Tuesday 13 September 2011

Hello pessimists!

Whatever happens next in the Eurozone is anyones guess but it might be ultimately characterised as 'my wall of money (ECB)' is bigger than 'your wall of money (market speculators)'.

This is a game that the ECB should always win, as it has the ability to conjure tens or hundreds of billions of electronic euros out of thin air and therefore should be able to face down any market speculator attacks.

Politicians notwithstanding.

Wiemar, eat yer heart out!

Looking forward to Dawkins.

Stand back a moment and look at what we are currently doing.

We allow our society to be heavily influenced by people who believe in the supernatural - no not Harry Potter fans, Lord of Rings fanatics, Trekkies or people who think they have been abducted by little green men from space - but those with even more pernicious beliefs.

In the Uk we give special influence and deference to one particular group of fantasists. These people believe that they - and only they - worship the one and only true god - every other group of believers in the supernatural are evil and will roast in hell for eternity -as do most of the numerous other fantistist groups about their rival sects.

We allow this group to pontificate about good & evil, morality and values, when historically they have murdered, tortured, multilated and abused anyone who disagreed with their dogma in the past - and much of this is still with us today. For example, if a child was born with a disability, this was seen as a visitation of God on the family to punish them for previous sins - or that a "bar steward" of the first water becomes terminally ill, if he repented then he could be miraculously be saved through prayer - i.e. prejudice, delusion and bigotry writ large.

We have hard wired this group into the fabric of our schools, hospitals, childrens' homes and even our system of government and allowed them to indoctrinate our children into their fantasies and impose their prejudices into our laws and public services.

If you wrote a book based on this model of a society, it would be seen as pure fantasy, but it is the reality of the Established Church of England in the UK - and many other religions in other countries.

Militant athiests of the world, Unite - all you have to lose is your susperstitiions!

Here`s one for Biased BBC! David Grossman talks about Ed Milliband!No doubt neither of them will be the right sort of Jews for our Zionist chums!

I certainly look forward to Jeremy's interview with Dawkins tonight!

#1

Pessimists are just mis-understood realists.

@3 Yes Richard!

My sister went to convent school at five and immediately started walk in her slleep and show other signs of agitation.It turned out that her "teacher" was a young nun from Ireland who was telling my sister she was possessed and wicked for writing with her left hand!

Ban all religious educational establishments NOW!

Dawkins deserves some airtime, if only to counter-balance the religious tendency.

I was thinking about this a while back, as my 17 year old cat was rapidly reaching the exit and realising that animals do seem gain a sense of their own mortality only in the final stages, whereas we humans usually become aware of it from the age of five or so.

Given that knowledge, if it did not already exist, we would probably be driven to invent a religion, with belief in an afterlife.

Which for many people, is preferable to visualising humans as essentially like computers, which at some point just shutdown and never reboot again.

'the need to indoctrinate children with science'

Our kids are more getting inspired by its wonders and potential from both the school and parents. Plus no harm in a bit of imaginative mythology being indulged in complement too, within reason.

Old-fashioned, but seems to be working.

But it is possible to see how 'indoctrinate' can appeal in some quarters.

And the constant presentation of such advocates over those who do indeed gain converts through simple inspiration and example.

Shame, though.

#3 Richard B

It is regrettable that Dawkins doesn't apply his considerable intellect and influence to challenge those far more pernicious peddlars of superstition - Mainstream Economists!!

The drivel they peddle is far worse for our wealth and our health.

Economics is not a real science:

https://forensicstatistician.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/is-economics-a-real-science/

No idea whether the Palestinian bid for Statehood will succeed or not at the UN but it needs to happen sooner rather than later, to lance a festering boil on the politics of the region.

The Palestinian Government on the West Bank seem to have done a remarkable job so far in administering their territory.

It may be a bit unfair, but the current Israeli position sort of reminds this blogger of the politics of apartheid South Africa or the 'Unionists' of NI- that is, obstructive and defiant.

Back in the mists of time, were'nt the Israelis and the Arabs all from the same tribes?

Well, even if not, the human denominator should trump all other considerations.

@8

What is preferable about telling lies to children? The false alternative that you offer of people being nothing more than computers if they aren`t suffering from religious delusions is illogical nonsense.

Like other animals I am a sentient creature who will die and that will be the end of me. How does that make me akin to an electronic machine?

Let`s guess who on this thread had a religious "education"!

I am beginning to think Kashibeyaz has a point about the English!

6.At 15:45 13th Sep 2011, Hawkeye_Pierce wrote:

#1

Pessimists are just mis-understood realists.

---------------------------

Fair point...but it was only following on from a thread developing on the previous blog.

Puritarian @ 12

Actually it was Prof. Steven Hawking who stated that he thought we were like computers that shutdown for a final time and never rebooted.

As it happens, this blogger was bought up in the Church of England and I like it because it is benign and very flexible.

It seems to bring great comfort to people in times of trouble, particularly bereavement.

It may well all be one big fairy tale but does that really matter as long as people can take it or leave it?

@11 This subject is covered in great detail all over the internet.

My belief is that the Israelis are a cult backed by enormously powerful financial and media interests of the sort that unwittingly caused tragedies like wars and the Holocaust through their financial jiggery-pokery over in New York in 1929 and more recently in 2008.

No other race or other group of people except the Jews could hope to set up a racial supremacist fascist state today without being attacked and overthrown by the likes of the CIA and NATO and the many Friends of Israel in the BBC and at Westminster.

It seems that the unfortunate Israelis have been drawn to the Middle East by a myth which could end in their neighbours finishing the dreadful job Hitler started. Do not waste your time trying to save them. They actively resent being told they are in mortal danger and any attempt to argue with them is met with the most vehement resistance.

@14 Steven Hawking is a geek and he doesn`t speak for this non-believer.

I am a confirmed but lapsed member of the C of E,but the RC`s have retaken England and turned the EU into the New Holy Roman Empire.

People can`t "take or leave" fantasy like the X-Files and the New Testament when it`s "sold" to them by powerful and authoritative institutions as the BBC and the Churches.

while we are turning street lights off to save money china is building factories that look like this

https://www.chinasmack.com/2011/pictures/harbin-pharmaceuticals-plant-looks-like-european-palace.html

the reason why the west cannot grow out of the crisis is because of the fx bombs of china being dropped on them. its still 10 yuan = £1. how many palaces do they want? How many are we going to wealth transfer to them?

without a mercantislist policy of our own to combat the naked chinese aggression our poverty will increase with a future of crisis merging into crisis.

So now we are well and truly diverted with rhubarb about religion and Israel dear old Red Ed can quietly become the new Blair can he?

Never give a nation of suckers an even break?

It must feel like taking candy from a baby!!!

Puritarian @ 15

The Israelis have nuclear weapons and soon, so will the Iranian theocratic dictatorship.

Then things will get interesting in a very terminal way, as at least one side believes that the other must be destroyed.

There may be a nuclear exchange.

Given the number of nuclear weapons on the planet, it is a minor miracle that there has not been an exchange so far, although the politicians who have an inside track on these things say that India and Pakistan came very, very close to it in the 1990's.

Unfortunately, these things cannot be uninvented and even if they could, human-unkind would find another way.

As humans, our moral and spiritual development lags way, way behind our grasp of technology.

Maybe it could be helpful to think of religion as a kind of insurance policy - you probably won't need it but just in case ...

THE MANY LETTERS OF 'DAWKIN'S LAW'

I think it is time to take a look at Dawkin's early life. We may not find what makes him SOOO in need of defeating mythology, but we just might find out WHY HE NEEDS SO MANY LETTERS AFTER HIS NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poignantly, I suspect 'Dawkin's syndrome' is well described in the very mythology he despises - a link there maybe?

AN OPTIMIST IS A PESSIMIST WHO PERSEVERES (#1)

Nuff sed

The gruesomely fascinating thing about politicians such as Cameron and Miliband, is the mental gymnastics they have to perform to try and keep the whole shebang together.

For example, Cameron has to pretend that the Conservatives are not in hock to property developers, no sir, no way!

Similarly, Milband has to pretend that he is somehow independent of the very people who put him in place, i.e. Trade Union barons.

One hopes that the public sees through it all.

NUFF SED (#3)

Sadly, Dawkins is the 'other pole' of extremism. We need neutral wisdom not bigotry.

@19 So our banker is religious fantasy that actively teaches us about the glories of life after death and to be suspicious of other groups whom our unelected religious leaders are free to define as infidels and a threat to our future existence John?

That should guarantee world peace for ever!

Crikey! If only I had thought of that!

John. Google the phrase "Victoria Climbie" so you can get a taste of what the BBC`s multi-faith multicultural paradise can offer little girls from Africa.

Doesn`t it make you proud?

@17 Jaunty. We could stop trading with the Chinese.

Most of our problems result from living in a world run as a single global financial entity where folk like Soros and Jim Rogers can break our central bank from an office in New York or Singapore.

Spoil their financial games by kicking the City of London out before they have every one of our assets lodged off shore and in foreign hands.

We need to cut our population to a point where we can feed ourselves and do an Iceland regarding our fraudulently imposed debts.

I SUGGEST THAT ONLY 'WWII INDIGENES' CAN REALLY UNDERSTAND 'MAKE DO AND MEND'.

Both the EU adventure and the Globalism aberration (especially money) are close to demonstrating inherent, self-evident, dysfunction.

I don't know how many of us there are left, but we may well be the only ones with the right mind-set to avoid mayhem. Sadly, we appear deeply uncool to the likes of Dave and Ed, so our putative wisdom will die with us - probably when society breaks down.

THE MANY LETTERS OF 'DAWKIN'S LAW' (another try at #23)

I think it is time to take a look at Dawkin's motivation. We may not find what makes him SOOO keen to defeat mythology, but we just might find out WHY HE HAS SO MANY LETTERS AFTER HIS NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poignantly, I suspect 'Dawkin's xxxxxxxx' is well described in the very mythology he opposes - a link there maybe?

'21. At 17:14 13th Sep 2011, barriesingleton wrote:
AN OPTIMIST IS A PESSIMIST WHO PERSEVERES (#1)

Not sure, but even this noble breed may eventually have their limits.

So far, so good. Well, 'interesting'. We'll see.

10. Agree totally.

However, I'd claim that the belief in the so-called "Free Market" and the Magic of the Market" & "the Hidden Hand" that Adam Smith espoused are in themselves pretty close to religious beliefs - indeed if you listen to mid western shock jock AM radio you'd soon realise that borne again, fundamentalist christians claim that the free market price mechanism is something that god actively provides and that through prayer they can influence the way the market operates.

What gets me about economics today is the way that political ideology from the libertarian freemarket thinktanks bankrolled by the finance industry is seemingly hardwired into the way economists analyse and forecast.

This has consequences - there was a massive concensus behind the coalition's austerity deficit reduction plan - from the IMF through the OECD, OBR and the vast majority of private and educational institutions, they all endorsed the plan, forecast growth, millions of new jobs, investment of £600 Bn in UK industry, exports up a third and the private sector replacing the cuts in public spending.

Now a few short months later and they are all having to revise their forecasts heavily downwards for the third time in 18 months, with many now calling for emergency growth measures to prevent the UK going into a deep recession.

Religion was always politics by other means in the era of absolute monarchy - it seems to me that today there is a case to answer that behind much of the so-called objective social science of economics there is actually a strong political influence - and behind the political influence there is a strong vein of religious belief that is rooted in christian fundamentalism of the US political Right.

We do see fundamentalists opposed to theortical physics, but we all give a belly laugh at creationism - I just wish we applied the same scepticism to the social sciences as we do to the natural ones and questioned the motives of those who march to a politically - and I would argue untimately to a religiously - motivated belief structure rather than to a scientific methodology.

A leading prophet of the NeoCon belief system was a man called Hayek who wrote a book arguing that it was essential to constrain the state's role in society, or it would turn all of us into serfs. "The Road to Serfdom" is THE key text which drives libertarian thought and justifies deregulation, reductions in public services and redistribution of wealth via taxation, yet with "economic cleansing" in our inner cities, people abouot to be forced%

continued

A leading prophet of the NeoCon belief system was a man called Hayek who wrote a book arguing that it was essential to constrain the state's role in society, or it would turn all of us into serfs. "The Road to Serfdom" is THE key text which drives libertarian thought and justifies deregulation, reductions in public services and redistribution of wealth via taxation, yet with "economic cleansing" in our inner cities, people about to be forced to take any job at any wage, I'd say there are more firmly on the road to serfdom since institutionalised salvery was a fact of dailiy life.

We need to apply the same rigorous approach to our assessment of social sciences as we do to the natural ones and question the integrity of those who lay claim to applying scientific methods when they really tryting to impose their religious and/or political beliefs on the rest of us.

OK?

@29 Very good as ever Richard. My own feeling is that religion is filling the gap left by the fantasy of democracy as party politics proves a fraud and people lose what little faith they ever had in representative democracy.

As you say religion always was a form of politics and,like tribalism, remains the only political card game in towns across the third world.

Only half-wits like the BBC`s beloved Americans (and their puppets at Westminster) could seriously imagine installing our sort of democracy in places like Iraq or Egypt or Libya or Afghanistan.Let`s try it here first,I say!

Finance is the new medium for politics. Standard and Poors decide what Cameron and Miliband will be saying about the fantasy "British economic outlook" in future, while our party political membership cards might as well go on the fire in January for all the use they are!

WHEN YOU HAVE WOMEN ON RADIO DENYING MOTHERING, ALL ELSE PALES (#30)

If I understood it Richard, I am sure you are making sense. But the global post industrial banana super-state, just has to implode if future 'big people' are all the product of mechanised rearing. (Big people are not adults.)

MATURITY of the individual, especially in the psychological environment we now have, is PROBABLY IMPOSSIBLE. And since the infant programmes its brain in terms of this mad world, madness must increase. When everyone is demon-driven, from a Cortisol soaked infancy, we get a world of Daves, Dubyas and Tonys - a global gang, smashing and robbing the oil-malls of the world.

I'll get me pills.

Goodness me, the zealot Dawkins is merely the obverse of the relgious extremist; both sides have no tolerance at all for anything other than their own explanation of the "condition humaine"; but I still suspect that Dawkins doth protest too much; somewhere in his home, probably in the cellar, will be an altar to our Lady of Guadeloupe, hedging his bets comme Pascal.

China's industrial revolution will be nothing like as catastrophic for UK as UK's was for China; don't see the People's Republic actively attempting to undermine the UK's economy by flooding the streets with opium.

Education is a wonderful thing and helps people keep things in balance; Britain's role in undermining the democratically elected Iranian government and aiding US to replace it with Pahlevi is why still today the Iranians have a deep mistrust of the Brits; that and Britain's imperialistic claims on her oil.

Israel is backed by US, despite the brutal arrogance, despite the walls, despite the ghettoisation of Gaza, because of a balance of power protecting resources of oil; An Israeli state with nuclear weapons, backed by US, keepingthe oil fields of the Gulf safe.

By the pricking of my thumbs, some cartoon called Miliband comes; how Labour and the union movement are stuck in the mud of stasis via vested interest.

Take to the barricades for the squeezed middle? I should coco.

"Allons enfants du milieu presse"; not quite got the same ring to it

@32 And don`t forget the coat off your back as well Barrie!

I totally agree with that post. We leave little children in the hands of mad people and alcoholics and savages in the bizarre belief that their own mothers "must" work "to help with the finances" and build some SELF RESPECT"!!

Self respect from flipping burgers on the minimum wage while they don`t have time or energy for the most important job in any sane society!!!!

But what`s the point? The censor probably listens to Woman`s Hour!If only I could "disappear" the very memory of the BBC what a wonderful world it would be!

Anyone know what 'plan B' is for EU when the Euro crashes?

I know this is advanced stuff & the Eurocrats in Brussels will not have got this far yet with their strategic planning.

Just wondering - as I've got rid of all my Euros as the notes will not make very good fire-lighters.

Someone had better consider whether - all Eurozone might have to adopt the new German Mark or the US $ - or even the Chinese what do you call it - Yikes!

https://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=8334

EDUCATION IS NOT SCHOOLING - SCHOOLING IS INSTITUTIONALISING (#33)

Nor is education learning (unless you belong to the cohort who use 'to learn' as a transitive verb. Learning is a natural process in all young animals - it is largely 'osmotic' or self willed. It is WHAT NATURE WOULD HAVE US DO.

We now have GENERATIONS of INSTITUTIONALISING SCHOOLING behind our society. A geometric progression in a downward spiral. We are as institutionalised as battery hens; immature throughout life, and lost if 'set free'.

Now it would seem, the deeply institutionalised mass of 'learners', is being fed an inferior mind-diet and suffering psychological problems, analogous to the wonky knees and cancers of battery hens.

After millions of years of mothering, fathering and learning, we are now rearing and schooling - all too often in tandem. IT IS NOT WHAT NATURE WOULD DO. Cleverness has won out over wisdom - it will end in tears.

Say NO to indoctrination

As an atheist and a firm ‘believer’ in Richard Dawkins, I still have concerns about what the Pope described as ‘the rise of aggressive secularism’ in UK. During my lifetime there has been a loss of respect for all those institutions and people that we once believed in and ‘looked up to’ (religion, royalty, police, school teachers, statesmen) with no cornerstones or icons to replace them.

This situation is due mainly to mass public awareness through the growth of mass media, and could be dismissed as ‘ignorance was once bliss’. But remove the religious constraints (threats) such as a belief in an afterlife and what sanctions remain against us all dedicating our brief mortality to a once-only life of greed, indulgence and selfishness – other than our conscience, which evil folk don’t have.

Also, religious belief has for centuries been the prime inspiration for most of the world’s art, music and architecture, so what is there to replace this wellspring? A few decades ago religious inspiration might have been replaced by patriotism and love of one’s country and heritage, but these have since been disparaged and replaced by the false gods of equality, celebrity and multiculturalism.

Above all, I feel guilt towards my descendants that this degeneration has been allowed to flourish ‘on my watch.’ All I have to offer in defence is an audit trail of my blogs here and elsewhere and my autobiography, forecasting this social decline and railing against all those responsible for it.

My new credo: Back to Mother Nature; turn my back on Big 3 power politics and - vote Radical

RESPECT IS NOT DEFERENCE- DEFERENCE IS "I KNOW MY PLACE".(#33 AND 34).

People have come to be subject to the tyranny of objects, rather than the tyranny of rulers, religious extremists, even capitalist exploitation.

I'm optimistic - once the Euro starts to slide the currency spivs & speculators will make a real killing & huge sums of money betting the Euro currency out of existence.

How about pushing half a trillion Euros into the coffers of the ECB fellow taxpayers - in a desparate & vain attempt to save the Euro!

We are, after all, 'Europeans' & all in this together

https://bbc.kongjiang.org/www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2011/09/august-global-temperature-upda.shtml

It would appear that one of the very latest growing eco-scams is the wood chipping of good quality UK produced timber ( full mature trees ) capable of being sawn into several long thick planks that could last for years. Its fair enough chipping the offcuts after the useful timber has been sawn, but chipping the whole tree is environmental vandalism. Its not even going for usefull chip-board, the main driver of their environmentally false market is local authority schools burning the wood chips as biomass fuel and gaining green brownie points from theoretical reductions in carbon emissions.

adam curtis on hayek

https://bbc.kongjiang.org/www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/09/the_curse_of_tina.html


i remember a time 3 years ago when no one would talk about hayek. now everyone is.

given theology takes many years study and an initiation into its real meaning suddenly everyone is an expert after 20 minutes reading. most scientific.

most probably don't even know what the difference is between metaphysics and theology and why both are necessary . Parmenedies explained thousands of years ago what happened to people who decided there is no such thing as the good. They become nihilist relativists for whom suicide is the logical progression 'because everything is meaningless'.

one wonders at the self agrandisment of such people. Even the BBC occupies the head of religious broadcasting with agnostics etc.

So people with no formal study of theology pontificate to others their pet bias. In the medical world such people with no understanding of medicine are called quacks.

so we have quacks. why does the bbc give them airtime? would they consider anyone else expert on the same basis of manifest ignorance?

@9 Absolutely agree. Yes to inspiration, no to indoctrination. And certainly NO to institutionalisation "How DARE you have a mind of your own boy - what do you think education is all about?"

It's too easy to have mythology in science too. The Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics was almost a theology - because it claimed "completeness" rather like the so-called "Efficient Market Hypothesis".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_Cat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

Education eliminates individuality and promotes the dull,diligent and unimaginative types with retentive memories whom needy teachers and tutors really prefer.

And much worse it`s a training in failure and lowered aspirations for all but a select few teacher`s pets and conformists and industrial torture to little limbs and minds that yearn to roam free!

My poor mother was mad and I had an almost absentee Dad,so I was a truant and received my education wherever it lay around me in a community indifferent to and indulgent of my wayward ways.Am I any the worse? No!I had the brains to avoid education.

Mad Jews from Eastern Europe and the WEA taught me socialism and to think for myself and they prepared me for the 2008 crisis of capitalism too.

We don`t need jobs for one parent families.There are several billion effectively unemployed people across the world as things are.

We need a sense of worth and MEANING in our lives and to do work that we enjoy because it is of social value and gives us esteem in our "community".

Look at all the good boys and girls at Westminster and the BBC.

Just by chance did they rise to be "something " on their merits? NO!

They are the sons and daughters of pushy parents who gave them good "educations".

What did that mean? They BOUGHT them advantages and a network of Bullingdonesque cronies.Nothing to do with them being talented,more a case of "not what you know but WHO you know".

And a life in a boarding school teaches you how to survive by toadying and grovelling and obeying orders,just like our politicians do!But can a product of such an environment inspire and lead others who have no need to fear him?

I accuse NN and Question Time and"the News" of swamping us with too many issues at one time and not covering them in enough depth. It`s disinformation dressed up as information.

Mr Dawkins should re-direct his analytical skills to the 'official' version of events of 9/11 rather than applying his them to issues which will not sucumb to them.

If he wants to de-bunk religion he should start with de-bunking 9/11, religion would follow shortly thereafter.

Dont suppose he will take my advice though.

#3 jauntycyclist wrote:

"i remember a time 3 years ago when no one would talk about hayek. now everyone is."

Now you know that's just not true jc!

Several people (jj, statist, tabblenabble01/02 etc) have explained to you many times, quite clearly over the last few years, that Hayek was simply an anarchist of the Austrian School kind (cf von Mises). He was a Trotskyite free-market fundamentalist, he was also a disciple of the Chicago School.

We all really know what the link between all of these schools are. Don't we?

And as some have pointed out above, economics is not a science...it's just a busted flush.

:p Denham is failing miserably with Jeremy tonight! Brilliant stuff :o)
Worrying debate with Smith et al too......whatever happens, it isn't going to be good tomorrow.

@44 Jaunty "Even the BBC occupies the head of religious broadcasting with agnostics.........." But I can think of at least one atheist bishop in my lifetime.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm

My favourite theologian is Terry Pratchett's Death - here in a conversation with his granddaughter Susan:

"....HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME... SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY."
— Terry Pratchett (Hogfather)

Jeremy's interview with Richard Dawkins was the best :) Let's face it, we should be told the truth and not given fairy tales, even if they don't sound as good.

Jeremy Paxman referred to these "stupid people",I think he meant those who are religious believers? Maybe he should engage with these "stupid people",some of whom are distinguished academics?
Alternatively engage with those who live lives founded on a vibrant faith.Go on I dare you!!!

While I understand what Dawkins is trying to do I don't think that the written word is as good at inspiring the young in regard to science as visual demonstration. Take for example trying to explain the universe, planets, stars and galaxies in writing versus going to a planetarium. In regards to the evolution of humans there is always the Fatboy Slim video Right Here Right Now, and Courage Wolf on evolution which caption reads "4 billion years of evolution. Not one failure. Start acting like it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alSY62eKPCo&ob=av2n

https://www.quickmeme.com/meme/Doz/

Even quantum mechanics can be made beautiful and inspiring, though not less mind bending-

https://www.personal.psu.edu/mmt163/E%20SC%20497E_files/Quantum_Corral.htm

POOR DAWKINS - TRAPPED IN 'THE WESTERN ORTHODOX' CHURCH OF SCIENCE.

Anyone who is versed in the Electric Universe paradigm, which combines plasma, cosmology, legend and myth, would have seen poor Richard shoot himself in both feet, with his illustrations of 'manifestly untrue' myths. What can he know of Saturn's primary illumination, and electro-dynamic mayhem (gods fighting) in man's ancient skies?

Poor man - what a sterile life - what a narrow vision.

In passing, what is the deal for getting on major shows when you have a book out?

Cui bono?

What has Israel ever done for peace (Satire)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc1kDE4jeHc&feature=player_embedded#!

How many of you are avoiding the heir to Blair Red Ed at the TUC crisis out of embarrassment because you still buy into the creation myth that our political parties were created and sustained in order to service majority grass roots needs and desires?

It`s all a con! Politics is about denying you a voice and dis-empowering you. Education is mainly about defining you as a loser unless your Dad is rich or cunning.Religion is the opium of the masses.Economics is a religion that can only predict the future after it`s happened.

Society functions to serve the powerful.That`s the only social science you need to know.

If you don`t believe that just consider what would have happened in our global society if the UK or Germany or China had caused the 1929 and 2008 crises of capitalism?

The USA would have been suing us and screaming blue murder about it and their media would never forget it.Our politicians would be on trial in international criminal courts and we would be global pariahs.

Whereas Obama and Hilary Clinton carry on brazenly like the second coming of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary and the USA carries on policing the globe and bombing anyone who the CIA reckons is a homicidal tyrant or organised criminal and LECTURING US ABOUT CORRUPTION!

Did you get that? The USA is behaving as though crime corruption and mass murder are things it is uniquely qualified to police and stamp out as our moral and ethical moral policeman! And no one is disputing their right,if they know what is good for them!

The global society functions to serve the most powerful nations within it.And they can be as indebted and behave as badly as they like!

Hhhhmmm perhaps just bringing our children up with their parents would be a start, let alone their spiritual side...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8760558/Cycle-of-compulsive-consumerism-leaves-British-family-life-in-crisis-Unicef-study-finds.html

51

people invent a version of theology without any reference to real theology and then say 'how stupid'. yes it is stupid. and lazy. and unscientific.

i have yet to find an atheist, who think they are more clever than everyone, demonstrate to me where the divine is defined by an image. they probably don't even understand the question.

this is why to understand the language of theology you need to be initiated into it and become qualified.

parables have an external superficial meaning and an internal deeper one. just because these 'clever' people are too blockheaded and stonehearted not to understand the inner meanings and so disregard them is more a reflection on them and their inability to understand a technology that is above their level of comprehension.

the science of things and the science of the soul are not incompatible as some 'believe' but are harmonised as one in a real human being who is the bridge between all the worlds. I can understand why some want to become priests of a new material religion and put up barbed wire around a camp and so people will worship them and anyone who crosses the wire is attacked.

the bbc has demonstrated in its religious programming it has no idea what it is doing and as such is not a useful platform in the discussion. They get experts to do science programmes, cookery programmes, antique programmes but in religious broadcasting they get people who are not only unqualified but even oppose the very idea of it. Why the inconsistency? That isn't rational. That isn't scientific nor best practise.

There is a big difference between being taught by someone who does boxing as a practise than someone who has 'read some books about it' but has never been in the ring.

53

it would just seem like gobbledook to them. unless one has a moral platform then theology will just seem like fantasy. People without a living moral platform are blocked from understanding anything of the mysteries. Like the impure were blocked from entering the temples. They really are not worthy because they do not seek or understand the purity qualification and regard anything good as an 'oppression'.

material science and soul science are not incompatible. Each subject is opened by its highest term. the highest term in material science is matter. In soul science its the divine.

if one accepts the vedas, and there is no reason not to, then their time line is divided into 4 . We are currently in kali yuga or the age of ignorance/argumentation and man will become increasingly ignorant and argumentative until the next age arrives. Man is so fallen that the purity qualification is seen as hateful and 'impossible' and 'ridiculous' and people would rather do anything but climb that mountain.

49

a bit of historical revisionism there.

i don't think jj has 'explained' anything to anyone ever in a way so anyone understood it.

#58 lizzy

On the subject of consumerism.

Did you notice the hordes of consumers that surged into the new Westfield Olympic shopping centre in East London yesterday?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2037098/Westfield-Stratford-City-opening-Shopping-centre-postcode.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

What did you notice about these consumers lizzy?

#58 re lizzy's link on UNICEF report on the miserable lives of UK children

The report stated...

"The report by Unicef, the UN children's agency, warns that materialism has come to dominate family life in Britain as parents "pointlessly" amass goods for their children to compensate for their long working hours.
While parents said they felt compelled into buying more, the children themselves said spending time with their families made them happier."

The anarchists will do what ever they can to break up the family unit as it's good for business and profits. Mum and dad sitting at home with the kids are,of course, not out spending money (that they mostly don't have anyway - debt spiral).

On another point, the church and the Arch Bishop of Canterbury seem very quiet these days. Oh, hang on minute, Rowan's busy arranging a meeting with Mugabe to see if he can have his church's assets back!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8748816/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-to-meet-Robert-Mugabe-in-Zimbabwe.html

#29 / 30 Richard B

We are agreed then that Economics is just politics disguised as a pseudo science.

It is clear that aggregate global economic growth is peaking out and will likely decline - see link on #10 showing role of energy & resources on aggregate economic productivity.

Given this limiting constraint, then why has / is debt growth continually peddled by economists and policy makers, if not to ensnare a generation in debt peonage?

Here's Michael Hudson, on "The New Road to Serfdom", correctly predicting the economic crisis back in 2006:

https://michael-hudson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/RoadToSerfdom.pdf

Revealed: secret government plans to win back women
https://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/13/government-plan-win-back-women

"The document reveals a growing anxiety at the heart of government that the coalition is failing to deliver on its promise to be the "most family-friendly government ever" and a worry that its support among women is particularly low."

Anyone else spot the anomaly?

Problem: Family friendly = business unfriendly (it really is a conundrum)

They really are scraping the barrel for ideas. Maybe poster boy Dave should just offer every woman in the country a free make-over in the run up to the next election?

BRAVE NEW WORLD (#58)

In 1974, RD Laing wrote: “A child born today in the United Kingdom stands a ten times greater chance of being admitted to a mental hospital than to a university ... This can be taken as an indication that we are driving our children mad more effectively than we are genuinely educating them. Perhaps it is our way of educating them that is driving them mad.”

One proud boast of this country, is that all children are 'put through' school (note the sausage machine terminology). For many generations (even as mothering was being destroyed and fathering emasculated) ALL children were drafted into the INSTITUTION of school (a constantly mutating, political toy) to be constrained into Mammonry OR CONFIRMED IN THEIR MISERY.

Those who (seem to) 'do well' at school (internalising their madness) become politicians and leaders WITH AN UNTHINKING, ABSOLUTE BELIEF IN THAT INTITUTION AS A GIVEN 'GOOD'. Gove is a terrifying example. Westminster is full of them - they have no idea of the damage that is done.

Weep England.

Eurozone

I can not see the Eurozone letting Greece go for these reasons.

1. It has been reported that Eurozone members can not choose to leave the Euro, but they can be thrown out.
2. It is not Greece that has the problem , it is the producer countries which lent Greece the money which really have the problem. Greece and the others are just fire breaks.
3. Given the strategic location of Greece , the EU foreign and security policy makers will not want to give it up.
4. During hard times, having some distressed economies keeping the Euro value artificially low has some benefits, if the pitfalls can be constrained.

So , unless the Greek politicians grow some and demand that they exit the Euro , default on external debt and print their domestic debt away, I suggest Greece will stay imprisoned within the Eurozone in the Euro special needs club ( effectively run by the ECB and the commission).

Ed at the TUC.

With the true effects of devolution growing , the English Labour party are going to have to portray themselves as a less militant political force.

UN Palestinian membership

I believe the UK abstained when the general assembly voted to recognize Israel, so I suggest we (UK) should do the same in respect of the Palestinian vote. As when the problems start coming in to the UNSC , the UK should have a balanced recent record on the whole matter.
We will of course get blamed by all sides if we do or don't , but that's part of the course.

Mr Dawkins interview

As a confused agnostic myself, I admire , but disagree with his absolutism.

On the broader points ,I was not totally convinced , some religious texts have good moral lessons (directly or indirectly implied) in there stories. I agree some do not, but still, some do.
We are not talking about the effects on one generation here , we are talking of the knock on effects over many future generations. How will children be taught the moral norms of our culture ?
Who will decide what our moral code should be ?

As for science being the new deity , science has been misrepresented and misused before, so I can not agree with his absolutism here either.

Still , each to their own.

#61 jc

"a bit of historical revisionism there.

i don't think jj has 'explained' anything to anyone ever in a way so anyone understood it."


Sorry jc, but I beg to differ.

They quite adequately explained that Hayek was just another free-market fundamentalist, an an-statist, an anarchist (deregulator). An ardent libertarian.

Classical economics was subverted by the disciples of Austrian/Chicago Schools (Milton Friedman must get a special mention here). This was coincident with the mass emmigrations from Europe to New York and London in the earlier half of the last century.

#64 Hawkeye


What an apposite quote at the start of Hudson's presentation...


"Even men who were engaged in organizing debt-serf cultivation and debt-serf industrialism in the American cotton districts, in the old rubber plantations, and in
the factories of India, China, and South Italy, appeared as generous supporters
of and subscribers to the sacred cause of individual liberty."

— H. G. Wells, The Shape of Things to Come

Keynes described an economic theory that had applications to an industrial economy. The UK now has no such economy, we just have a load of spivs selling each other debt financed houses, home improvements, fraudulent pensions and useless insurance policies. You cannot successfully debt finance a debt based ponzi scheme.

The entire system is one giant ponzi scheme with (now) obviously corrupt media cheerleaders, market manipulation of everything from precious metals through to HFT, with ever more debt required to plug ever more holes.

Last month it was the US debt ceiling, the month before Greek and Italian debt, today it's Greece again and the French banks. The system cannot be made well. The only thing left is dissembling and can kicking - these things will be done. The only possible outcome is implosion.

Whose fault is all of this? Sure it is the ponzi ring masters. But how did they get into place? Who chose to believe their lies? Who abandoned their roles as responsible human beings and became mere consumers?

"JUSTICE WITH TRUTH?" (South Yorkshire Police credo)

If you value integrity, watch and weep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lILklLNzRfQ

Jaunty "given theology takes many years study and an initiation into its real meaning " and other remarks is a similar vein.

The problem is that if religion is so difficult to understand and appreciate, then "normal" people have two choices: either to ignore it as irrelevant to their lives, or to do as they are told, as in the RC/High Anglican/Wahhabi way.

If ordinary people are to "do as they are told", then there is a problem in that the major religions of the world believe in different "truths", some at least of which are incompatible. So unless you accept that religion is a subset of culture, and not "true" in any absolute sense, you have a problem.

Here in the West, we have many people who claim to espouse Christianity, but ignore any of Christ's teaching which don't suit them. Yet they also claim that the Bible is literally true, (despite obvious inconsistencies) rather than written by flawed and fallible human beings. That supports your thesis of course, because academic theologians aren't so stupid, at least, not the ones I've encountered.

Personally, I'm non-believer and lapsed Quaker with a theological qualification ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associate_of_King%27s_College ). I don't like beliefs being presented as facts, and I don't like obsession with "interpretation" of dubious small print when if anything's important at all, it's the spirit rather than the letter.

Humans have a deep psychological need which religions in theory aim to satisfy. However, big organised religions are perverted as means of gaining power and exercising control. They are not fit for purpose. Nor are secular "religions" based on alleged absolute truths like Marxism. Dawkins may not be a Marxist, but I would put him broadly in that camp.

I have clung to one maxim from my Quaker days, which has never let me down when I've had the courage to apply it: "look for the light within". However, at times that light can make one feel rather small, and it's easier to revel in the dark cloak of one's own imagined righteousness. :-)

CHRISTIANITY WAS FOUNDED BY GOD'S SON - ERGO ALL OTHER RELIGIONS ARE FALSE.

Short of God, PERSONALLY, turning up in tri-partite glory, and superseding mono-partite Christianity, the trump 'card' has been played.

Eat Crow suckers.

Today's Matt Cartoon in The Telegraph says it all:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/

OK - some cracking contributions on the Dawkins debate - thanks for your comments on my witterings (may god forgive me... if he exists that is - if you do, sorry boss.. fingers crossed..)

Right - we should all be free to believe in any supernatural fantasy we want to - fairies down the garden, aliens, angels or guys with white beards in the clouds - lay lines, crystals, stone circles, homeopathy or even economics.

What we want is to end the attempt by organised fantasists (better known as "religions") to impose their ideas on the rest of us. I find it interesting that the US Constitution specifically requires the State to be non-aligned to any religion, whilst the great unwritten British Constitution hardwires the CoE into society - this is simply unacceptable and should be changed.

The idea of having a State religion with the Monarch as its head is also deeply offensive and should be ended.

I am entirely in favour of minorities being heard and mechanisms put in place to ensure this happens, but why this should be on the basis of their religion rather than the culture or point of origin seems also to be offensive.

I'd line up to defend any place of worship against anyone seeking to deny organised fantasists their right to believe in what they choose to believe in and engage in rituals to express this, but it's time for humanity to move on from superstition and fear and start facing up to the reality of life, our environment and how we can make common cause with the rest of our species and the other ones were share this small planet with in all of our interests and those of our children & their decendants.

As long as we allow organised fantasists to impose organised delusion (usually known as "religious education") on our children, the cycle of bigotry and superstition will continue.

Thank you Mr. Dawkins for holding torch for knowledge over fanatasy & delusion.

typical bbc treatment of religion.

things are judged by their purpose. By the talk JP who confuses metaphysics and religion and myth as if they were one and the same has no idea of the ontology nor the structure nor the context of any of them?

climate change religion is as much of religion bbc understands?

72

what most people call religion is corporate materialism designed to obtain material goods. Metaphysics is universal and religion is time conditional [to a historical context]. If you understand the metaphysics then you don't get trapped in the time conditional forms.

divinity is not difficult in the sense of complex mathematics. it is difficult because it demands something from you before you can appreciate it which is the purity platform. each religion has one be it the 10 commandments of the 4 regulative principles of the vedas etc. without the purity platform the soul is blind and deaf to anything above the level of the material and denies even the possibility of there being any other kind of knowledge. The soul remains like a mirror unpolished.

in the modern context the idea someone should not covet their neighbours wife/job/ox whatever is portrayed in the many films and soaps of the media as fantasy. 1 xtra plays music that praises coveting and other rule breaking. Rule breaking is in effect state sponsored and praised and glorified in society as a whole and 'within the rules'.

This platform which is the prerequisite cannot be enforced and is for those who have an inner policeman.

68

we went through this last time. funny how i haven't had to have multiple ids after being banned x amount of times.

i think its good at least hayekism is being debated.

Re Dawkins (tabblenabble01)

Dawkins is, I suggest, nobly motivated in his challenge to endemic irrationality in our culture, but wrong to endorse atheism. The problem is that cognitive ability is Gaussian distributed, and some people just can't grasp some things, so are trapped in thinking like children. It is abusive and cruel to demand they behave otherwise as it is the way they are programmed. Dawkins should know that, but he clearly doesn't.

Most people who talk about 'God' don't think of this as a supernatural entity. I'd like to suggest that those who are committed atheists might change their arrogant disposition if they substituted 'omniscience' for God, as the reality is that human knowledge is an un-ending quest which should bring home to people like Richard Dawkins how cognitively fallible/limited we all are. That's the real function that God serves, i.e. to protect us against narcissism. In the case of Dawkins, this has dismally failed.

OH GOD I'M A NARCISSIST! (#79)

You will have my decline on your conscience MuseV.

Your last sentence, re poor Prof Dawkins, is priceless. Bravo!

Narcissist?

I don't even like flowers, they give me hayfever.

#80 barrie

Alas, not my words barrie, but tabblenabble's, posted when Dawkins last appeared on NN.

It starts with light praise followed by mild disdain, proceeding onto an elegant, oppositional/logical and original observation...finally ending with a sting in the tail.

Superb!

I just thought it was worth reposting.