Political game changer

On your bike tebbit is slow of the mark, I'll be protest voting and have been disussion this with friends for months

A difficult one this, I'd vote Tory in the general election but I don't really want to remain in the EU, but would prefer trading partner status.

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If the grubby business of MPs expenses had not come out, a Tory whitewash, perhaps with a little help from the Lib-Dems would have been the inevitable outcome at the forthcoming elections. This would only have served to cause Labour to dig in further and guarantee them hanging grimly on to office for as long as the law allows. At least if the electorate turn to the fringe parties in numbers as Norman Tebbit suggests, the pressure for a general election this year and not the next would become irresistible. God knows we need one.

Cameron is indeed "searching ...for a way to discipline some in his own party for their expenses abuse" but let's be fair here, so is Brown.

Today the race is on to find a golden 'expenses' bullet to break out of the squalid mess and a chance for Brown and Cameron to grasp the expenses nettle and deal with it.

The alternative is to let the whole sorry mess rot and fester away and drag any dignity parliament has left down with it. 

It is that which may just stop the June 4 English local and Euro elections turning into an anti-politician shambles and a way in for extremists.

Whoever finds that golden bullet could capture the political high ground and come out of it with some shred of dignity. I think Brown's bullet has his name on it. We shall see.

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Tebbit is correct in what he says, the political parties need the electorate's size 9 driven up their backsides. A big protest vote in the Euros is probably the only way to achieve that. As Guido pointed out on his blog earlier, Tebbit was very clear to say that people should not vote BNP.

There is a nightmare scenario for Labour and that is if they don't win a single MEP in the West or East Midlands and the BNP win one in the North West.

If that happens expect Gordon to be gone within a week!

Electoral meltdown for Labour in the Midlands and North West will see the Labour MP's in that area acting like headless chickens and demanding that Gordon goes.

I was going to anyway. Glad Norm agrees with me.

The Political Game is up.

We need dissolution of Parliament and a general election.
If we dont see a clear break with what has happened then MPs will never get any credibility back.

On the one hand Tebbit is a busted flush as yee-hah economics of Labour and the Tories started with his ex-colleagues.

On the other he did at least say "Don't vote BNP".

A better balanced approach would have been vote Lib Dem and show that failing parties can be replaced - with difficulty - even with a first past the post system.

Would they be claiming on moats and swimming pools then?

Regarding the issue of what Cameron can do. For these claims the most he can do is seek that the MP's apologise and repay the money, he can then also make it clear to his MP's that anymore outrageous claims will result in the whip being withdrawn. He then needs to come out clearly and say that he wants full reform of the system. There's no political capital to be made from this only damage limitation. Will that work? Who knows. You have to feel for him, 4 years work making the Tories electable again and then just as he begins to look unstoppable, a bunch of freeloaders undo all his efforts! Looking at some of the angry comments on Conservative Home since last night I can expect that most of this bunch will be facing some very angry constituency meetings shortly!

Notice how most of the Lib Dems have run for cover today, that's because they're up next! I don't think Clegg's poll bounce will be around much longer!

Thatcher's right hand going against the Conservatives as a whole on a point of principle? Surely this will finally drive the seriousness of the situation through Gorbal Mick's thick cranium. Actually I am not sure even this is enough. The man is even more oblivious than Gordon.

Ah ha, it was the BNP yesterday and today we've got Norman Tebbit, not that I'm making any connection of course.

Whether he was aware of this sort of thing in his day I don't know although it was the Thatcher government that brought in this system of allowances as if no one knew.

Anyway, he's just using expenses to rally people to one of his pet subjects.... euroscepticism. It's just synical opportunism and he should be sanctioned by his party.

Is this blog by Nick not just a teensie - weensie bit biased? Not about Norman Tebbit - his opposition to things European is no great secret and it probably reflects the views of much of the electorate; not about UKIP's misfortunes in having persons of dubious probity elected as MEPs; they did wrong and have been dealt with accordingly; not about David Cameron, who has professed that he will take action although I have to admit he may find it hard to do anything sufficiently robust to regain the confidence of the electorate. My concern is that there is no comment about the inescapable fact that while Cabinet Ministers are no less involved in the recent revelations than anyone else there has been a deafening silence from Gordon Brown about remedial action.

Even his apology yesterday was less then fulsome; had he not made it he would have had the unfortunate distinction of being the only (major) party leader not to issue one. I would have hoped that any comment on the attitudes demonstrated by various parties or individuals would have included an observation that the Labour Party and its leader appear to be happy to leave miscreant Cabinet Ministers in post with no evidence of any reprimand anywhere. "We followed the rules"; so that's all right then. At the risk of repeating myself; where is a comment about Gordon Brown's apparent lack of action? This blog gives the government too easy a ride.

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

#7 would Gordo then

call the election himself to spit his own backbenchs
1) therefore turkeys vote for christmas therefore getting one in last June early July.

walks away and ????? gets after a selction process the job elction when ??? October?

Someone might be the shortest PM ever and leader of Zanu-labour. As surely they could not run until June-2010. Who would stand under that scenario. See the chickens run then and Gordo is back in as know one wants the job.

We just carry on until gordo makes the decision to call an election at the last moment

SO the Euro election have become a Election to decide when the next election is going to be. Well get a whole year of electionering at this rate. Which will prob annoy people even more.

Any other scenario's and what are the odd's

Well would you credit it?! Holyrood is now leading the way on expenses and accountability. Now which is the diddy parliament?

I actually believe that Tebbit said the Euro elections were a sideshow

In local politics he said vote to your normal parties

He said that this protest message would send a strong message to Parliament for urgent reform

Since no one has yet canvassed my vote at any level it will be difficult to make the choice, apart from the "anything but Labour" option

I hate to say it but Stormin' Norman is right. If we vote for the main parties on June 4th they'll be in no hurry to remove their noses from the Westminster trough. Same with UKIP in Brussels.

As a Euro-realist I'm in a difficult position - abstain or hold my nose and vote BNP.

Nick,

Someone else at odds with your understanding too

https://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2009/05/jonathan-isaby-writes-on-conservative-home-that-david-cameron-has-no-alternative-but-to-withdraw-the-tory-whip-from-lord-tebb.html

Tebbit has simply voiced his anger

Cameron can use the incident to show he believes no anger is too extreme. And he should say he will be on the side of those who show anger, rather than those who caused it.

There is a moment for a formal adherence to rules. This isn't it.

Norm is partly Right, but it should be ONCE A BOYCOTT ALWAYS A BOYCOTT of the Big 3 Parties.
For at lease the total offering makes more sense.

If we thought that any of the main parties were listening to us, we'd vote for one of them and we wouldn't even be thinking about UKIP. But the big boys are simply not listening. Otherwise we'd have had a referendum on the vile European Constitution / Lisbon Treaty. No matter how hard the French, Dutch, and Irish try to kick these instruments into the long grass, they just keep coming back. If the pragmatic Norwegians and Swiss can make a reasonable fist of living side-by-side with the United States of Europe, why can't we? Neither country may have the best economic model in the world but I venture to suggest that they are not doing too badly in the current gloom. I've just got back from Stavanger and to be honest things seemed a whole lot healthier up there than back here in Blighty.

Congratulations Nick,on today's daily politics show you stated that the allowances paid out were within the rules.Obviously your interpretation of the rules is the same as the fees office and anything is claimable.Somebody outside of the common's clique would probably have a harder look at the rules and come to a different conclusion.

Outsource Parliament! Think of the savings!

Why can't the police be called in over these claims? I thought that the rules said that claims had to be necessary for the MPs to do their job. Quite obviously these are not so they have broken the rules and claimed money by deception.

Norm. has no need to tell me, Lib/Lab/Con, are all following their own agenda, the public are not included, as usual.
I wait with bated breath for the MEP's expences.
Even if they are kept hidden until after the EU elections we can guess the reason behind it.
We must show theese parties we mean business, This election can become the referrundum we never had.

I may not like Tebbitt but he may have a point. If you think MP's expenses are extravagant, they are pennies compared to the lavish lifestyles of MEPs, also funded by us.

PAXO. WHATEVER NEXT. TURKEYS VOTING FOR CHRISTMAS?????

What does it take to get the Serious Fraud Squad to start an investigation into the mis-appropriation of public money?

If all these so-called politicians are so concerned about us voting for the BNP, then why have they singularly failed to cleanup Westminster, reform the House of Lords, reform our voting system, etc....

All they've done is line their own pockets and feather their nests at our expense, whilst they sell access and questions for cash, take us into illegal wars, and ruin our economy.

I'm sorry, the BNP has its faults, but at least it will stick up for those of us in the majority here (if the BBC has forgotten, that is English people in England).

If they don't want the BNP to win, they should show some more focus on improving our politics, rather than the usual "but they're racists" mantra.

They may well be, but at least they're not venal, corrupt, incompetent and part of an elite that conspires to steal true democracy from us.

They've got my (albeit protest) vote.

#14, agrees but this is the BBC, TASS/PRAVDA to others. As they tories have stated they are going to cut the licence fee if they get in. It will be no supprise that the BBC is silient on many issues or choices to present at different angle on the topic to draw fire away from the REAL issues

This goes back to Peter Hitchins arguement on BBC R4 at 9am yesterday that the "media" are also part of the problem. They always have a eye on their future employement prospects and stories so present actually what is most benificial to themselves not the public at large. Although the BBC is paid for by us.

Dear old Norman; you can't help liking the mischievous old son of a cyclist.

He is only telling the electorate to use their franchise at the European elections to express their unhappiness with the main parties. Both he and we know the European elections mean absolutely nothing other than the meaning the national parties ascribe to them as the Commission does what it wants anyway.

With regard to the financial indiscretions of former UKIP members of the European Parliament one can only wonder at how any of us simple souls would react if given a free ticket to the Brussels chocolate factory. I will still vote UKIP as usual at the European elections not because I agree with them but because with any luck they will induce a constitutional crisis within the EU as the EU is never going to reform otherwise. I think this is known as tactical voting.

It is easy for the political professionals to slag-off the candidates of small parties because they are just the little people who believe in democracy rather than the slick, cynical PR-infested major parties who are only interested in keeping the taxpayer funded gravy train on the rails.

Talking about the little parties I always enjoyed the late Lieutenant-Commander Bill Bokes, the Air Road Safety White Resident candidate who contested by-elections for about twenty years into the early Seventies. He was completely barking but added a certain tincture to our lives when the world was in black and white. Come to think of it he rode a bike as well. Was he Norman's Dad?

Nick

You wrote:

no-one has yet suggested any breach of Parliamentary rules let alone the law.

What??

The rules state that claims can only be for expenses that are "wholly, exclusively and necessarily" incurred in performing their parliamentary duties. The MP's sign their claims confirming that this is the case.

It is also this 'requirement' that makes the expenses tax-free.

The rules have been completely ignored, and the law broken in relation to tax, and as 'Fraud by false representation'.

I believe the police have already received complaints about six MPs.

Tebbitt has always been outspoken. I think he's wrong to try and push people to vote for "non-core" parties (although I've voted for some independents along the way).

Far better to flay the idiots who believed that Parliament (tax-payers) should pay for the cleaning of a moat, skimming over artexed ceilings, patio heaters or chandeliers. And the bigger idiots who approved such payments.

There should be an in-depth audit by HMRC's most ferocious Tax Inspectors and a couple of tax lawyers, so every pound paid for expenses is judged against the criteria as to whether they are "necessarily incurred to support work as an MP".

The Speaker may be genuinely concerned about certain private details of MPs being available to the press. But he gives the impression that he would have been happy to suppress any information about "house flipping" which has been widely abused by MPs.

I see no justification for claiming that the administration of allowances has been well - and sensibly - managed. (Yet Labour apparently sent an e-mail to their poor souls saying they done nothing wrong.)

The selection of candidates should be firmly in the hands of local constituency members. Any central organisation should only have the right to challenge the selection of candidates if they appear to be genuinely tainted (some legal or economic percularities, for example).

Ed Balls, Minister for Children, Schools and Families, claims his first home is in West Yorkshire, so we pay for his London home. Just how is it that, if his children's main home is in Yorkshire, they were accepted to attend schools in London? That seems like an odd cachement area...

The "rules" aren't rules - they are guidelines, administered by a weak bunch and overseen by a Speaker from the "entitlements" school of thinking.

Vote whichever way your conscience / consideration suggests. But start selecting Parliamentary candidates with an individual strength, not someone who will run with the pack.

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Maybe that why Gordo has been banging on about banker greed, he new what
was coming with Cabinet MP's expenses.

Hazel Blears on the news in the leather gear about to jump on said motorcycle , now I have nothing against Ducati's would rather like one myself 750SS though. What about a Triumph made not far from here home and are really good, where is the support for British industry. Mr Tata is correct. There are the events around LDV and the military contract that went to Austria, for euro reasons not what was best for Britians national interest. France certainly follows a best for france approach whatever they say in public

Euro election should be on euro issues too so that leaves a choice Im wavering BNP or UKIP ?

"#29. At 12:46pm on 12 May 2009, earthAtone wrote:
What does it take to get the Serious Fraud Squad to start an investigation into the mis-appropriation of public money?"

If you a civil servent probably taking the odd pen home, if your an MP you would probably have to steel the crown jewells

I've always rejected the notion of protest voting and see no reason to change now. Vote for the party that's closer to your ideals, or you think is the most competent, or for some other positive reason, but just voting for a party as a protest is an act of cynicism and is likely to make the political system worse.

People are of course correct to be angry about MPs expenses, but there are more important issues. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but the European elections should be mainly fought over European policy.

There's also something unedifying about some of the more extreme bursts of moral indignation coming from some contributors to this site. Som einformation has been inaccurate. And because of the way the information has come into the public domain we don't know how many MPs are basically clean. Sleaze sells newspapers.

It's a question of balance. Call in the Inland Revenue to tax some of the expenses as benefits-in-kind. Shame the worst offenders, and demand excessive expenses are repaid. Withdraw the whip, and deselect, the worst offenders, or those MPs who refuse. Make a note of how many MPs are honest. Finally, of course, reform the system.

Having been highly critical of her before I'm please to see that Labour MP Margaret Moran has agreed to pay back the £20,000 used to maintain her third home. I hope more MPs will be prepared to do this. There is still a chance for the political parties to demonstrate both that the system can be changed, and that individual MPs will not be allowed to keep any ill-gotten gains (or if they do their political careers will be over). Above all, maintain a sense of balance.

As MEPs are up to the same expenses scams as our own MPs (except you can add another '0' onto the sums claimed)it is only common sense not to vote for one of the major parties in the EU elections - you choose which one.
Tebbit's suggestion that this will 'shake up' the major parties has some merit, but, unless they are completely clueless, I suspect the party leaders are aware of the public's feelings already.
The answer to our Parliament's problems lies within the parties themselves. The main culprits must be removed. Cameron is on the right track by talking of disciplinary action and repayment of all dubious expense claims. The other leaders need to be taking similar action.
HMRC and the Fraud Squad have certainly got to, at least, look into some of the claims already made - even if prosecutions don't follow.
When it comes to the General Election, the selection of candidates must be made on the understanding that anyone who gets elected is not about to join a 'gravy train'. This will almost certainly lead to a reduction in the numbers offering themselves for selection.

The expenses saga is really damaging the term 'honourable gentlemen'

Nick i need your advice. I want to be an MP, i want to be that man fighting for my people in parliament, i want to be respected in this profession. I think it would be a wonderful job.

But i am finding it hard to show them any respect. Yes MP'S do fantastic work every day, but this saga is just too far. I am at university, and it is hard to live with a budget, and looking at these MP'S im very disappointed. I want to do good for this country but there are also other ways. I am confused

Just looking at On This Day and saw that it is 15 years today from John Smith died. The contrast between Smith, a conviction politician of honour and integrity with a strong sense of right and wrong and freeloaders like Prescott, Follett, Moran, Hogg, Spicer and Haselhurst is just too painful to dwell on!

....no-one has yet suggested any breach of Parliamentary rules let alone the law...... I really cant believe you wrote that nick...does the BBC collusion with the labour party know no bounds? Read your last blog where someone published the green book rules......

...Page 7 States

1) Claims should be above reproach and must reflect actual usage of the resources being claimed.

2) Claims must only be made for expenditure that it was necessary for a Member to incur to ensure that he or she could properly perform his or her parliamentary duties.

3) Allowances are reimbursed only for the purpose of a Member
carrying out his or her parliamentary duties. Claims cannot
relate to party political activity of any sort, nor must any claim
provide a benefit to a party political organisation.

4) Members must ensure that claims do not give rise to, or give
the appearance of giving rise to, an improper personal financial
benefit to themselves or anyone else.

Can you now defend claims for cleaners, toilet seats, flipping second homes, paying for dry rot in a third home, etc etc ... Come on Nick do your job ....it is not your job to defend them it is your job to hold them to account on our behalf.....

Is this the same Tebbit that was up to his neck in the privatization programme in the 80s. A lot of people believe that tax payers were effectively robbed of public assets during that period, assets that found there way into the pockets of a number of dubious characters, including the Russian mafia.
How many ex Tory ministers made fortunes by sitting on the boards of companies that they privatitized? The ex trade unionist and Thatcherite favourite, the Honourable Lord, is probably the best person to answer the question.

Tebbit is a dinosaur who should be consigned to the scrap heap.

British politics does not need his kind of meddling - he has had his day and so it is time to step aside and let the next generation lead (and I am one of those much closer to Tebbit's age than Cameron's).

There is no sadder sight than some old has-been bemoaning the passage of the good old days.

Get Nu-Labour (Gordon Brown/Peter Mandelson) out of power and then out of office. Then let the new government sort out the mess. Inviting UKIP to be the leading UK party in Europe will only severely compound our problems. Voting for UKIP is like putting the inmates in charge of the mad-house.

Nick

I listened to your comments and those of Sir Stuart Bell on Wato.
Making the allowances part of salary would be great..... for the politicians. They already have a solid gold pension scheme, uplifting the allowances into salary would increase that cost substantially and more importantly provide a huge front level loading to cover previous years.

No, don't do that, just make all expenses and allowances as per Inland Revenue criteria and publish the bills on the MP's website for Public Audit. If there is a public invitation to dig we would they have Very Right Honourable MP's.

There is, of course, an alternative to tactical voting to show your anger at the situation.

If everyone who didn't normally vote (the many) actually got off their arses and walked the short distance to the polling stations and voted for 'None Of The Above' this would send the clearest message to politicians of all parties that the electorate is p****ed off!

Would this be the same Norman Tebbit that picked up a tranche of lucrative directorships on leaving the Government including one at BT, which company he had recently privatised?
https://www.spinwatch.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=248
I do not think 'Lord' Tebbit is in any position to give lectures on financial probity.

Jim T

"The expenses saga is turning out to be a political game changer."

And so it should.

For years and years MPs have failed to come to terms with the implications and possible consequences of their remuneration and the reimbursement of their expenses.

And if we end up, after the next election, with a house full of every weird and odd minority party to be found, then that will be the direct result of MPs not taking neither their responsibilities nor the notion of accountability seriously.

Is it not ironic that if such an issue was discovered in some part of the civil service, MPs would be screaming - but where's the accountability? Who was responsible for this?

Well, year after year, MPs have voted for generous wage increments and continued to claim their interestingly broad range of expenses and now the pidgeon has come home to roost.

sadly his ideas are extreem and nuts.
any anti party vote will be showing those in westminster they have had their cake and now the gravy train has hit the sidings, shape up or ship out.

#34 surely Ed Balls is in a lot of trouble then, did not a council spy on a family , sothhampton area , to check catchement area's etc. One rule of them an other for us. A where does Eyvette Copper live, are the they part of the LATS system? where is the reporting on that, as lawnmover and light bulbs is chicken feed compared to that.

Mr Ed Balls should have gone over the baby P fiasco.

Tebbit is quite unbeleivable, in office he creates the myth of the "nasty" Tory party, he undermines the Major government when it was crying out for unity and now with the party poised to make it's biggest electoral progression in 17 years he pitches in with this nonsense. The natural reaction would be to kick him out of the party but that would only give further publicity to this irrelevant relic of the 80's.

They are all rubbish! Protest votes for BNP or whoever are a waste of time. They are all feathered with the same brush of inefficiency and corruption. In 1939 there was a useless government and in 1914 a government more concerned with profits for greedy manufacturers, and now we are faced with a useless government that is greedy, not for profiteers, but for its own self. Must we experience a culling, a Third World War to find a true leader of an honest government?

Norman Tebbit is way past his sell-by date.... is he the best the BBC could do? Silly, resentful old man!

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The only extraordinary thing about Tebbit's comments is that you find them so extraordinary. The old war horse has been at this kind of thing for nigh on fifteen years. Where's the news?! Plus, I'm not sure "don't vote for the big parties" quite gets him far enough - its tantamount to saying don't vote Tory, so they shd have the guts to chuck him out.
By the way, fancy being as honest as your colleague on the News Channel and telling us how much you earn? Seeing as we effectively pay your salary (and don't have an option not to), I reckon you shd publish your expenses too. Who have you wined and dined recently on the licence payers's expense?
No, didn't think you would...

I certainly do not intend to vote for any party that allows Europe to dictate to Britain what it can and cannot do. Sadly our politicians do not represent the views of the people where Europe is concerned otherwise a free vote on our remaining within what is fast becoming a federal state would be given to the British electorate. As far as the row over MP's expences is concerned, Gordon Brown could solve the whole problem overnight, by allowing the people to express their displeasure at a general election. Sadly he lacks both the courage and the integrity to do this, and is intent on hanging on to power until he is dragged kicking and screaming out of Downing street.

Why do you interpret Tebbits comment as vote for UKIP, they've had their fair share of expenses scandals too - surely it could equally well be a call for people to vote for the BNP.

OK, it could also apply to the Greens, but somehow I'm pretty sure Tebbit didn't mean them !

The European elections are a shambles anyway - it doesn't matter what party gets however many MEP's, they can't and don't affect EU policy

The EU is too large a juggernaut to be directed by small voices. If people are angry at UK MP's expenses then for goodness sakes don't show them what they spend as MEP's !

Business takes me to Brussels quite a bit and the phrase 'gravy train' does not come close to it. The EU parliament has NEVER had it's accounts signed off in it's history. Not one firm of accountants will put it's name to the books (and most of these were happy to sign off the books of banks that later collapsed) and I can see their point

For the information of people wanting HMRC to investigate MP's with dodgy expense claims: Give up, the law was changed in 2003 (I think....) which made MP's expenses exempt from tax liability. They cannot be got at this way

I don't believe in protest votes. Vote for your convictions, they still count for something - a protest vote counts for nothing and is counter productive in the long run. If you are annoyed at your MP then write to them and moan, this will be far more annoying to them than a weak protest vote in a parliament we are so detached from

Our voice only counts in the UK, not in the EU......

Listening to what the Tory MPs grabbed at the expense of the poor tax payers, there is only one mitigating excuse. Their choice of expenses, pianos, porticos, etc. were at a more aesthetic level than the dreadful 'Tudor' beams of Prescott and the unmentionable tampons of a male MP.

Why not an expenses system based on a commercial model - namely

A daily allowance for accomodation (pegged at the price of a room in a 3 star hotel) which can only be claimed if the "honourable" member stays overnight and can prove evidence of his stay.

In addition the honourable member should be allowed a per diem rate for food (on the basis that he/she would be expected to pay for food out her salary - but there may be additional expenditure because of economy of scale (buying ingedients for 1 as opposed to a family) or because they do not have facilties to prepare the food and so have to eat out). This would only be paid to members who claimed accomodation allowance.

MPs need to get real!! There are hundreds of thousands of workers in Britain who work away from home during the week - but do not have the benefoit of long holidays!!

Lord Foulkes has done himself and his cronies no good this morning in challenging a journalist what her salary may be. He seemed in my understanding to be saying MPs should get these expenses because of their "low" pay. The issue is not over salary and expenses but over what is claimed is required to be an MP, the public would have no problem with an MP claiming expenses if it was work related travel, a business meeting in a typical restaurant, ink jet cartridges,.... but for cutting the grass, weekly shopping, sky subscription (why not give them each a freeview box, they only cost £15 inc P&P off the internet), etc. I agree that not all the things on some of the receipts were claimed for and shame on the telegraph for reporting that they were, however it is the things that were claimed for that take the biscuit... including biscuits. My work provides me with a home to work in a particular location but the tax man says I must furnish it myself. I must pay for all my own phone calls and my share of line rental, I must not claim for a cleaner, but can get tax relief on the cleaning of the room I use as my office (not the whole building). I hope all the expenses received at the commons have been taxed at (at least) 40% and that HMRC are waiting for the full list to be out so that they can do some auditing of MP's annual returns!

Who cares? Corrupt MP's and higher unemployment don't matter as the stock market is rising and house prices are going up. We can all relax as we have all been saved. Its time to enjoy the hot summer we are promised.

Now... where's my pension statement gone ...

;-)

And what, pray tell, Mr Tebbit shall the electorate be left with after the protest vote? A rag bag contingent of extremists from every hue without a big enough power base to stop euro legislation that may be unwelcome for the UK. Nick why give the Oxygen of Publicity to a has been of a bygone era?. The MP's of Tebbits era were no more above sleaze than this current lot. Its no use clamouring for a G.E. just to vote in another lot that can find more imaginative ways to milk the public purse. We need to change the way our democracy works first; a major problem is people treat Politics as a Career rather than an altruistic public service. We need to limit MP's to 1 or 2 terms at the most so we can limit any damage done by the freeloaders/incompetents

Protest voting is a complete waste of a vote... there again, voting for anything to do with Europe is a complete waste of energy. You just can't win!

UKIP candidates facing the wrath of the law? Well what about the Labour members who fiddled the postal ballots in Birmingham?
What about the box that was fiddled with for the candidature election of Gould's daughter?
The more you look at it, we have a whole load of free loading corrupt politicians all round!

Vive la revolution!

I would have hoped that voters will look very carefully at the 'expenses' their local MP has claimed and then make up their minds as to whether or not that MP still deserves their vote in the forth-coming General Election.

In practise, that will not happen because most folk are for various reasons will not make the effort to find out and will probably rely on the media to do the donkey-work for them.

Whatever, they (current MP's)will be judged.

Furthermore, the English people should not be insulted by some professional media commentators worrying that folks are going to turn away from mainstream parties and vote for the BNP instead.

They may well spurn the mainstream parties, but there are plenty of other smaller parties out there to choose from e.g. the Greens, English Democrats etc and also independent candidates.

There is all to play for, let us English people wake from our political torpor and break up this cosy cartel operated by Labour, the Tories and Lib-Dems.

"Norman Tebbit did not say "vote UKIP" - he knows that to have done so would have led to his instant expulsion from the Tories - but he might just as well have."

This is nonsense. He simply didn't even get close to saying that.

What about Libertas ? Or the Green Party ?

Tebbit may not be very 'green', but he was talking about a protest vote, a 'shot across the bows', so the idea of him supporting Peter Tatchell is not as hideously far-fetched as it might appear..

A week is a long time in politics, and the game has, as you say, changed.

@ phoenix.... 59

But you haven't seen Prescott's two new loo seats. Perhaps these are very aestheticly desiged.

Fantastic, the guy maintained his belly and enlarged his neck declaring food and pints, consequently hurts the loo seat so much it breaks, and then claims for new loo seats.

Given the few stones Prescott is overweight at the expense of taxpayers, he should repay the loo seats.

I want my share of those 2 seats back (only financially, that is!)

The expenses saga is turning out to be a political game changer.

Well it is for Brown...

Just what is his position on the money his MPs and ministers have embezzled.... oh yeah, that's right - they can keep it, no questions asked.

Game over, Brown - call an election.

To the streets, citizens .....

Thanks for the advice, Norman. But I have no intention of EVER voting Labour OR Tory again for ANYTHING! Nor Lib Dem. I'm sure the Telegraph will get round to their cheating antics shortly.

I'll be voting UKIP or BNP - whichever is likely to do the msot damage to the established incumbents. UKIP are away with the fairies and I don't like the BNP one little bit - but I HATE the other three parties for their total BETRAYAL. God rot them.

I believe there is now a public duty to overthrow this government by force if necessary - and destroy the entire current corrupt political regime and establishment.

As a septuagenarian "suit" I am surprised at the force of my own feelings. Revolution? Yes please; don't mind if I do!

It has been said that talk is cheap. Not from where I'm sitting it isn't.

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN DAFT PLATITUDES.

Some of these dead-to-rights numpties are still trying 'the system is rotten and needs to change'... um.. 'defence'.

You break the rules, or bend them more than even a little... you pay the price.

Welcome to our world, Westminster, the one you created.

Learned friends,

I have been remiss in not keeping up with this blog for a month or two, but for what it's worth here's my twopenneth.

A protest vote as suggested by the Chingford skinhead, is all well and good, but its a protest that you'll be stuck with for the next 4/5 years until these elections come round again.

My vote will go to whichever party (leader) shows some actual, real and substantial leadership on this expenses issue. Whichever one of them has the 'nads to sack members of their party, no matter how senior, and insist on all claims being repaid that are even slightly dubious, and what's more does it first....they get my vote. Even the lamentable Brown could win this race by getting shot of Blears, McNulty, Hoon and co.

Somehow, though, I don't think he will win....

Thinking Prescott's food, drink and loo seats expenses through:

Tax payers, voters, are entitled to healthy and sober politicians:

-no more food expenses for politicians with a BMI above 25

-no more alcohol on expenses and no more subsidised booze in parliament

68. At 2:35pm on 12 May 2009, Econoce wrote:
@ phoenix.... 59

But you haven't seen Prescott's two new loo seats. Perhaps these are very aestheticly desiged.
====================================
Hi there, Econoce,

Are they designed with a sunken goldfish pool on the lid, and is there a loo paper roll that plays "Roll the Boat out" when it's used?

@ phoenix... 74

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know.

Although admittedly, i would be very worried about myself if I was the only one in the know in addition to Mr two-everything!

Chaps,

I understand what Norman Tebbit is trying to convey as a message but I have to say this is a course that is fraught with difficulties. Protest votes, as others have said, tend to be short-term and deliver long-term implications. I await David Camerons 1530 news conference. His anger came through to me this morning on Sky and I would like to see him show his teeth and give a lesson to those who have been milking the system. This could be a game-changing day for the Tories. Norman Tebbit, much as though I get his gist, his plain and simply wrong.

Apologise to bother everyone again,

But re food expenses allowances for those with BMIs below 25: sober food expenses can be reimbursed but the first say 12 pounds a day should be paid by politicians themselves. Everyone needs food and hardly any employee can expense it, certainly not without paying tax on it (wow, just got on taxing food expense allowances!). 12 pounds is perhaps arbitrary but made up of 2 for breakfast 4 for lunch and 6 for dinner.

Cheers (a non-alcoholic cheers that is!)

Now I'll shut up for the day. Time to hit the employees' bar. Oops I forgot, that was in my time as MP!

· 34. At 12:55pm on 12 May 2009, fairlyopenmind wrote:
Tebbitt has always been outspoken. I think he's wrong to try and push people to vote for "non-core" parties.

Fairly, perhaps you can explain to someone like myself the difference between the two core parties because I cant see any real difference.
The two main parties are so similar now, that is virtually impossible to tell them apart and perhaps thats what Tebbit was trying to get across.

Cameron, the heir to Blair, Thatcher saying Blair was one of us etc etc.
The Euro Elections are a golden opportunity to kick the main parties in their rears, so lets not waste this chance.

73. Econoce

I don't want to wish the old boy ill, but Speaker Martin doesn't exactly look like a very healthy specimen.

PROTEST VOTE

If you put your cross next to a particular party, that means you're voting FOR that party, not against another party. You're voting for what THEY stand for.
Sounds obvious, but I thought I'd just flag it up.

So if you put your cross next to the BNP, you're voting FOR the BNP, not against troughing MPs.

Well I'm off now for the day, so no more intellectual guesses as to what horrors Prescott et al have purchased on our behalf. Just hope they are not imports from China and bear that rare little sign "Made in Great Britain".

I cannot understand why the MP's try to act dumb when it comes to cheating on their expenses. I have claimed expenses for over 5 yrs with my company and vetted my direct reports' claims and if anyone tried to cheat it was rejected. If the MP's are really that stupid they didn't realise they were making dodgy expense claims; then I question whether they should be representing us in Parliament. I say that expenses should be in the control of the Civil Service then a fair system can be policed correctly.

I shall probably vote for a "minor" party but not, I fancy, one of which Lord Tebbit would approve. Fortunately, the electorate is able to think for itself without the need for instructions from this "yesterday's man".

#75 brain Cells
Richards (work that one out)
Bellies (was that gazza mate)

and yeah 2 fingers to the electorate.

Nick, you say no-one has yet suggested any breach of Parliamentary rules...

The rules say the expense must be "wholly, exclusively and necessarily" incurred in the performance of their duties. This is exactly the same phraseology as is used to determine whether an employee's expense is tax deductible. So will you be putting such claims in your tax return? Because I can guarantee an investigation by HM Revenue & Customs if you do.

Okay, bored with the expenses row now.

Lets move on to Moonlighting!

How can any MP, most of whom complain that the job is time consuming, long hours and hard work, then manage to sit on several boards, get extra income from writing columns, advise companies and basically do what amounts to other jobs?

1. Moonlighting should be a sackable offence - like it is with other companies and public bodies.

2. MPs should not receive pay for anything else other than being an MP

3. MPs should be prevented from holding directorships of any sort what so ever, or be a partner, paid advisor and so on.

4. MPs shares should be mothballed or managed by a trust where the MP has no influence.

And so on.

If you become an MP, that should be your sole vocation - if you cannot handle that, then you should not be an MP.

Right, which MP would be breaking any of these rules and why?

Nick,

I would like to make an FOI application to see your expenses?

#38 Its great that Moran is going to pay back the 22.5k that inadvertantly ended up in her pocket for a 'family home' that is 100 miles from the registered address (both electoral and Companies House) of her partner, and from her constituancy and from Parliament. However if I were to rob a bank of that sum of money, and upon capture for said offence offer to repay it, would that mean that CPS and the police would take no further action?

Posts 74 & 75 whatever design the toilet seats were they couldn't have been much cop if two broke in such a short period of time.

Nick, please do a blog on who the people in the claims office are! None of this could have happened without their collusion.

I loved the missile you fired at David Cameron during his press conference about his own expense claims.

So to be impartial, why don't you ever do that to Brown?

Some hope.

Expenses are a side issue. Of course these should be right and proper but not an election decider.

Any boycott of the major parties (I assume this means Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats) allows a way in to the European Parliament for the BNP under the proportional Representation System. I don't think UKIP are far from the BNP either. So boycott the major parties at your peril, or maybe I've got it wrong and the UK thinks it is time for the far right to flourish. If so I'm looking for somewhere else to live,

Why is anyone going to listen to Lord Tebbitt on which way to vote at the European elections?

The public are not fools and can make up their own minds about who exactly is responsible for various catastrophes and miscarriages over the pst few years.

Who for example has denied the public the opportunity to vote on the EUropean constitution?

Who exactly created the Tripartite system that oversaw the collapse of the banking system?

WHo commissioned eleven reviews (a gross misuse of public funds) of the NHS and still failed to reform and restructure it?

Under whose watch have the Universities decided not to acknowledge the relevance of certain A levels as well as the poor quality of candidates?

Which of the three parties thinks the answer to every question is more money?

Which of the three main parties has left us with more debt than at any time since the end of WW2?

The answer to all these questions lies in the reason one of the political parties will suffer a humiliating rout at the European and local governemtn elections.

It has lost all political and moral authority to govern and should be dissolving parliment rather than casting around for peope to balem for its own demise and mess.

Lord Tebbitt's remarks are a drop in the ocean of public opprobrium about the misadventures of the newlabour experiment which looks right now as if it will kill newlabour once and for all.

Dissolve parliament now for the good of the country.

As a concerned citizen in my own home country I find this issue in the UK worth a look. We, in Chile, have had to deal with all sorts of nibling at public funds from Government officials and Congress members, and the key to this problem always seems to be effective accountability. Whatever else might be brought onto the table is fireworks. The difference between public servants, paid by the people, and money grabbing bucaneers, squeezing the people, lies on their knowing whether they can get away with it or not.

I know it is tempting to demand an election immediately, but that would let Labour off the hook - they caused the recession with their tax-n-squander politics, and I want to see them start making the urgently required cuts in public spending. If they go now, they will only start blaming the Tories for taking the painful decisions ('Tory cuts'). There are plenty of brain-dead, chip-on-shoulder, tribal class warriors who are only too happy to believe Labour lies and vote them back in again.

Next June they are all toast anyway. BTW, the Lib Dems are another bunch of big-government spenders, so they aren't an answer to anything.

Err, HELLO!

The MEP's are on an even bigger take, they are all at it!! Google: European Parliament - Sign in and S*d off - this has been going on for years!

I will be protest voting too. I would normally vote Tory, but they are all on the take, then again, I don't want to waste my vote.

The only ones who seem reasonably well aligned are NO2EU, but they are new players, so my concern is what happens if they are to get in!

£115k pa for Cameron ought to be easily sufficient for him to pay his own bills, and so set him apart from his fellow MPs scraping along on a mere £62k who have been FORCED to use the Allowance system to allow them to serve us, the voters and to allow them a family life
But one moment, Cameron too, has his snout in the trough: nearly £700 on garden clearance and taking all the annual Allowance so that taxpayers fund his mortgage interest, council rates and the rest! That others were in the pig-sty is hardly an excuse for a person claiming the high ground. Surely, what we ought to expect is leadership: showing by example, placing self-interest second to pursuing an agenda for the public good, not seeking to exclude PMs from the FoI Act e.t.c?
Blaming the system is wholly inappropriate for behaviour which if subject to the clear light of day, would not have taken place. Would MPs (and members of the Lords) have been able to convince the general public of the requirement for public duty to include cleaning swimming pools, getting rid of dry rot in a partners home, dog food, furnishing a private home on taxpayers money so as to make ready for sale ?
No, the answer is so clearly No! MPs involved in this sorry affair - spreading over more years than is revealed in the Telegraph - understand full well that, in the public glare they would have behaved differently - instead too many honourable members behaved dishonestly. Reading the Fees Office behaviour in this though, brings equal dismay: surely had they effectively challenged claims so obviously UNCONNECTED with members public duties - there would have been far, far less opportunity for greedy. opprtunistic behaviour!

#86 Guru

Absolutely disagree!

I don't care whether you are New Labour, Tory or Lib Dem. Part of the current problem is that most of our politicians don't have a clue what's going on outside the house and have no life experience; they are careerists who go straight from uni to a party seat a la Gould.

I do agree that there could be conflict of interest but then again this could be self-scrutinised by each party or Commons committee and if it can be proved that there is self-interest involved they should be sacked.

They should also be fired if their second job gets in the way of their main job but with Parliament sitting for a third of the year and debate almost unheard of with majority parties, a party in Oppposition (as New Labour will find out in due course) will have all the time in the world.

Looking at the totals of MPs expense claims for last year (on the website they work for you) it is very striking that the overall figures are very close to each other for most MPs.

The true problem with our democracy is visible to all. Whilst we have a parliament in Wales and Scotland, we have nothing similar in England. The votes of Scots and Welsh, having already chosen a parliament for themselves, are then used to enforce parties making decisions that often only affect England. These parties would likely not get elected without that support.

* Michael Martin, backed up in the media by Lord Foulkes
* Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, Jim Murphy, Douglas Alexander

All of the above have a Scottish constituency...yet make decisions affecting only England. I have no problem with them making those decisions that affect the UK, but they have ABSOLUTELY NO REMIT to make decisions on England that do not apply to Wales or Scotland.

We should use this opportunity to resolve this issue, amongst others (voting reform, reform of the Lords).