Lots of work for Kremlinologists

Isn't this called 'Damning with faint praise'?

The collective silence from cabinet ministers over the weekend was enough to do for Brown.

The deckchairs will be arranged on the Titanic.

Can't wait for the labour party conference.

The king is dead, long live the king!

Nick,

I totally agree. Going further, none of the cabinet are able to even paint a picture of the vision and strategy of our government.

If they had a vision and strategy, they would say this is where we are going. This is why we are moving in this direction and because of that these are the reasons that Gordon is the right person to lead the delivery of that vision.

I would say that this is because Labour no longer has a plan.

Not one of the Cabinet inspires as a potential successor to Gordon Brown. When they talk about the future they just use bland meaningless words regarding 'change'.

If they fell Gordon Brown it seems that they will still be rudderless.

The current inertia is probably because they are trying to come up with a plan of substance on the back of the time honoured fag packet.

It all sounds like internal manouvering in preperation for the leadership fight.

Some are thinly disguising the instruction to wait until after the loss in the election.
Some are saying lets lop off our head now!
Some are thinly disguising that they will go for it now if enough others want them too.

There is no unity in the Labour party.
I think many are hoping for a little accident, possibly with the salmon moose, on the eve of conference.

Gordon has finally found something we can be number one at, he is taking us down the pan and he is racing the US to get there first. Many economies will survive this ours won't thanks to Prudence, unfortunately she was miss named and took the country for every penny she could get when she divorced Brown in 2001, Its taken while for the settlement to come through but now it has our cupboards are bare.

Geoff Hoon should understand that people will only be distracted by a Labour leadership battle as a bull is by a midge.

Lack of clarity and conviction from the lot then.

Tis a murky world.

Like the Kremlinology analogy, very apt.



Wonder if any of them are actually doing anything useful at the moment.

I would say that this is because Labour no longer has a plan.

Of course Labour has a plan. This year they will, due to 'Global factors beyond their control', borrow about 80bn quid. For 'investment in infrastructure'. Next year (2009/2010) They will borrow 120bn quid for 'investment in infrastructure'.

They will also re-jig the 'independent' BoE's remit to completely ignore inflation to whatever criteria will allow the BoE to cut interest rates to 3%. If (say) Mervyn King resigns in protest of this trashing of the currency he will simply be replaced by somebody more amenable to being told what to do. Likewise any 'independent' members of the committee.

That is their plan.

That is why the pound is down the toilet despite having higher (at only 5% - remember - that's not 'high) interest rates than the Euro-zone or the dollar. Because the international community has got out it's economic/political text-books and cross-referenced what happens to spending, indebtedness and financial disaster when Labour is in power and is acting accordingly.

I don't expect them to be proven wrong.

Now listen I am getting very annoyed. These are the comments I made yesterday #133 on Rebel Tactics:-

'I can now see why some compared him to Stalin, anybody who is not for me is against me, and I will have no challenge to my authority. Can we soon expect some show trials, recant or else. Oh for a modern day Shakespeare'.

These comments should also be read in conjunction with support from David Millibland.

I don't know, must everybody follow the Griffin.

Where is the government commentary about the financial meltdown in America. We have had 9/11 and the War on Terror, well put it in your diaries, this day will go down in history, 9/15, Great Depression II.

Some people ought to go back to read their Shakespeare, money has made us all pimps and whores. If you want to know try reading Faust/Mephistopheles Part 1,scene iv.

In fact this is actually turning into a Faustian tragedy.

Its not quite vultures circling round the corpse at the moment, more like a pride of lions holding back for the right moment to move in for the kill. Trouble is when Brown is toppled its not going to make much difference to the fate of the party or government who's in charge. It feels like ministers are positioning themselves for picking up the pieces post election defeat because no one realy has the stomach or the bottle to put the knife in now. I think despite all the posturing Brown will stagger on to lead Labour to catastrophic defeat at the next election, and then will be unceromoniously dumped. Milliband and co are too clever to take over as captain of the ship just before it goes down, better to rally the survivors in the life boats and look to the future.

Three things really
a) if the man at the top is a ditherer, as GB is, then it can't be surprising that the Cabinet are as well
b) As GB showed how not to be loyal,its also can't be a surprise that he does not attract loyalty himself.
c) This years Labour conference may be good viewing, although I thought Labour had banned blood sports ?

The first thing Labour could be getting on with is updating their budget predictions to move from their made-up number of 2.5% growth to -1% or -2%, just to show that they have a plan for how this country will deal with the slowdown/reversal, rather than repeating the moronic line/spin that Gordon's listening and will do what's best for the country. Let's see some numbers, if you want to start regaining the trust and confidence of the country!

Now he even has his party dithering; the infection has spread from just Gordon.

It must be so frustrating for ministers like Purnell and Millipede to have a prime minister who, just like a petulant child, is constantly asking for 'five more minutes' before being packed off to bed.

Does anyone know how long the shortest standing ovation for a party leader at a conference has been?

Just curious...

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There's never been a PM in history so quickly deemed as useless as Gordon Brown.

I really do think we're panicing a bit. Everyone reads too much into the polls and its what seems to be driving the Labour backbenchers to speak out. Selfish individuals fearing for their own seats.

I really think Gordon Brown is, and will prove to be a better Prime Minister than people think.

We always do this, be it in politics, celebrities or football, as soon as things get tough or things arent quite going how we like, we all start demanding for change, somehow thinking it will make it all better. Is it really Mr. Brown's fault that the prices of everything are going up? Of course not, but people hurt most in their pockets and i cant help but think that if Mr. Brown does go / is forced out, people will look around and think 'well, whats changed?'

...and if the Tories do come in, i think people will soon start thinking 'wouldn't it be nice to have that Mr. Brown back'

Regardless of whether or not GB is the right person to lead the country, the truth is that he's got zero momentum, and the leadership mutterings are getting louder. That's not good for anyone. Either he needs to pull a big rabbit out of the hat in the near future, or face it head on and embrace a proper leadership contest (that didn't happen before). I guess he believes he can just tough it out, but if he's wrong, what are the consequences for hm, the Labour Party and the country? The Labour conference will hopefully sort this out one way or another.

I think all this talk of Miliband et al forcing a leadership contest is nonsense.

It's just the wrong time.

There is likely to be a period of stagnant growth (positive year-on-year growth, but a shrinking economy on a quarter-to-quarter basis).

The Government is extremely unpopular - it's Cameron's election to lose, and there are little signs of that happening, regardless of who's in charge. The Conservative view - that the recession is all the Government's fault, most spending has been wasteful appears to be accepted by many in the country (regardless of its truth). There does not seem to be a way back, especially with the stagnation in the economy likely to last until the election.

What do Miliband or others have to gain from becoming leader now? Pressure for an early general election, difficulty in trying to reform the party, and an early landslide defeat to Cameron, all of which will start them off on the back-foot.

From their perspective it's surely better to let Brown take the hit and to be a fresh start. If there is a leadership contest, maybe a caretaker leader (e.g. Straw) would be the answer for Labour (minimise losses by getting rid of Brown and keeping the future leader free from being tainted by a likely landslide defeat in 2010)

Surprised backbenches want a contest - the pressure to go to an election (at which Cameron is likely to win a landslide) will be immense...

Nu-Labour? Nu-Weasels.

...and if the Tories do come in, i think people will soon start thinking 'wouldn't it be nice to have that Mr. Brown back'

Stranger things have happened. Right now people are thinking wouldn't it be nice to have that safe pair of hands, John Major, back. Oh, if only we had a teensy recession like the 1990's to look forward to.

The Brown Bust. You'll be able to read about it in the history books for generations to come.

Brown is a rabbit in the headlights trying to look cool (and failing miserably).

Like a Cycle Persuit race, each candidate is waiting to see who (if anyone) makes a break first.

The thing they fear most, is that if there is a competition, that they miss out on it.

Selfish, self-interested morons to a man (and woman) - much in the model of their (current) leader.

Brown is the cuckoo who spent a decade ensuring there would be no worthy competition -- however he has clearly set the bar so low, that in the eyes of the public, evan a dead-sheep would be in with a good chance of relacing him.

Nick

Why aren't you at the Liberal Democrats conference?

I think the ideas being put about by Cleggie and Cable are far more interesting than reading between the lines about who thinks what in a failed government.

Labour is dead. Good riddance! However, lets have a look at the alternatives before we have to face the prospect of voting.

There is likely to be a period of stagnant growth (positive year-on-year growth, but a shrinking economy on a quarter-to-quarter basis).

I'd say year-on-year growth will be lucky/rigged to show a positive over the calendar year 2008. From the end of Q1 2008 to Q1 2009 it will be negative and it will remain negative up until the (projected) election in 2010.

The only way these predictions will prove unfounded is by absolutely monumental amounts of further government borrowing and squandering. 100bn a year plus. Or, as I'm sure it will be coded, 'essential investment in infrastructure'.

This economy is shot. It's going to take a lot of pain to turn it around. I wouldn't want to be starting from here. And I particularly wouldn't want to have a socialist control freak like Gordon Brown starting from here. Because this is just the beginning of how bad it's going to get with him in control. He is a one-trick chancellor.

Borrow. Tax. Squander.

Make that three tricks.

It is a bit like a party which is winding down, and one of the guests shows no sign of going home, and he has overstayed his welcome, and just is not picking up on any of the hints that it is time to call for the taxi and head home...

Take the hint, Gordon...

The Conservative view - that the recession is all the Government's fault, most spending has been wasteful appears to be accepted by many in the country (regardless of its truth).

Most spending has been wasteful. 'Improvements' in education are not due to a succession of glass and steel monuments to learning constructed at vast cost. They are due to making exams so simple to pass that amoeba are getting straight 'A's.

Productivity in the NHS has actually gone down despite the bazillions squandered on shiny new glass and steel structures with free car-parks for all the million new functionnaires Gordon Brown 'employed'. The doctors cut such a laughably one-sided deal with the incompetent health secretary at the time (40% wage increase plus an extra 5,000 quid if we make ourselves available at weekends) that 95% of doctors promptly went to a three day week for the same money they were getting before.

Weekends? Ha ha ha. Yeah, right. For an extra 5,000 quid a year? Even the paper-boy gets more than that.

This government demands a new definition of the word 'incompetent'. This government goes to bed at night, hugs its pillow and dreams of being merely 'incompetent'. Shakespeare' language, the English language has no word even approaching the scale of this government's incompetence.

Those who lived as adults through the 1970s might disagree of course. They've been here before. Now I fully understand what they mean by the phrase 'Labour government'.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The problem for New Labour is not who is the figurehead but their repeated failure to manage the economy. There still are not any signs of any strategy to get on with the act of governance.

We are at the natural end point of a hands-off approach to the economy where markets forces - or more correctly market manipulation be interested parties - have led us. Self regulation by private businesses is a weak tool, as is the pretence that replacing a monopoly with a cartel makes any difference.

Indications of the role that Labour see for themselves are in one of the first things they did when coming to power. That was to pass the setting of interest rates, coupled to very restrictive formula to the Bank of England. To be honest it is highly unlikely that you need the BoE, the WI could do it, the BoE have so little room for manouevre within the rules that there was little point in pretending they are independent. This doesnt stop the government saying it is nothing to do with us, it is the BoE that is responsible for interest rate. It is not our fault if things dont go well.

This pretence that robust system(s) are in place and proactive economic management is in action when it is not is fundemental to the problems that are showing up. We have a government which seems to think its job is to implement ever restrictive rules and regulations on what it's citizens can do at quite a petty level yet at the most important strategy end the cupboard is bare. It is hands-off, let the market sort it, put regulators in place who do not have the tools or power or backbone to regulate, who are too slow to act or to develop new regulation tools in a fast moving senario and have little if any mandate to do so.

Meanwhile short term quick yield private companies like the banks and energy companies run the economy and cook the books. And the government says it is nothing to do with us.

The self dellusion this government has about the boundaries between governemnt and private business is shown clearly with the fuel help policy which will simple push up fuel bills across the board for every household and is another grossly inefficient implementation involving admin and high installation labour costs and a up to 10 year wait. It is also simple an extension to a scheme already in place. Like new seems to come out.

There are fundemental problems with the way Labour view accountability and responsibility which were again highlighted when a minister recently said he was accountable but not responsible. The two are intertwined, if you are accountable you are responsible. This is the very basic problem with Labours whole strategy - they do not understand the act of governance. They wish again and again to devolve governace to independent bodies or private businesses who have agendas which have little to do with governing.

The message from the governemnt is wait and it will all come right, lets just stay hands-off. we have nothing new to say or do. It is most unlikely that what is an inbuilt cultural problem with New Labour will be sorted by changing who is at the top.

Just a little bit of news reported on Radio 5, which may be of interest.

It is reported that Pakistan fired on some American planes which overflew Pakistan airspace. No violations of Pakistani Territory will be tolerated.

Now then can we take it that British and American forces are not operating in the border areas to Aghanistan and Pakistan, and sometimes going over the border, into Pakistan.

Now I think that Gordon Brown will announce to cheers that British troops are to be withdrawn from Iraq, however they will have to be sent to reinforce our defeat in Afghanistan.

Russia was bankrupted by its Afghanistan excursion. The same is happening to America, apart from anything else it can't afford these wars. Americans are not happy about their recession and the fact the billions are being spent to fight wars.

So, while we have concerns about the economy, and the politicians we are losing site of the disaster unfolding in other areas of the world. Millibland ought to do his job trying to sort his job as foreign secretary before he can even think about running this country.

Can't wait for the governmnet reshuffle.

Cut off the Chicken's head and the carcass still flails around blindly in the yard. Same will happen with Labour without the clunking fist at the helm, steering us to disaster. Labour MP's should start looking in the jobs sections, they're doomed.

Don't worry ... PMQs will be back soon and then Gordon can confirm by how much Tractor production is up.

6 carrots


Lack of clarity and conviction from the lot then.

Tis a murky world.

Wonder if any of them are actually doing anything useful at the moment.

You were talking about Cameron and the invisibles weren't you. Carrots

Its all about applying pressure on Gordon to do the honest thing and fall on his sword. They all know to force him out is not an option and would harm the Party and the individuals concerned.

The trouble is he aint gonna go withought a fight. I really feel for Gordon, but on the other hand his stubborness is just selfish. The longer it goes on the more the public will rally against him.

So next steps? Looks to me like the way forward is to apply more pressure on GB at conference. More and more members will be asking for change and hint at the likelyhood of a disasterous election, but will fall short of wanting to push him out.

The big question for the Labour party now is, do we risk loosing the next election with a respectable amount of seats held, or do we let this continue and risk a really disasterous result that could take 2-3 parliaments to undo ?

Yond’ Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.

Julius Caesar (1599) act 1, sc. 2

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More entomology than Kremlinology....

The true inhabitants of the Kremlin have a better assessment of the worth of Miliband and other Nu Labour ministers.

As Sergi Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister said to Miliband: "Who are you to lecture me?". Though he did add a naughty word....

I'd like to think he speaks for us all!

Brown is a disgrace.

He's just sacking anyone and everyone who calls for a leadership contest.

No wonder the Cabinet aren't calling for one.

BROWN OUT!

Labour on the verge of destruction

Poor old Gordon, the clock is ticking.

At least the BBC is being more sensible than when John Major was in power when it was trawling for rebels to appear in studios in order to discredit the government and magnify the rebellion. This time round the rebels are largely being kept away from the microphones.

As regards to analysis – I think you should leave that to voters. No matter how neutral you try to be, any analysis you provide is bound to have an angle to it and therefore have an undue weighting on our democracy.

24. U9461192

You do the doctors a disservice:

They didnt cut a deal, the government threw them a pot of gold. At first they thought the offer was a joke.

A classis case of how socialists just dont understand how organisations work and what makes them tick.


https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6314301.stm

The fact that there is no-one willing to challenge for party leader just confirms to me that they are all a bunch of talentless no hopers able to do the job.

Re - Afghan Can our estemed government advise the true total financial cost, (let alone the casualties) to the UK of the ghastly pantomime in Iraq and Afghanhistan.

It was standing in the Billions at the end of the first year but its been Mums the word for a long time.

Whilst they are at it can they also advise the last time any foreign country militarily went to Afghanhistan and won.

Just another Labour ego trip and total lack of reality. I still find it difficult to understand that when asked by Blair about war in these regions that Paddy Ashdown said that he thought a surgical in and out was practical, I thought Ashdown had been in the Army, he certainly did not read Military History. His idea of surgery has more to do with Jack the Ripper than keyhole surgery.

30. grandantidote

Glad to see youre back on form.

Weve missed you.




Oh yes and NO..... I wasnt.

The Labour Party has suppressed dissent to the point that constructive criticism was not tolerated. So there are no clearly formed lines with Brownites and Blairites but also Old and New Labour. Change is impossible in the Labour Party - the Stalin jibe is quite accurate in some senses.

If Gordon does not go quietly there is a bloodbath at the polls until the next election and they lose very very badly. Will there be much of a Party to take over by that time?

If Gordon does go quietly you can only have a caretaker like Straw or a compromise candidate. Would such a candidate survive the inevitable general election let alone win it? The plus for them is they might start the process of rebuilding and possibly slide some of the economic blame onto the Tories.

But once it becomes clear that the only way is down for Labour then I think we will see vicious civil war for a while. If Scotland becomes independent then that will take yet more base power away from Labour.

Ultimately if Honest John Major feels sorry for Brown the future is very very bleak.

re: 34

That was brill wasn't it? Milibland the cowardly, lightweight, treacherous backstabber should go back to school.

Gordondammerung, with a full cast of Rhinemaidens! Many are auditioning for Hagen.

The trouble with trying to predict what politicians will do next is that they are not like us.

We live in the real world and have real concerns and a pragmatic view of life.

They live in the Westminster Hothouse, and have invented concerns and a frankly unreal view of the world.

The factor that Labour MP's will currently be weighing will be the likelhood of their own survival following yet another unopposed, unelected, undemocratic leadership transition. Should a change of leadership come, it will of course be unopposed. I can't imagine they would find two people foolish enough to run.

I imagine Gordon will be allowed to crash and burn to glorious defeat in 2010, unless he has an outbreak of sanity and resigns first.

If they have a leadership election before the General election, they will just be exchanging the scapegoat for the Judas goat.

32. DistantTraveller


And Marcus Antonius tries to soothe Caesar: "Fear him not, Caesar, he's not dangerous, He is a noble Roman, and well given."

Ironically, the superstitious Caesar, who sees through Cassius's noble exterior, will die, while the deluded Antony will survive to avenge him, and later to take power.

#18 power_to_the_people

Pop goes the weasel!

I hope when Cameron is elected he actually does cut spending. It's insane to continue on Labour's path of tax and spend but as yet Cameron has made no promises.

#22
the best projections of e.g. IMF, OECD, EU and other non-governmental sources is for a technical recession (i.e. 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth) combined with year-on-year growth remaining positive. Though of course there are risks on the downside (but risks on the upside too) as with any projections of the economy.

As for a 'socialist control freak' - Socialist? New Labour have largely accepted the Thatcherite/Neo-Con consensus in most areas. Control freak? You mean holding people accountable for their results through targets right? Isn't that called 'management' in the private sector?

I addressed the points on borrowing on a previous thread - the one about Harman's social mobility speech (e.g. the IFS says that the structural deficit is lower now than it was in 1997; borrowing, even including PFI deals, is lower now than in 1997; public services are better, investment in infrastructure is far higher).

#24
blah,blah,blah. Productivity 'falling' is no surprise - it is because of increases in wages given to public sector workers. Labour had to solve the 1979-1997 government's unsustainable squeeze on public sector wages. Otherwise, teacher quality would continue to decline over time. Maybe making teacher quality worse is, in your view, the best way to improve education. Interested in that argument.

Where is John Reid? He's nowhere to be seen.

Is he patiently waiting or will no one cut short their political career by steering the party into inevitable election meltdown. Go back to you constituencies and prepare for opposition.

e.g. try [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] for a look at the impact of declining pay of teachers during the 1980s/early 1990s.

Pay increases were necessary to improve quality. This obviously had an impact on productivity

#32

Nice one but please give credit to #8.

Can we expect to see more quotes from Shakespeare.

It's carnage on the Stock market, where is a government spokesman, like the Prime Minister, telling us not to worry, it's not as bad as it seems.

Only trouble is that any words uttered by anybody attached to this awful government will only exacerbate the situation. Their words will come back to haunt them. 'The pound in your pocket' or 'crisis what crisis', or even te classic piece of paper being waved n the air and 'peace in our time'.

Abandon hope all you who enter here.

#24

Not only did newlabour strike this ridiculous deal with doctors to work less for more pay but they also struck another blow for incompetence in their negocaitions with contractors.

Now the shiny new glass and steel buildings are finished in the health and education sector 121 contractors are being investigated for price fixing... newlabour ripped off yet again and squanering tax payers money.

It makes the Paulson affair from the 70s look like a wee timorous mousie. A bit like newlabour policies these days.

30. grandantidote

Goodmorning
Once more unto the breach dear friend!

Don't let them get you down, we are all in for tough times.

Gordon Brown was well suited to the job of Chancellor, but the 'election that never was' showed his shortcomings as pm.

We face a Conservative Government in two years and it requires a high profile cabinet minister to sacrifice their own career by standing against Brown now. Why is it a sacrifice? Because, like Michael Hesseltine brining down Mrs Thatcher, somebody else will get the prize of being PM.

Unless somebody does it, the dark days of the Tories will return. Keeping their powder dry until the election (defeat) of Brown does none of us any good.

I seriously dislike journalists (who are supposed to have some grammatical knowldge) using the nominative case when they should use the accusative.
"... for we Kremlinologists to do .." is a disgraceful example of writing by those who use "he and I" for example in an effort to be what they think is clever and indeed make themselves look idiots.

It simply shows up their dreadful lack of education.

No doubt at school during a period of Labour government hey?

"Where is John Reid? He's nowhere to be seen."


Must be with Harriet.

Mark my words, it's HH that's going to come through. Harriet Harman, Prime Minister.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

IMF Projection - found the data now from their most recent update (6th August) https://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pn/2008/pn0899.htm

I quote:
"Real GDP Growth is projected to be 1.4% in 2008, falling to 1.1% in 2009" (2 sentences before the bold heading "Executive Board Assessment)

Milliband probably supports Gordon Brown because he is now certain that Labour will loose the next election.

Being very young, the time Labour will have to spend in the opposition will give him enough time to groom himself and grow into the natural leader for the next time round in 10-year or so.

So by supporting Gordon Brown, he is avoiding un-necessary friction and making sure that he remain the darling of the party aparatchiks.

re: 48

Every last one of those weasels will go pop! (Just like a pigeon that has swallowed an alka-seltzer).

re: 53

From Macbeth act 1 sc. 7

I have bought
Golden opinions from all sorts of people.

53. T A Griffin (TAG)

Can we expect to see more quotes from Shakespeare

Before I saw your posting, I did quote from The Bard. He is great, something perfect to say for every occasion.

How about all of us in this forum (left, right and up the creek) combining to produce a modern-day comedy-tragedy using quotes from WS?
It would put a stop to the awful fighting of yesterday.
Cheers!

If we're going to quote Shakespeare, the three witches in Macbeth are the most apposite:

"How now, you secret, black, and midnight hags! What is't you do?"

or "double, double, toil and trouble"

still better "Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn The power of man, for none of woman born Shall harm Macbeth."

And how about the camping supplies shop in - I think - Stratford (the east London one) :

"Now is the winter of our discount tents"

Here's another politically-relevant Shakespeare quote, from Macbeth again (Act 3 sc. 4):

Stand not upon the order of your going,
But go at once.

Never forget that Nick Robinson was a tory party worker and cannot give an unbiased view.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Who in their right mind would want to lead the party to an almost certain electoral defeat?
The events that have scuppered GB have largely been out of his control but his reaction to these events has been nothing short of woeful.

Who will give the 'friends Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears, I come to bury Caesar not to praise him' speech when Gordon is eventually carried away into the wings.

Now we are hearing that Barry Gardener resigned and was not sacked, oh yes you were, oh no I wasn't, pure theatre, absolute pure theatre.

Is it a case of not seeing the woods for the trees.

Come on folks, wise up! We have here a potentially epoch changing crisis of western free market capitalism. We're seeing the death throes of the investment banking business model ... also the end of cheap (borrowed) money, cheap energy and the developing world's willingness to work like crazy for peanuts.

All combining to bring on an absolute Mother of a Slump. Not just us, the US, Japan, Europe as well. So don't let's have all this tosh about it being down to Brown. Of course it isn't. None of these other countries have Brown in charge, do they? It's dangerous to misdiagnose the cause because, if you do that, you'll prescribe the wrong medicine.

At this point in time, with everything that's happening, to get all worked up about, say, the level of UK government spending is like sitting on the Titanic (post crash) and complaining that there's no ice cubes for your gin and tonic.

Look, we can sort this out v quickly: has Gordon signed with a publisher yet for his Memoirs? (The Brown Months), and if so which London property is he keen on getting his hands on?

Check the small ads!

:)

#62

I think the movement has started, light the blue touch paper and retire.

# 56 (Willie)

Actually, as this banking nightmare carries on and gets worse, people might start to see the resulting slump as a clear case of free market capitalism gone wrong, rather than blaming the government. That could really hurt the Tories since they are the party most closely associated with that particular way of running things.

Two problems for Labour, though ...

- they've spent most of the last 15 years saying pretty much the same thing about how the market is best.

- in GB, they have a leader who is unelectable because he can't connect with the voters.

But what if they ditch Gordon for a leader who actually has some communication skills? And what if they also come up with a strongly interventionist programme to get things moving again? Strikes me it's not impossible that the next GE could then turn out to be very close.

Having said that, if I were advising Labour, I think I'd say don't bother, stick with Gordon, stick with doing not very much, because 2009 or 2010 is going to be a great election to lose.

What's the matter, you dissentious rogues,
That, rubbing the poor itch of your opinion,
Make yourselves scabs?

Coriolanus act 1 sc. 1

You know, the electorate could just about forgive Labour changing leaders mid-parliament. And the Tories couldn't shout too much because they had history too in that regard with Major.

But to do it twice would seem to most of us rather like the extraction of urine. Thew currently minuscule chances of Labour winning again would vanish utterly.

Unfortunately, many of the headless chickens flapping around the incestuous Westminster fever factory haven't really managed to grasp this most single, salient fact. So, while the entire western world teeters on the brink of financial meltdown (and that's not really an overstatement as I write), some Labour MP's have nothing better to do than run about pointing fingers and telling tales.

Would it be inopportune at this stage to humbly request that they GET A GRIP?
(see, even the faintest hint of a swearword - which wasn't actually there at all using the magic of ellipsis - is now expunged)

TAG, you mean that WS knew all about GB's latest Nu Lab re-launch?

"A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

hi Nick,

I hear that the editors on the Radio 4 news at one have even picked up on this quotes business 'He who wields the knife never wears the crown'.

Could I work and get paid by the BBC? To be joined by your other contributors of course. It would solve the unemployment problem.

#72

Marx was always right. Just as everybody stops being a Marxist then that is just when we need some really committed Marxists, capitalism is dead, it's been dead for years, only nobody read the last rites.

Either that or a nice dose of Proudhon anarchism.

#8 - T A Griffin (TAG)

Please not a Faustian tragedy.

Dr. Faust, you will recall, was redeemed by the love of a woman. If that means Harperson, give me damnation any day.

Julias Ceasar - Act V Scene III

Cassius (the one who killed Ceasar) shortly before he gets betrayed and stabbed by his servant :

"Come down, behold no more.
O, coward that I am, to live so long,
To see my best friend ta'en before my face!"

Shakespeare says Gordon will only go when Ed Balls is (politically) assassinated, stabbed by his servant.

(Gordon Brown's servant / PPS is Mr Ian Austin (Dudley North))

This works for me, carry on.

69 Sagamix

I agree that the global epic problems are more important than the detail concerning what ministers say or don't say concerning the imminent demise of Brown.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are very angry with Labour.

For years the media have given Labour a really soft ride - even when Brown ludicrously claimed to have ended boom and bust.

Labour have finally been outed for the incompetant charlatans they always were. There is far more than the economy that is broken in this country.

Even if we focus on the single issue of a busted economy Brown can't seem to string two credible words together which show HM Government is able to do anything to mitigate the pain of global chaos.

Confident leadership is the first thing the country needs in order to stabilise economic freefall. Brown can't even manage that. Even George W Bush seems more coherent.

It is the public's responsibility to hound this bunch from office any way we can ASAP.

Small word of warning to everyone who thinks Labour is doomed. Would you have given McCain a snowball's hope in hell 6 months ago?

Watch out for the 'lipstick' gags chaps!

I wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes that we are unaware of.

The one group we haven't heard much from is the Unions. What do they think?

They pretty much fund the New
Labour Party, their influence is not to be underestimated.

The Party Conference is just around the corner too, I wonder how many MPs will be invited to have a little chat with a Union Leader?

In a very round about way the Unions may have more to gain if the New Labour Party is voted out of power. I know it sounds odd but let me explain.

Currently the Unions have little influence (at least that we can see). There have been a few strikes but nothing has really stopped. Firemen and train/tube drivers/guards (have you noticed they most commonly strike when England play football ?), and by all account they didn't really cause too much disruption. Inconvenience - yes, disruption - no (that's the weathers job!).

With a Conservative government the Unions can unleash their heavy guns and blast away for all they are worth. It's rather difficult for some Unions to attack the New Labour Party as they are so entwined.

They have the added benefit that they will have MUCH more influence on the Labour Party (I think we can safely assume the New prefix will be consigned to the dustbin fairly soon), as they will be funding a much smaller party with huge debts. They will be able to dictate, rather than encourage policy direction.

So it doesn't really matter who is plotting at the moment. In time and with patience we will find out who the next leader will be - all of the candidates are right in front of us now.

re: 78

But in Marlowe's Dr Faustus, the eponymous character is torn apart by devils (ie. the panicking greedy piggies who know their time's up, ie. the cabinet).

Try this one:-

Get thee glass eyes,
And like a scurvy politician, seem
To see things thou dost not.

King Lear, Act IV, scene vi

For in the land of the blind is not the one eyed man king. Don't know that one but I've used it for years.

Slow day is it Nick?
Sadly one of the reasons that today's politicians of all parties sound like spin-fed robots is the journalistic obsession with nuances, inflections and omissions. They no longer have to concern themselves with convincing the electorate; only Paxman (and possibly Robinson). The media will then lead us in the right direction.
A non-statement here, a missed comma there may all make for an orgasmic headline in tomorrow's Daily Express but eventually
the PLP will sort themselves out for better or worse (probably the latter) and no-one else can do it for them.
Back in the real world, had you heard that Lehmann Bros had gone to the wall (one which surely cannot be blamed on socialist excess) and most City pharmacies are already sold out of Immodium Plus

Irreparable is the loss, and patience
Says it is past her cure.

The Tempest Act 5. sc. 1

King Henry:

Canst thou, O partial sleep, give thy repose
To the wet sea-boy in an hour so rude,
And in the calmest and most stillest night,
With all appliances and means to boot,
Deny it to a king? Then happy low, lie down!
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.

Henry The Fourth, Part 2 Act 3, scene 1, 26–31


"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown,"

He concludes, probably wishing that he hadn't seized the throne from the pathetic Richard II and then had him murdered.

"there is still plenty of work for we Kremlinologists to do".

Aargh. "For WE to do?"

No - "For US to do".

"As by the strength of their illusion,
Shall draw him on to his confusion"

Macbeth III:V:29

Brown becomes more like Macbeth as the days wear on. He plotted against Blair and got the top job; now his party is turning against him. Perhaps one word of caution to any potential challenger who does successfully depose Brown - the witches' prophecy at the end of Macbeth suggests that Macduff himself may not be secure either -

"Thou shalt get kings, though thou be none"

Macbeth I:III:70

Whatever happens, it seems as if the party is heading towards a civil war. The same happened to Major and now it is Brown's turn. Cries from the dying Tory Administration about the threat of a Labour Government were ignored in the 1990s and probably the same will occur now with similar calls from Labour about a future Conservative Government.

Blair was Labour's best asset and they forced him out of office. Blair was a winner, Brown is a loser.

I take it you have decided not to suggest we are now in a moment of calm for fear of further calls for GB to go.
Well done Nick - at least GB was able to clearly decide who was to blame for that debacle! Have you had your marching orders yet or do the political police just come and take you away?
All hail our beloved leader!

As has been said above, Labour know that if they ditch Brown the pressure for an election will be irresistible, it's also practically nailed on that Labour will be crushed by the Tories in England and Wales and by the SNP in Scotland. Many commentators have floated the idea that the Labour rebels want someone like Jack Straw to become leader for a "kamikaze" election so that Miliband won't be tarred with blame for an election that will make Michael Foot look like Clement Atlee and hope that the Tories will muck things up allowing Labour back in at the following GE. The flaw with this theory is that first term governments get the benefit of the doubt from the electorate, unless they make a pig's ear of it like Heath did. Voters will know that the economic problems won't be of the Tories' making and they will need time to sort it out. The other flaw is that if the polls are correct, most of Miliband's natural Blairite allies will have perished in the massacre and the parliamentary party will largely consist of MP's from Central Scotland, the Welsh Valleys, North East and Merseyside/Greater Manchester, few of whom were ever fervent supporters of New Labour and will want a return to Old Labour. Also bear in mind, that in opposition the PLP elects the shadow cabinet. In those circumstances I doubt Miliband would want the job.

I don't know anyone who thinks Labour will win the next election. The issue is, during the two years until they get kicked out we need someone who knows what he's doing leading the country through these difficult times.

The PM is turning into Robert Mugabe - all his actions are intended to save his own skin rather than fix all the financial problems (to a large extent of his own making).

Is one man's vanity worth all the economic damage that will be caused until 2010?

It's a pity Tony Blair didn't adopt Gordon Brown's policy of sacking everyone who shows disloyalty.

The "Scottish play" will be enough - Glenrothes.

TAG (#84)

re. country of the blind - a Roman gentlemen called Fullonius is believed to have said it first:

"Caecorum in patria luscus rex imperat omnis"

The trouble is that McCavity is in no sense a king.

And in the HG Wells story it isn't true as the blind refuse to believe that the sighted interloper can "see".

re: 94

Ooh I can't wait! We should be able to smell the roast pork as far south as Westminster!

All this speculation about Brown is sickening - just look around you, what is happening in the world? World financial system in deep crisis, climate change threatening the lives of millions, instability in many regions (middle east, Aghan/Pakistan border, Caucasus), major diseases (Aids, malaria). Gordon Brown really is a person capable of contributing to finding a solution to these problems, at the international and national level - look at his track record over the past decade. The media has so convinced the public that Gordon Brown is the problem, that is all people can think about.

And in any case, imagine if GB was to step down now, who would want to take his place? Given the mood of the public, it's quite likely that Labour will lose the next election, who ever is leader. There's a slim chance that if someone (maybe Milliband, Straw, or some other cabinet minister) took charge now, they could turn the situation round enough to scrape home at the next election in 2010. Depends very much on the fortunes of the Tory party and whether they come up with any credible policies.

#83 - power_to_the_ppl

Aye - I was referring to Goethe.

By the way, were the 'piggies' wearing lipstick?

Love the quotations from Marlowe and Shakespeare: bearing in mind the state of the Labour Government and its approach to policy-making and the dilemma in which they find themselves under the Shining One, I am put in mind of Luke's Gospel ch11 verse 39 "Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness."

#80 (Jonathan)

I'm sorry but I don't fully understand where you're coming from.

Yes, I accept that Brown's claiming of the credit for our "prosperity" was preposterous and so he deserves some stick now. Yes, I agree he doesn't have the aptitude to be PM and should go.

I'm sure the guy annoys you beyond measure (I'm not that keen either, to be honest) and so it's a great feeling to stick the boot in. That's fine, I can totally understand that, I felt the same visceral dislike for Thatcher. But it's surely dangerous to not recognise the truth. For example, I recognise that taming the unions, as Thatcher did, was important and necessary ... can you not give Brown a good pasting whilst also accepting the clear truth that the downturn has very little to do with him?

I mean, things are worse in the US and they haven't had anything like New Labour, have they? ... they've had 8 years of a right wing Republican administration.

Come on, seriously, think about it. If our problems are down to New Labour, how come all these other countries are going down in the same way? How come the ultra capitalist USA is in the worst shape of all?