Market Authority and the Met Office. The canal-side property of British Waterways could also go.

The moves follow the sale of the governments stake in British Energy last year and attempts to find buyers for Channel 4 and a 33% stake in Royal Mail."

Does Brown understand what "defenestrated" would actually mean?

In fact if he was shown the door would he have the manners to gently close it behind him?

Jacqui Smith has just put the boot into poor old Gordon

She said he was "right" for the country and said she expected him to remain PM until - and after - the next election.

This, from a woman who is completely incapable of reading the runes, on top of having a lack of judgement in character, strategy, morales, and gauging what people actually want.

She has made it public that she knew what "right" was!

As for the next election with a majority of fewer than 3,000 she need not worry about the next election, the job queue may be more befitting.

Nice Kiss of Death Jacqui!