What's said and what's not

It's difficult to take anything that any Labour MP says or doesn't say at face value.

I can't see the situation changing much at all. Gordon Brown will not give the position of PM whatever pressure is put on him, and I think he is spiteful enough to threaten to call a general election if Labour MPs do mount a revolt. That should be enough to dampen their enthusiasm.

So it looks like another 18 months of "just getting on with the job"......

The situation at present calls for the good old adage "Keep your eyes to the wall me darlings....." Like #1 U11714077, I cannot see GB surrendering power, and he would use the threat of calling an election to keep the hounds at bay. This crew of parasites would hardly relinquish all their perks in the name of democracy. Why should they want to lead a party that is more than floundering, indeed drowning, in a sea of inefficiency and if not gross corruption, absolute incapability. Who would want to be the captain of the Titanic?

Your reading of the situation is right as far as Straw is concerned. A safe pair of New Labour hands and a general election in the autumn?

But both Straw and Blunkett are part of what Alex Salmond calls "London Labour" and that would lead to a general election disaster for Labour.

There is another possibility turning into a probability - a letter of no confidence to the Cabinet signed by as many True Labour back bench MPs as can be mustered. It would only take one cabinet minister to break ranks and Brown is out.

That can't be Straw (too New Labour and too canny) but it could be a working class former trade union leader with his roots in the Labour Party.

Just imagine how a real Labour Party rid of the stigma of New Labour would fair against the SNP in Glasgow East?

All I can inagine is a famous Liverpool comedian saying 'calm down' 'calm down', only trouble is this is serious.

Please do not insult my intelligence by even hinting that Gordon Brown has a mandate. I did not vote for him, he was not leader of the labour party when the last general election was held with a Tony Blair who was 'going to serve a full term'.

Now I know Tony Blair served a full term as far as he was concerned insomuch that he has now resigned from Parliament, therefore did he always intend to leave after only a few months?

Gordon Brown is not the legitimate Prime Minister of this country, he knows it, I know it, and everybody else does as well. Anybody who thinks Gordon has any legitimacy is deluded and as so many labour MPs now come on to the media saying that Gordon is the legitimate PM is deluded.

They all deserve to lose their seats because the only way to rid ourselves of Brown is to vote all labour MPs out of office because I can't vote Gordon out. QED If I was a labour MP I would prepare to sign on at the dole office and I can't wait until the staff quiz you like they are going to quiz us. Mind you they will be able to plead delusional tendencies!

Brown under Blair was the master of the none rushed full-throated declaration of approval.

So he knows exactly what it means.

Glad Im not renting the holiday cottage next door, all that night pacing and nail gnawing.

After 11 years of constant lies and spin I now know that the opposite of everything Labour say is true. Here's just one of millions of examples:

'The majority of drivers will benefit' [from new road tax plans]. How many actually did? Oh yes, 3,944,700 out of 22 million, ie. 18 percent. How many are worse off? 9 million, ie. 43 percent.

This shambles of a party---if you can even call them a party, they're more like a gang---are hopelessly lacking in leadership because Brown has removed anyone of competence from the cabinet, they're hopelessly lacking in funds because they've wasted it all (3 billion on new nuclear warheads at a time like this?), and they're hopelessly lacking in ideology because they're careerists and will say and do anything to stay in power. We need to get rid of them and fast. They have two choices: keep Brown and lose the election, or oust Brown and face total wipeout. So it's not all bad ;)

Dear Nick

Small correction - there is a mechanism for Labour Party members to indicate approval or disapproval of the Leader/Deputy Leader set out in the Party's Rule Book. Party officials have chosen not to circulate the nomination papers to CLPs since 1996.

This has seriously weakened accountability of Labour in Government to its members - and the consequences in terms of declining membership, activism and loss of electoral support are all too apparant.

Peter Kenyon
Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party

re: 6

Correction, it should read: 'This shambles of a party---if you can even call them a party, they're more like a gang---are hopelessly lacking in leadership because Brown [is useless, has no ideas, authority or charisma and he] has removed anyone of competence from the cabinet'

re: 7

'Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party'

Lol. Not worth saving. Let the parasites destroy themselves and then start afresh when the corrupt majority have gone.

#4 T A Griffin (TAG)

At last, something we agree on!
According to my simplistic brain, it has always seemed that Brown seized power without an election oer any democratic procedure. Dictators sometimes receive their desserts here on earth, so as a man who claims to be G-d fearing, no wonder he nervously gnaws his fingernails.

5 Carrots

I laughed at your "no nookie till Christmas" comment.

Looks like Gordon Brown is the man to guide you through the difficult times ahead !

Mr Straw and Mr Blunkett will have to support Gordon Brown to the hilt. Labour is at its lowest point and will have to come out of this devastating election results with a well-thought out strategy. Voters will have to be convinced that Labour has pragmatic policies which could incorporate 'change' at all levels. Obama's meeting with Gordon would have given the Labour Party lots of food for thought! After all young British eligible voters will be exercising their right to vote in droves at the next elections. Labour has to appeal to these voters. Enlightenment and good common sense will see Labour regain the initiative.Conservatives will not be smiling for too long.

Looking through the present cabinet there is no replacement for Gordon, he wouldn't stand down anyway and will have to be dragged from the job.
With such a relatively short time until the next elections Euro ones/locals next year a new leader now would be in for a very short shift.

The bubble has burst....

A week in politics.......

re: 12

"Voters will have to be convinced that Labour has pragmatic policies which could incorporate 'change' at all levels."

Hmm, 'have to be convinced', a typical Nu Lie-bore attitude. After all its the voters that are wrong, right? No!

"Enlightenment and good common sense will see Labour regain the initiative."

I haven't seen any of this during the past 11 years. Argh, away with you, deluded Labourites!

The real problem for New Labour is that those that most want it's demise,and in particular the end of Brown,are traditional Labour supporters.As a former life-long Labour supporter,socialist and Union member I feel nothing but contempt and loathing for the greedy,arrogant,corrupt and generally clueless remnant of a once great party.I'm not alone in thinking the unthinkable and planning to vote Tory to oust my local Labour M.P. at the next General Election.

Change we can believe in.................

That's what the people of this country want............every electoral test of public opinion in the last few months is shouting this out loud and clear.......but to deaf ears!

The fact is that GB cannot deliver this change. I think Robert Mugabe got it right when he referred to GB as a "dot"! He lacks respect, authority and now trust. He lacks the "vision" to inspire the younger generation and his track record as Chancellor is now unravelling fast, as we all wake up to the fact that the 10 year NewLabour "party" was built on huge piles and piles of uncontrolled personal and Government debt, sky high taxation and wasteful spending.

It is time for a new direction, for us to start living within our means with smaller government on our backs. We need to initiate a war on our streets against the knife weilding criminals and we need to lift the war this Goverment has waged incessantly against the motorists of the UK. GB is instinctly against all of this.......as is the Labour Party. State control and state dependency is their creed! We need policies to help the "aspirational poor" achieve their dreams not load them with debt for the rest of their lives!

The fact is that New Labour is doomed at the next General Election. There is NOTHING they can do to avoid defeat. But it is not good for democracy for any party to gain a landslide victory so the Labour Party must change it's leader to try to claw itself back in the opinion polls, then call an election so that GB cannot hang on to the keys of No 10 for another 22 wretched and excruciating months!

As Norman Lamont once said.........he referred to his position as being in office but not in power..............and that paralysis has now gripped this Goverment from top to bottom. Nobody in the Labour party will run for leader and none of them want to face the verdict of the electorate. They are a bunch on bottlers holding on to the luxury trappings of office at the taxpayers expense!

It's time to end this tired looking Government.................and that is the message that every election in this country is sending to the man without an mandate.....GB!

I suspect Straw's hand will be forced sometime in the autumn, a number of Labour MPs will be stewing over their futures during the summer recess - the Scottish ones and those without overwhelming majorities most certainly.

What will be interesting is to see who does a disappearing act during the next crisis (with Brown in charge that's a 'when' not an 'if') as that'll identify just who the stalking horses are.

Brown, and Labour, are dead men walking - it's just enormously disappointing the replacement will be Cameron, another disciple media-driven dross.

After 11 years of spin and minimal returns on the public expenditure investment we need a statesmen, not another gurning popinjay selling snake oil.

I have been doing a bit of Googling and found this. It was from 2004 when certain people were attempting to put the scars on Tony Blair's back: Full circle so as to speak.


https://www.workersliberty.org/node/3008

The Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) have scoured the Labour Party rule book and found a way to force a leadership contest in the Labour Party. A way, that is, potentially, to get rid of Tony Blair as leader of the Labour Party!

In CLPD’s bulletin No.67, July 2004, they set out the rules to use.

In summary:
“Conference has the power to initiate a leadership election by invoking Section 4B.2d (ii) of the National Rules of the Labour Party…
“A CLP or an affiliated organisation can use a contemporary or an emergency motion to ask Conference to activate the above provision. …[relevant rule:] Section A, Conference rule 2, 3C2.3…
“For a subject to meet the conditions specified… CLPs and affiliated organisations must ensure that their contemporary motion… must refer to an event relevant to the motion’s demand. In addition, the event must have occurred after the last NPF meeting (ie after 25 July) and before the closing date for contemporary motions.” Nothing worth having was ever come by easily!

Post #16 - yes, but unfortunately you won't get it from Comedy Dave and Boy George either. It will be business as usual, tax cuts for the rich and a Lasiz Faire attitude to the bank's (which has been Brown's downfall) and how they conduct their business.

If Brown and co have failed with tory policies, what makes people think that Cameron will be this startling success story.?

@12, Pancha_Chandra

The tales of the Tories demise from Labourites are getting a little long in the tooth.

We've been hearing this "the Tories won't be laughing for long!" for, well, a long time now.

And really, given it was an SNP that gave Brown his most recent trouble, it seems almost pathological about how the kneejerk response is to belittle the Tories.

It isn't just the Tories you need to be scared of - it's the SNP who'll cause the most damage by potentially slaughtering Labour in Scotland. Lose Scotland, lose Westminster.

And of they do gain independence we'll not be seeing a Labour government in England for a very long time.

Brown is now perceived, and with good reason, as being a Dick Dastardly type figure with a cape and twirly moustache who has tied a helpless Britannia to the railway tracks. (His pet Chancellor Darling is Muttley lol).

#7 PGKenyon and others

At last some point of interest!

But surely the Labour leadership question both north and south of the border lie with finding candidates who want the job.

Professional politicians will remember Hague's bad decision to stand for the Tory leadership at just the wrong point in the electoral cycle. If he had waited, then he would be Tory leader - not Cameron.

What elements in the Labour leadership will probably try to determine is:

Will Labour be more damaged by trying "to brass it out" until the next election under a constant hammering, or would changing leader and losing a general election actually leave them better off in 24 months?

But when will they taste power again? If the UK breaks up starting with the Scottish 2010 referendum and the public don't like it who will they blame?

Don't change the leader... yet.

Change the damn policies and don't keep coming on TV telling us what our concerns are.

We know what they are and there is a long list, in addition to those the government can do very little about.

They mostly revolve around our government selling out our privacy, freedoms and services to business and foreign interests and then condescendingly simpering when we have the temerity to complain.

Develop a political philosophy that doesn't revolve around giving multinational companies large wedges of our cash in return for poor services. Put the protection of our rights and interests at the focus and have the intellectual strength to admit to being wrong on occasion.

megapoliticajunkie's #88 on the 'Sore political heads' impishly asks:
"Have the BBC got enough cameras for all the Ministers who are going to have their own "Portillo moment" at the next General Election."

This prompts me to wonder whether Captain Scott (acknowledgement to CarrotsneedaQUANGO2's 248 on the "Oops" thread) could be shoved aside by one of those staring at their own Portillo moment. What we need is a database of the NuLabour Politburo so that they can be ranked in order of likelihood of sharing Michael P's unenviable fate. These, surely, are the ones most likely to take the Brutus role in the impending tragicomdey.

It also poses the question whether any are bright enough to realise the position they's in or are they all just rabbits caught in the headlights?

I have hunted a bit, but perhaps in the wrong places. It would be easy to build from the details on the BBC Election 2005 website, but if anyone knows of a suitable starting point I would be very interested to know before having a go myself.

There was a PM called Brown
Whose world was turned upside down
I blame Blair
Who crept from the lair
Leaving Brown in his funeral gown

Re #15 Devonportdave

Good for you.

Sad for your party that you didn't read the runes when traitor Hain left the Liberals to be a grain of sand in what became the NuLabour "pearl".

Post #19.

Cameron has been talking the correct language on Government spending since the moment he was elected...i.e. SHARE the proceeds of growth between individual taxpayers and the Government/Public Services. Labour's attitude is to tax everyone and everything at the highest and stealthiest levels then spend spend spend without seeking value for money and thus leaving nothing in the kitty for the bad times!

Cameron might not be a "startling success" but a Thatcher style revolution towards public spending and taxation with controlled borrowing by the Govt and individuals is the only way forward for the next economic cycle.

GB as we have seen is for prolifrigation, DC for thrift. And thrift will become a more dominant political issue as the economic noose tightens around all our necks!

#16 - NorthernThatcherite

"As Norman Lamont once said.........he referred to his position as being in office but not in power....."

It was Geoffrey Howe.

There once was a PM called Brown
Who wore the Nu-Labour crown
It slipped off his head
And he fell over dead
That arrogant PM called Brown

There once was a PM called Blair
Who made his constituents swear
We don't want a war
You silly old bore
No wonder we're losing our hair

The real problem here is that Labour need a leader. GB is a good politician, many on here would say he is competent, professional etc. However, leadership requires something else, it cannot be easily defined but it is what happens when people WANT to follow you, even if they may disagree with some of your views and / or plans.

Thatcher had it, Blair had it, Major didn’t but wasn’t as bad as Kinnock so survived. GB probably couldn’t get a Lemming to follow him off a cliff at the moment. His chances therefore of getting the country (or even his own MP’s) to follow him in the current circumstances are virtually non-existent.

The Country will suffer because of this. Personally I think the Tories will win by default and therefore not benefit from a well thought out manifesto that we can hold them to. Whilst many would applaud this situation the Tories are lead by the wrong man, William Hague got the leadership too early and David Davis is banished from influence unfortunately this country will not get the strong leader that we need.

The other point people keep going back to is does he have a mandate? Sorry guys but unfortunately we do not vote for the PM directly. Until we do the governing party choose the PM he has therefore the only mandate he needs to keep going until Labour do something about it.

re: 30

Hmm, 'Who wore the Nu-Labour crown' would probably be better as 'Who seized the Nu-Labour crown'

For a much more insightful view of what's happening within Labour see Paul Mason's (Newsnight Economics Editor) blog

Its not just a case of who the leader is but the policies and the Cabinet. Iraq, the Olympics, the next generation of nuclear weapons, failing to tax those who can afford it and taxing petrol instead, the market in public services and threatening the unemployed and the sick are all policies the Conservative Party would be happy to give us and are on record as such.

So what is the point of getting rid of this government and getting Cameron instead?

The trouble is that Brown et al are making sure that there own futures are ensured. Radical change is needed NOW otherwise we will all continue suffer and suffer even more under the Tories.

Don't be taken in by Cameron. Their agenda is for the few not the many.

Post 29. When did GH say that? And what was he/who referring to?

Here is an extract from Wikipedia in relation to Norman Lamont...........

"After the government's massive loss in the by-election Lamont left office (declining a demotion to become Secretary of State for the Environment), throwing (by his own account) Major's letter of regret at his departure unopened into the wastepaper basket, and giving a resignation speech in the House of Commons that made clear his feeling that he had been unfairly treated, saying that the government 'gives the impression of being in office but not in power';"

I rest my case!

Re 7.

Peter Kenyon
Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party


Why would I want to elect a chair?
On second thoughts though it wouldn't be any worse than the other bits of furniture presently inhabiting the corrdors of power

Please can someone write a shopping list of complaints against Gordon Brown? I don't blame him at all for Britain's problems (and I am not at all a Labour supporter).

There's a danger in putting too much faith in politicians to improve our lives. If you are relying on them then you might have other things you could consider to change things.

PS

I think David Milliband would make a great PM.

re: 37

Good point. And a chair wouldn't have to claim anything on expenses except maybe a bit of varnish now and again. And it certainly wouldn't eat everything on the menu at Mr. Chu's like John Prescott did.

Two problems for Labour. First there is the Government level problem - irrespective of the leader. Second second there is the problem of the leader per se.

The first is the age old problem of a Party whose whose time the electorate has decided is up and who will vote against them, rather than for the other lot. This is based on a mixture of past failings coming home to roost, despite areas of success, and the hubris which seems to grip all parties after a prolonged period in office.

This is nearly always fatal, though there have been ecxeptions eg this certainly was the state of the Tories in 1992 but Labour and Neil Kinnock improbably managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

If Cameron and the Tories avoid scandal, keep things at a high level and sit back and allow Labour to keep digging in it's deep hole then, absent any exceptional event, ditching Brown probably makes no difference.

As for the leader problem, I don't think it is just a presentational or charisma issue, though certainly that is a factor. For me, Brown looks like a politician whose strengths play best in the back room or in opposition. On the latter point, he was very effective in opposition to the Tories pre-1997 - and, indeed, to Blair post-1997.

On the other issue, it has been said that intelligence brings quickness of apprehension as distinct from abiltity, which is the capacity to act wisely on the thing apprehended. I fear Gordon's real problem is that he is intelligent but lacks ability. Thus, he is very good at identifying the right issues but flounders and dithers hopelessly when trying to identify, communicate and deliver the right solutions. When he does come up with solutions, they tend to be 'clever' but much more effective in theory than in parctice.

Frankly, I've no idea what Labour should do now vis a vis Brown - a classic 'I wouldn't start from here if I was you' situation. But, apart from a contingency plant to cater for the intervention of a big event or Tories hitting the self-destruct buttony -perhaps the reality is that, with apologies to David Steel, they need to "Go back and prepare for opposition."

Are we not like a group of angels trying to dance on the head of a pin.

Trying to analyse the ifs, buts, maybe's, why's and wherefore's are nothing more than a distraction.The simple fact is that there is now a fundamental disconnect between the general population and all of the political class, especially the incumbent government.

The Lisbon treaty referendum, sleaze and corruption throughout Westminster, the West Lothian question and the Barnett formula, are symptomatic of a bankrupt political system that has systematically abandoned democracy and ignoring promises they made, for their own personal or political gain.

Each of the recent misfortunes that have landed on GB's head since he bottled his election call, is now simply another rock being placed on the grave of somebody who is already buried 6ft under. No amount of scratching on the coffin lid with his fingernails is going to bring anybody running to save him.

#36 - NorthernThatcherite

I am suitably penitent - (especially as I have been moved to post elsewhere a comment regarding people getting their facts right).

I think I had in mind the cricket analogy in GH's resignation statement - 'It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find, the moment the first balls are bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain.'

But you are absolutely correct and I apologise unreservedly.

Comment No 1 is probably right - another 18 months of "getting on with the job", which means fiddling (usually the figures) while Rome burns.
Apart from anything else, Labour doesn't have any credible alternative. How can anyone with a semblence of sense propose Jack Straw, Ed [no] Balls or Harriet [my husband is the stupidest man alive] Harman as prime minister?

Post 32.

"Thatcher had it. Blair had it"........

What was "it"?..........

Thatcher had CONVICTION and CHARISMA. Blair had only CHARISMA.

the best leaders have conviction, charisma...............and LUCK!

Brown nor any of the likely contenders for his job..........Straw, Milliband or Johnson have both conviction or charisma............and until the economy improves they will have no luck either

Bring back Thatcher!!!!!!

At least when things got bad you knew what she said carried conviction and some of her one-off lines were classics!!!!

Post 43.

Thanks.

27 browndov, why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor Winston Churchill and Vince Cable.

#9 power_to_the_people, by the corrupt majority, I'm assuming you're meaning within the parliamentary Labour Party. However, do you really think getting unceremoniously dumped in any form of election is going to get rid of them?

They'll simply continue with the 'Blair won us three terms so surely he got it right' mantle and continue.

The very rich are always going to be around and they'll always vote for the party with the most extreme neo-liberal policies.

I don't think we can ever expect to see a Labour party again (one that reflects the interests of the working public).

As a bitter and twisted Labour supporter, I am saddened by the way the Party is starting to self-distruct. Just what the Tories did under Major.

We get rid of Blair because MPs think he will lose us the next election. What a good idea that was! Brown comes in and though he has done little wrong, he cannot beat up Cameron and is being walked over from anyone and everyone.

Cameron admitted that Blair was too hot to handle. Brown is an easy touch. Politics is about spin and more spin. Cameron is just using the Blair template and winning.

I admit there is policy behind the spin, however the people see the governing of the country on a few issues that effect them only.

Labour MPs were elected to do what they promised. They should have thought about this situation when they were sticking a knife into Blair.

Brown, Im afraid is doomed. Unless he can start doing the things he cares about, instead of treating the people like a bad rash.

Please explain to me, why is Gordon Brown been made 'the scapegoat' of labour party that is everyone is ever so willing to slaughter?!We tend to be fickle minded; he was not handed over the reins of the party at the wave crest. Why are we ignoring the terrible spiral of mess Tony Blair left the Labour party in? I can understand the frustration of the consumers/voters in the current worldwide economic gloom venting out their steam at the party and the leader in particular but I personally feel Britain has done extremely well to weather the batterings of the economic slowdown compared to other nations.We ought to open our eyes to the global phenomenon, and appreciate its not because of one man!
Yes, I totally agree labour has been in power for too long, the electorate has decided for a change; no leadership at this stage could save the downslide started by Tony Blair. All I don't undertand is the vilification of Gordon Brown.

re: 47

Lol come on grandantidote! Because he defected to the most corrupt party the UK has ever seen!

nick do you think that someone could get that clown Power to the ppl a reality check he's becoming more manic by the day it would be nice to have some semblance of sanity with reference to the blog

#45 NorthernThatcherite, whilst I have to reluctantly agree with you that Thatcher possessed the attributes you refer to. I cannot see how Blair was CHARISMATIC.... when has Blair ever been charismatic?

Please remember the people who refer to Blair as charismatic probably think President Bling Bruni is too. Oh, they probably refer to Jordan or whatever her name is as a celebrity.

I shall stop here, if I continue this post will be censored.

re: 48

Yep you assume correctly and you sum up pretty much what I meant. Labour will undoubtedly split into factions and make themselves unelectable (well, they've already done that) and won't taste power again for a very long time. But this is best in the long run because they've gone rotten. They can't spin themselves out of this one---going into opposition is the only way to prevent the power-hungry careerists from taking over the party again. In an ideal world, the genuine conviction politicians (like Mo Mowlam) will start to come back to the party once they've imploded and rebuild it into a party rather than the gang it is.

re: 52

grandy Nick and the moderators love me because I tell it like it is ;)

Good, non-partisan (which means most of you won't look near it) article by Joyce McMillan in the Scotsman -

https://news.scotsman.com/politics/Social-justice-could-be-real.4327660.jp

Re #47 grandantidote
"why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor Winston Churchill and Vince Cable."

Because he ratted on his beliefs when he left the Liberals. His whole political ethos was summed up by his "What's Left" campaign against Wilson's Labour Party and it was his ratting on that which prompts me to brand him as a traitor. At least it seems to have ended in ignominy, which is some consolation.

Churchill was undoubtedly an opportunist before hils wilderness years and after '45, but he was also the right man in the right place between '40 and '45. I'm not sure he had many beliefs apart from freedom. Cable simply saw fairly early where NuLabour was headed and sensibly jumped a ship that was leaving his centre-left position for a journey to the far right.

Neither are my heroes but merely on my shortlist.

#54 power_to_the_people, one can but only hope.

The down-trend in the economy is an opportunity for old Labour to make a comeback.

51 power to the people I would like to respond to you but in view of your uncontrolable rantings after the SNP not the Tories won the Glasgow east by electiont, [God help your friends if the Tories win the general election].I am unable too.
I am, until you come back to your senses compelled to say something about organ grinders and monkeys and to whom the post was addressed.

If Gordon Brown was starring in a Western movie, this is the moment when he squints up at the ridge and sees a solitary Apache warrior. However a few seconds later when he looks up again and there's a hundred of them. Time to circle the wagons Gord!

clearzipzap. I agree to the point that why is Brown being treated like this. However, Brown and Blair worked as a team (Even though Nick and his fellow media friends wouldnt agree!) to breath life into the party. Get it to where it is and win three terms!

Labour MPs are bricking it. Instead of standing up and doing the job they were elected to do. They start protecting the seat and being devisive.

Brown has not got the power to control this.
Blair was taken down to be replaced by his No.2. But isnt Brown no differant than McClaren taking over from Eriksson?

re: 58

Well you all know how I feel about Labour remaining in power but it's necessary for them to be a united party to provide an effective opposition. In the short term it's good that Labour are crumbling so that the Tories can get in and undo all the damage Labour have done in the first place, but if Labour stay divided into factions then what's to stop the Tories going power-mad and heading down the same route? (Although that's unlikely, I don't believe the Tories will take the same path as last time). It's clear centralised state-control and enforced state-dependence doesn't work at all so why not try something new?

re: 59

Come on grandy be reasonable, Labour deserved to lose and it's good that they did. Nothing wrong with being exuberant when talking politics!

re: 60

Lol good analogy. Though I think he's more likely to be found in the saloon, searching for policies at the bottom of a glass!

The government is says it is committed to helping 'hard pressed working families' and taking steps to minimise the effects of a global downturn.

How does renaming a benefit and printing new forms do that? How does sending the unemployed out to clean up litter improve employment prospects? How does employing people to monitor emails and tap phones help? How does banging up people for 42 days without trial make for a better economy?

The problem with the government is that it is fundamentally dishonest. It says one thing and it does something else. The measures which mitigate against the freedoms of the citizen are particularly sinister because they are not only a waste of public money but they indicate a paranoid tendency in the governing classes which is pushing them towards control freakery. An honest government would have nothing to fear from its own electorate.

When you have sunk to a level where local authorities are paying people to wander round snapping pictures of working guys having a crafty fag during their lunch break, I am afraid the whole thing is beyond redemption. This is totally irrational behavior and the tragedy is that at a time of financial stringency they are using your money to pay for it.

I am surprised that Pancha_Chandra can be so positive about Brown meeting Obama!

I am guessing that he has no idea that Obama central focus is "Change" - not really the message that Brown wants to get across! Young people will see a principled and dynamic politician speaking to Brown - who lets be fair to him frankly isn't.

I think that the only thing that will wipe the smile from the Conservatives faces is when they see exactly how much of a mess Labour have made of everything!

62. We all know what your about! All parties are devided. Its about spin machines and lots of glue holding it all together!

Cameron has got a lot of glue! However as the past has told us those old buggers sitting in the wings are ready to pounce and undo the glue.

Dont get to carried away, as the next election looms and the policies are explained, Cameron will I am sure start to twitch and his tefal image begin to crack.

Those chickens arnt for counting. Not quite yet!

"Bring back Thatcher!!!!!!

At least when things got bad you knew what she said carried conviction and some of her one-off lines were classics!!!!"

Yup. Thatcher, even in her dotage, from a hospital bed, would be preferable to the shower we have in power at the moment. She still has more power and leadership charisma than Blair and Brown put together....

"why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor, Winston Churchill..."

Grandantidote, Winston Churchill cared for his country. If his party could not do the best for his country, he would leave it. I assume you would have your country sink into the mire before you relinquished hold on your petty, indoctrinated set of opinions which are ruining our once-great country as we speak?

If I were Brown I'd be glad that Straw hadn't rushed forward with a full-throated declaration of approval. If he had it would be a sure sign of plotting. Cautious backing indicates he still actually backs him. Extravagant backing indicates he doesn't.

The one thing I am sure of who ever take the mantle of the Labour party will only have 12 months to serve.So why should anyone want to be a losing PM.Far better to wait till after the election and be the new Labour party leader and have a fighting chance at the next election.

Northern Thatcherite - "Bring Back Thatcher"

Er... no thanks. Then you ensure the break up of the UK. The last thing we need is a "Thatcher style revolution in public spending and taxation" -especially as it destroyed the ability of our public services to do their job properly.

No what is needed is a tax system where those with low wages don't pay as much tax as the fat cats and high earners, this is something which both New Labour and the Conservitives are too scared of Middle England to do, in fact it is the indirect taxes which people refer to rather than the bogey man of income tax when they mean that taxes are too high.

Oh, and where is this money that Gordon has apparently spent, because i, my partner, and one guesses the good people of Glasgow East haven't seen any of it.

Re #56 oldnat

And you accuse me of having a wicked streak!

The Scotsman's "Social justice could be real victim of Labour's by-election defeat" is indeed admirably non-partisan and shows exactly the way the LibDems would have been going had not Clegg been emulating Cameron a bit too much of late.

If "NuLabour 3, Flight of the Phoenix" emerges from the ashes after the general election that's what they'll be saying they'll do, while they continue their right wing agenda.

Most posters here would probably rant at it for one particular they don't like, but that seems pretty close to the balance of opinion in Scotland.

The only one I would vote for out of the whole cabinet is Alan Johnson. A working guy with true Labour roots. Brown has sadly blown it imo

re: 64

Yes, and this is exactly why we shouldn't vote for them, lest Britain should become (more of) an Orwellian nightmare.

re: 66

I'm keeping my eyes open, I know they're far from perfect. But better than this lot? Arguably so, more than likely yes. Less paranoid? Undoubtedly (see threnodio's 64).

64. Quick get indoors, you may be under threat from the paper boy! (undercover agent for the local parish council)

What a load of rubbish!

What has 42 days got to do with the economy?

Dont forget to pay your membership for Liberty. The voice of the p@*$ takers!!

re: 68

Oh they're plotting alright, regardless of what they tell us plebs.

Oh and post#25

If i remember correctly, the Portilo moment was great because one of the most arrogant minnisters was ousted. Having said that, he had the grace and dignity to thank the victor and the electorate, both of which were things he hadn't shown at that point when in Government, but has shown lots of times since then.

No a better example would be the graceless way which David Mellor lost, there was more satisfaction at that defeat. I suspect that at the next election, there will be more "Mellor" moments than "Portillo" ones...

Limerick to an honourable trade- aka The Heseltinies revisited

There once was a woman called Harriet,
Whose name rhymes with Judas Iscariot
She went all over town
Saying ‘Be loyal to Brown’
Whist oiling the wheels of her chariot

Watching her was Straw Jack
A wily political hack
Said he Said ‘Brown’s the man.
‘Stick with him ‘s my plan’
Concealing his knife at his back

And then there was Miliband Dave
Who said ‘Gordon’s job I don’t crave
‘If I did I’d have stood’
‘Back then when I could’
‘Oh God I wish I’d been brave’

And what about poor ED Balls
Whose whole situation just galls
Hitched to the Brown wagon
His fortunes are flaggin’
In fact, he’s left climbing the walls

For Gordon is all hard to bear
‘How can they be so unfair ?’
‘My reputation they soil’
‘They’re completely disloyal’
‘Did I ever do that to Blair ?’

re: 74

It's not rubbish, my local council (Labour) paint speed cameras green and hide them in trees. I'm sure this is illegal, but Nu Lie-bore are above the law.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#78

Have you tried asking the police if hidden speed cameras are contrary to the Road Traffic Act - or are they part of the conspiracy too?

38. london888

You asked:
Please can someone write a shopping list of complaints against Brown.

You must be new here so Ill be gentle.

Taxed me to the hilt for a decade
Increased debt to record levels
Hasn’t saved so much as a bean for a rainy day
Squandered a over a trillion quid
Sold my gold for a song
Raided my pension funds
Kept public sector gold plated final salary schemes
Adjusted his golden rule so often it’s now a joke
He gave away our EU rebate while allowing France to keep all their CAP subsidies
Promised a bonfire of Quangos but then increased their number 10 fold
Failed to grasp the implications of abolishing the 10p tax rate until it was too late.
Didn’t give me a say on the Lisbon treaty.
Lied about why he didn’t call an election
Didn’t move to sort out MPs expenses. didn’t even bother to turn up and vote.
Got the budget for the Olympics way wrong and even then forgot to add VAT.
He sabotaged Blair’s public sector reforms that were well over due.
He does not understand the armed forces and has broken the military covenant.
Continues to erode my civil liberties. 42 days, ID cards etc.

There has been some debate about whether he was elected by the people or not, and technically of course here in the UK we do not vote for the PM, just our local rep. However, The Tories had a slogan at the last election. It was vote Blair get Brown. Labour went a long way to deny this and Blair promised us faithfully that he would serve a full third term.

The reality is that most people do not actually know the name of their MP, but they do know that they tend to play follow the leader. So the look at the leaders and vote along those lines.

Finally: Hes a control freak, bites his nail and picks his nose in parliament and is generally an all round unappealing kinda leader of the country.

Oh yes and hes a socialist.

Im sure there more but Im loosing the will to live now.

Brown keeps telling us, over and over again, that he understands what the publics concerns are and will address them.

Frankly this is risable, he can do nothing about most of them, job security, food costs, and most fuel costs.

What he can do something about he actually makes worse, eg 10p tax rate and the despicable attempt to hike Vechle Excise Duty retrospectively.

If he want any chance of staying on he should address VED now and make some tax cuts - paid for by public spending reductions if required.

There was an MP called Geoff Hoon
Who's a typical Labour buffoon
He's hatching a plot
To oust the dour Scot
(Who we can't get rid of too soon)

To Northern Thatcherite and Extreme Sense..

You missed my point a bit about leadership. It doesn’t matter what you personally think of either Blair or Thatcher. Both were followed, and both were followed loyally by people who thought they were wrong at many points during their premierships. Brown doesn’t have that ability, or either of their charismatic personalities.

Both enthused those who would normally be naturally opposed to them and both gained three good election victories when less “natural” leaders would have failed at the third time of asking. Both also won a first victory due to the incumbents’ total failure. You could argue that either or indeed both conned those who would naturally be opposed to them but it doesn’t change the facts that they both succeeded.

Only a real leader could avoid a total Labour meltdown next election. Only a near miracle could make it a victory.

Perhaps Gordon Brown should just accept he isn't going to win at the next election and do some bold and brave things, leave the next term to Dave C and hope Labour can recover for next time.

For example:

- voting reform for the House of Commons. If we moved to a D'Hont system, even if he lost under it he could blame his brave changes.

- media ownership. Put a rule saying no-one could own any UK media asset unless they were a European citizen, at least until the US reverses their ruling. Rupert Murdoch has betrayed Gordon, now it is time to return the favour.

- privacy law. Put a "public interest" test on the media and security firms.

- extend the BBC License fee for another decade. Then he can be sure of a job after being PM.

#74

You just don't get it, do you?

They don't have self-help prison cells, you know. Surveillance cameras don't come free with every packet of Frosties. And G-d alone knows how many people are being paid to monitor rubbish bin use, dog pooh bandits and all the other serious crims who are undermining the fabric of society.

Your money is going up in smoke pursuing these initiatives. The civil liberties arguement can wait. To borrow Bill Clinton's election call 'It's the economy, stupid'.

They won't get rid of him; they know they'll lose the next election no matter what happens, so they'll just keep him in the job and humour him as he digs himself (and the country) into ever deeper trouble.

Then, after the 2010 election they'll all point at him and say "your fault".

Then for the next 20 years they'll try to fight their way out of the political wilderness by trying to distance themselves from everything that Brown ever did by saying "I was only following orders".

I hope they're all thoroughly ashamed of themselves for crowning him when they all knew full well that he was an incompetent idiot.

#80 - oldnat

Speed cameras were supposed to be a deterrent. How are they going to deter anyone if you don't know about them. If, on the other hand, they are cash cows . . .

Re #76 GRhino

I agree that Portillo has proved himself to be a "mensch" subequently - perhaps thanks to that humiliation, he took a longer view.

My point, however, was to try to identify who in the NuLab front bench might be beginning to see that moment coming and so a little braver in coming forward as a candidate.

re: 88

Labour sees all of us as cash cows, with big swollen udders, ripe for milking.

Miliband: Give it up Gordon, it's hopeless.
Brown: NO! Never!
Harman: I want to be PM! Let me have a go!
Miliband: WHAT? I want to be PM! No one'll vote for you!
Harman: Yes they will! What do you know about government you lanky streak of---
Brown: SHUT UP! I AM THE PM!
Darling: Not for much longer---
Brown: MUTINY!
Miliband: You lost Glasgow East with a 22.5 percent swing and---
Brown: TRAITORS!
Harman: Shut up Gordon and listen!
Brown: I am listening! The public want me to do my job!
Darling: AAAARGH no they don't they want you out!
Brown: But I am the PM!
Miliband: Where's the whisky?
Harman: I want some whisky!
Brown: It's mine, give it to me!
Harman (grabs whisky): MINE!
Brown: RRGH (they scuffle)
Miliband: MINE!
Harman: I thought you wanted to be PM! You can't have both!
Miliband: Can!
Harman: Can't!
Brown: I'M STILL THE PM
Miliband: No, my turn!
Harman: No, mine!
Brown: I am the man to steer us through this difficult time!
Harman: ME!
Miliband: NO, ME!

etc etc etc

Re #85 Briantist

I think it's simply too late for Brown now, but those are exactly the kind of things a new PM could do to minimise the disaster or perhaps go into a coalition next time.

He or she would also have to complete devolution, I think and make the HoC the English Parliament while replacing the HoL with a supreme court and a union senate.

Most readers here probably don't know that it's the D'Hondt method used to elect the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly. It should certainly bring the LibDems onside, perhaps for a one-election pact.

#85 Briantist and #92 Brownedov

It would really be statesman like behaviour to say -

"Sorry, we got some things wrong" and reverse the non social democratic policies, while sacking the worst of the modernisers in the Cabinet (thus blaming them).

Make a deal with the Lib-Dems for PR, push it through Parliament, then call an election.

All based, of course, on the premise that Middle England is irretrievably lost, and the objective is to reduce the period of inevitable barbarism, which otherwise would last 30,000 years ...

Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm rewriting Asimov's Foundation trilogy.

Hi Nick

In my opinion Gordon Brown should go now, at least that would give the labour party time to find a new leader to try and turn things around with the remaining 2yrs or whatever it is until a general election is called.

I can see though that because he waited over 10yrs for the top job he's not going to step aside without a fight, But by putting his self or political career first ahead of the party he will really finish labour off! A long spell in opposition beckons.

It's a bit like the captain of a ship refusing to go down with it, when the boiler room is filling with water but the captain carries on regardless!

In my view David Milliband would be a good new leader, someone who could restore the labour party in time to give them a fighting chance at the next general election, otherwise the longer Brown stays the harder it will be for the labour party to regain any credibility with the electorate.

Either way - "Me thinks the lady protests too much"

So if senior Nu Labour ministers are telling Labour Back Benchers to 'Shut up" or "Calm Down" then as eggs is eggs there is a plot afoot to get rid of the disaster know as Gordy Broon.

In sport - when the results you need don't happen you sack the Manager

In business - when the results you need don't happen you sack the CEO

In politics - when the voters don't like you or your policies - they vote you out - even if it takes a year or two

But if you are Gordon Brown or Robert Mugabe or Adolf Hilter or any other 'dictator' you bury your head in the sand, get rid of anyone who disagrees with you and declare that you are the only one who can save the nation. Then you bolt the doors, take the phone off the hook, huncker in the bunker and await the inevitable.

And believe me the inevitable WILL HAPPEN - it's only a matter of time. Gordy Broon will either get voted out, kicked out or resign under pressure. The incompetent rascal cannot survive for ever - history shows us that.

In the mean time I for one will be saving my pennies under the mattress, cutting back on any unnecessary expenditure and hoping that I won't be well and truly broke by the time he is gone!!!

After 4 defeats in Crewe, London, Henley and now Glasgow, the desire for change is gathering pace here in the UK, much in line with the trend in Europe where people have woken up to the fact that Centre-Left governments are useless and are voting them out.
Labour really are between a rock and a hard place, they know that if Brown is still in charge at the next Election, they'll lose.
Equally they can't risk the internecine divisions that a leadership election will inevitably cause.
As Nick Robinson rightly points out, the Public will not be impressed with a Labour Party that's looking inward. A further erosion of support for Labour would be the likely result, so whichever way you look at it I think personally that Labour are (thankfully)doomed at the next Election.

Perhaps some senior Labour figures are looking at getting some non-Scots into the PMs chair or at least remove some of the cabinet. (I am Scottish by the way).

The media like playing up the "Scottish Mafia", but to be honest it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if they were from Mars.

Labour needs to realise that the great master plan has backfired. Devolution was there for one reason and one reason only - votes. No one expected Alex Salmond to unite the previously disintegrating SNP and then gain power.

I do not think Jack Straw will make a move, as he will realise that Labour are effectively finished. The Lib Dems are losing votes as people understand that voting for them now simply increases the chances of Labour remaining in power.

Labour cannot win, and they are making all the wrong noises.

EDF is massively increasing bills for gas and electricity. But it's ok for taxpayers money to go to Palestine. Why?

There is no point in wittering on about how the Conservatives sold off the energy companies in the first place. Labour have been in power 11 years and more and more people are struggling to earn enough money to live. Add all the other problems and Labour have no answer. Perhaps no other party can do much, but it is Labour who are the Government. It is their responsibility to ensure that the population of the UK can live.

Politicians seem to be scared of making decisions for political reasons.

Perhaps some previously unknown Labour MP will stand against Brown as a gesture, but I doubt it. The real power will lie with the Unions. And if I was Gordon Brown, I would pay special attention to Alan Johnson. He is the most likely candidate to replace him.

Are people actually surprised that Labour would actually enter into a full-scale civil war after the departure of Blair? Blair brought together (albeit building on previous work by Kinnock and Smith) the various elements of the Labour Party - both 'progressive' and traditional, to create New Labour. Whatever the outcome, it is widely accepted that New Labour was a massive media project based on Bill Clinton's 'New Democratic Campaign' during the 1992 US Presidential Election and was aimed at introducing a Labour Government in 199x (many were amazed at how long Major DID survive.)

After 18 years in the wilderness the temptation of power was far too strong and it can be argued that many in the Labour party were prepared to sacrifice their own beliefs to win Office - the 'lesser' of two Evils (the other being a fifth Conservative Term.) If we need any clearer indication of this then perhaps Blair's stedfast support for George Bush - a right-wing Republican indicates this more than anything else. However, what was forgotten is that in the US, the political parties are widely different across the different regions of the US. Therefore, whilst a Labour MP in the UK will probably have the same views if he is in a Southern, Northern, Eastern or Western Constituency, a Republican in Texas may be an entirely different politican from a Republican in New York or California. By copying this model, Blair forced the Labour Party into a route that many (albeit privately) were not comfortable with (with only mass unease from 2003 onwards peaking in 2004.)

Blair, like Thatcher, was good at winning elections. He was also an impressive orator - and many would prefer a return to 'sofa Government' than Brown's current style - and was personally popular. Consequently, many in the Labour Party (and the same in the Tory one during the 1980s) were prepared to sacrifice principle and ideology for power. Once Blair left (and in Thatcher's case looked weak and a liability) the glue that cements this uneasy coalition collapses - thus leading to unrest and Civil War.

It depends on how Brown plays the next few months. If he is removed then any future leader will be weaker - moreso than Brown. Whilst the Government has made humilitating U-Turns and concessions to backbenchers, the leadership of the Party - and the position of the PM has never reached a critical mass whereby it is extremely vulnerable. Major hit that problem and effectively stopped governing - he became frightened of his own MPs and his administration did little but die on its feet.

Blair has not plagued Brown with the same problems that Thatcher did for Major (no backseat driving comments yet), but he is in the same position - unfavourably compared to a popular predecessor. Disposing of Brown is not the answer and then perhaps winning the next election may not be either - 1992 has often been seen as the Tories' greatest defeat, it is arguable that 2010 could easily be prove the same for Labour.

#62 power_to_the_people, yes, I agree, we do need a decent opposition. New Labour were unchallenged for too long and we've ended-up in this position.

I think it's time for a change and that is obviously going to be the Conservatives, who, at the moment, appear to be totally unopposed (they are only challenged by the LibDems in certain areas).

The Conservatives are a bit of an unknown quantity at the moment because they haven't really shown their hand - lot's of ideas, yes, but nothing really of substance and that's worrying.

In London, Boris Johnson hasn't done anything significant and I think that's deliberate.

97 I agree with the points made in general but I cannot see Gordon Brown ever stepping down.

He genuinely seems to be so deluded that he believes his policies are what we want (they aren't) and this is how we want to be governed (it isn't). There are a myriad of reasons why the whole approach of him and his government are so unpopular - and its not all to do with the economic factors.

Watch out for a collect suicide pact from the cabinet, and the trukeys not voting for Christmas.