Torture allegations and UK-US relations

David Davis, our Civil Liberties hero! How long till he is back in the shadow cabinet? the sooner the better.

If HMG is complicit in the torture of a british resident then the foreign secretary must resign and resign immediately.

There is no place for torture conducted by agents of the crown or on their behalf by third parties.

Torture is anaethema to a civilised people.

Not in my name !

Seriously tho, nothing would surprise me about the limp wristed approach this Labour government has taken with recent American foreign policy. Only to willing to roll over and have our bellies tickled.

The British government should stand up for British principles not political expediency.

Shame on us for letting it happen.

Where is the 'dynamite'? 'Damp squb' more like. I am neither surprised that we have been involved in the 'torture' of prisoners in the 'war against terror' or that we are beholden to the US for much of our intelligence, a privilage that will be 'withdrawn' if we make too many waves.

In any case, the New Adminstration will have a lot of work to do and it will be some time before the likes of the CIA tow the 'new' Party Line.

As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep', nasty, but not in the same league as the treatment prisoners can expect in the hands of Mr Bin Laden's followers.

Don't get excited.

It will end in an inquiry that will last until after the next election to kick it into the long grass.

PS
are we in "Depression"?

If Brown's brain can't trust his mouth to deliver how can we trust him on anything else.

The pressure is being piled on this labour government now from all directions.

To avoid any further embarassment politics here needs a complete overhaul and that means this incumbent government resigning before even more damage is done.

Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy.

Does the fact that everything is still waiting Moderation mean the BBC is buckling again.

This is extraordinary rendition and territoriality meeting head on

Her we have someone tortured in three countries but not UK nor US to create deniability

When UK ends up unable to deny US bullies

Did our sercurity services help the Yanks ?

Are they vicariously liable ie did they stand by and let him be tortured ?

Great blog Nick Robinson!

I am familiar with this case, and yes, the alleged torture that Binyam Mohammed suffered is appalling.

What's more, as with many Guantanamo detanees, he was seized in Pakistan (sold by the Pakistani police to the Americans for ransom far from the 'battlefield') and the case constructed against him doesn't fit with the timeline that would need to have been followed.

If there is any hint of British involvement, and I wouldn't be surprised, then charges need to be brought against those responsible (however high up they may be) - and swiftly.

Also, if there is evidence that the American Administration is bullying us then, again, those officials who have fallen for this bullying need to be fired.

Any country trying to bully us must learn that it doesn't work - whether it's the Saudis or the Americans.

I think this is a sign that we need a far reaching enquiry into not just the Iraq War but the 'war on terror' - NOW not when New Labour are long gone.

What do you think?

An illegal war in Iraq, a dodgy dossier and you think the government might be innocent on this one?

Call an election.

Of course we were involved Nick. That's what New Labour were all about at the time.

Nick,

Any more facts to go on????

........... sounds like the government could successfully block any news on this with appeals, injunctions and then an enquiry.....

An urgent statement from Miliband to parliament is needed.

Nick,

these allegations are not the first to come into the public domain.

There is an injunction against my son which was imposed by the High Court. This whole episode is shameful. We are not innocent on this issue, the truth must come out and support given to those who want the truth to come out rather than those who wish that it would just go away.

long live the land of the free and the home of the brave...

If true then not only should the ministers responsible be prosecuted but there should by rights be a vote of no confidence in the government. This is TOTALLY unaceptable.

Why are the British MPs more concerned with foreign nationals than their own constituents? It is palpably obvious that this person was up to no good and therefore left themselves open to retribution for their collusion with people who would do us harm. I say let us deport him quickly, enough is enough, I am retired and the government gives me the princely sum of 6.5k per annum this person will cost the country 5 times that I am very angry.

Brown out

This really is political dynamite!

Expect some furious flusterings now as MP's desperately try to uncover what really happened

I truly hope that we were not involved in this alleged abuse of prisoners

The USA will pull intelligence in a heartbeat if they think that we're going to try and prove this in any way shape or form

Best to wait and see if the allegations are true though. I suspect the phrase 'where theres blame theres a claim' might be ringing round a few heads..........

Let's face it - if this is true and the British Government is found to have supported torture and allowed a British Court to be bullied by a foreign power, the Government must resign.

I stress IF though because I have a feeling the facts will be somewhat complicated.

The Government will use "national security" as an excuse not to publish anything which embarrasses their so-called allies. First it dropped the Saudi bribery case and now it is complicit in covering up American torture.

Craven. Stupid. Pathetic.

It's crazy that people are getting so worked up about these Guantanamo inmates. There's a story on the BBC site about 10% of released Guantanamo inmates have been known to re-join their terror units. Plus there must be many more who the authorities don't know about.

David Davis is wasting valuable House of Commons time probably in order to raise his own profile. He must understand that torture is the only way to get valuable information out of these indoctrinated and hardened terrorists, British-born or otherwise.

#4

It isnt a few stress positions its abdominal beatings and having his fingernails ripped out with a pair of pliers.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

No said: "PS
are we in "Depression"?

If Brown's brain can't trust his mouth to deliver how can we trust him on anything else."

----- ----- ----- -----

Oh come on, this was just a slip of the tongue from the Golem.
You see, he has a problem saying "recession", after all, he avoided saying it for months and months. So, he started with the "r" and then his feeble minded scratched around for another word and it came up with "depression".

There's an analogy here in the behaviour of Scotland Yard in Kenya. Called to investigate one political murder, and involved in another murder of a British citizen, they avoided all evidence linking to the then president, Daniel arap Moi.

Once Moi had been replaced, those investigations proceeded in a different light, but it was too late to bring justice in either case.

While Bush was president, the UK was complicit in "special rendition" and, at the very least, turned a blind eye to torture at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.

Now we have a successor to Bush, who has repudiated those policies, we fight among ourselves to clamber on the Obama bandwagon.

Pander to the powerful, that's how we conduct foreign policy. Now where's that Chinese delegation?

'As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep', nasty, but not in the same league as the treatment prisoners can expect in the hands of Mr Bin Laden's followers.'

Phew, that's ok then! Don't need to worry about these silly little people suffering from waterboarding and other actions contrary to the Geneva Convention, in the name of freedom! At least they no doubt got lots of evidence (that any fair court would throw out immediately). Don't know what these softies are moaning about. Thanks for making that clear, FalmouthBoy!

Huh? Of course the UK Government was complicit with the US torture of prisoners. Everyone knew that the US was torturing people in Gitmo, even if the US did use a different name for their treatment. Since the UK Government did nothing to stop the torture it became complicit. Then there are all the CIA flights that landed in the UK with prisoners to be taken to be tortured, which the UK Government did nothing about again making the UK Government complicit.

As to the reason they allowed themselves to become complicit I am guessing it was down to our Special Relationship and the fact the Blair idolised the US, often at our detriment. I applaud Mr Davis for raising this, though I doubt that it will get anywhere.

I am a realist, I understand that normally unacceptable things happen during war, but much of this happened outside the theatre of war and appears to be completely institutional. Those that authorised this and directly supported it need to be brought to account, but that will never happen.

By the time this gets moderated, this story will be old hat.

Anyway, I have it on good authority the government knew nothing about this...

Well, when I say good authority, that's what this councillor I know said.

Well, when I say councillor, he worked for the council.

Well, when I say worked...

Alcohol - the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

I am again disgusted at my country, led by clowns who were put in position by moral cowards.

I am even more saddened though, as i am not surprised having believed that Uk forces of the secretive nature, were/are involved in torture.

This Labour government are the most despicable that i have ever known, and i hated Thatcherite Britain. Having thought as i type , why should it surprise or anger us that this government is complicit in torture when it spies on its own populace and declared war on a foreign nation illegally.

I am not in the least bit surpised that this country has been involved in torture. There is a murky world out there that most of don't know about or want to know about.

Yes torture is abhorrent but there is a question of degree and in the aftermath of 9/11 etc I can understand the desire to do whatever was necessary. I suspect this is not the only case and would have happened if the tories had been in power.

The problem is that we as a democracy cannot preach to the rest of world and not be whiter than white ourselves. Unfortunately, on this occasion the government may have been caught and its on Gordon Brown's watch. I can't help thinking about Napolean's comments about lucky generals!

"As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep'"

Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan? I rather fear you've missed the point.

Can the Foreign Minister disclose the materials that relate to torture practice and leave out that relate to risks of national security? This is all governements discretion.
The judge's contention is quite simple. He wants informations that concern to public interest be relesed. Is it too much to ask in a democratice system?

So that may be good bye Milliband...

Much as I like people getting what they deserve, with Brown dubious mental state I am not sure it will be good to dirupt his routine like this.

Then again at least david will have jack straw to keep him company away from the front bench.

Nick, now that Crick is stoking this up, can we expect you to give the Straw story the same high profile that osborne got? Maybe think about doing the mandleson/oleg story at the same time...

#6. virtualsilverlady

"To avoid any further embarassment politics here needs a complete overhaul and that means this incumbent government resigning before even more damage is done."

Will that actually make any difference? Won't you be back here in a few short years' time? Have you not in fact been here many, many ties before?

"Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy."

Yes, a clean sweep is a good policy.

But if you sweep the streets and don't make use of litter bins, are you not just letting the dirt build up once again?

I suggest you ditch the system not just those that are at the control. You need constitutional change, a parliament for England and quite possibly PR. THEN you just might be able to move forward. What say you?
:-)

I like David Davis

Theres a wiff of conviction about the man.




Poor old Gordon Brown, spends a decade waiting for the job of his dreams and its been nothing but a bloody nightmare.

1.Bring back David Davies

er....since when does hitting the 'space bar' constitute hitting 'return'.

Right where was I.....

oh, I can't be bothered now.

Call an election

Are the tories saying that the British Government should take responsibility for everyone who has ever lived in Britain, no matter what their nationality or where actually are living or have lived? Seems like political point scoring to me.

The judgment can be found here
https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgment_guidance/judgments/mohamed210808.htm
t

Apparently Number 10 is denying that the PM knew anything about the threat of withdrawal of US intelligence assistance. I believe the two very respected independent High Court judges. A statement should be made in the House of Commons by the foreign secretary immediately.

In this story the truth is obscured in so many ways, it is hard to know where to start.

Torture? No such thing.

Uncomfortable, yes, but not even a cause of permanent injury or placing the subject at risk of death.


British resident? No such thing.

This man lived here for a few years, leaving in 2001 apparently to undergo military training in Afghanistan. he has not been back, and frankly, I wouldn't want him back. If David Davis is fool enough to want him to return, perhaps he can give him house room.

Since leaving he has apparently been involved in a 'dirty 'bomb plot mixing conventional explosive and radioactive material.

Since being arrested he claims to have been injected with heroin to get him addicted

I din't believe a word.

We wont get a striaght answer from the bunch of crooks that pass themselves off as HMG.

They will hide behind anything rather than give a straight answer - and even when they do (e.g. admitting we are in a Depression) they then claim it is a slip of the tongue. (Tho' I cannot recall when a slip of the tongue meant that you were NOT telling the truth)

Milliband must come to the House now and tellk the truth. Then - if the truth is that which has been reported - he and other complicit ministers (e.g. Jack Straw as a former Foreign Secretary) must immediately be sacked - they should not be allowed the opportunity to try and scramble some form of dignity by resigning.

'It is palpably obvious that this person was up to no good and therefore left themselves open to retribution for their collusion with people who would do us harm.'

I would suggest, Blogord, that you have a quick perusal of Bad Men, by Clive Stafford Smith. This is an excellent and eye-opening read which refers to the cases of many at Gitmo, one of whom, Binyam Mohamed, is quite clearly and blatantly shown to be a victim of what might politely be called a miscarriage of 'justice', all because of the myopic determination of one regime's (Dubya's) efforts to create a status of fear amongst its populace.

My wife is American and I have lived there. The USA is a fabulous place and a fabulous democracy (in stark contrast to our own), but never believe that America does anything but look after its own interests. By swearing to uphold the constitution the American president is swearing to protect the US not us.

This "news item" is utterly surreal. Have the BBC and David Davies not read Craig Murray's Murder in Samarkand? I really cannot believe that they are oblivious to this and many, many blog discussions on the issue.

That the UK is complicit in torture, and believes it is OK to use intelligence obtained by such means, has been common knowledge for years.

Why has this taken so long to be aired publically? For the uninitiated and the naive Google RJ Hillhouse and the outsourced miltary and intelligence companies.

There is a whole stack of activities taking place including the most reprehensible torture imaginable in Iraq and Afghanistan that is totally removed from Congressional and Parliamentary oversight. The money to support this does NOT come from defence budgets. It is all done on the quiet.

Everyone in the UK and US governments are complicit in this. But as the detention camps are outsourced politicians have been able to claim deniability. Guantanamo is different as it is run by the US Army on an Army base, and you can bet your bottom dollar that members of the UK intelligence services will have been present. Oh, and they will have been seconded to an outsourced intelligence company so Whitehall can claim plausible deniability.

What's the betting there'll be another whitewash?

6. At 2:37pm on 04 Feb 2009, virtualsilverlady wrote:

Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy.

======

It's called 'honest' government. This lot wouldn't know what the words mean - or be able to spell them.

I don't care ..... as it wasn't me!

Nick: "I should stress that I have yet to see the judgement for myself."

Isn't that the whole point of what Davies is saying?!?

By the way, if the government is concerned about embarrassing America through a revelation of this sort - well that is rather nonsensical given American officials have already admitted to torture.

John Yoo wrote last week that waterboarding had been authorised by George Bush, and Susan Crawford told the Washington Post that Mohamed Al Qatani had been tortured in Guantanamo Bay.

So, one has to ask, who exactly is afraid of another torture revelation?

So now our courts take orders from the US government under pressure from our own government!

Let's hope that Obama reverses the policy but if, as appears to be the case, UK ministers kowtowed to pressure from the Bush-Cheney regime in this way that is an absolute disgrace. They should be sacked but who will sack them? Since they have no shame they won't resign, just appoint a whitewash enquiry.

What does it take to bring back the rule of law? This country badly needs safeguards against the misuse of Government power but many people are too preoccupied with celebrity gossip and narrow self-interest to care.

i suspect if you say alledgedly b/4 every word you type it will pass the moderator ...but here goes...
1)iIf we allowed American planes to land at british airbases carrying prisoners (for torture in european sites ?)as has already been acknowleged by the gov't ,then it is almost certain that we have also been complicit in these new torture allegations.
2)The gov't definitely sexed up the Iraq WMD dossiers as reported by gilligan in order to enable the iraq attacks to go ahead ...its unfortunate that ,despite a ruling agaist the gov't that the full legal advice given by the Lord Chancillor should be made available under the FOI act, nothing has yet been published
3)If we can stoop so low as to alledgedly torture our own nationals ,could we stoop that little bit lower and kill them....Dr D Kelly?
4)Tony Blair must have got his war medals off G bush for doing something illegal....otherwise it would have been in Cherie's and Campbells memoires...and crash gordon dis-appeared at the time so it is obvious he didn't want to take any credit for what was happening
5)Jack Straw keeps getting jobs in the gov't .....so either Gord is keeping him close by in order that he can sack him when the detail gets out or Jack knows too much and has threatened Gord he will spill the beans thus ensuring the demise of the labour party for the forseeable future

But,....when all is said and done ,if the person who was tortured had been involved in terrorism and been involved in attacking british soldiers or civilians then IT SERVES HIM RIGHT

We are all aware that if you give in to a bully then the situation usually gets worse. We must always adhere to the laws of this country first, despite the so-called "special relationship".

BROWN OUT!

LABOUR OUT!

There must be a full and open explanation by the Government to the allegations.

Although a firm supporter of the USA policy on Iraq, Afghanistan and its anti-terror measures I completely oppose any use of torture. Any such actions are wholly unacceptable in a civilised democracy.

Perhaps 'rendition' of terrorist suspects is not the best method of transporting captured enemy combatants but it is not entirely different from the Allies' transfer of WW2 Nazi POWS to various parts of the world.

However, I would also like to know how a man who claims to have suffered dreadful and inhumane treatment is cognisant with all 3 countries where he claims it happens? Remarkably lax control by the security agencies!

What's the point of asking Labour ministers to make statements to the House of Commons? They will just lie anyway. All together now ministers, we know nothing of these matters.

This is a serious matter, but I just don't believe we will know the truth until we have a change of government.

What is all this talk on the main article of David Davies being a "Senior" Tory MP? He is a backbencher, get your facts right! I never hear Charles Clarke called a "Senior" labour MP or any other minsiter/shadow minsiter who has quit/been sacked. David Davies is a political opportunist of the worst sort and is a backbencher for one reason only, his judgement is considered flawed by the rest of his party!

Next move by Brown and Milliband is very predictable - rollout Baldrick Burnham to slander David Davies and allege this is all about his personal life. Its time for the courts to stand up and be counted since we cannot look to the govt to protect us. The judge should publish and be damned and haul the PM and FM up for contempt if they try to interfere.

Nick:

Why has David Davis raised this issue? If he wants a statement from the Foreign Sec. should the shadow FS not be leading on the demand? Did Cameron/Hague know he was going to make the remarks?

The reaction of boabycat and others proves he has achieved his main aim of his comments. Publicity! He managed get himself into TV studios within 45 minutes of the news. Hmmmmm.

RobinJD and Comment9 on 'illegal war' and 'dodgy dossier'.

Which 'illegal' war are you referring to?

I was not aware US-UK and other armed forces of the willing had embarked on any illegal military campaign: Please print details of the Legal Judgement that sustains your allegation.

A 'dodgy dossier'? I could be wrong, but, I surmise you are referring to documents submitted to Parliament by PM Blair prior to the invasion of Saddam's Iraq. In which case as some 600+ MPs read and voted to accept the Intelligence Reports etc. compiled at the time I wonder whether the use of 'dodgy' is advisable as compared with 'debateable' or 'now shown to be erroneous'.

But then, that would mean you accepting that no one was misled, but, many from PM Blair down were mistaken, and in those 2 key words there is a world of difference and implication!

DavidRMurrell and Comment26 that "everyone knew the US was torturing" people at Gitmo.

Did they!?

Did you!?

You've been there!? Seen it happen!? Heard the grisly detail!?

Then again, maybe 'everyone' is not as astute as you or has that ESP that enabled you to know so much whilst us mere mortals have to wait for the Evidence: It's a small thing, but, it's fairly vital if you want to convict anyone of anything.

It may be the accounts of the 'tortured' will all become horrendously accurate and even some of the 'torturers' may come clean. All the same, you have to take a step back and realise that though your outraged sense of a wrong being done may be true it is as yet, far from being proven.

That step back and considered wait for the proof is part of what does separate the true Democratic supporter from the fanatical terrorist or the corrupt regime.
It may be why in the end Pres Dubya is held to be a terrible example to Democracy, but, at least that will occur whereas neither terrorist nor dictator would ever allow such a Right and Responsibility to ordinary Citizens.

Maybe the best way out of this for the PM is to blame it entirely on his predecessor.

In fairness, this looks like a Blair mess, not a Brown one.

It could be the very opportunity that Brown needs to distance himself from Blair.

Nick, Please research that Mark Steyn who is a disgrace to the British accent is this minute on Fox Talk Radio in place of Rush Limbaugh supporting torture and the sale of 'Club Gitmo' Tee Shirts on Rush's website and also talks of red hot pokers being a useful tool. I believe Mark was brought up in Birmingham but might be Canadian by parentage but sounds very British which disgusts me to the core. Google 'patrick lockyer' to see my own rants and support of your brave questioning of Bush that time.

#34 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2

"Poor old Gordon Brown, spends a decade waiting for the job of his dreams and its been nothing but a bloody nightmare."

Tough sh!t!
His [insert eloquent criticism meaning "up his 0wn bu+"] motives got him there, left him there and got him here - and left us here! It's of his own making.

He is getting only what has been coming.

He was devious remember, not least over Scotland, his own country - can you imagine an Englishman doing that (if you shift the situation in reverse - OK, but you wouldn't like him!). IMO he is a power-hungry sick maniac.

But usually, by their imperfections' design, they have a grand fall.

I am quite a fair person at heart and these consequences Brown has been experiencing are only going some way to restore the action-consequences balance.

That calm has not been restored yet, so I do not feel bad, feel bad I do not!
;-)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration? Why was he in Pakistan on a forged passport in the first place?
It seems the US are more interested in their citizens safety than us Brits, who as usual let the civil rights brigade ride roughshod over the rest of us.

@37. ubergunner wrote:

"Are the tories saying that the British Government should take responsibility for everyone who has ever lived in Britain, no matter what their nationality or where actually are living or have lived? Seems like political point scoring to me."

Er, no. I think the issue may be that torture is illegal and considered a war crime! I think you may be one guilty of point-scoring.

This also presents a problem for Gordon Brown. If he knows that torture took place under the Blair Government, but says it did not, then that seems to make him an accessory after the fact.

We are regularly told that our government neither condones nor accepts evidence obtained through torture. In 2004 Jack Straw was told by Craig Murray, British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, that intelligence being used by Britain had been obtained through torture. Jack Straw denied it and Craig Murray was sacked for his troubles.

Britain is no longer a military super power, we are no longer a great manufacturing nation but if it wasn't for discredited governments like Blair's and the servile politicians who sucked up to him, we could have been a great moral power and lead the world in ethics and integrity. As it is, we followed the USA into odium and ignominy.

Israel does the 'dirty work' for the USA and the USA does the 'dirty work' for us it seems? Go Figure?

Wether this chap is in the right or not, Id sooner they shout more about the treatment of the British Soldiers who are not experiencing miscomfort or torture, but death disfigurement and dumped on the scrap heap when they return home from the illegal wars they have been sent into.

I think this is a bit of a red herring compared to the other explosive stories that have yet to be become public knowledge , but never will without a whistle blower.

Important though the truth of Binyam Mohamed case is, the threat of US co-operation with UK security is a far greater issue. Effectively the USA is saying that they would keep quiet about a known attack on UK troops, UK civilians, and even a massive terroist attack against a UK city. Just to get their own back if we don't do as we are told. The UK should give the US an ultimatum that if they do not retract and apologize for this threat immediately then they will be treated as an organised threat against our Nation. Their diplomats and military personnel should be asked to leave, any known and all suspect agents should be deported.

The UK must not allow yet another US leader try to treat us as dirt on his shoe. Last week he wants to start a trade war. Now he wants an intelligence war.

Come UK tell these people to play the game or take their ball back home.

Why Oh Why is David Davison not on the front line of the Conservitive Party,
Ken Clark should swap seats with him.
labour conected with torture?
Yep, I could believe that after all they have done to our country.
Go Now labour.

I'd be in a r-depression too if I'd made the colossal, un-precedented pig's breakfast of my job, which Brown has managed.

An awful lot of racist sentiment on some of the blogs this afternoon.

#59, 60

On that basis no-one "knows" anything unless they see it with their own eyes, and even then they may be wrong...

In the real world we can't wait for a historian in an Oxford college to tell us 20 years after the event that something bad happened. We have to react when prima facie evidence of wrongdoing is presented to us, and take it from there.

More messy than you would like, maybe, but that's what real life is like.

I've had a quick read of the judgement thanks to the link kindly provided in #38 and the judges make a compelling and very cautiously argued judgement.

For once I agree wholeheartedly with Nick. This could very very difficult for the Government, and also for Obama.

And David Davis has done us a service again, despite the cynicism of some over his motivation.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

How naïve everyone is.

Is there anyone who believes there has EVER been a UK government (since the birth of democracy) that has not been complicit in torture? Or any other government in the World for that matter. They do it and know about it; what is more they do it in our name – to protect us.
Your head is well buried if you believe otherwise That is why the USA and Obama want it kept secret, to avoid upsetting their own citizens and inflaming more terroroist action, though terrorists must themselves know it goes on, on both sides.
At the moment it is only alleged so we also know it will, and should, come to nothing. We need state secrets to keep us sane.

"There's a story on the BBC site about 10% of released Guantanamo inmates have been known to re-join their terror units."

That is pure propaganda. The American media has been briefed on this by the Pentagon and the pentagon came up with a different figure every month from 20 to 16 to 8 to 2 to 26... In other words, they have NO proof at all and have been making figures up on the hoof!

When investigated further it was found that the pentagon decided that if the released detainees merely blogged against American policy regarding Guantanamo, then it was concluded that they had returned to their "terrorist activities".

Blogging was regarded as terrorist activity.

The pentagon has made no mention of returning to "terrorist units" by the way.

A clear majority of "terrorist plots" in this country have been as a result of lies uttered by detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Morrocco, Guantanamo and elsewhere that have been tortured into confessions, leading to further renditions and further torture....

And when I say torture, I mean activities far more intense than mere "stress positions" and "sleep deprivation".

I know people that could use their specialist "enhanced interrogation" techniques to get anyone to confess to anything. They could have our Derek Barking professing to loving Margaret Thatcher inside half an hour!

Several of the torturers at these various global facilities have come out publicly and admitted their roles and complicity in what they admit is torture.

So these allegations are nothing new and it is of extreme shame that the BBC itself chose not to investigate and authenticate the many many many cases of torture themselves.

And the BBC claim to employ Journalists???

I have yet to see proof!

Why should we care about someone who was in or near a war zone where he may have been responsible for the deaths of British or allied troops. Let him rot in Guantanamo, if Obama wants rid of him then get on with it, just don't bring him back here.

Can it be that the American Intelligence community is threatening the UK government just 24 hours after Secretary Clinton was publicly hailing the 'special relationship'? Time for some houses to be put in order both sides of the pond, me thinks.

We would not want the new administration to be seen as a bunch of hypocrites would we? One hypocrite in the family is enough thank you.

BTW, I believe terrorists SHOULD be tortured, repeatedly, over and over and over....

BUT, we need to be sure that they ARE terrorists, and that precludes torture! When taxi drivers are picked up in Pakistan and sold to the Americans for a bounty, and the allegations against them are NOT corroborated, then Torture ONLY leads to false confessions, false information, false renditions and further torture and renditions and false terrorist scares and our police being made to look stupid.

Torture also provides motivation for the victim to turn to terrorism and plot revenge.

There should be Correct jurisprudence and only when the suspect has been found guilty beyond doubt, should the torture be inflicted.

Quote: "Uncomfortable, yes, but not even a cause of permanent injury or placing the subject at risk of death."

yeah, that's why many detainees at Abu Ghraib were only stress positioned to death....

Their testicles being shot off, or eaten by dogs had nothing to do with it, it was those stress positions....

The fact that Iraqi scientists, often people who had faced torture under Saddam's rule, were then tortured by OUR side, and often had to sit and watch their own children tortured, in a futile attempt to try to get these scientists to reveal the locations of WMD that the American and British leadership KNEW did not exist, (As they had been briefed to that effect by personnel inside the intelligence agencies prior to the invasion) is a point of eternal shame on our nation.

Keep drinking the cool-aid and enabling torturers to get away with it!

15. At 3:06pm on 04 Feb 2009, blogord wrote:
Why are the British MPs more concerned with foreign nationals than their own constituents?

ANSWER: Because it makes good media copy. Also, a good way of collecting votes, since the UK-born non-ethnic population has become dulled and apathetic, possibly not even going to vote.

65. ettykett Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration?

ANSWER: See my #82.
I agree with you on all points.

A horror.

"65. At 6:15pm on 04 Feb 2009, ettykett wrote:

Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration?"
-------------------------------------------

Torturing innocent people to get information that they cannot possibly have in a political war of occupation IS terrorism.

IF these people are suspects, then try them in court and IF found guilty, THEN torture them.

The thing is, When we went to war in Afghanistan, tribal peoples captured and sold people from other rival tribes to the Americans and they often invented information linking the abducted victim with terrorism to boost their payments.

Did you know for example that the man dubbed the mastermind and ringleader of 9/11, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has also confessed to other plots, including but not limited to several that were not even thought of until AFTER he was placed inside Guantanamo?

This means that either the mastermind behind 9/11 was running international terrorist cells from inside Gitmo under the Americans noses, OR he was tortured into confessing to things that he could not possibly have done!

Torture DOES NOT WORK, it is counter productive, immoral, illegal, sick, depraved and if any British minister knew it was going on (and several definitely did) then they should not only be sacked from the Government, but should stand trial for their crimes!!!

Why should we worried about a non British Subject who just happened to live here for a time ( legally or illegally)
If he is released should be sent back to country of origin.

Mohamed went on a phoney passport to get rid of his drug habit. Hmmm. As a matter of interest, after his alleged rough treatment, is he now clean of drugs?

Just saw the Foreign secretary saying how important it was that the principal of foreign govts keeping our state secrets was preserved.But didn`t the US release our inteligence (wrong as it turned out) that Iraq had tried to buy Uranium from Niger which was inteligence we had supplied but had not agreed to release but the US did anyway.

Here are some American confessions of torture...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/14/AR2009011402319_pf.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/14/AR2009011402319_pf.html

https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5514239.ece

There are more, particularly in other detention centers in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere. Actually what happened in Gitmo was pretty tame compared to other centers, but still amounted to a legal definition of torture.

The Americans, and other allied nations, carried out far worse torture in the other countries, with British Knowledge...

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When it comes to getting essential information from captured al Qaeda terrorist and their friends in the battle zone, I'm with Jack Bauer.

Dear Nick,

Thanks for the new story, I was getting bored of that EU controls Britain, British jobs for British workers etc, etc.

Also I was getting rather tired of this whole 'Britian has become a bedwetting country unable to cope with a slight snow 'event' headline.

At last someone somewhere is standing up for themselves and demanding action. Oh, sorry, that is America.

Yep, this country has become a laughing stock throughout the world, thanks GB!

Xxxx
ps 2010 NOW!

I can't stay and play this evening, boys and girls, but I'm glad to see that Brown is still opening his mouth and promptly inserting both feet.

From the genius who gave us

"No more boom or bust"

"Britain is well placed to ride out the 'downturn' "

"I saved the world"

"British jobs for British workers"

We now have

" ... depression"

Political dynamite.

Yes, it probably is as far as that asinine game goes.

But do people out there really think that the Tories would have behaved any differently if they were in power during this period of 'extraordinary renditions'?

I think not.

In fact, historically, in political terms, the Tories have usually sucked up to the USA more than Labour.

Therefore this seems to me like just another stick for the Tories to beat the NL Government up with.

The Americans have been calling the shots, well, since at least WWII.

All 'British' Governments have been able to do down the decades, especially after Suez, is face both ways.

That is, being more-or-less fully compliant with American security 'requests', whilst simultaneously giving an illusion to their public that they are an independent (of America) security entity.

Time for that fallacy to be laid bare.

We English need to become fully fledged EU partners and then the EU as a political whole, can deal with the Americans on security matters as apparent equals (although in reality, it still won't quite be that).

I just heard someone claim that reports of torture by the British are rare:
British Police torture and brutality allegations abound.
Norther Ireland - allegations proven
Falklands - allegations of executions
Aden
Burma
Every other British Empire occupation
Britain is a design center for torture equipment
Mercenaries (ex service personnel) became a known export during the Angola war and have remained active.

Looks like 'special relationship' translates as 'special subservience', no doubt spelt out by Clinton to 'big girl's blouse' Milliband only the other day. So the US would cut our access to their intelligence if we were to tell how bad they treated this guy in Gitmo? How about we threaten to (a) shut down their operations at Fylingdales, Menwith Hill and all other listening posts they operate here; (b) shut down all US airbases; (c) cut all US access to UK intelligence from GCHQ; (d) kick em off diego garcia. This government (and all others to date) are so spineless.

Saw Milliband on the telly tonight, and am sorry to say he was absulutely hopeless....I think he has to go....he has a horrid tv persona, he is loathed by every foreign secretary he meets, his policies are stale and he comes across as always snarling and sneering.
He was a traitor to Brown and his days are numbered.
The Americans want him out and it is time to say ta ta to Milliboy.
Game over.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Dear 71:

"Why Oh Why is David Davison not on the front line of the Conservitive Party,
Ken Clark should swap seats with him."

How about David Davis with Ken Clarke?!!

Why are some Tories who are getting so indignant about this issue can't spell the name of their men?!! It is Davis - not Davies, Davison, nor Clark, etc.

Next it will be Camemoron, Vague, etc.

I have never seen so many Tories upset about a British resident. I wish you had the same attitude with Thatcher's love-in about Reagan, Pinochet and apartheid.