Labour to end top rate tax pledge

And what makes this pledge any different to the others they haven't upheld ?

They have made a party manifesto into a work of fiction...

I'm sure that high earners will soon find a way to get out of it...

Is there any point in the Chancellor actually making a statement as most of what he can do and will do has already been told to us by himself.the former Chancellor and the Minister for business.

Could you please ask for a timetable from the Chancellor as to what time scale he is working to,and over how many Parliaments are we going to be lumbered with the extra Tax's ? just his best estimate will do so we have a baseline in his thinking .

And so it begins.

A budget deficit of £100 billion and Labour aim to recover £2-£3 billion in two years time - less than the INTEREST on the increase in budget deficit by sacrificing one of their previous key commitments.

How many more tax increases must they make? How much more money will they have to take out of the economy to try and make up this shortfall? How long will it be before they make that call to the Banker - the IMF? Hours?

The VAT discount won't work - it is like giving a patient a saline drip when electric shock treatment would be in order. I suspect most of the discount will be absorbed by retailers - after all most of them are offering sales at the moment anyway. What happened in America when everyone was give $700 to spend? Did it stop the country falling into recession - will it save GM/ Vauxhall/ Ford?

In effect the Government is replacing borrowing by the individual and companies with borrowing by the State - in the vain hope that borrowing in the economy will start again. But with what? How many people out there still have equity in the houses they could release by increasing their mortgage? How many banks would want to allow them to increase their mortgage? How many entrepeneurs will have their assets seized that they gave as collateral for their business? How many home owners will have to remortgage at substantially higher rates as the mortgage they request is 95% or higher? Pity the people who took out a 125% mortgage - it is now a 150% one!

A bloodbath is coming - bear in mind that the manufacturing index has gone up by 2% since 1999 - our GNP should therefore have gone up by the same amount - instead of the ridiculous 25% due to overextended borrowing. Any fiscal stimulus just makes matters worse - we borrow even more - we don't produce more - and we have to pay back the increase of borrowing as well. A fiscal stimulus to encourage manufacturing and exporting may help.

And in the last year we have spent £50 billion pounds funding our spending habit by buying goods from abroad. No doubt this figure will go down a bit (if the recession continues) or go up a bit (if the fiscal stimulus works) but in either case by 2011 we have to assume that £90 - £100 billion more will have left the country.

The horrible thing about borrowing is that for spending to continue, you have to borrow the same amount next year and the year after. And this time next year, with borrowing at an even lower level than 2008 and no increase in GDP, the Chancellor will have to do the same again. He has to - dogma will permit no alternative.

Today at 3.30 begins a new suicide note in politics. NULabour RIP.

It's a small proportion of the relevant tax rises, and is just the thin end of the wedge.

What he won't tell you is that if this only raises 3billion where's the rest of the money going to come from.

He won't tell you that because it'll mean that VAT will go up to 25%, the lowest rate of income tax will go to 35%, council tax will become 2000 a year for a one-bed studio flat, and all the wealth creators of will leave the country thereby destroying the entire economy.

This is going to make the labour-caused collapse of the 1970's look like a tiny blip.

If we don't get a change of government in 2010 we're totally finished. Even with a change in 2010 it's not going to be pretty.

Come on Nick don’t be so coy, it is after all NuLabour you are talking about!

So Nick, the 2010 NuLabour manifesto is beginning to take shape:

1 Due to unforeseen circumstances we were not able to carry out our 2005 commitment for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. For reasons beyond our control that commitment is a dead duck, so will be excluded from this manifesto.

2 We have doubled the band of taxation for our lowest paid workers so now in line with that action we intend to increase the top band by 5 percent.

3 Due to the fact we are a party for the many and not the few we also intend to raise the 20 percent tax band to 25 percent.

4 Gordon is great.

5 Brown is a super hero.

6 Flash Gordon has saved the world.

7 Long live Duff Gordon.

Vote for us - vote NuLabour the party that does not overtax and/or overspend.

Yeah right on.

I was a bit puzzled by the reduction in VAT but this is balanced out by the chance of the higher income rate being raised. Overall, it looks like the sketchy outline of an incomes policy that's in line with historical norms and standards. I'm generally in favour of that and the cut off point of 150K GBP looks about right.

It's been covered a few times recently but studies and surveys suggest that top earners tend not to be motivated or perform better if they're paid more. Plus, reducing the economic and social pressure on middle and lower incomes will help reduce cost pressure and upset. That should help boost morale and reduce anti-social attitudes.

Some people will claim that this tax and earnings approach will stifle entrepreneurship and business overseas. It may be true in a tiny minority of cases but skills and people aren't that portable in reality, and if business wants access to skills and markets in Britain they have to dance to the tune, or someone else will step in to replace them.

Corporate governance, fair wages, innovation, a polite society, wellbeing, and long-term capital growth isn't far behind this new and, some would argue, long overdue agenda. I've been arguing for it in this blog almost since the day Nick opened shop. Government is treacle slow and 3 years is lightspeed for government, so I'll count that as a result.

There's other things that flow from this. The more savvy politicians and journalists know that a basic level of competence, relevance, and patience is useful in developing a more mature body politic. It's been very slow in arriving but the media articles and political speeches on personal development and economics might just be kicking in.

I've commented on the Tao of economics and Keynesianism before but Plato has a similar and equally interesting reflection. His often overlooked unwritten doctrine is that the great and the small are part of the One: that form is contained within the One, and the One gives rise to form. In a nutshell: what you do matters and everything is connected.

I'm sure, our God-King Gordon Brown, Great Helmsman of the United Kingdom, Blessed Saviour of the World, His Excellency the Chancellor to the Cosmos (according to Andrew Rawnsley) knows this stuff. It's been theorised that Plato has a similar personality type along with Shogun Ieyasu Tokugawa, so a similar ethos and direction doesn't come as a surprise.

chuck @5
go to bed, take something for the fever you have. why do you consider that funny man in Downing st to be our saviour?

He is killing GB, killing England and crippling us with his unique brand of ineptness.

he needs to knw that this is no time for a novice, which is what HE is.

#5 Chuck_E_Hardwidge

I'm sure, our God-King Gordon Brown, Great Helmsman of the United Kingdom, Blessed Saviour of the World, His Excellency the Chancellor to the Cosmos (according to Andrew Rawnsley) knows this stuff. It's been theorised that Plato has a similar personality type along with Shogun Ieyasu Tokugawa, so a similar ethos and direction doesn't come as a surprise.

I note that part of the above section is from Andrew RawnsleyAnother on-off election fiasco would be fatal for Mr Brown article.
Pity you did not actually read the rest of the article. Which incidentally referred to Flash Gordon and his dithering with regards an early election.

Some of those close to the Prime Minister are telling him that he should make an unequivocal declaration that there will not be an election in the spring of next year. This sounds like advice that he needs to heed. To make the mistake once was folly. To make the mistake twice would be suicide.

It appears that you are clutching at straws Chuck, and are using myth to legitimise it!

#5 Chuck_E_Hardwidge

Had you read the article in full Chuck, you would have noticed the following:

Now, you may have noticed that each and every one of these arguments for an early election starts with an almighty big 'if'. Those trying to persuade Mr Brown to plan for an election next spring are inviting him to play Russian roulette with a revolver in which five of the chambers are loaded.

So it looks like Duff Gordon has two choices:

1 Go for an early election with 5 bullets in the chamber.

2 Stick with 2010 with 6 bullets in the chamber.

It will almost be worth the pain!

He is killing GB, killing England and crippling us with his unique brand of ineptness.

The science and historical norms and standards generally agree with this taxation approach. The CBI and media don't totally get it yet, and the Tories are dragging along like the broken wheel on a shopping trolly, but it's sound enough.

It's notable that the Liberals are swinging their canon in favour of the government, so the Tories are becoming even more marginalised. Historically, this reminds me of the deciding battle Ieyasu Tokugawa fought before being declared Shogun.

It appears that you are clutching at straws Chuck, and are using myth to legitimise it!

If you looked at the structure and balance of the emerging tax policy, and how that might underpin certainty for business and create a better sense of fairness, I suspect, you'd be less hostile to the plan and the general intent of the government.

This new tax approach doesn't just provide a short-term fiscal stimulus but a solid framework for the long-term. Sure, there's some tuning and tidying up that can take place later but it's in line with reality and what people have been asking for.

I tend to think a lot of your badmouthing and attitude is because you're dwelling on past mistakes and haven't taken care to understand things fully. If you want to move into management or go anywhere near customers you're going to have to take a step back from that.

the next election may well be worth losing for the tories....let those that created the mess sup the poisoned chalice.

#9 Chuck_E_Hardwick

I am surprised you did not throw in the following Brown quote:

By the actions we take, savings are safe, people will be able to keep their jobs, and they will not lose their homes.

It does look like Duff and you are of the same mindset (your words not mine). Shoot off at the mouth before putting the gray matter into gear!

If you want to move into management or go anywhere near customers you're going to have to take a step back from that.

Obviously you do not read what you reply to or what you use for support.

I design electronic hardware, software and firmware for solutions, hopefully, that will help solve environmental problems in tomorrows real world.

Chuck you are priceless - for everything else there is Barclaycard!

What a record on increasing tax this government has. Fiscal drag has now brought many of the lower and middle paid into higher taxation. The biggest fiddle is the tax credit that offsets welfare against taxation enabling this mendacious lot to claim that income tax has gone down.
What a bunch of liars they are.

Dear Nick
OLD LABOUR is back, Brown cannot hope to control spending without hitting the rich, who have evaded tax for decades now. middle England has always born the Blunt of tax rise's along with the most vunerable the Poor who Brown states he is a friend of, like the pensions and 10p tax rise he certainly knows how to treat HIS friends.
There is also a Major scandal regards Utilty Companies who are ripping the Poor off by Taking money from them throught direct debit charges, an increase in Direct debit charges is being made for estimated usage of fuel, to boost their coffers which now stands at a staggerring £700,000 000,
pounds this is EXTORTION,
NEITHER Brown or Darling have interceeded on the public side regards this and just let the Utilties get on with the "Robbery"?
Citigroup have just requested state Help, this now shows that this bail out is going to treble across the board, in the next years, and along with Repossessions this is AN ABSOLUTE SCANDAL CREATED BY THE BANKERS, who are getting away with their greed,it was known by the Treasury that Northern Rock were giving out Morgages at 125%, rate, and they also sat back and did nothing about this
THIS IS NOT THE PUBLICS FAULT YET THEY ARE BEING CRUCIFIED FOR THE GREED OF BANKERS AND FINANCIERS ,
Oh yes, stuff the rest of the World, look after Britain First, its a huge big excuse the involve the rest of the world when our own country is suffering.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Nick I notice that the CBI has come out with a 10 point plan to help businesses and hence reduce job losses. Do you not think it is a bit late? The PBR has been done and dusted.

CBI boss Richard Lambert added: "Given the poor state of public finances any stimulus package will need to go hand-in-hand with a credible framework for getting back on track."

Nick I am a bit puzzled by his remark Given the poor state of public finances. I thought Crash Gordon was a whizz kid with money, certainly not a novice. Please can you help?

Gordon Brown said that he had stopped boom and bust and we did not belive that at the time did we?

How clever was Tony Blair to see all this coming and pass the poison chalice on to his friend!

The increase in the top rate of tax is a drop in the ocean and not worth it's salt. It'll discourage some of the hard working entrepreneurs who we need to stay in this country to provide jobs and tax revenue and panders to the envy culture. Hello Monaco and Dubai!

Obviously you do not read what you reply to or what you use for support.

Certainly, you don't pay attention or communicate your thoughts as well as you believe. That creates a whole bunch of issues like people shouting at or talking across each other. I don't recommend it.

I actually took a positive effort to explain the tax approach and gave you a more polite nudge than your demanding and rude attitude over the Tao and economics. A little gratitude would be nice.

Time to put you back on ignore...

Nick,

now two budgets, now who has been reading your comments, it is not two budgets, it is a Pre-Budget Report and a Crisis Budget, one is a report the other is a budget.

I will say now that he also has to announce an increase to personal allowances taking a large number of people out of the tax net altogether, I would say that before you pay any income tax at all you should have GBP12,000 personal allowance. I would either have that or allow tax allowances to be transferred between married, or civil partnered couples.

He must also announce an urgent inquiry into the feasibility of bringing in a Local Income Tax. It would be very similar to the Poll Tax but would not relate to property values, purely based on income and the number of properties owned. If you have twelve properties, whether or not they are in occupation or not, then you pay the Local Income Tax. Also even if the property is full of students paying rent then you pay council tax.

His proposal to tax those 'earning' over GBP150,000 will mainly effect leaders and higher paid executives of councils, not the bankers. As for the likes of celebrities, who alledgedly earns millions from the BBC, they won't have to necessarily pay any increase in tax. They usually have a production company, and they are paid by their production company and not the BBC.

What needs to be looked at are expenses, you would be surprised at what is allowed as expenses. Doing a travel programme, or looking at apes in Africa, why that is part of your expenses, need special equipment for the programme, expenses, tax allowable. A new suit because you are on TV, expenses. Your garden refit, because you are holding a business conference, allowable expense etc...

To say that taxes should be deferred is a nonsense, all that will happen will be that they will cut and run. This will be a cut and run, scorched earth, crisis budget, based on a Report.

Good grief they don't even mention the wars anymore. We ca't afford them, and furthermore we can't afford to equip our army let alone the armies of the countries which we occupy.

Finally, I really do not want Britain to be in
hock to some pretty awful countries, namely China and Saudi Arabia, 'he who pays the piper, calls the tune' now let's hear you bring that one into your commentary Nick, you've already nicked my 'crisis' budget comment so why not go the whole hog.

Nick,

the new buzz word, this is a 'compassionate' budget. We must be compassionate towards those who have gotten into debt, that is, spent too much, who have over-extended themselves.

You'll notice how yesterday Gordon Brown was slightly hesitant before he used the word compassionate because I will bet that Alistair Darling will use the word a lot in his speech. Darling will be angry because compassion could be the only justification for this crisis budget. How could anybody be so heartless as to throw pregnant women and little babies onto the streets. I bet Darling wanted to be the first to use it, or should I be more compassionate about the Brown motives.

Compassion, now who but a heartless wicked Tory could argue with that. I can see the speech being rewritten already, that T A Griffin has sussed us again.

We are back to 'old Labour'. Wanting to tax the rich till the pips squeak, whilst destroying the very economy that supports the rest of us.

The difference between now and 1979 was that then Labour had scuppered the economy through sheer incompetence.

What Brown is doing now is deliberately leaving as much damage as possible before he loses the next election.

Creating huge debt by borrowing massive amounts of money to 'temporarily' lower taxes will severely hamper any real recovery. He knows this, and must be praying he loses the next election so that he wont have to sort out this mess.

#5. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:

I was a bit puzzled by the reduction in VAT but this is balanced out by the chance of the higher income rate being raised.
Overall, it looks like the sketchy outline of an incomes policy that's in line with historical norms and standards.
I'm generally in favour of that and the cut off point of 150K GBP looks about right.
= = = = = = = = =

Cutting VAT from 17.5 to 15.0% does exactly what for you, Charles?

The reduction in prices will be negligible, and mostly ZERO, for the majority of the population.

If I have £100 disposable income per week, and continue to shop as normal, the propaganda will be that I should save the princely sum of £2.13 (£1.15 for every previous £1.175).

I'm sure you can tell me how much happier that should make me.

But, will prices actually drop by this?

Certainly your new Bentley, Ferrari or 48" Plasma TV will have a big chunk knocked off the price tag.

But I am more interested in my pint of milk, my loaf of bread, my fruit and veg, my daily newspaper, my gas bill...... where there will be NO CHANGE.

Almost everything which attracts the 17.5% rate is already being discounted by more than this measly 2%, while the reduced-rated and zero-rated basics are going up.

If I'm in the super-rich league I have 18 months to take advantage, continue to use my tax avoidance schemes and plan my exit.

If I'm not in that league, then I am stuck with what is being forced upon me and left to pay the Piper when he comes demanding his money back, because the super-rich will have scarpered by then ..... or will have found more devious ways to avoid paying.

I noticed the CBI 10 point plan earlier and wanted to comment on it. It sounds like a vigorous recovery plan on one level but is just another big business call for corporate welfare on another.

The real issue is that business has been very bad at leadership and communication, developing staff, and sticking with suppliers, customers, and staff during crisis. Short term "incentives" won't help that.

Sweating assets and cost cutting is a no-brainer. Hanson did that during the Thatcher years and got rich quick but pretty much destroyed every business he touched, and it ain't gonna work different this time.

I'm worried about this. We're already heavily indebted as a nation. Labour's proposals will mean that, when a global recovery does begin, we will not benefit due to the tax rises needed to repay that debt.

I also think the 45% business is a red herring. The real bearers of the cost will be ordinary folk. Look for big future increases in NI and indirect taxes.

Now would be a good time to emigrate!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Smoke and Mirrors,

Most earners over 150k have tax saving plans so will not pay it anyway...

This is a smoke screen to hide tax rises for middle to low earners.

Just remeber the last 2 minutes of Browns last budget, 2p tax cut headline used to cover up the removal of the 10p band for everyone execpt pensioners (the majority of which actually vote).

After all he is planning to borrow 100% of GDP this or next year (and that excludes off book monies).

Nick

Come on cut through the spin -

SPIN:
Brown wants his supporters to think that he is hammering the very rich, so his massive 'tax bombshell' will not cost them anything.

TRUTH:
Won't raise enough to even start to cover the interest on his new borrowing.

Its just a big headline (with little substance) to distract from the usual nasty small print that Brown always has in his documents.

ps. What are we paying Darling for?

pps. Has mandleson told you about his EU Tariffs talks with Oleg yet ?

Ive just heard that the tax rise will be after the next election so that labour can not be accused of breaking their election promises not to rase income tax....

What was the abolising of the 10p bad? that was a increase in tax...

What was the introduction of "Top Up Fees", a tax on the young wanting to go to university?

What was the abolishng of dividend tax credit... a tax on private pensions

What is the double/tripple CPI garanteed rail fair increases... a tax on the workers.

What was the increase in NI.... a tax on the employed.

And dont even get me started on why my council tax has gone from £679 in 1997 to £2215 this year.

Interesting idea.
Quite a good idea in some respects, explaining what they plan to do after the next election, and it'll be popular with ordinary people.

But would they actually do it if returned at the next election. Probably not. Once the ordinary people on ordinary incomes had returned them, Labour wouldn't care. They've got power again so they would return to doing what they jolly well like irrespective of any criticism. They would no doubt find a way of looking after the big earners in the city.

Remember the pledge not to privatise Air Traffic control...

Labour can't be trusted.

Experience has shown that Labours election pledges are worth as much as the pledge that Neville Chamberlain once famously obtained from a certain foreign head of state...

Whatever the Chancellor does, I am sure will not be bold enough. To be bold, he would need to scrap VAT on Electricity, gas and coal supplies. That would immediately benefit everyone. He should scrap Trident; bring our troops back from Iraq and Afghanistan, and from the billions saved, lower Income Tax rates. Will he do it?. Not on your life. He is too cautious - too "prudent". Too timid.

Nick, when the tories change their minds on their committment to spending it's
"Tories free of spending commitment"
and
"The Tories are no longer committed to matching Labour's spending plans."

When Labour change their minds it's
"Labour set to break pledge over high earners' tax rate"

I am sure that all the sentences you use are factually and gramatically correct just that with the Tories you use warm and friendly words like freedom with Labour you use cold and threatening words like U turn or break of promise/pledge.

"I design electronic hardware, software and firmware for solutions, hopefully, that will help solve environmental problems in tomorrows real world."

Chuck, the bigest thing that the electronics industry can do now is produce solar cells to retail below £100 per 1kw, and an inverter 5kw for under £500. Thus making installing solar panels on 60% of house roofs a no brainer.

At the moment even with the pittifl small grant a 5kw system will take 30years to pay for its self not the 1 to 2 years needed for mass appeal

The real story is not the tinkering around which we are seeing trailed here; it is the changes in the story over the past few days:


https://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/real-story-over-pbr.html

"I design electronic hardware, software and firmware for solutions, hopefully, that will help solve environmental problems in tomorrows real world."

Chuck, you can't do much of it, you seem to spend most of your time on this site writing "deeply meaning" piffle.

Strangly your name doesn't come up on Google to back up your claims.

Strangely, I never said that. It was some other guy who's hiding behind the wall of internet anonymity and carrying a grudge over from an older topic.

In any case don't believe everything you read (or don't read) on the internet. It ain't necessarily true nor is something necessarily anyone else's business.

Oh one one thinh Nick, can you please please introduce a G.Brown Smug-omiter, showing the level of Browns smugness....

It's nearly at 100% at the mo and will go thru the roof after the PBR.

It seems more frightening that Brown and Darling seem to be trying to stage manage the crash story, unfolding it bit by bit with little twists and turns. I am most worried how this story will have developed in 6 months to a years time. I can't help feeling we're in the early chapters and this is not a romantic comedy but rather a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions.

When would they that cower and strain seek to be elected again? And when would we, so dour and slain seek a democratic agenda again?

"I design electronic hardware, software and firmware for solutions, hopefully, that will help solve environmental problems in tomorrows real world."

Chuck, the bigest thing that the electronics industry can do now is produce solar cells to retail below ?100 per 1kw, and an inverter 5kw for under ?500. Thus making installing solar panels on 60% of house roofs a no brainer.

At the moment even with the pittifl small grant a 5kw system will take 30years to pay for its self not the 1 to 2 years needed for mass appeal

Never said what you quoted. I do other stuff.

But, yeah. You've got a real point with that energy thing. I've read stuff on some recent innovations and costs and if we're lucky the energy crisis probably isn't. Plus, if Africa gets its ass in gear it could easily become a net energy exporter.

There's a whole other bunch of technology, business methods, and other stuff people can run with that would give a kick to things and that's where, I believe, the focus really needs to be than dicking with "incentives".

This is really orthogonal to this topic but the general tax issue does, sort of, slot behind developing a better national business plan and attitudes. Hopefully, Nick will have the chance to cover some of that later.

Today I received a mail shot from a so called respectiable loan company offering to lend me £300.00 and with repayments of £10.00 per week sounds good, small print repayment over next 12 months APR 89%.
not so good.

Replace £300.00 with £100,000,000,000. change the time scale with nothing to repay in the first 18 months then only £20 billion extra over your normal payments over the next ten years. Looks like the treasury is being run by the marketing dept of a well known furniture store.

Nick,

if we are to borrow money from Saudi Arabia then there will be strings attached. Let me try this one on you.

Saudi Arabia is a strict Moslem state. So, usary, that is the banks making money through charging interest, something must be done on that.

Alcohol, Saudi Arabia is a Moslem state, so what do you think they want, they know that prohibtion does not work, so what better than to tax our love for alcohol. So, we must disguise the increase as a way to stop binge drinking, but increases in the tax on alcohol, we can't give the masses a tax decrease if they spend it on drink.

Something must be done about gambling, this is also anti-Islamic, and tempts the oil rich play-boys to be naughty boys, so something must be done about that. As well as prostitution, so Ms Smith has already made her announcements on that, can't have women being paid for their favours.

As for China, well we must do something about solving the problems of over production of goods in China, so we must ensure that the money we give back to people is spent on cheap Chinese produced goods, and not those expensive goods from Germany and Japan.

Our employment is now so distorted by public sector workers and those working for Quangos that we really don't register as a real economy anymore. We are all 'whores and pimps' to a labour government.

well nick did you expect this government to keep to any pledges ?.

they have not nor will they all parties make pledges and once in power they reveal their true colours and this government is no different.

could it be that if the public are fooled by truth bending mp's for so long they loose interest and thus more self interested and media obbsessed mp's come to power thus you get neu labour, and todays tory parties.

dont the people deserve what they vote for?
or do the population as a whole deserve better?.

Labour's pledge not to increase taxes on high earners has already been broken!

The 1% NIC increase on income above the higher earnings limit is a tax. They can call it what they want but it's 1% that the Govenment takes out of my salary. It costs me just the same as a 1% increase in income tax.

Why does the BBC let Gordo get away with these lies? The top rate of Government theft from my salary has been 41% for ages. Now Gordo wants to increase the top rate to 46%.

Please BBC, do your job, challenge Gordo on these things. There's no point talking to Darling as he makes no decisions anyway, just does what Brown tells him to do.

Charles at #5 and others: you're obviously at Milbank this morning. Good luck in trying to make all this look sensible: trouble is pretty much everyone can see through it.

Reality: the 45% rate is a gimick designed to shore up core Labour support and re-ignite the good old politics of envy.

Why can we say this with such confidence? Because it will only raise £2/3 billion. But £15+ billion, excluding the interest thereon, is being raised. So call it £18+ billion by 2011.

The real point therefore is: where is the other £16/15 billion (I've included interest to 2011) going to come from?

Let me tell you: cuts in public spending and higher taxes on everyone, not just the rich.

This is typical New Labour spin: get the narrative focussed on the headline you want, deny or refuse the answer the hard qu's about the underlying reality - ie where's the rest going to come from - and bingo, yet another con trick on the public.

Nick - you really are a disgrace for not at least highlighting this. It's pathetic. The press are supposed to highlight fudge, not swallow it hook, line and sinker. The difference between 15 and 2 is pretty obvious, so pls pls at least get an answer for us on where the rest is going to come from?

This tax on the rich is pure political red herring. And there was our PM in DC recently complaining that he regretted Osborne at been 'partisan' when he dared to highlight the truth about sterling. Which btw I am sure will be down today. Just watch.

Nick, you're right in this piece, that they have 'scrapped' their pledge, but not when quoted in the news piece as 'breaking' their pledge. The pledge is always for the next five year parliament. So if they don't introduce higher taxes until after this parliament, they have not broken it.

Quick question - what is your salary? Will you be affected?

I am astonished at how the BBC (esp. Nick Robinson) faithfully reproduce another piece of government spin. All the news bulletins since Sunday have opened with the dramatic announcement (unconfirmed leak, actually) that the government is about to introduce a 45% tax rate; but there is nothing of the sort! Declaration of intent without a timeline or rationale, scheduled to take place "after the elections", are absolutely meaningless. But it grabs the headline, just as intended. So why do the Beeb and its senior editors fall for it (again)?

I've read that there are some economies (Sweden, Australia, even Hong Kong!) where they have budgetary surpluses and are now looking to give these back as a way of riding out the economic turmoil.

Doesn't this give a lie to Labour's defence of their shambolic handling of the economy that it's a "global thing" and no fault of theirs?

Why doesn't the BBC do some research on this point rather than just accepting Brown's excuses?

Nick,

just a couple of things.

Now that Campbell and Mandelson are back providing "advice" to the PM, we have this farce of parliament being bypassed, yet agin. The Autumn budget statement hasn't even been announced, and its content has been forecast and analyzed as if it has already happened. We're being softened up, again, to see what possible measures might provoke a major backlash, and what can safely be incorporated in the next actual budget, if there is such a thing any more. We're going to suffer, and be conned again, and still they can't face up to the absoulte truth.

We are in thsi current mess because, despite all the weaselly words that hevbeen uttered, for the past 11 years we have been over borrwoing and over spoending, and there have been no fall back measures in place for when the hard times come. Basically because Hugh Jeers claimed to have banished boom and bust.

And that brings me to the other thing. Every tenet of the governments fiscal and monetary policies over the past 11 years has now ben broken, and stood on its head, and we are expected to just swallow and say "Thnak you very much, sir". I don't thinks so, and if they think the people are just going to swallow, they're in for a shock.

Hugh Jeers, to quote you, "There is nothing you could possibly say now that I could possibly believe".

You can almost hear the party whips calculators working in this pre advice.
High tax for the rich firms up the left wing of the labour party to balance some cuts in their beloved social security programmes.

The similarities to the depression solutions are striking (it is no coincidence that Obama wants the world to know he is reading up on FDR). One little remembered part of the solution the US implemented was to make it illegal for individuals to own gold. It forced the public to swap solid valuable gold for then worthless US Dollars inflating the currency.
To retain worth this money had to be invested against inflation which pumped the economy.
If you view the solutions coming out piece by piece I content that whilst, such a measure is unlikely to be repeated today (we just wouldn;t stand for it and it decoupled the dollar from the gold standard which can't be done twice), the financial conditions to inflate away the debt are being created and in such a way that they have to be clear but will not be announced as the policy.

Why - because the economy is sated on debt and the only people left who can afford to spend until they drop are those who have been prudent and are not already laden with debt (that can't be paid off) but are savers.

So what the governement is going to try to do is make it clear - your savings will be inflated away and when this is done you will not be able to afford those luxuries you were saving for. So if you want them, buy them now, borrow some money and spend it for tomorrow you will not be able to - we will be taking it in tax or via other measures.

IN this way instead of rewarding the sensible it will try to get the prudent to load up with debt to fuel the inflation to reduce the relative proportion of debt as a function of GDP back to sustainable levels.
The hope appears to be to try to do this in a 2/3 year time frame then when it has to be paid back the increases at the time will appear a little less awful than they do now - imagine - you still have to pay back 100bn but if you have inflated then this appears to be considerably less and hence less painful.

Not really surprising that this is announced, ties in with the banker bashing that Mandelson was doing on the Marr Show yesterday. This is primarily a trap for the Tories, but I suspect that Cameron is too clever to walk into it, unreconstructed Thatcherites like Heffer will scream about it but no one pays any attention to them these days. Vince Cable put it well on 5 Live this morning, this top rate of tax will have minimal impact on revenue as those who will be targetted can afford good accountants who can find loopholes to get through the system such as getting their income assessed under CGT at 18% instead of income tax at 45%. This is the principle behind the Laffer(sp) Curve, the higher the rate of tax the lower the revenue raised.

Nick,

when there are budget leaks should not somebody resign. Where are all these exclusives coming from, who is saying what to whom, is there a yacht moored on the Thames outside Parliament where dinner parties are being held and conversations being recorded. We must be told.

As for your namesake on the Today programme this morning, hey of course it's alright to tell us what is going to be in the crisis budget this afternoon. I mean it doesn't have any effect on the financial markets.

Also nice that he should pick-up on my theme that if you no longer pay a banker a million pound bonus then you don't half lose some income tax and national insurance, that money has to come from soemwhere.

I wonder how soon the VAT changes are meant to come in because I know that it is not easy to change any computer systems without encountering a few problems.

I hope that Alistair has checked with all the systems analysts as to whether or not they can implement the necessary changes in a timely fashion. Oh to be a consultant today, it will make the year 2000 bug a cake-walk.

The COST to industry of a reduction in VAT will be considerable. Reprinted price lists and brochures, changes to websites, reprogrammed computer systems etc etc. Obviously it will reduce the headline inflation rate though, which would otherwise go up massively in a couple of years after Darling's £100bn borrowing spree.

An income tax increase for top earners. Heard that before in the 1970's. Some of us still remember Denis Healey promising to "squeeze the rich".

And in true New Labour fashion, they selectively leaked it to the media in advance.

This all should be good to turn Labour's coming election defeat into a rout. Roll on!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Labour break another pledge - shock.

Fascinating insight.

Whatever the Chancellor does, I am sure will not be bold enough. To be bold, he would need to scrap VAT on Electricity, gas and coal supplies. That would immediately benefit everyone. He should scrap Trident; bring our troops back from Iraq and Afghanistan, and from the billions saved, lower Income Tax rates. Will he do it?. Not on your life. He is too cautious - too "prudent". Too timid.

At a casual level, it looks like things are winding back the mistakes of the past 50 years and putting industry and a fairer society back on the agenda.

The rough outline of the tax plan looks like a groundbreaking shake up of the system, and Mandelson hasn't even got started on a matching plan for business.

People asked what happened to the post war dream. Well, Britain threw it away with bad management and greed. This looks like things are being put back on track.

So, waddya want, fireworks? A pet pony? People can spend so much time wanting stuff that when they get it they miss the moment. Jeez, c'mon. Don't be dumb.

Reality: the 45% rate is a gimick designed to shore up core Labour support and re-ignite the good old politics of envy.

Seriously, the science and historical norms and standards, and public opinion fit this policy like a hand in a glove. It's just a fact. Go check.

The management culture of superstar pay for routine performance has been blown apart, and the corrosive effect on society does drag things down and divide people.

Using loaded words and partisan comment won't change the facts. It just dumbs things down and gets people annoyed, which is why you said it. I wouldn't bother.

#39

Whilst you point is a good one the consequences you theorise are unlikely, the strings are likely to be much simpler.

Do not spend any of it on renewable energy or any technologies for oil/gas replacement.

Job done.

We will then be unable to afford anything not made in China and the Saudis will be quite happy.
In a decade or two then China can ship it's manufacturing to the UK (locally we already have a chinnese factory staffed entirely by chinnese labour - this will then go home and be replaced by us impoverished Brits) and buy cheap goods back from us when they have generated enough of a middle class who no longer wish to work in dirty factories, after all, it will be cheaper to ship many of the raw materials from their African resource base here than it will be to ship to China by then.

China and Saudi don;t have the short term annoyance of democracy to stop them playing the long game. Things which are beneficial for the long term are rarely very popular in the short - hence in the west we will never vote for them.

Dear Nick,
Paul Grey. civil service -
Pay Off £260,000 Benifits Disc scandal
Kevin Boston pay rise
£330,000 Sat tests boss
John Tiner FSA
£445,000
Sir Callum Mcartney FSA
£450,000
cLIVE bRIAULT nORTHERN rOCK,
£883,000 plus £500,000 after resigning over Northern Rock
"BUNGLERS AND THE SCANDAL OF Public sector FATCATS who pocketed Huge rewards for ripping the public off for Failure,"
These people are nothing but leeches,
they know that even if they stay in the job for year, they will receive a massive pay off weither they succeed OR Fail this is NOT Commercialism talking this is the "OLd School Tie", May be EVEN the "MASONS" , this scandal has to stop, these leeches, are degrading evrything the Ordinary man and woman works for,it is they who MAKE AND KEEP this Elite in the way they expect. they are rewarded even if they resign, where as the ordinary worker gets NOTHING,---- even their house This is the British Establishment at work, looking after their own, the rest do not count,
I think the tide is turning, when Companies such as the Utilities, raid direct debit accounts, and force entry into peoples homes by Baliff action to install meters, then we have turned the corner into a Communist regime, this is wrong, and its is unacceptable in Britain today, these people should be reigned in and put in their place, if the general public did this,they would be locked up, and because they are of the OLD SCHOOL TIE, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT they ARE ALLOWED to get away with it. and this why the tax payer is going to suffer to keep the Establishment in the way it has become accustomed.

Top earners to 45% tax ..... a joke.

Top earners are all Limited companies like most of the major BBC Radio or TV Presenters such as 'Wozzy' or Victoria Derbyshire (she told.

For those who are wage slaves that means that they declare a small income of about £7,500 pa, & then declare the rest as 'dividends' on their 'shares', which is at 25% tax (it may be only 20% as well). .... total tax liability on earnings up to £250k is only 20%, less on average than me or you, who earn on less than £100k.

Reforms are needed to tax laws.

The best way of judging how all this will go down with Mr Ordinary, will be to look at the headlines in the tabloids tomorrow.

The vast silent majority of people don't give a damn what is proposed for the short, medium or long term, and as for stimulus, why bother?

These folk will still crowd the "xmas sales" as if there is no tomorrow-"Put it all on the never never- what the heck?" will be the cry.

All this group usually do is look for someone to blame when shot by massive winter fuel bills, threatened job loss and huge council tax rises expected in the spring. They might even go crying to their union bosses and get support for strike action.

One thing though is most likely.They will not vote Labour again.Either Old or New.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

All this guff about taxing folk earning 150,000 at 45% is just a smokescreen.

What's the point of raising 3bn quid if you're squandering 15bn quid?

There are only limited possibilities. Either the 15bn quid simply gets added to the national debt and the 3bn in extra taxes is just to pay the interest. No plans at all to ever repay back the 15bn quid. Typical of this governments approach over the last decade. So possible.

Or the 'squeeze the rich' is just a headline policy to distract from the far higher taxes they'll be raising off middle and low income folk by simply messing with the tax-free allowance or setting VAT at 22.5% at some point in the future.

Or that with the hyper-inflation they're currently teeing up in the pipeline that in a couple of years time the minimum wage will be 150,000 and we'll all be paying 45% tax. But for now, since it only affects GPs and the few people who'll have a job left in banking then most people won't care how much folk earning 150K get taxed.

One thing we know for sure. This budget will not do what it says on the tin. We've already had a 'fiscal stimulus' of 2.5 to 3% of GDP for the last five years or more and we still have a massive recession looming. I don't understand how changing from a 3% 'fiscal stimulus' to a 4% 'fiscal stimulus' is going to make much of a difference. In fact the final deficit this year is projected to be well over 100bn quid. Which looks a lot like 7% 'fiscal stimulus' to me.

So what difference is an extra 1% going to make?

Whose precious jobs will we be preserving with an extra 15bn in borrowing? Retailers? Bankers?

These jobs are only there as a result of the unsustainable debt we've been building up over the past decade. Getting into more debt just to keep folk in their unnecessary jobs for an extra six months or a year is not going to change the underlying problem.

We don't need those jobs. Those jobs are unsustainable. They only exist when government is doubling national debt and house prices treble in a decade. In a balanced economy, balanced budget environment those two million money launderers at the banks and high street stores are superfluous. Likewise the million extra public service 'workers' conjured out of the ether in 2001/2002 by Gordon Brown.

Their jobs don't exist. Their jobs are ephemeral. Their jobs are purely an artefact of a trillion pounds of additional government, business and private debt. Utterly unsustainable.

We simply aren't rich enough either as a government or a population to justify all these banking, retail and public service jobs. Absent the ludicrous levels of borrowing of the past decade then those jobs are utterly unsustainable.

Like the miners.

It's time to let go.

The 'difficult choice' would be to tell the truth.

The easy choice is just to spend even more money we don't have and attempt to sustain the illusion for a while longer.

I wonder which one Gordon Brown will go for. Truth. Or fiction?

Since we're currently all embroiled in Gordon Brown's fantasy-land I'll go for further fiction.

#53

You quote me but partially. Can you also please answer the question I posed?

The government are borrowing £15 billion. They are planning to raise £2+ through this tax on the rich.

Where is the remaining £13++ (once interest is included) going to come from?

Higher taxes on everyone or severe cuts in public spending after the next election?

You seem a well informed, thoughtful and sensible chap. So I look forward to your answer. Thanks.

"Seriously, the science and historical norms and standards, and public opinion fit this policy like a hand in a glove. It's just a fact. Go check."

Umm, what? Science? Are we talking about economics? Its called the dismal science for a reason.

There isn't anything intrinsically moral about taxation, in fact its merely a necessary evil and should be viewed as such. Tax is theft - the idea that a woefully inefficient bureaucracy run by a clique of out of touch and often corrupt politicians can spend my money to improve my life better than I can is ludicrous.

Incidentally the antlike communism espoused by Plato is hardly something to be banging on about either. I woulda thought being a developer you'd know what a Stotle is. ;)

Very few will care too much about the impact on this on the few people it will affect.

The important thing in this announcement is that labour are abandoning the entire income tax pledge.

Once the pledge is gone (under the guise of 5% for £100,000 plus), they will feel free to put up income tax on everyone.

Go on Nick, get a new pledge from them - that this will be the only income tax rise if they are re-elected.

ps. Any update on Mandleson/Oleg?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I agree with other posters who question the nature of this story.

Is not (part at least?) of the story the way in which the BBC is being used as a Government mouthpiece?

"Government Propaganda" is perhaps too emotive a phrase, but it is clear that the initial story was "leaked" to the Beeb and then the Government line has changed with the perceived reaction and further changes to the Government’s plan have also been leaked direct to the Beeb. The BBC is, it appears, being used to by the Government, to announce its headlines.

Surely this is a matter (a) of news itself (don't protect your sources, let us know who is doing what behind the scenes) and (b) an actual, proper source of complaint (regardless of one's political position)?

There is a line to be drawn between scooping other news organisations and simply acting as a PR representative for the Government.

The BBC should be like Caesar's wife - not only be independent, but seen to be independent of ALL political influence.

How stimulated would you be by a new loan that has to be repaid? as compared to a straight cash gift?

If Brown is so sure that this 'stimulus' will work, then why fund it from borrowing? Why not fund it by selling some of the gold that he has left? (he didn't give all of it away did he?)

He doesn't do this because he knows this is a massive gamble that he may well lose. And having given away half of the UK's gold, he doesn't want to be the person who gives away the other half.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Let's get this right.

The government are giving us back 1% GDP in tax cuts?

Food? No Vat.
Energy? 5% rated - no effect.

Consumer goods, cars, etc.

They are being hit by price increases because of weak Sterling. A temporary 2.5% cut in the face of a 25% price rise in imported goods.

Drop in the ocean. Negligible impact.

Explain then, when the economy contracts 2% GDP next year - how to they propose to make up the short-fall?

Those 'evil' bankers and banks were chipping in 40bn in tax revenues.

or 3% GDP.

So really it's a 5% GDP contraction in the government finances or £80bn a year.

Not to mention the lost taxes through unemployment and more costs in extra welfare payments.

Taxing those earning more than 150K?

Dog whistle politics.

Also, no 'leaked' announcement this weekend?

Why?

They wanted to skewer Cameron with it, get him on TV and then have him oppose it.

"Cameron protects the well off" is the headline.

How predictable.

Partisan Brown playing games with an economy on life support to save his miserable career.

Let's face it, it's not as if he had one before politics.

The repayment plan is a mere drop in the ocean to the 300 BILLION that'll be owed and he is not being honest with the public.

Will he tell us how he proposes to pay back the full amount?

No. Because that means electoral oblivion, that's for the next government to worry about.

It will mean this:

No tax cuts for the next 10 to 15 years. In fact, increases are far more likely.

Higher interest rates to make the government debt attractive. So higher mortgage costs for ordinary homeowners.

Sterling in the toilet because no-one wants a currency that under performs.

And an economy that lags in growth behind its competitors.

Which means?

All those pensions, the unfunded state ones and the prudent people with private ones, don't get the investment growth.

So they can expect a much smaller pension in retirement - more strain on the public purse in the long term.

Basically Brown and Darling have wrecked the economy for three generations. Laurel and Hardy economics, another fine Labour mess.

Despite the 'New' moniker, they join that fine rogue's gallery of Callaghan and Healey.

The last time the PSBR breeched 50%.

Not forgetting all the 'assets' we currently have that are off the books.

Devaluing nicely becoming liabilities and nowhere near worth as much as when the government bought them.

And they think they have a chance at the next election?

Dream. On.

The writing is on the wall for any public 'servant' that's not a Doctor, Nurse, Paramedic Policemen, Fireman or Soldier.

We simply can't afford you.

Alistair Darling will say that the income tax rise will only happen if Labour is re-elected




Phhewww thats OK then.... cat in hells chance of that.

I dont like the road we are on just as much as any one else. I really don't here much in the way of alternatives. The economy needs stimulus. The banks around the world have created this mess. The actions of other governments suggest that Brown had to do what he did. I am not putting him on a pedestal but we are where we are. Its easy to moan and churn out the same old anti-government stuff. Anybody, including me, can do that, but at least there is a purpose in their activity. I listened with care to Cameron yesterday and he really has nothing credible to say. About anything. Maybe big Vince at the LIbDems has credability, but will never have the responsibility..

Well here I have even more reason to leave the country.

I work hard, I trained hard and had to fight to get where I am. I did not have a privilaged upbringing but just have a strong work ethic and I am ambitious. I want to show my children that hard work can be rewarded. But I am beginning to doubt it.
So now I must pay more tax to subsidise all those who borrowed too much from sheer GREED. Too many people want everything but wont work for it. They wont buy second hand, they want the latest and they want it now. We waste too much on benefits, we are a nanny state that allows people the choice to work or not (and politicians cant tell me otherwise as they are spineless).
I have a mortgage and no other loans, I went without if I did not have the money. I am in that middle band of people who subsidise the welfare state but will work until 65 as I am not a super earner (I am a higher taxpayer). Too many people do not contribute in this country and I dont refer to immigrants. There are too many lazy, sponging families in this country who cost honest hard working people of all tax brackets BILLIONS so they can have Sky TV, cigarettes, alcohol, Iphones, holidays, cars, free school dinners, free cavity wall insulation and so on. This is the real problem. Taxing the 150k+ people will make no difference. Just make them wonder why should they bother, the country i lucky they bother at all. And I am not interested in any claptrap about equal opportunities and how others have it easy. Pensioners now had it much harder financially than we ever did, they were not greedy. This nation has a massive burder called the welfare state and it needs halving NOW. Its there as a safety net but is now a fishing net. tackle this one governments and you might find some support out there, remain with your insipid vote winning policies and it will only get worse. I now fully plan to leave this country with my family and take my tax contributions with me, I like so many hard working families are fed up with footing the bill for SPONGERS.

63. MaxSceptic

Max your getting nuked. must have found a raw nerve.

What confuses me - and I am easily confused - is:
Banks borrow to keep in their vaults.
Banks charge us more.
Banks will not lend to each other.
Banks pay us less for keeping our money with them.
The economy is in crisis. We are all doomed.
The answer?
I, that is the poorest in the land, must spend, spend, spend money we haven't got.

Er.........

Nick you are a disgraceful reporter

We all know that every hard working Brit will have their direct and indirect taxes increased to pay for this mess by Brown. Why don't you try and get an answer from this unelected man

Brown is ruining the economy, knowing full well that he wont be in power to clean up the mess

That man is a disgraceful PM and is an embarassement to all us English guys

I just wonder why this story is getting so much attention, because its the same empty rhetoric that we've had over the past decade: we might do this, we could do that, we're going to definately do something.... but then nothing happens.
Its all to grab headlines and an impression of the Labour party in the minds of the public without ever delivering on anything.
When Labour commit it to a manifesto for the next election, put it in the news. Until then, it should be a sidenote, not headline news.

Ref #9 etc. Chuck, you are priceless. I have not laughed so much since the last time I passed my fags around in a non-smoking pub.

You are Mr Nick in disguise, aren't you?

A breath of stale air in our otherwise overtaxed, under-appreciated, lied to, Nulab lives.

Bring it on!

Nick,

I listened this morning to the speech given by the chancellor to the CBI this morning. Oh, go on Terry it wasn't the chancellor it was the man who is both Chancellor and Prime Minister. What exactly is the point of Alistair Darling. What exactly is the point of the speech to that thing which passes as parliament nowadays.

What is more important? The murder of the British citizen in Pakistan resulting from a Drone attack from an American 'flown' Predator. Now, we have the appalling situation where an alleged terrorist is killed, mind you they were after somebody else, so I suppose that he is collateral damage.

Patrick Mercer, the conservative, has quite rightly picked up n this one as well, and I congratulate him. If the report on the Today programme is to be believed then for somebody to say 'this country (Britain) is a safer place today' for the death of this man is a travesty of what I know as justice.

If there is a suspected terrorist then they must go through the due process of an arrest, and a trial. Not an execution. This is turning into another day to bury bad news. Watch this space, this is not acceptable.

Mind you by murdering these suspected terrorist it gets away from the jury trials and the expense of keeping terrorists in jail. Also, they can't be extra-ordinary renditioned, if they are dead, can they? We need to know what the policy is. Where is the Milliband person telling us that he wants ptotection throughout the world for British citizens. What just like it says on your passport.

Nick Robinson, Have I missed it but where is your outraged analysis of the pre-budget leaks which have come from the Labour government these last few days?

Today's statement is officially a pre-budget report but the reality is that it is a mini-budget with significant tax changes. We heard a lot from Labour about "a breached convention" - repeated stridently by its media supporters in the BBC and elsewhere - when George Osborne commented on a possible fall in sterling. There was no such convention in Osborne's case but there is about disclosure of budget changes.

With honourable politicans disclosing budget changes is a resigning matter.

With an impartial and vigilent media that is a major story. Why aren't you chasing it?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Where is the remaining ?13++ (once interest is included) going to come from?

Taxes or future growth.

It's doable.

Here's a few 2007 budget quotes from the Great Man himself:

"we will not take risks with or break from the stability essential to our long term economic performance"

"our fiscal discipline is the foundation of the strength of Britain's finances. Our first fiscal rule is that over the economic cycle, government current expenditures are paid by tax revenues"

"next year, in 2008, alongside North America, our growth will again be the highest in the G7 - between 2½ and 3 per cent - with the same rate of growth also in 2009 - under this Government, with stability in this as in every other Budget the foundation, sustained growth year on year"


"after 10 years of sustained growth, Britain's growth will continue into its 59th quarter - the forecast end of the cycle - and then into its 60th and 61st quarter and beyond"

It's a wonder to me sometimes why we don't have more public demonstrations against the liars and charlatans who currently hold public office.

How can Brown sleep at night when he considers what he's done to and intends to do to the economy?

All that guff about the problems originating in the USA is classic Brown-speak.

We've been heading for this day of reckoning for ten years - uncontrolled increases in private and public debt, a price-bubble in the domestic and commercial property market, dreadful waste and extravangance in public spending, an over-reliance on the casino market of spivs and chancers in the City to keep the tax-revenues pot boiling.

I for one, won't be hanging around this country come 2010 to feel the effects of the backlash, when Brown's debts are finally called in.

And one thing's for sure - those responsible in Government won't suffer with their gold-plated pensions to look forward to.

What a shambles!

Hi Nick

This is it, the big one. This is a massive test of the BBC as an independent and bi-partisan media outlet. In short do you nail Labour's lies or go along with Mandelson's narrative?
Er this is the BBC, i.e. pro-Labour, pro-big government, pro-big state big spending, pro-high tax. Whaddaya think?

Do you point out that a 2.5% cut in VAT is trivial?
Do you point out that a 45p tax rate for those earning £150K (or is it £175K) will generate very little revenue and high earners have a habit of disappearing when taxes rise?
Do you point out that our personal borrowing levels are the highest in the developed world (178% of income) this fuelled the mirage of the "Brown Boom"?
DO you ask which other economies are looking at a deficit approaching 10% of GDP?
Do you ask why Northern Rock and B&B
had to be bailed out of supposedly an American economic problem? They are British banks, lending only in the UK in a regulatory structure designed by Mr. Brown

I fear that your BBC coverage will be little short of a Labour Party Election broadcast.

Re-arranging the deck chairs - the sum raised is equivalent to a rounding error in department budgets.

This is the equivalent of the 10p budget - pure politics designed to wrong foot the opposition and lay down a false trail for the newshounds. As usual, their noses are to the ground and their tails are wagging -meanwhile the real story could emerge this afternoon.

Let's wait to hear what Darling has to say about reducing waste in public spending to help defray the enormous level of debt we are all due to be saddled with.

Hello - why wait for 11 years to tackle waste?

Could it be because Brown created it?

Max,


What is happening to your comments - everything is being referred??!!

The thought police appear to be out in force today.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Latest poll from ICM:
Conservatives lead Labour by 11 points

https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/

I doubt the beeb will shout as loud as when the MORI came back with a 3 point gap.

Well - if the leaks are true - then clearly there is even more evidence that Gordon and the gang are just way out of their depth and are just thrashing about trying to save their reputations, rather than do anything to benefit the country.


I'm not old enough to remember the last time they bankrupt the country - so I'm looking for some assistance....:

My concern is that if sterling crashes my savings will become worthless, like Zimbabwean currency. If there is anybody with experience of the last time / financial nous out there - my question is "should I exchange my sterling savings for gold?"

#79 - not a great answer! Taxes on whom? This is a £13 billion++ hole. The rich are already paying an extra £2 bn. Even taking their tax to 50% still leaves a hole of £11++ billion. Bottom line in your tacit admission: we're all going to pay higher taxes. If that's Labour policy, that's fine. You just need to sell it to us, the taxpaying public. No need to be underhand about it. We can then decied for ourselves. Thanks for the admission.

Nick, please note. Please ask GB and AD how the rest of us are going the pay. The rich pay an extra 5% tax. What will the rest of us have to do to fill the hole?

No-one has reported this...

Once the national debt ballons by another 300 Billion.

at 5% interest...

That's 60 BILLION a year in interest.

or twice the defence budget.

Future growth?

Yeah, future growth over about 20 years.

Not exactly one economic cycle (approx 10 years) is it?

This is a UK problem, not a US one.

Why isn't the UK doing what Ireland is doing?

Slashing government spending, slashing corporation taxes and introducing austerity measures.

Oh, because the public sector is beyond reproach.

Or is it they vote Labour?

76 - Your comments are as disgraceful as those of Mercer and Dinsmore - both of whom should be SACKED by their Leaders.

If true,the death of Rasheed Rauf should be welcomed.He is not "an alleged terrorist", he is a convicted terrorist of the worst kind.

Maybe the US nad UK should send a few more drones and target these excuses for mankind.

I find it incomprehensible that any MP,least of all a Tory MP,I expect better from them,Labour has always had weak apologists for terrorists,can stand up for the human rights of a convicted killer.

Lets consider the human rights of those hundreds Rauf has been complicit in murdering and the thousands he may have been complicit in killing had he been allowed to remain free.

There is no excuse for Muslim/Islamic fundamentalists killing innocent people wrongly quoting the Koran - or any other scripture - to stand by and to complain about it is in my opinion as bad as taking sides and supporting it.

Mercer and Dinsmore should be ashamed of themselves.

Nick,

your blog has become the source of such brilliant stuff. We now know that labour party officials are scanning your comments even as we speak. Speeches rewritten right up to the point of delivery, this is brilliant, really cool.

I think that you are what is called a wind-up merchant, a bit like me if you like. Somebody has to say something so that others can comment about it. For example, some stories just die, they disappear without trace, only they don't really. They go into hibernation.

What I always will remember is the Watergate scandal with Nixon. I saw the first reports and then wondered just why it disappeared. What was going on. It was, to put it mildly, quite an interesting story that some people had broken into a room and stolen some political stuff. But it just disappeared.

Only some sort of journalists from the Washington Post would not let it go, they perservered, they eventually got to the truth and exposed the awfulness of the Nixon regime.

I like to think that you actually know more than you let on, but can't tell us. You and the BBC can only hint and leave us to get to our truths. It is the lies we were told over Iraq, they will not go away, the complicity of those now in power, I for one will probably go to my grave shouting and screaming that these politicians have blood on their hands. I can say it, you cannot. You have a job and a career.

Do you know that is why I feel so ashamed about what happened to Dr David Kelly, and Mr de Menezes, and all the soldiers who have died, because of a lie.

Oh, just to go off on a tangent for a moment, incinerators for disposal of recyclable material. They must be built, to generate the energy we will not have because of lack of power stations. Every community must have one, you produce the waste, so you must be responsible for its disposal. we are after all being told that this waste is now building up all over the country because nobody actually wants it.

Oh, and house building. How on earth can anybody complain about the destruction of the countryside if it means that there are jobs for the construction industry. Destroy the country to save the economy.

Nick,

You must be as old as me, therefore you must know what it was like to watch the death throes of previous governments. Surely to goodness even you can recognise that this government is just about dead, and all that it is now doing is thrashing around mindlessly. There is no sanity in accepting that a future 45% tax rate on incomes above 150k will solve the problems that will be created by large scale borrowing to allow a general tax cut to-day.

I tuned into 5 Live this morning only to hear Nicky trying to get Cameron to oppose the proposed tax rise (that hasn't even been announced). Likewise, Marr giving Cameron a hard time yesterday, having missed the opportunity to do likewise to Mandy only moments earlier. Rather than trying to solve the long term problems - Brown is only out to try to wrong foot the Conservatives with little or no thought for how we need to deal with the current financial meltdown.

What is worse however is the way in which Mandy and other Labour ministers are getting an easy ride from the Beeb when they go on and on endlessly blaming our problems on everyone else. You should try reading Dominic Lawson's article in the Sunday Times - perhaps then you might (just might) begin to understand that there are two sides to this story, begining with how on earth we go into this mess in the first place.

#67 - ...Flanflinger - I can't say that I found your post particularly appealing, but I agree with most of the analysis. However, the one group of people you forgot to point out as being relatively safe are those that work for the Beeb - public sector workers in all but name.

In answer to a Parliamentary question in 2006, the Treasury said that a 45 percent rate on those earning over £150,000 would raise only £1.2 billion.

Where does the £2-3bn come from? No analysis of the underlying benefit claimed by LuBab from the beeb, let along highlighting in the strongest terms that its a purely political move on a day we were promised that Brown would do "whatever it takes".

....and VAT. Aren't prices being slashed by more than 2.5% anyway in a bid to try and move stock (M&S 20% off day, etc) without success...?

Worse than useless. Watching his smug performance on Marr yesterday, anyone would have thought that he'd won X-Factor rather than knowingly led the UK to the abyss.

Expect Weimar-style repudiation through inflation.

It's the only way out NuLab have left us.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

How about making it 50p in the pound and doing something to raise the lower paid out of income tax altogether?

It is time to remodel the tax system to reward real hard work.

New Labour is far too conservative!

Surely Darlings biggest opportunity is to tighten up on tax evasiona nd fraud.

Offshore and via bogus and false accounting at home.

He has the opportunity not only to scrap planned reductions in HM Customs and Revenue staff,but to INCREASE them and to target them at the anticipated £15b/£20bn PER ANNUM blagged and deceitfully stashed abroad and in tax havens.

He should also impose an immediate windfall tax on utilities,place an immediate law banning them form raising prices over the rate of inflation and if they dont and wont comply he should re-nationalise them for £1 -

That potentially can raise another £20bn over the next 18 months or so.

With respect to mortgae reposessions,12 month amnestys like the Daily Express are calling for are frankly barmpot - if mortgages are'nt paid Lenders i.e banks will go bust - a better solution is to say if you maintain regular payment of a minimum of 80% of interst due - you cant be reposessed if you do this for 6 consecutive months and arrears then have to be capitalised.

He could reduce I/Support on mortgage payments down for 9 months to around 3 months BUT limit it to interest on only the first £150k of any mortgage - removing the anomoly of the 80's and up to 1995 when millinaires had mortgage payments made for them after claiming benefit for 8 weeks.

Finally,some of the calls on Nick Robinson are again absolutely disgusting - unless he comes out and issues a rabid pro Cameron comment most will slag him off - all WE THE MAJORITY of sensible people ask for is fair reporting of the actual measures,fair reporting of the actual debate and serious analysis after the event....not pre-judged dogma!

Why all this bleating about leaks?

Does'nt matter what political party was making todays speech - there would be leaks....

Get over it!

Be prepared for flim-flam and smoking mirrors. GB will state that the world acknowledges that we need a stimulus to avoid a very deep depression and that may require increased borrowing. What he will fail to admit that the rest of the world is not already in hock to its eyeballs, unlike UK.

He will offer VAT reductions (which will save most of us a few pounds a month) and promise us tax increases that will cost us pounds a week.

I would urge everyone to squirrel away any potential pennies that Brown directs Darling to give us cos we will need to find pounds in 2 years time.

And those who can afford to emigrate should start packing our bags. Who know's even Zimbabwe may be a more attractive proposition by then!!

#89

Neither is there any excuse for misleading this country on the back of a PhD thesis plagarised by the Labour Party and spun as intelligence.

Nor hounding a thoroughly decent man and WMD expert to death.

Nor sending our fine armed forces badly equipped to fight.

Nor allowing our Commonwealth soldiers right to stay having done their duty.

Whether or not this man was or was not a terrorist is moot.

The fact is, Labour's prosecuted a war on shaky evidence and in a half-baked approach. Oh how you throw your hands up in disgust at a mere suggestion of juris prudence but turn a blind eye to Guantanamo Bay?

There are British families losing fathers, mother, sons and daughter.

Helicopters promised that never arrive.

Snatch Land Rover relics not fit for duty.

Our injured and maimed not given the care and dignity they deserve.

Faux outrage for political point scoring is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Labour's has nothing but contempt for the military covenant.

So button it.

Gloom and Doom is everywhere but perhaps it should be called realism.

This from CNBC last Friday. If you get a chance look at the video at
https://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=935472423&play=1

Anyway to quote{-

It's not preferable, but all major U.S. financial companies will eventually be under government control because the alternative is so much worse, Hugh Hendry, chief investment officer at hedge fund Eclectica Asset Management, said Friday.

"All financials will be owned by the U.S. government in a year," Hendry said. "I bet you."

Nationalizations take dramatic losses from the private sector and places them on the larger balance sheet of the public sector, he said.

"It's not good," but society is vulnerable and society is going to have to intervene, Hendry said.

Shareholders Should Get Nothing

Because the taxpayers are forced to foot the bill for bailout out the banks, shareholders shouldn't be compensated, Hendry added.

(Watch the accompanying video for Hendry's full comments...)

"Actually the shareholders of Citigroup have looked the other way for more than a decade" while management took excessive risk, he said.

Shareholders should take nothing away if it is nationalized, because the taxpayer will be "paying this for a long, long time," he added.