Consequence of devolution

This is a shrewd and brave move from Wendy Alexander. By robbing Alex Salmond of his straw man argument almost his entire programme for governance goes up in a cloud of smoke, and by giving people what they want Wendy Alexander’s star will shine accordingly.

Another plus from this may be that resolving the Scottish question may help provide a counterbalance to London and the, mostly, insignificant Mayor Johnson. A strong Scotland would be confident and assist the English in throwing off the arrogant yoke of a self-serving financial industry.

Wendy for the win-win. Hazzah!

I think that support for an independent Scotland is growing in England, but only if they agree to take Gordon Brown with them.

A really interesting referendum would be to ask if the English want independence from Scotland.

Sounds as though Wendy wants to try to get as far away from Gordon as possible.

The coverage so far doesn't seem to reflect that the SNP's referendum 2010 will probably be perfectly timed to coincide with England electing a Tory government.

Wendy has probably realised that Scotland was so scarred by the Thatcher years, and in particular the Poll Tax, that we won't risk something similar happening again. We hear the anti Scotland sentiment being stoked down there and we note that Brown's Scottishness is being used against him. If the referendum isn't held before the Tories get back in then there will be no chance for the Union.

The pressure for Independence was created by the Poll Tax: devolution gave us the safety valve.

I always thought that the election of the first Tory Government after devolution would bring about independence. I didn't think that Labour would be so useless that the SNP would get into power before that and set us up for it so perfectly. Scotland Free (Again) by 2010?

Incidentally, Scotland learned tactical voting to rid us of the Tories completely in '87. Do the recent Elections bear out that England is finally catching on to the idea? It may be the last hope to keep the Tories out of power and end the hopeless first past the post system.

This illustrates the NuLabour dilemma writ large; they are more interested in politics than people.

When will NuLabour get the message that people want their 10p tax back; want their documents back from HMRC; want to be empowered to live their own lives under the protection of the law not to suffocate under a blanket of rules and regulations and gestures.

The only thing Wendy Alexander should be urging Gordon Brown or anyone else to "Bring on" is the general election this country badly needs. Devolution is a sideshow.

Part of the electorate has told Gordon Brown what it thinks of him last Thursday. If he is admitting he made a mistake with the election that never was he should rectify this mistake by calling one now.

The conceit of the apology for the election that never was is that he has no intention of calling one until he has driven us further into the mire, spent more of our money, ignored further endless reviews and generally wreaked havoc.

He's an amazing man in many ways but the most remarkable way is his ability to pick himself up and make another giant tom fool of himself all over again. He seems to have an endless appetite for self embarrassment and delusion. He's like a balloon that has been let go and is firing uncontrollably all over the room knocking things over. But he keeps blowing himself back up again and letting go.

It's now apparent to his critics and supporters alike that truth is always stranger than fiction; you couldn't possibly have made up the last nine months of this man's life story. Some may have predicted he would be a total disaster but there was no-one saying there'd be the worst election disaster for forty years. No one said his own vainglorious track record as chancellor would backfire so quickly on him.

Please give us our country back; the nice tolerant country where people were polite, tried for their chances in life and made their own choices. The country where people minded their own business but looked after each other. The country before NuLabour came to spend all our money to no visible effect.

I don't know if Charles_E_Hardwidge is being sarcastic (I hope so) as this incredible u-turn by Wendy Alexander is breathtaking. The SNP has always been up front with it's timetable for a referendum and this was always put down by Labour and the other Unionist parties in Scotland. Not because of any timescale but because they simply did not want a referendum. The SNP have at least treated the Scottish people with some respect (something the Labour party would never dream of) by letting us judge them on their first term in Government and if we don't like them, then we do not vote for independence. TNorie has hit the nail on the head. Wendy now knows that Labour will not be in power at Westminster after the next general election, as the tories will be voted in, and knows that the Scottish people would rather have independence than face another Tory administration at Westminster. This effectively spells the end of Scottish Labour. Scottish Labour and particularly Wendy Alexander will never be forgiven for treating the Scottish electorate with such contempt that she thinks we cannot see through her rather pathetic attempts to put her parties interests before her own people. Shame on her.

Wendy Alexander has opened Pandora's box just an inch or two.

She presumably hopes it doesn't get fully opened, since the idea of the breakup of the UK is gaining momentum. The real imptus for this may come from English voters who are fed up of the New Labour cabal of Scottish MPs deciding their fate and who have the impression that they are subsidising Scotland - leaving aside whether this is true or not. Truth is rarely the deciding factor in political calculation.

And she should remember that the only thing that was left inside Pandora's box once greed, vanity etc. had escaped was hope.

The people of Berwick-upon-Tweed may face an interesting dilemma in a few years' time!

Nick,
It's not so much a gap between northern and southern politics as a gap between politicians and reality.
Oh and Charles, Wendy Alexander is a joke, not shrewd, not brave, just a joke!

#1's comment. Can only say this is wishful thinking. And a dreadful load of tosh.

Under no circumstances did Labour want a referendum and they even set up a commission to look at devolution - what more powers did the Scottish Parliament need, what powers should be handed back to Westminster (yeah, right)?. And the commission was specifically instructed not to look at independence!

At any time in the past year they could have "called the SNP's bluff" but choose not just to ignore the opportunity but to actually come out clearly against the idea of a referendum.

Why now? Desperation for an answer to the SNP challenge is the only reason. And, God, is Wendy desperate.

Good luck to the Scots.

When will the English get a say?

Does this mean that Labour Party policy is now also to support a referendum in England on independence? Not only would we lose the burden of the subsidy to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Cornwall, but we could send back the Scottish Prime Minister, the Scottish Chancellor, the Scottish Speaker of the House of Commons, and the Scottish Royal Family.

This is good news indeed. I do hope that the Scots do not allow themselves to be intimidated into thinking that they are not strong enough to go it alone.

All they need now is some confidence in their own ability to run their affairs - just like Ireland and so many other smaller European states.

Their dominance in financial services, along with oil, tourism and whisky (still a strong export) should convince them that they do not need the support of the 'Union' to prosper

The two economies will continue to be closely linked - EU membership will guarantee free movement of people, capital, goods and services; and the Northern Ireland/Republic border shows that no border cotrols need be imposed.

The need to co-operate with a close neighbour to whom England is joined with a land border will be a welcome brake on the power of both the English and Scottish Goverments to step too far out of line on issues such as taxation and regulation.

Independence for Scotland will be good news for Scotland and England, and enhance the respect of both nations for each other

Dear Nick,
Poitics between Scotland and Britain are at there most dangerous in over 300 years.
AS the Regions are going to change under European Law, and different parts of the UK will be a kin to being a member governed from Brussels, all this bravardo and political chit chat is irrelative, as Scotland will not be in the Uk Region, so its Independance is has been set out for it anyway. Much as Devolution has paved the way for such changes to the Governance and political decision making for the whole of Europe. #
Great Britain is being carved up into a European super state and there is absolutely no one can do about it UNless the people get a referendum, and that is what Gordon "SCOTS FOR EVER" Brown will not allow, nor will The Tories Nor will the libs, this EU state is set in stone ever sinve the day it was concieved by Churchill Retinger, Spaak, and Sandy's back in 1941.

Yes please, give Scotland independence now just so long as they take their MPs back.

I see the anti-Scottish brigade has moved over to the blogs from HYS!

I think Wendy should maybe go for it, but if she does they MUST rip the SNP's argument about economics apart.

Too many unanswered questions:

Armed Forces - who pays the pensions?

Non-english living in England?

People living in Scotland who were born in England?

Public sector pensions?

Education, Health, Security, Defence, Driving Licences, Passports. Energy - the SNP are against nuclear and coal power. PFI is another serious issue.

The SNP are not a party, but a personality, that of Alex Salmond. Had he not been there they would not have come anywhere near the number of seats they won.

Oil is a poor argument, since England could argue that English taxpayers' money funded a lot of the research.

What does not help however is the BBC's insistence on promoting ill-informed debates on the Union.

A breakup of the UK would not benefit anyone. The cost would be far too high, all for the sake of a few egos.

I suspect even the SNP secretly agree that full independence would be disastrous for Scotland.


However I don't expect that to stop them from using it for political capital and a general political fly-swatter for as long as New Labour tried to use the previous Conservative administration as such.

A shrewd political move to try and force the issue.

A smart and obvious move from Labour North of the border, but if their counterparts in the south's record is anything to go by, she will soon back down as soon as it looks like the SNP might win. Will the Labour party make the same sort of decision south of the border? Give us the referendum on the EU treaty as they promised? Don't hold your breath, and yet that is the very minimum they need to do to gain any of their former support back.

Thursday's election was not a call to "pull your socks up Gordon" or a reaction purely to the 10p tax bad being DOUBLED (it was NOT abolished) People paying tax on that band are now and will continue to pay tax at 20p, that is NOT an abolition. I wish the media would finally after 14 months and hundreds of letters finally understand and report the simple truth that this was a tax doubling not a tax abolition.

No the 10p tax was merely the straw that broke the camel's back. The re-introduction of 10p will not fix the splintered vertebrae.

What the 10p tax doubling showed in very simple and graphic terms was the character of a Government that will spend more than £100 billion pounds in loan guarantees propping up billionaire bankers, whilst doubling the income tax on 5 million of the poorest people in the country.

That stark realisation is what has not only lost labour a big chunk of their natural support, but utterly disgusted and sickened many of those whose father's and grandfather's had always voted labour so they must too... It took such a stark contrast to throw into graphic relief the difference between the support that Labour cravenly give to the billionaire bankers and the sickening contempt in which they hold their working class base.

That kind of awakening, forced by the sudden sickening jarring of realisation of contemptuous betrayal cannot be bought off lightly.

Thursday's election was NOT a warning shot. It was not the labour party failing to get their message across. Labour's message, by their numerous and on-going vile, arrogant and corrupt actions, has got across very very clearly indeed and the result on Friday morning was the country had told that complacent and arrogant Labour party to go and go now. Never return. No excuses, no fourth or fifth chances, no cheap policy initiatives to buy our support back. Labour have had numerous warnings before. Every national election since 2001, except ONE general election, has been won by the Tories. that is every local and European election was a warning to labour. They did NOT listen to any of them. The sight of an unelected labour leader lecturing Mugabe on democracy after Brown has reneged on a promise to hold a referendum on the EU treaty sticks firmly in the throat.

Thursday was a national cry of enough is enough! Get out of power and never darken our political landscape with your oppressive centrist authoritarian politically correct ineptitude and corruption ever again.

No matter who many weak and soft questions you pose for Brown, Nick, he is utterly finished in this country.

I would ask that anyone who still had the hatred in their hearts or the mendacity to vote labour to explain to me, how it is morally acceptable to spend billions bailing out the billionaire bankers whilst doubling the income tax on 5 million of the poorest workers in the land?

Voting labour now is on a par with racism or gender/sexual preference discrimination and should be legally classed as a hate crime.

So NewLab are in favour of Referendums now are they ?

Sounds like a (failed) GCSE level diversionary tactic which Alexander wants to play on the Scots to deflect attention in an attempt to scoop Brown out of the mire and morass of his own NewLab making

It is a pity that Brown and Alexander didn't consider the Referendum route as identifying the will of the people, BEFORE he squashed the British People's wish to have one on the European Takeover.

But then again he wasn't listening then and he won't in the future, as he thinks he ALWAYS knows best.

The only thing these out of touch NewLab failures are willing to listen to are their own words.

About time they took a long walk off Wigan Pier.

Yes, as the guy above said, EU plans to abolish England (though not, of course, Scotland -they wouldn't be so foolish as to try) have been around since the seventies at least, and are backed by the British left.
But the Scots going alone should be cause for hope for us in England as it will be much harder fro the EU and Co. to break up an independent England than it will an England enmeshed in the increasingly meaningless Union.
But the referendum, of it happens must be 'yes' or 'no'. Any side option of 'more powers for the Scots Parliament' is unacceptable as that will be more things they can vote on in Westminster but our MPs cannot for Scotland. No, if they want more power, the Scots have to 'walk the walk' and go it alone. Good luck to them. The Welsh too. Independence for England, and to hell wih the EU!

The gap between Westminster politics and politics in the devolved Scottish parliament is simple: in Scotland there are no English representatives voting on exclusively Scottish issues, whereas at Westminster this extraterritorial nonsense remains. The unresolved West Lothian question is actually exacerbated by devolution.

Of course were Mr Brown REALLY brave and insightful, he'd see the advantage of creating separate, independent, legislative assemblies with a representative Union Council to coordinate them in areas where they choose to cooperate (like shared armed forces, or common defence policy). Unions or confederations are not an impossibility. Our problem is that the Act of Union, and the 1801 act too, created the idea without creating the constitutional institutions to give it meaning. The result is a mess. Mr Brown, solve it.

Why do people think the English wanting their say in devoultion as being anti-Scottish, I would say it's just fairness.

Why can only the Scots, Welsh or Northen Irish have devolution?

The English have become lazy and arrogant. A generation of fear and greed has hollowed out the country and we’re running on momentum. This is not a good place to be but the Prime Minister’s humbleness and full blooded cry from Scotland’s First Lady will help stir even the dullest and most slovenly from their lair. The only thing we’re missing is a passionate chorus from the Welsh but I’m sure they’ll join the cause soon enough. Sarcastic? I’m positively brimming with exuberance

One nation under God. One nation under Blessed Leader!

(Oh, dear, dear. Well, c'mon. Someone has to write it...)

If there is to be a push for an independent Scotland, then that would be a complete break up of the UK. That should only be allowed if a majority of people in the UK vote for it in a referendum...

So, when will the people in the UK be given a referendum? The vast majority of the UK was excluded from any say in a referendum over devolution. The English portion of the union making up at least 9 tenths of the union, was excluded altogether. Under new labour, claims for independence would likewise exclude the vast majority of those in the union from any say in it's break-up.

Unelected, Brown's New Labour really do make Mugabe look like a beacon of democracy.

However, should the union break up, and Scotland become independent, then they should be excluded from the EU as a new independent nation and be made to queue up to join. They are only in the EU as a client state of the UK. If they are no longer a part of the UK, then they are no longer a part of the EU!

Leave our Wendy alone!

She is brave enough to bite the bullet and call SNP's bluff, that alone makes her quite astute/brave.

Then again, she is only out to save her own neck come the revolution, sorry, next (S) National (P) Election. A cowardly/atypical polictical move.

But she is (Albeit Scottish) a dish!!!!!!!

May we live in interesting times.

MarkfromEngland, the English were strangely quiet during the Thatcher era when the Scottish Office was dominated by English MPs. Why was that ok, but the reverse situation "extraterritorial nonsense"? Double standards and hypocrisy methinks. If it was OK then, it should be OK now.

purpleDogzzz - "If they are no longer a part of the UK, then they are no longer a part of the EU!". That's a good point and I'd quite like to see a straight answer to it. My understanding is that if Scotland leaves the UK then the UK doesn't exist any more, so England would become an independent nation that would have to queue to rejoin as well.

But she is (Albeit Scottish) a dish!!!!!!!

Wendy's a shoe in for babe of the year. Bit of a Pepper to Gordon Brown's Tony Stark, don'tcha think? With a splash of gold and a large swath of red, the Labour Party is shaping up to be the 'Iron Man' of British politics. That's quite the narrative. There's nothing like entertainment to bring in political coin and this weeks run is shaping up to be a blockbuster. I'm suprised the media hasn't already made the connection.

Claonaite.

Good point about the EU.
I suspect if an independent England were to be put in a queue to re-join the EU, the chances of us bothering to stay in that queue would be..er..slim.

Also good point on the Scottish Office. But two wrongs don't make a right. If the Scots now do wnt self-determination it's time for them to say so. No half measures like we have now. In or out. Good luck to them.

It's all very well for the Scottish and the Welsh to talk about independence but what about us poor English? We're still stuck down here with a government who couldn't give a stuff about you unless you can fund their next campaign.


I'll happily support Scottish independence as long as we can redraw the border to be somewhere around Watford beforehand.

So the Scots may vote for independence. Hmmmm... plenty of silver linings there:

1. We get rid of Brown.

2. The breakup of the UK will mean that England will have to re-apply to join the EU. We'll need a referendum for that. England may chose not to. ('... and with one bound we were free!').

3. We get rid of Darling, Gorbals Mick and the others Nu Lab vegetables.

4. We get rid of Brown.

5. we get rid of Brown.

6. We get rid of Brown.

7. No more Brown...

When you create a democratic system so poorly thought thorough that a devolved parliament can vote to give its people a perk (tuition fees) and who’s same elected representatives then head over the border and vote to deny it to the people who pay for it, you create a festering sore. Festering sores either get lanced quicky or grow so that amputation becomes the only solution.

The price of having your say is paying your way. I wonder just how many of these extra perks would pass through the Scottish parliament if they had to be paid for by taxing the Scotts.
True devolution would make that so.

Does anyone really think that a disgracd politician like wendy alexander would actually give the scots a referendum ??????

like the one we got on the EU treaty it will pie in the sky.....

Nice try Wendy but its been done to death your words are worth nothing.

That's quite the narrative. There's nothing like entertainment to bring in political coin and this weeks run is shaping up to be a blockbuster. I'm suprised the media hasn't already made the connection.

So Chuck Hogwash turns out to like nothing more than a shallow salesman, woman or three?

After all that conceited Zen Buddhism nonsense? That's the problem with NuLibor... they just steal the Tories policies now; best vote them out and have the real thing.

This Labour shower are spinning around like dithering tops. It's highly amusing to watch and long may their humiliation last. Luckily the media has picked up in this connection.

As for Wendy Alexander a babe.. I know you're not spoilt for choice in Scotland but really. I'd sooner suck the sweat out of an old sock.

Nice try Wendy but no cigar!
SNP are in charge now , not you!
In their manifesto they promised a referendum in 2010, after proving themselves capable of government.
I think thats the best idea any political party has EVER come up with !
And so far so good , streets ahead of any other!
This sudden conversion is most interesting , particularly if one watched the excruciating
interview with Ms Alexander on Channel 4 News last night.
I have'nt stopped laughing yet!

'But she is ... a dish!'

Good grief!

I might be totally wrong but Wendy Alexander reminds me of Hillary Clinton.

In the sense of having that overwhelming sense of 'entitlement'.

I guess that is an unhealthy by-product of ruling-the-roost for so long up there in Scotland.

Whatever, the Scots must do whatever they must ... a key point is that they retained their own legal system upon joining the 'Union' all those centuries ago.

That is a crucial lever as Scots now seek their independence.

Incidentally, as far as the EU is concerned, Scotland (and Wales) is a country/region in its own right.

Unlike poor old England, which the Tories, at the behest of the EU, eviscerated into several regions in the early 1990's.

Therefore, in the political sense, England literally does not exist at present, no thanks to the Tories.

So Chuck Hogwash turns out to like nothing more than a shallow salesman, woman or three?

Nah, just the driver.

-- Charles "Happy Hogan" Hardwidge.

Sorry to dash your hopes, but under international law, since England is by far the most populous and economically powerful member of the Union, it would almost certainly be regarded as the successor state to the UK, and would thus assume all of its treaty obligations – including EU membership. A successor state is free to dissolve these obligations, but they aren’t revoked by default.

The same thing happened after the dissolution of the USSR – Russia was by far the most populous and economically powerful of the newly independent states, so it succeeded the USSR’s treaty obligations – otherwise there wouldn’t have been an Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty in force for the US to revoke.

As a Scot who saw the unfairness of the system when English MPs under Tatcher and Major's Governments who did not have a mandate in Scotland dictate how Scotland was governed I do have some sympathy for the English who feel like their are under some "Scottish cabal".

However, it is worth pointing out that Labour DOES have a mandate in England because it has more English MPs than all the other parties put together.

I am also interested by this notion that English voters must have a say as well. Does that mean if the UK ever has a vote on whether or not to leave the EU then the rest of the EU must have a say as well and we could only leave if a majority of voters across Europe wanted rid of us?

As for the Labour supporters who are praisng Wendy I take it you don't live in Scotland or have any interest in Scottish politics?

Wendy is a very poor politician, even worse leader, is unpopular in her own party, unpopular in the country as a whole and is only where she is due to the fact that she is Gordon Brown's protege.

The whole idea is a panic measure to her pitiful leadership. She has even fallen for the spin regarding what type of referendum to have and pledged to hold the exact type of referendum the SNP want - a straight yes or no question. What will be interesting is the reaction of the Tories and the Liberals.

As for the Labour Party we have already seen some of their MPs briefing against her on this issue.

As for #17 mightyFop I take it you don't know many nationalists. There's not a single one who doesn't think that independence would be anything but a good thing for Scotland. The desperate spinning has started already

Some interesting comments already from both sides.

I have a few questions (if Nick permits me).

Labour Supporters:

Justify Scottish MPs voting on English-only issues.

SNP Supporters:

Explain precisely how Scotland can be self-supporting economically in the long-term, including all current spending plus new additional ones that would emerge.

Perhaps Nick and his colleagues could try asking Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond the same questions.

Interesting to see Scottish Labour now backing a referendum. I think it is a good idea, but badly thought out...

The previous SNP idea of a referendum would have had 3 options:
1) Independence
2) More powers within devolution
3) Keep the Status Quo

With people indicating their preferences 1, 2 or 3. This looks to me like an attempt to muddy the waters and try to leave the door open for a gradual split, even if people made it clear they don't want independence.

A better referendum, which hopefully Labour will bring in will be simply:

Should Scotland be independent? Yes or No.

Wendy should have discussed this idea first with the Tories and Lib Dems. If they back Labour's plan, then they can get it through Holyrood (especially as the SNP wouldn't dare oppose a referendum on independence!)

It is a high stakes gamble by Wendy, but hopefully it will come off. The latest opinion polls show that at most 40% of Scots back independence, with 60% against so the referendum will be comfortably defeated, and hopefully the issue will be killed off for at least 20 years.

If I were her though, I would pull a "sickie" at the next First Min's Questions on Thursday as she will be in for a massive ribbing from Mr Salmond!

I don't think the English do want a vote on Scottish independence, they just want to UK govt to fund on an even handed basis.

Many Scots tell me that the free everything approach in Scotland is nothing to do with funding, but has to do with how well they manage the economy up there.

If that is the case, they can afford to level the funding in the UK.

As Labour are desperate in England and keen to show the Scottish the true cost of independence, they might just do it.

So Labour wants a referendum now, this must be not to lose any more votes or is it that they're playing the 10p tax fiddle under a different theme - must have thought we came down the Thames on a cream cracker....!

Why did they not say so at the beginning... hey, maybe they're trying the U turn in reverse?

I just don't believe what they say anymore... probably what they think is twaddle and what they say is twaddle, there is not one single person in the Labour party that could convince me otherwise..!

Don't they know government is about making policies and not changing like the wind!

Let the Scottish people decide and not the politicians, but independence MUST mean independence lock stock and barrel - no half measures.

If we had a decent UK government they wouldn't want to become independent, the Scots clearly think they can do a better job at running the country than these lot at No. 10.... and it looks that they are right.

Whenever the question of devolution and its unfair consequences for England are discussed, I always see some Scots trotting out the weary old mantra about when, under Thatcher, England dominated Scotland so it's just a matter of the shoe being on the other foot now. This is both absurd and factually incorect. Yes, England dominated politics, but when you enter a union with a far larger neighbour what else did Scotland expect? That may have been unfair, depending on your point of view, but it was clear from the first days of the Union that Scotland would be overshadowed by England, just because of scale and population. The point is, however, that there was never a time, even under Thatcher, when Scotland's MP's were banned from voting through measures for England. Every MP had an equal say on legislation, north and south of the border. That is no longer the case. English MP's have no say on Scottish domestic policies, but Scottish MP's do have a say on English-only policies(and have used their votes to force through unpopular measures which would otherwise have been defeated). If you cannot see the difference, then perhaps you should look more closely. The present situation is so unfair that it is stocking resentment towards Scotland among moderate Englismen and women, although the fault is actually with this Labour government. I do not favour the breakup of the UK, but the present situation cannot stand.

#40 "Explain precisely how Scotland can be self-supporting economically in the long-term, including all current spending plus new additional ones that would emerge."

Neil - as a net contributor to the Treasury Scotland is already self-supporting. Not sur what new spending would be incurred since we already pay for everything now - the only difference would be to save money - no funding of wars (Iraq/Afghanistan/next one), no WMD (Trident and its replacement), no projets de grandeur (Millenium Dome/Olympics/next one). We would spend our resources on infrastructure and public services instead, just like all those other small independent European countries who thrive with a fraction of Scotland's wealth of resources.

I'm happy for the Scots to have a referendum on Scotland staying in the UK - providing the English have one first on England staying in the UK.
After all, the Scots might well want to stay in a Union where they could dominate and subsidize the Welsh and Northern Ireland themselves.

Wendy Alexander coming out in favour of a referendum is tantamount to turkeys voting for Christmas!

Also most of the comments from south of the border confirm what a recent piece of research found when analysing the BBC 'national' network news. It is skewed against the Celtic nations and gives disproportionate coverage to English only news items, deeming them to be 'British'.

It is not surprising that comments emanating from England about devolution are ill informed and in many instances just plain wrong.

The point that is missed is that it is the governance of England that is the anomaly in the post devolution era, as there is an inability to differentiate what is purely English from British.

The train has left the station now that Boris is in City Hall; Cameron will now arrive at No 10 in 2010, with a referendum on Scottish independence a year later.

As a result Scotland will either become independent or there will be a complete constitutional reform of the UK into a federal state, which seems to work well in many other parts of the world.

As an Englishman,I support Alex Salmond's
aim of independence for Scotland, provided of course that it is genuine independence and doesn't involve continuing to be subsidised, via the Barnett formula grants, to enjoy the well documented superior benefits and services compared to those available in England !
An even more serious issue is that Scottish and Welsh constituency M.P.s at Westminster are able to vote on matters that just affect England,whilst English constituency M.P.s have no reciprocal rights
in respect of Scotland or Wales! Effectively this makes England the least democratic country in the E.U., indeed compared with any democracies worth the name! Only Labour with its oligarchic and control -freak mind -set could have thought this one up! So,more enthusiastically, I support the
concept of independence for England. But then, as with the promised referendum vote on the E.U. constitution, it is highly unlikely
that the 50+ million (and counting) people of England (reduced by Labour's biassed devolution arrangements to second class citizenship)will be allowed any say in the matter.What we all need, in this now dis-united kingdom, are politicians with integrity
and a genuine belief in DEMOCRACY. Bring them on !!
Alternatively we the people of England,could follow the example set by the founding fathers of the U.S.A. in their
Constitution and create an English Parliament free from interference from other
countries !!

I still feel we are sleepwalking to disaster and nobody is taking the long term view in. As an English guy in Scotland my view they will go down that road if the SNP shows the economy will cope then I am all for it. A minority want independence but the "NO" vote is very soft if the economic issues are resolved. Does England want a partner whose only there for the dosh? But should we have forked out on Trident when the UK could break up; where would we site the subs in England etc etc. Most of the alternative energy sites seem to be in Scotland and Wales. Are our options covered for energy security? If Scotland leaves the UK will Wales follow? Probably. If its England and NI will they also depart for Ireland? If so what will all of the Loyalist terrorists do? Will they shove off to Scotland. Will our great leaders cover all the options? Probably not.

As a Scottish nationalist I have no problem with English politicians being the only people to vote on English matters. I just don't like the hypocrisy of the same people complaining about Scots voting at Westminster having no problems when the reverse is true.

As far as Wendy's plans go it is quite amusing watching Labour supporters trying to pretend that this is a great idea and has snookered the Scottish Govt.

To edinchris a couple of things are worth pointing out. The polls show that on a straight yes or no independence and the status quo are locked at about the same numbers although neither has a majority. They also show that in the region of a fifth of Scotland are still undecided.

Independence does much better when it is a straight vote so keep trying to pretend that this isn't what the SNP want. Alex Salmond lay a trap for Wendy and typically she fell for it.

The people running nuLabour are the root of their problem - certainly north of the border. Who is Wendy Alexander anyway and what is she to a "traditional" labour supporter? Exactly.

The sort of people that wanted Denis Canavan out of the party all those years ago may think that she is a winner but the people of Scotland seem to think otherwise.

No one can really identify with these people anymore except maybe those within the Labour party itself and of course the ill-informed masses that pay so little attention to politics that they would probably vote for a monkey-on-a-stick as long as it had a red rosette on. And even they are starting to come around.

Desperate times. Time to play the FEAR card. Paint that black future under the evil spectre of independence. Yeah yeah it'll never work - we're lucky to have Gordon Brown looking after our interests etc

You know what? People are getting fed up being told what they CAN'T DO. Especially when the people telling us that we "can't possibly survive on our own" are the same people who have been sitting on their hands for the last 10 years doing absolutely nothing for the people they are paid to represent.

I don't know if independence is the best option but I look at what the people telling me it'll work have achieved in 12 months and compare that to what the people trying to shoot it down in flames have delivered over many years. Think I know which way I'm leaning at the moment.

Shouldn't she have resigned months ago?

Anyway yet more reason not to vote Labour, in as much that they have destroyed the Union as much as they possibly could over the last 10 years. Another strategic move to do just that here as well. Well done Gordon!

Honestly folks, i really don't care what happens to Scotland.

As a previous poster said, please take your politicians back to Scotland. Not only do they make poor decisions but sometimes it is difficult to undersatnd what they are actually saying.

As for me , I'm English and Ukrainian through and through!!!

Shows how desperate wendy is if she can only find this to pick on!

purpleDogzz #24, you really need to learn more about the make up of the UK.

The UK is not 1 country, it's a union of countries (or kingdoms). If one country in the nion wants to change the relationship with the others, it's up to the people of that country, not the others. If the people if the other countries can't live with the changes, they should walk away, not chain the country in some sort of subservitude.

As to the EU, Brussels has already states that as the UK is a union of countries, and each country is already part of the EU (seperate bills had to be passed for English/Welsh law, Scots law, etc.) then neither Scotland, England, Wales or N. Ireland would need to reapply for membership.

"Sorry to dash your hopes, but under international law, since England is by far the most populous and economically powerful member of the Union, it would almost certainly be regarded as the successor state to the UK, and would thus assume all of its treaty obligations ? including EU membership"

If the EU wants england that is. The EU has shown that it is commited to weaker countries such as Ireland and look at the success in Ireland now.

People living in England had no say on Scottish devolution. We now find ourselves in the absurd position that Scottish MPs can vote at Westminster on matters that affect England, but English MPs have no say as to what happens in Scotland.

To make matters worse, Scotland has too many MPs per head of population compared with England. This over-representation inevitably favours Labour who traditionally do better North of the border.

It's also worth noting that the population of London is roughly the same as Scotland and Wales put together. While Scotland enjoys its own Parliament, Londoners have to make do with an expensive and useless Assembly. Whilst in office, King Ken was able to treat the Assembly with contempt.

Labour's plans for regional assemblies were always doomed to failure. We don’t need yet more tiers of expensive and unnecessary bureaucracy.

I am not in favour of full independence for Scotland. I believe in this shrinking world, we are much better of together. But if the Scottish people want full independence, then England must have its own Parliament too.

The current mess created by Labour is democratically untenable.

"If there is to be a push for an independent Scotland, then that would be a complete break up of the UK. That should only be allowed if a majority of people in the UK vote for it in a referendum...

So, when will the people in the UK be given a referendum? The vast majority of the UK was excluded from any say in a referendum over devolution. The English portion of the union making up at least 9 tenths of the union, was excluded altogether. Under new labour, claims for independence would likewise exclude the vast majority of those in the union from any say in it's break-up.

"They are only in the EU as a client state of the UK. If they are no longer a part of the UK, then they are no longer a part of the EU!"

English imperialism at it's best! If Scotland is a client state then it has it's own internal affairs and other countries are not allowed to interfere in other countries internal affairs so you are contradicting yourself while proving yourself to be an imperialist! And ignorant due to the fact that england will need to reapply to the EU as well!

The break up of the United Kingdom would be a disaster for all the home nations. Together we forged the greatest empire the world has ever seen, together we started the industrial revolution and we are still one of the most successful countries in the world. Broken up we would become just another bunch of small squabbling countries on the edge of Europe. Don't let the little men take over.

Why is the old tired mantra of the Thatcher years trotted out and the Scots did not vote for her. True a majority of Scots did not vote for her but a significant minority did.

You could equally argue that the Labour Governments (with the exception of 1945 and the Blair years) were not voted for by a majority of the English population. They only gained power because of Scottish and Welsh m.p.'s. The English did not compalin that those labour Governments were forced on them by a minority of Welsh and Scottish. They acepted it, it is called shared democracy.

The difference now is that the English are not allowed to vote on Scottish matters, where as the Scottish m.p.'s can and do vote on English matters. The worst example was tuition fees which were forced on the English only with the help of Scottish m.p.'s. At the same time their constituents did not have to pay them. This is wrong.

Can you imagine if the reverse was true, English m.p.'s could vote on Scottish only matters and Scots could not vote on English only matters. It would not happen

#45 made me laugh with the comment:

" the only difference would be to save money - no funding of wars (Iraq/Afghanistan/next one), no WMD (Trident and its replacement),"

Have you not noticed that we are on our second successive Scottish PM, second successive Scottish Chancellor and we have a Scottish Secretary of Defence?

With that record, if Scotland became independent, you would have to bear the costs of their overseas adventures and nuclear weapons and it would be England that was free of the expense.

Further to my above post it may be interesting to note in 1979 in Scotland, 31% voted for Thatchers Government, 41% voted labour. People cannot keep saying Thatcher had no support in Scotland, she picked up 22 seats in Scotland. She only had a majority of 44 in the country as a whole. If Scotland had not voted for her in sufficient numbers there would have been no majority and we would not have had Thatcher - depressing to think but the Scots helped her to power.
Again this is what happens in a shared democracy

are labour really intent on staying in power whatever the consequences for the Union?
bring use of the treason law back !

It really is completely unacceptable for the Scots to decide on whether to stay in the United Kingdom, it is a decision that can only be made by the voters of the Union as a whole. It was Gordon Brown who was extolling the virtues of the Union only a couple of months ago wasn't it?

And BTW is CEH after a Honour in Gordon Brown's resignation honours list? His posts are either that of a second rate spin doctor or someone so out of touch with reality that he never sees the sunlight.

The Indians send signals from the rocks above the park,is downing street watching?are the 52 Scottish MP,s enraged,my guess is "BIG TALK IN TENT WITH PEACE PIPE" to discuss big "QUESTION" where are we going does anybody know.......????????

Since I started to take an interest in politics about ten years ago, I rapidly realised that the English and Scottish peoples broadly have quite different ideas about how to run their respective countries.

Scottish people seem to lean towards the Scandinavian socialist model.

Whereas the English are more towards a 'mixed' model of socialism and capitalism.

Given that fundamental difference, it is hardly surprising that there are political problems from time-to-time.

I feel that the Union has been historically good but now the cracks are just too wide and no amount of papering over can disguise that.

Both countries need to pursue their own paths now.

Only 'British' politicians are blocking that path.

"At 8:03 pm on 06 May 2008, -osian- wrote:
If the EU wants england that is. The EU has shown that it is commited to weaker countries such as Ireland and look at the success in Ireland now."

Look at the success of Ireland over the period of previously unseen world wide economic boom (born on the back of the one way, one time issue of globalisation).

Look at Ireland now and in the foreseeable future and the outlook is nothing like as rosy.

To have a chance at mirroring Ireland's growth, Scotland needed to have become fully independent in the early 90's.




As always in the good times it's easy to go it alone, but in the bad times it's good to have helpful neighbours.

Come on guys, if Scotland have independence from us, it would benefit us in rip of England.

Scotland would take on the euro, they would have two feet in Europe unlike us one foot, they would have all benefits like cheap cigs , beer,wines, cars and cheap loans, etc etc, and the big plus, Brown could not put customs offices at a check point, so come on Scotland and roll on independence.

Gordonayr's comment,apart from his first
paragraph and the latter part of his final paragraph,is about as great an inversion of the reality about the state of the relationship between England and Scotland as I have read for some time.
The reality is that the Scots,who number approximately 5.1million (and without the massive immigration problems foisted on them by this incompetent(or malign -depending on your point of view) Scots dominated Labour government,are greatly
over-represented in government and its advisers,the executive and the media. For example,in Tony Blairs government no less than 22 ministers were Scots as were the chief government advisers on Transport,
Education and Health and the chief executive of N.I.C.E. who so frequently denies patients in England, on the grounds of costs , the drugs for treating serious illnesses such as cancer,Alzheimers and
Parkinson's diseases, which are available in Scotland and in some cases for years, because of the generous Barnett formula grants which allow £1500 more to be spent on every man woman and child in Scotland,
than is spent in England! As for the media situation,whilst Jon Snow is the token Englishman on Channel 4 News,the other news channels on both T.V. and radio are
mainly fronted either by Scots,Welsh, Irish or other ethnic minority announcers/present
-ers.Football match commentaries are mainly
the province of Lowland Scots sometimes with almost incomprehensible Glaswegian accents.So where is the bias against the Celtic fringe ? No, the reverse is true ! No
wonder Jeremy Paxman referred to the
"Scottish Raj".

Also for years people in England have been
aware of the hostility or near hostility of Scots towards England, expressed in their
support for any team playing football against England!Whereas, in my innocent younger years , after England I would support the other home countries against foreign opposition,until I realised that to the Celtic fringe England was the foreign
country!

So be it.I think now, along with all the economic disadvantages to England remaining in the Union,the time has come for the parting of the ways. Both Scots and
English however, should remember that the Act of Union in 1707,came about mainly at the behest of Scotland,because it was bankrupt as a result of failed South American investments. But as Michael Caine
would have said,"not many people know that !

#69

We in Scotland accept that almost every senior management post in 'Executive Scotland' has an Englishman or English woman as its head, why do you find it so hard to accept Scots in senior positions in England?

Even across the political spectrum there are English people representing Scottish voters...including the SNP.

Gordon Brown's cabinet is English dominated, the myth of Scottish domination says more about your narrow views and Scotophobia.

However, once independence arrives we in Scotland are sure that England will have the ability to stand on its own two feet without Scotland subsidising you. Russia may pose you some problems as regards your status as a permanent member of the security council in the UN and others may ask why you remain a member of the G8, but fear not we in Scotland wish you every good fortune.

pip pip old crocus.

I thought we were governed from Scotland !

Ewan from dumfries I do like your sense of humour, it is one thing both Nations have in common. When we do split apart (think it is inevitable at some time in the next ten years) I think we will become good neighbours and perhaps we can appreiciate more about what we have in common that what divides us

What a lot of xenophobia this discussion thread is generating!

There are TWO kingdoms in the United Kingdom (not four as some seem to suggest) and it seems perfectly reasonable for either of the two to review and reflect on the benefits of the union. Why are people automatically linking this to some sort of anti English or anti Scottish sentiment? Time to grow up.

For what is is worth, most of the Scots supporting independence, that I talk to, are not in the slightest bit anti English.

What they are definitely anti is being the London centric parliament that had been out of touch with the people of Scotland for at least 30 years, if not more. Scots recognise that London government is a busted flush that serves no purpose anymore. The surprising thing is why more people in the English 'regions' are not doing the same.

And as for the Scottish dominated cabinet (give me a break) if this was doing any good for Scotland then, believe me, the discussions about independence would not be going on.

You can all sit and throw veiled and unveiled insults at each other as much as you like, but I suggest that your energy might be better spent focusing on Westminster government and why it is failing the people. And that has sweet fa to do with Brown, Darling et al. It is to do with an establishment and governance mechanism that is failing the people. Be it Tory or Labour the problems will be the same.

It is time for England to wake up and do some serious reading about the state of government in the UK and why it is desperately needing change. Then you will see that you should be standing shoulder to shoulder with those in Scotland that are saying 'Enough is enough. It's time for the people to rise up and take control of the issue."

If England votes for Cameron then the union is likely going to end within the next decade. Drop the Neville Chamberlain naivety and start preparing your country for it! You have a lot to gain from it, but equally a lot to lose if you persist with the xenophobia as opposed to some serious consideration of the issues and the consequences.

P.S. Alex Salmond, Scotland's Prime Minister has talked about the nations of the British Isles working closely together for many years. He, like the overwhelming majority of Scots, are not anti English. That is something that is fabricated by "unionist' parties and media to try to undermine the any thoughts that the people have for exercising their democratic right to self determination.

Post 73 .. I agree that Alex Salmond is the best political friend us English have right now.

By way of contrast, the political 'establishment' at Westminster is practically the 'opposition' to us English.

Post-independence, there is no reason at all why England and Scotland should not work amicably together.

Scotland certainly has plenty of something we English would like to purchase, at a fair price ... fresh water!

I agree with RobinJD in most respect, but not that devolution is a sideshow. In fact, it is one of the greatest matters of concern facing Great Britain.

While I, as an Englishman, cannot fathom how a single issue party has got so far as the SNP has (though hats-off for the achievement), I do feel that a delusion is being perpetrated upon the Scots. With the ever increasing embrace of the EU, do they think they would be independent in any real for sense for any time, or resist its encroachment? Maybe they don't mind the EU as much as many English to whom I speak, but if it's independence that matters is it not better to support the UK and have your say in the nation we have jointly built, than be lost as a region of Europe? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to turn this blog into something other than intended, but the heading does use the term "consequences". Divide and conquer is the oldest trick.

I also feel that the topic turns English and Scots needlessly against each other, and squirm when I see anti-scottish comments on Have Your Say. It is shortsighted and can only be destructive. Are we not better working together to protect and improve what we have together?

Post #74 JohnConstable: There is indeed plenty of fresh clean water in Scotland, but you do not need too much of it. Whisky is best enjoyed with just a splash of water to release the aromas and flavour. Any more than a splash and you will ruin your fine malt!

Alex Salmond is an impressive leader and represents the people of scotland to great effect. I only wished we had some one of his stature representing England

In the 1997 general election campaign (on the today program if I remember correctly Nick) Alex Salmond was asked by the leader of the Orkney and Shetland island council if he would allow the islands to have referendum about the islands succeeding from Scotland as they didn't feel Scottish but Scandanavian! Needless to say he didn't answer the question.

What is the current position of people of Orkney and Shetland on indipendance from an indipendant Scotland?

EwanfromDumfries exhibits a significant degree of patronising arrogance in his response to my serious points about the serious imbalance in representation of Scots in the Westminster parliament.They still command the controlling heights of government if only in the shape of our painfully inadequate P.M and his equally incompetent "chancellor"Alistair Darling.Other Scots" notables" who are ministers include "wee" Dougie Alexander,the robotic part time Defence Secretary Des Browne and many ministers
in the various government departments, including Jim Fitzpatrick Ingram and Wilson as defence ministers ,Griffiths, McTaggart,Tessa Jowell,Anne McGuire,Bridget Prentice,Jim Murphy and last but not least the blatantly" partial to Labour" Speaker Michael Martin ,even in the eyes of many Labour supporters,the worst Speaker in living memory and then some.Recent leavers from the ranks, of course include that outstanding pedlar of false dreams,Tony Blair, Dr Reid and the former Foreign Secretary ,the late Robin Cook who was a man of integrity.
As a political gesture,on the advice of Jack Straw to allay the discomfort of English voters and emphasise his "Britishness" Brown appointed more English constituency M.P.s to become Ministers but being bureaucratic Socialists of little experience, they are equally incompetent.
The leading Scots advisers to government
also go unchallenged ,although the Senior medical officer Liam Donaldson came in for severe criticism from the B.M.A. for his apalling handling of the doctors training and employment crisis last year,that is unfortunately still mainlunresolved,although the main responsibility must lie with another,the Australian Patricia Hewitt.
No, I am not Scotophobic or racist, I just have a fondness for the reality and being factual, as many others are about the Scottish Raj in British politics!But the truth will out and I'm afraid that EwanfromDumfries's less than fair response to my letter has all the characteristics of one who can't bear to face the political truth and mocks those who respect the reality. And who are all these English administrarators who are running Scotland so well ? Clearly we need them this side of the border, that is if they exist in these positions in Scotland.

In addition, he can't deny the huge and fortunately increasingly well known disparity in expenditure on benefits and services available in Scotland but not in England , funded by the Barnett formula
grants from the Treasury,being grants over and above what is raised in taxation in Scotland and amounting to about £30 billions a year. So where does this money come from?Of course, the taxpayers of England? Even Lord Barnett has said that the Barnett formula devised about 30 years ago is now unfair to England.
When these grants secured equal benefits and services throughout the U.K.as they were intended.This was not a problem.
,After all we were supposed to be a United Kingdom.But, now that we are clearly not and especially, as these grants are being used by the Scottish executive , to give for example free university tuition at
Scottish universities not only to Scottish students but also to students from the E.U that are denied to English and also Welsh and Northern Ireland students,the question has to be asked,"What is the value of this Union when 5/6ths of its population, who are in England and subsidise the other members, are so disgracefully disadvantaged ?"
Another very pertinent question is what where the English constituency Labour M.P.s doing to allow this demeaning state
of affairs to come about. Could it be that
that they knew this would secure voters
for Labour in Scotland to keep them in power at Westminster and also give them a few crumbs of ministerial power from the Scottish high table? Independence for Scotland?please, please Bring it On A.S.A.P.
if only, because it will mean Independence for England.
Unfortunately, there is not much chance of this as the Scots know which side their bread is buttered and that they now "can have ther cake and eat it" and too many English constituency M.P.s are too anidine to stand up for the best interests of their constituents.But we in England can only live in hope!

#79 Tsk blueeyednorthman you wouldn't let it lie.

You are of course talking keech. Even Ken Livingstone recognised that Scotland gives far more to the UK treasury than it takes back.

"who are all these English administrarators who are running Scotland so well ?"

Old crocus you can have some of the iffier ones back any time you want.

Most of the chief executives of our local authorities are ran by English people, several of our National bodies are ran by English chaps and chapesses. At every rung of the upper echelons of the executive ladder you'll find someone born south of the border. Strikingly, more and more of them are coming round to the idea of an Independent Scotland, shocking eh?

Pip pip.

Tsk Ewanrfrom Dumfries,
Why on earth should I let you get away with your terminological inexactitudes.Once again you fail to recognise the reality that the Barnett formula grants to Scotland,
amounting to just over £30 billion a year and being amounts over and above what is raised in taxation in Scotland,come from the Taxpayers of England! And that these grants don't just fund equivalent benefits to those available in England ,but far superior ones as I outlined in my previous E-mails.You should read them . As for the Scottish heads of the various government departments most of whom I listed,but to which you can add Mc Cartney the Environment minister,they still overrepresent in government the 5.1million people of Scotland and constitute llittle better than an oligarchy. This is very clear that ,is to anyone interested in and who has any respect for there the truth.
My concern for the various agencies,such as N.I.C.E.,headed by Scots ,is not because they are Scots as such, but because they operate in an invidious way towards the
people of England ,by denying them the same quality of treatment,as I detailed, that they can look forward to in Scotland.

Needless to say, you don't dispute the accuracy of my evidence but choose to ignore it because it demolishes your highly predjudiced point of view. No,the one who is keech is you and too inclined to blether,which is not a sound or intelligent way to conduct a debate.I'm afraid in your
situation it's very much the case as David Steel M.S.P. said,courtesy of Lyndon B.Johnson,"the Scots cling to the Sabbath and any other damn thing they can lay their hands on"

So,roll on " Independence for England" and the sooner the better!

Why anyone in their right mind should quote Ken livingstone noted for "sucking up to terrorists" and being anti English, in support of their argument ,is beyond comprehension.Even his then Prime Minister Harold Wilson,described him as the
"most odious man in politics" Finally even the traditionally socialist Londoners saw
through him and voted instead for someone who is somewhat unkindly regarded by some, as a buffoon! But Boris,like a Prince
Hal, could well prove their decision a sound one.