How should incompetent teachers be handled?

In the past, failed teachers were promoted and turned into "school inspectors". Later they were moved to Ofsted.

There's no reason to change the practice. Ofsted, as we all know, is ineffectual and a waste of time and space. Leave them there to graze.

One hopes the gov will make no cuts in Ofsted as its denizens might find their way back to schools as teachers.

Has anyone bothered to factor in the number of people who leave the profession?

It's not an easy job and most of those who struggle with the sort of issues that lead to being ultimately viewed as 'incompetent' know that there are problems, are unhappy and often leave voluntarily.

I am more concerned about poor leadership and management within education. It is even harder to address incompetence in headteachers/principals and senior leadership, and if left unchecked will drag an entire institution down.

Teachers can be sacked and are often hounded out of their jobs, so striking them off the register is not the only way to deal with incompetent teachers.

Incompetent teachers include incompetent HEAD TEACHERS who have either been unable to motivate their team or have lacked the bottle to dismiss really useless teachers. Of course the system of teacher appraisals is badly flawed and desperately needs to be reformed and properly implemented over a set period during which time there is recourse to impartial and confidential adjudication. It should never be forgotten that personality clashes have a significant bearing on teacher performance and mental welfare.

Assuming the data in the report are true, then this is a serious problem.

We desperately need good teachers who are operating well within their competency and on top of their subjects, so that they can properly educate and inspire young people.

It partly explains why educational achievement in the core academic subjects is still unsatisfactory, with Universities and employers complaining about the poor attainment of new entrants.

Teaching must be seen as a key role in society and not a fall back option. Teachers must have high academic qualifications and be taught properly in academic institutions. The respect in society that teachers once had must be restored, but this has to be earned.

Competency in employment can only be assured by the kind of processes we have in the NHS - monitoring of continuous professional development and regular, formal re-validation managed by independent professional bodies.

Colleagues must not brush problems under carpet and senior staff must not play 'pass the parcel' as is claimed is happening. Teaching is too important for the 'no blame' culture to allow such a situation to continue.

In reality, staff, parents and pupils all know who the weak teachers are, so this will not be a secret. These individuals have to be identified and re-trained or dismissed if they cannot improve. It just has to be done fairly and objectively.

When I was at school in 1969, within the 40 years of the Panorama review, One teacher was a frightening Alcoholic, who used to drink whisky from a Hip flask in the stock room. Another teacher was also an Alcoholic, and also had personality problems, infact many years later whilst a Police officer in the Midlands I met this man sleeping rough, and drinking cider in a church yard. Another teacher was a lecherous sex pest, but was revered by the school because he was a drama Teacher, and had appeared on TV. All three were poor teachers and should have had the Push. Certain of the English teachers were trendy lefties, who tried to indoctrinate the kids with left wing policies, and gave the kids booze and dope on field studies. Not good...

I would never trust what the unions say as the less members they have the less monies into their coffers and lack of bargaining power.

As in any job, incompetency should be rewarded with sacking. If you are not upto your job you should not be employed.

It sohuld be as simple as that.

In what manner are they being incompetent? First find out. Second, if appropriate, provide additional training to correct the cause. If improvement is not made then 'goodbye.' In any other profession, training and guidance is provided before sacking.

As the government wish to receive comments about saving money, why don't they save money by sacking incompetent teachers istead of moving them around & around untill they themselves realise perhaps they aren't teachers & decide maybe they won't carry on taking lots of money for a job the are not entitled too!!!

What a joke. This speaks volumes about politicians from all parties being incompetent at tacking this problem for the past 40 YEARS. It annoys me that politicians complain about their pay but then we find out the aren't doing what they paid to do anyway. We also need to look at what they do with incompetent doctors because being "struck off" is misleading - it doesn't mean they can't practice medicine again. I bet the figures for dismissing doctors are even less than the ones for teachers during the last 40 years.

I wholeheartedly agree that imcompetant teachers should not be allowed to teach our children. But teaching is a multi- skilled profession and sometimes it is hard to dismiss a collegue who works hard, is reliable, loves children but is unable to deliver and inspire pupils. In a small school it destablises the staff, and even the children suffer. So to solve the problem of how to dismiss an incompetant teacher requires alot of thought and less anger. But it needs to be done. Maybe retraining is the answer?

At 09:54am on 04 Jul 2010, Megan wrote:

"Has anyone bothered to factor in the number of people who leave the profession?"

Megan. You have hit the nail on the head.

I would not make it as a teacher.
My skills lie elsewhere.

If I had been tempted into teaching I would certainly of been incompetent and unhappy.

I would certainly have left the profession hopefully before being branded.

How often has this happened?

Why should teachers be treated any differently than other employees who are quite clearly incompetent. They should be sacked immediately and certainly not allowed to return to this 'profession' ? until they have undergone training and re-examined to check they are at the required standard.

How do you distinguish between "an incompetent teacher" and a victim?

Lets face it, teaching is a tough profession. However, teachers in a lot of respects shape the destiny of our children, so we the tax-payer have a right to expect high teaching standards.

Most professions these days have some form of annual appraisal and staff can be identified for or request additional training. Teachers who under-perform should be given the opportunity to identify further training to make the grade and if not they should be dismissed as unfit for their job.

& why is it that incompetent politicians don't get the boot sooner? Incompetence in the New Labour regime seemed to involve resigning from 'office' or being shifted into a new position.

If incompetence was punished, where would those New Labour people now basking in their memoirs be?

And how do you distinguish between an "incompetent" teacher and one being let down by his/her institution?

If anything, teachers should be in an occupation where it is easy to lose their job if they are incompetent, their incompetence doesn't stop a business making money, but if they teach A-level or GCSE students then that could ruin the students' grades and hence, potentially, their future.

Each Teacher should have an assessor in their class 7 times a year but without

them knowing, they will be assessed that day! The assessor is to be there all

day. And for a different time of the year, 7 times the same assessor is to

check the students work/books/projects etc.If then it is noted that their work

& the students work is below 90% then the Teacher is to go on a refresher

course! Seven months later approx. the Assessor is to be with the Teacher

again, if still no improvement, then its TIME THEY WENT!

If teachers have to have a license to teach, removal of the license will ensure they cannot return to teach, unless they appeal its removal.

Having said all that in my last comment.....I WOULDN'T BE A TEACHER, FOR ALL

THE MONEY IN THE WORLD!!Kids today got no respect!!I think they do a fab

job!!!

Agree with post#2 @ 09:54am on 4 July, 'Megan.

In addition, I would add that many problems have, and are always created in our education system by incompetent education ministers, of all governments.

Labour piled on too much admin on ALL staff in schools while repeatedly re-inventing the wheel with wasteful quango 'initiatives' and schools were judged on the right answers on their returned forms. Yet other Labour ministers built and refurbished hundreds of new schools.

It would be helpful if this Coalition Department for Education, pulled in it's horns and allowed a 'fallow' period of 'rest' by first reducing admin/targets and actually asked Head Teachers, teachers, parents and parent school governors what THEY want for the education of the children THEY are responsible for.

BTW - Michael Gove wants to take 'A' levels back to 'final exams' at the end of two years and phase out the modular system? Our children are grown-up now, so it does not affect us - but with a girl and a boy - I would suggest that the old final exam 'A' level disadvantages boys?

How ironic that schools handle problematic teachers in they same way as problematic pupils.

Passing the buck is always the easiest option, but doesn't actually solve anything.

Any bad teachers should be offered training to overcome any problems they may have,if this does not improve them they should not be allowed to continue teaching.Of course this would never happen as all pulic sector workers,NHS.Teaching,Police etc tend to turn a blind eye to incompetent,lazy or generally poor colleagues.This is real reason that teachers and the unions oppose school tests as it highlights the underperforming schools and hence enderperforming teachers.

Could this by any chance have something to do with the change in State education that was implemented in 1960?

Streaming pupils according to ability must surely have made teaching easier rather than the 'one size fits all' class which is now the norm and which must have led to need for teaching assistants, unheard of years ago.

What's new, local government continually recycles poor staff. It's called redeployment. They are afraid to sack/make staff redundant.

As a teacher, this did make me laugh out loud.

Firstly, on Chris Woodhead's measurements, I may be dangerously close to being incompetent - this from a man who was probably one of the worst HMI of Schools ever and in his personal life had a pretty strange past when it comes to managing pupil behaviour.

Then we have the quite fair process of comparing what happens in other industries to people who are found to be incompetent.

Let's take Banking.

(1) Fred Goodwin, found to be incompetent at running RBS, sent away with enough money in compensation and pension to keep your average school in funds for several years. (2) Andy Hornby, CEO HBOS, bought it to his knees and then 'recycled' as CEO of Boots Alliance, (3) Steven Crawshaw, Bradford and Bingley, destroyed a once competent building society, actually does not seem to have been recycled, but like 'Fred the Shred' has a reportedly £1.8m pension pot tokeep him company whilst suffering the rejection and depression of being unwanted elsewhere, (4) Adam Applegarth, CEO of Northern Rock, also bought to its knees by his incompetence, now employed as an advisor to US private equity firm Apollo - need I say more?

Let's examine teaching.

For the past 6 years teachers have had pay rises below inflation - fact. They are now unlikely to have a pay rise at all for the next two years - fact.

Is it any wonder then that bright graduates choose a career in banking, with its promise of generous golden parachutes for incompetency, over teaching which - like your report - is likely to draw unbalanced criticism and ultimately penury?

Anyone in any other job would if they was incompetent be sacked, so why doesn't it happen in schools and other civil service jobs?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Teaching is a complex occupation, with some classes a teacher may be brilliant and succeed 100%; but with others he/she may struggle and seeem incompetent. It all depends on the 'chemistry and mix ' of the groups. It also depends on the leadership of the school, and what support they do or do not give to teachers dealing with badly behaved pupils ( a lot of the time it's not there; I've seen even very experienced and good teachers struggle wiht some classes!). Let's stop the hysteria and melo-drama, and consider this issue in a proper professional way.
BTW Chris Woodhead's 15,000 bad teachers. If this were true what would happen to the profession if all 15,000 had to leave? You would not get the same number to replace them for sure, class sizes would increase tecahers struggle more....... Perhaps we can start by checking these figures in a proper statistical way rather than base it on pre-conceived prejudices, and see what the real problem actually is.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

There were plenty of incompetent teachers when I was at school (18 years ago) who had been teaching for years and still are. There was one particular teacher who just couldn't control certain pupils which meant the whole class didn't learn. I told my parents and they complained to the school, the outcome? My form tutor taught the same subject so gave me and a couple of my friends extra tuition so we kept up. However I don't fully blame the teacher, I blame the classmates who played to his weakness. I would rather have seen them expelled from school then the teacher loose his job, they had their chance.

As a schoolboy in the 1950's I had a few incompetent teachers. The worst, a teacher of geography, would set us to copy maps or make notes from a textbook whilst he went to sleep in front of us. He would awaken before the last afternoon bell and order us to remain until it rang. He would fly out of the classroom and out of the school faster than the PT master could. The Headmaster was well aware of it but he was allowed to do this year in and year out as he had a PhD and was reckoned as an asset to the staff roll.

Nowadays, society has changed and teaching is arguably the very hardest job to do properly because it is much more than just facing classes or preparing lessons. Deference and discipline are often too poor to allow teachers to succeed. The reasons for a teacher's incompetence often lie with parents and weak Heads.

like the woman mentioned in the article, we had to move our son to a different school because of incompetant staff, 6 months later when Ofstead inspected the first school I contacted them but was told they were not interested in my comments as I had no children at the school - it was another 3 years before the school was finally 'placed into special measures' - and even then the head was allowed to 'retire on medical grounds' rather than be sacked and loose her pension.

In my opinion, Ofstead should contact the parents of every child that has left the school to ask about the circumstances, my son's previous school had 40+ kids leave in one year! (from a total of 260ish)

There must be more who are not fit to be teaching.

It's about time parent's complaints were taken more seriously

They should be treated the same way as any incompetent worker in the private sector...give them their P45 and ask them to clear their desk within the hour.

STOP wasting public money on these people.

Oh, and when the unions get up in arms about it tell them to go soak their heads.

I think a more worthwhile question would be:

"What should be done about parents who do not bring up their children to be anything other than self-centred, inattentive, disruptive, time-wasting, unteachable little cretins?".

It is the conduct of the progeny of such parents that seems to me to be the greatest menace to the eductation of well-behaved and diligent children. The small number of inadequate teachers does not help but the effects are probably less significant.


As far as I can see most of the fathers in much of the country only speak to their sons about football, and the mothers to the daughters about clothes, hair, make-up and gossip TV. How we change this anticulture is not clear to me.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. In the public sector, the unions basically decide whether someone is sacked or not.

As a teacher, I'm aware that some colleagues are better than others. I have seen incompetent teachers, but it's VERY rare. You tend to find that people who aren't competent don't like it and therefore leave within 1-3 years of joining the profession.

The PGCE year is difficult and has a very high drop out rate, thus weeding out those who are willing to try.

The NQT year (first year of teaching) also supports and trains and you have to pass this in a school setting. I've seen people who didn't pass this as well.

By the time you're fully qualified, you have a VERY good idea of what is expected of you professionally and personally within the profession.

Anyone deemed incompetent is observed and given feedback. That's very common.

Teaching is TOUGH and anyone who says it's not has no idea. I think the current system of trying to support incompetent teachers and keep them in the profession is good. If they're that bad, the end up quitting anyway.

Incompetent teachers teachers should be handled in the same way as:-
Incompetent politicians, incompetent journalists and incompetent editors, incompetent lawyers, incompetent doctors, incompetent footballers ............

First off all you have to define what makes a competent teacher, you can then have something to judge competence against to deicide if a teacher is incompetent.

One thing is for sure league tables should have nothing to do with it

As a head teacher who has taken a teacher down competency recently...you are faced with the unions who immediately advise the teacher to go sick on a stress related illness. At this stage the competency procedure is placed on hold until their return. A teacher can then go 'sick' on full pay for up to 6 months before going to half pay. If they then return for a full day (within the 6 months) and then go sick again their salary remains at full pay. Eventually county council personnel departments recommend a 'compromise agreement' to pay them off in order to reduce the serious effects on a school budget. Scandalous.

Incompetent teachers should be sacked like any other profession. Unfortunately in the public sector incompetence seems to be the norm!

The BBC's Panorama has learnt that only 18 UK teachers have been struck off for incompetence in the past 40 years. What is the best way to handle incompetence?
----------------------

So what, the BBC think more teachers should be sacked, why? Is it just to make up the numbers? Would people be happy that 50% of teachers were sacked, were is the line to be drawn, who decides it and why?

What is incompetence in teaching anyway? Is it the teachers fault that some children don't want to learn?

23. At 10:34am on 04 Jul 2010, scrapthebbc2 wrote:
Any bad teachers should be offered training to overcome any problems they may have,if this does not improve them they should not be allowed to continue teaching.Of course this would never happen as all pulic sector workers,NHS.Teaching,Police etc tend to turn a blind eye to incompetent,lazy or generally poor colleagues.This is real reason that teachers and the unions oppose school tests as it highlights the underperforming schools and hence enderperforming teachers.

============================================

Wow. Your post has changed my mind. Whoever taught you English should have been sacked! Your spelling, punctuation AND grammar are shocking. Plus you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Before you start slamming public sector jobs, take a look at what educational skills and qualifications your teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen and women have to go through. I'm guessing they can spell better than you can and know where to put a comma and a full stop!

However, was it your teacher who was incompetent or did you just not try hard enough? Teachers can only do so much in the circumstances they find themselves in.

Whilst Chris Woodhead has always struck me as an odd parochial little man with a particular axe to grind, I have met teachers who I am surprised manage to find their way to work each morning let alone transfer any skills or knowledge to people's children.

They should be shipped out to the colonies and forced to eat small bits of the rocks they have to break all day long. In searing heat. And in the nack.

· 27. At 10:46am on 04 Jul 2010, SJF102 wrote:
Anyone in any other job would if they was incompetent be sacked, so why doesn't it happen in schools and other civil service jobs?

#################

Politicians?

Bankers?

BA Management?

Council officials?

Wiser than you ?



The list is endless

What is an incompetent teacher?
A teacher who cannot teach effectively in a class with rowdy students is NOT incompetent in my opinion.
I have always thought that manners are instilled at home, and teachers teach what parents cannot (not do not have time for).

You may disagree with me. Then, OK, sack all those teachers who are incompetent in your book. But with teaching salaries and working conditions and disdain attached to the profession from the rest of the society, don't expect to find many "competent" people.

For a teacher to be struck off usually requires a serious disciplinary breach. That doesn't mean that no other incompetent teachers have stopped teaching - far from it.

Every year, teachers are dismissed from their job following capability proceedings. That doesn't mean they are struck off the GTC, but it does mean they are sacked for incompetence, and would be extremely unlikely to get another teaching job.

Far more numerous are those who quit their jobs - sometimes with a little pressure from above (it's easier all round if a teacher quits than has to be sacked) - because they know they are not up to it. Years ago, that's exactly what I did. I jumped before I was pushed, because I knew that (a) I didn't want to stay, and (b) even if I did, I would have been sacked.

As for Prof Burgess saying "If you took all these people out, stopped them from teaching the children and replaced them even with just average teachers, that would be something like half a grade per pupil", what an idiot. If there were enough 'just average' teachers, schools wouldn't employ inadequate ones. The only reason that inadequate teachers get jobs is because schools are desperate (particularly in certain subjects and certain parts of the country), and sometimes have to take on teachers who they wouldn't choose to, because it's a choice between a weak teacher or no teacher at all.

The first thing must be to remove an incompetent teacher from the classroom, so that children's education is not compromised. There are probably two broad categories of incompetence. The first is where the teacher is likely to acquire (or re-acquire) the necessary competence through re-training, and could be guaranteed a training place - though not on full pay. The second category would be teachers who are considered beyond help through training or do not improve with re-training. For them it should be the sack, I'm afraid - it's a hard world and soon to become harder.

Teaching is the profession that teaches all the other professions.

It's all very well to call for incompetent teachers to be sacked as so many are doing here, but what about attracting in the good teachers too? In my view, reducing teacher's job security and making employment fairly competitive should also mean that we pay the best more. A teacher should come into the profession on a low starting salary and provided that they are good at their job, as measured by the appraisal system, they go up the scale in annual increments. This should go on until they reach a point where they can't achieve the target set for their next level and stop and if the quality drops then their pay should too. Reward success.

At 10:46am on 04 Jul 2010, SJF102 wrote:

Anyone in any other job would if they was incompetent be sacked, so why doesn't it happen in schools and other civil service jobs?

SJF - teachers are not civil servants.

18. At 10:27am on 04 Jul 2010, EBAYTKMAX wrote:
Each Teacher should have an assessor in their class 7 times a year but without

them knowing, they will be assessed that day! The assessor is to be there all

day. And for a different time of the year, 7 times the same assessor is to

check the students work/books/projects etc.If then it is noted that their work
& the students work is below 90% then the Teacher is to go on a refresher

course! Seven months later approx. the Assessor is to be with the Teacher

again, if still no improvement, then its TIME THEY WENT!

In principle, a good idea, but let's not create more costs, bureaucracy and big-brotherism by hiring outside 'assessors'. What you're suggesting should surely be the job of the Head teacher. More important than all the bureaucratic bumf that Heads have to deal with - so let's stop asking them to be office managers and give them time to look after teaching standards!

6. At 10:04am on 04 Jul 2010, Mad Max and Satan Dog Paddy wrote:
When I was at school in 1969, within the 40 years of the Panorama review, One teacher was a frightening Alcoholic, who used to drink whisky from a Hip flask in the stock room. Another teacher was also an Alcoholic, and also had personality problems, infact many years later whilst a Police officer in the Midlands I met this man sleeping rough, and drinking cider in a church yard. Another teacher was a lecherous sex pest, but was revered by the school because he was a drama Teacher, and had appeared on TV. All three were poor teachers and should have had the Push. Certain of the English teachers were trendy lefties, who tried to indoctrinate the kids with left wing policies, and gave the kids booze and dope on field studies. Not good...


////

All that just to have a dig a the Left? Seems like your teachers were incompetent as well.

You mean there are some competent ones?

They should be sacked, as any other incompetent worker would be. Instead, they are coddled, protected or passed around failing schools like a bad smell.

if the can`t teach what is the point of employing them ?,sack the lot , a childs future is at stake ,whe cannot ignore them,
they must prove there woth after all ,they get paid enough

As part of my job, I provide "structured support" for teachers who are strugging. If this support does not work, most teachers recognise the benefits of "jumping" voluntarily before it goes on record that they were "pushed".
To sack more teachers you would have to get in early,intervening at the first sign of any problem - and how many teachers never had a problem at some point?

20. At 10:31am on 04 Jul 2010, EBAYTKMAX wrote:
Having said all that in my last comment.....I WOULDN'T BE A TEACHER, FOR ALL

THE MONEY IN THE WORLD!!Kids today got no respect!!I think they do a fab

job!!!

------

Well said.

Kids are one things, their parents are worse.

Still worse is the scornful comments for teachers coming from people with half the education a teacher has.

And the worst is people telling that teaching is not a real job. This coming from people such as mortgage consultants, cab drivers, insurance salesmen, hairdressers, etc.

Having such a varied i am surprised that teachers can be considered incompetent because if the are rubbish in 1 field then they can quickly be moved to a filed that they excel.

If they are truly and 100% incompetent, well then they should be struck off.

Make them stand in the corner

I think this really does shine some light on the teaching profession. I am 19, and just going into my second year of University education.

Many times i have had to be schooled by teachers who i know, the class knows, and the senior management knows are incompetent and as a result they are completely walked over by all in sundry throughout their profession.

Not only this, but it begs an important question when your teacher is mis-spelling words and you have to put your hand up to correct them.

So often, the teacher's incompetence would be masked by using the children as scapegoats. I had one such case whgere my teacher considered herself a disciplinarian; she had so little respect for the pupils she was teaching that they would play her at her own game and treat her with the same level of respect. Every lesson she had, she would endure mayhem, and she can't have felt good at the end of the day.

I was once called into a meeting with my parents over this, and it is very difficult to say in front of your parents and the head of the department and the teacher in question, that she simply cannot teach.

Come parents evening, tens of parents complained about her. In the end she left, but no doubt to another school after reading this article.

This country has a long history of incompetence. I think the problem is that people are too afraid to say to something to someone which may cause offence.

Honesty to others as well as yourself is the only way you can identify any weak areas which ned to be improved, so just sack them and give them a full de briefing on their short comings.

The other part of this problem is the ridiculous recruitment process in this country. Common sense has all but left this country.

Ministers are another part of the problem. Government is, and never has been, in touch with what is happening on the front lines of the different departments. If the education system is failing is failing then so is the minister leading that department.

Mp's are just too involved, the teachers should have the biggest say as they are the experts.

As for the bankers who ruined the world wide economy?

Banned from ever working in the industry again.

· 42. At 11:09am on 04 Jul 2010, headteacher_95 wrote:
As a head teacher who has taken a teacher down competency recently...you are faced with the unions who immediately advise the teacher to go sick on a stress related illness. At this stage the competency procedure is placed on hold until their return. A teacher can then go 'sick' on full pay for up to 6 months before going to half pay. If they then return for a full day (within the 6 months) and then go sick again their salary remains at full pay. Eventually county council personnel departments recommend a 'compromise agreement' to pay them off in order to reduce the serious effects on a school budget. Scandalous.

###############################


Scandalous

Much like Fred Goodwin over his "unacceptable" £16m pension.

I think you will find the private sector is much better a rewarding incompetence than the public sector

I am in the Police Force and we have the same capability procedures for dismissal of incompetent staff as the Education system and as a result dealing with someone who is not performing properly is a complete nightmare. The whole ethos is to give them chance after chance after chance and even at the end of that dismissal is very unlikely and a 'developmenal move' as it is called is the usual result; just moving the problem elsewhere. The whole system is a joke and poorly perfomring and incompetent staff are paid good wages out of the tax payers pocket to be carried along with other very hard working, good people would love their job. This wouldn't happen in the private sector. It destoys the morale of the hard working officers/staff who carry these individuals and whom have no faith in the system. The process usually takes a couple of years with the end result being just a move. The Police Force, like education, is so scared of tribunals they let poor staff stay in and dictate how they perform rather than getting rid of them and putting good people in their place.

Well judging from past practise they should move onwards and upwards until they control all society.

Excuse my bitterness but the (literally) long haired, sandal wearing unionisters who "taught" me during the early Seventies have done just that!

Perhaps the ones who like to critice teachers, call them incompetent etc., should be encouraged to try the job the first. I can assure you that far more damage to education results from political dogma and the classroom mayhem that results from it. If you really want to correctly apportion blame to our failing education system, start with the politicians who have removed every vehicle of control from classroom teachers.
Then move on to the parents who have raised their selfish kids to have no respect for others, to have no notion as to what discipline is and to enter class hell bent on making the teacher's life as difficult as possible. It is no wonder we have "incompetent teachers": the job is approaching undoable.

If you think I am wrong, as I said at the start, give it a go.

Incidently, Continuous Professional Development, involving regular appraisal and compulsory training has been in place for years.

i was teached by a very good english. teacher and i am nothing wrong with me so Stop blameing teachers. if you can be as well edukated as me then what the problm.

AmericanGirl UK -

"Anyone deemed incompetent is observed and given feedback."

Wow, what a merciless profession that must be. Be competent or get observed.

"Teachers can only do so much in the circumstances they find themselves in."

Your own grammar isn't great, is it; I wouldn't throw stones if I were you.

I think not only are a number of teachers incompetent, but head teacherss and senior management teams are severly lacking: My views
Firstly - Teaching is not a profession - evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of teachers fail to conduct themselves in even a reasonably professional manner. Their qualification involves a certiificate in education - not a set of professional exams.
Further evidenced by having no appraisal for teachers (even on an annual basis.
Further evidenced by the fact (as reported in yesterdays BBC news) that assistants are teaching classes!
Further evidenced by the standards of childrens intellect and employability which are coming through the system.
Teachers will routinely comment that it is the system which is wrong but they still, do not attempt to change it. They complain about long hours - if they wanted an hourly rate rather than a salary, they should work in the office/canteen!! Professionals do not get paid by the hour unless under temporary contract.
BRING ON THE ACADEMY SYSTEM (SCHOOLS CALLED SOMETHING ELSE) BUT BRING WITH IT ACCOUNTABILITY!!!! AND NARROW UNIONS'REMITS

In my eyes, Teachers generally, are of as much importance as our Troops, Firemen, Medical staff, Police officers etc.

It's obvious that incompetent 'Teachers' should be examined more stringently BEFORE they are actually placed in the Education-system. If incompetence is apparent, these 'Teachers' should be offered the option of 'brushing-up' or similar 're-training' - at a cost to themselves. But of course, we have to wonder if these people were actually 'adequate' - from the start...

I'm not too conversant with the training of Teachers, but I hope they also have some kind of 'periodical' examinations throughout their career. An incompetent Teacher, has the potential to ruin so many lives - in total ignorance.

On the other hand, the Public & Government should treat good teachers - with far greater respect. We can waste all the money we want to improve our Education-system, but without competent Teachers - our Children AND our Country - will continue to decline...

I have little or no respect for the profession.

I was failed by qualified and unqualified teachers during the whole of my school life, dyslexia wasn't recognised, you were put down as 'thick and stupid in all academic subjects' but I excelled at practical subjects, all sports, sewing and cooking. It was amazing how little praise I got when I won the trophy cups for the school. Now we have the aid of correcting spelling on the computer my life has been made a lot easier, I will never forget one teacher when I asked her how to spell the word 'physician' was told look it up in the dictionary, when out of frustration, I told her 'if I knew how to spell it I wouldn't need a dictionary' I got a detention and a 1000 lines to write saying - I must learn how to use a dictionary - and spent the entire lesson trying to find physician in the Fs. To cap it all was rewarded with the sarcastic comments 'a very poor attempt, should had done more in the time' - these words will be etched on my memory for ever.

Years later when my own children attended school I saw history repeating itself and when I tried to get teachers to see what was happening they weren't interested. However, in 1987/86 teachers went on strike and were out for 32 weeks of their 37 weeks year and my daughter exams results were going to be a joke. I now think this was strike deliberate by the teachers as they hadn't done their job. The children formed their own self help group, one was a maths wizard, another english, they had all the subjects covered, some by parents, and taught themselves. It was the highest passes that the school had ever achieved both in practical work and examinations. It said a lot for teachers who tried to claim the glory, but the out going head boy berated the teachers at the new intake parents evening and challenged they abilities. Parents were now alerted to the failings of the teachers and for once they had to do the job they were paid to do, Teach and teach effectually.

When my grandchild started school, low and behold, nothing had changed. One teacher 'cherry picked' her class of 30 pupils, so she remained the top reception teacher and the other two teachers had no choice but to divided the remainder between them and has classes of 33 and 34 children !!

So I am still of the opinion that some teachers have a cushy number while other teachers are given the children with some abilities and the behaviour problems from good to extremely challenging. In this situation it won't matter how good the teacher is, he/she will be labelled. The system needs to change and go back to 'streaming' where every child will excels in some subject and has real problems in others, and will be in a class for their own ability and not age.

I have had thirty years of formal education full time and part time from the age of three, (Lessons, the three R's, not play-school), to thirty three, including a year at the Army School of Electronics.
During that time I studied up to what today is regarded as degree standard in electrical, mechanical and production engineering and the BIM Diploma in Management Studies.

Because of the growing failures of the educational system in the late 1960's I developed what my boss named the Distance Learning System for continuing the education of people working in my department.

From the age of fourteen to sixteen I attended the Dudley and Staffordshire Technical College where I was taught how to use research libraries and how to tackle examinations. We had three exams per day for two weeks at the end of each term and after that experience no one in our classes had "exam nerves", exams were just routine.

What have I learned?

I have been fortunate in having encountered many excellent teachers. Those who could "teach" have NEVER told me to go and read a text book and I have spent time and effort moving from "teachers" who can't to another college. Those who can teach have put the idea into my head that there is more to learn than they have told me so that I have gone to look for myself - a good teaching technique.

If there is a need to winkle out the "teachers" who can't simply make a list of those who complain that there isn't enough money to buy text books.

The skill of a manager is primarily to identify what an individual enjoys doing and is good at and marrying such capabilities to the needs of the employer.

The people who can't teach do have an educational background, they are not imbeciles, their managers should be using the talents they do have otherwise it's the managers who should be looking at their positions.

One Americanism that I welcome into the English language is "If I had me 'druthers"

If I had me 'druthers I wouldn't allow anyone to teach above primary school level until they had earned a living wage in either industry or commerce so that they know what pupils can expect to encounter after they leave school.

I've known a number of ex industrial foremen who have gone into teaching and wouldn't dream of going back into industry, "Teaching is a cushy overpaid job" in comparison

When dealing with someone who is unsuitable for employment in a particular job it is better all round to advise them of it early and help them find their niche in life rather than formally declare them useless. Nobody is useless but they need to focus on their strengths to find suitable employment not their weaknesses.

Undersubscribed profession, so we're hardly going to be striking people off left right and centre if there's not enough to fill jobs as it is.

Their employment should be terminated, providing remedial procedures have been implemented to address/improve their competency & performance. Why should teachers be treated differently to an employee in any other sector of industry? If a person cannot competently do the job they are employed to do, to the standard expected & required, they should be dismissed.

Like every other employee is. Understand whether problem is a lack of training, skills, knowledge and experience, is their performance effected by problems with a class or years group or doe they have personal problems effecting their performance - give them support and if that fails then managed them out.

Same as any other profession - if you can't do the job the you shouldn't be able to continue in the job.

With teaching it is especially important since one poor teacher can affect the lives of so many people whose lives can be ruined by not getting the education they should have.

There was a guy I know who signed up for a course to learn to be a bridge teacher. He failed the course and was refused the certification that would alow him to be an English Bridge Union accredited teacher. He asked why and was told that he had failed on teaching ability.

He appealed and won - on the grounds that he was a professional teacher!

It is even more important in teaching than in any other profession to set AND UPHOLD standards.

'Competency' is often linked directly to resources.
Sometimes someone classed as incompetent would not have been so had they been given the same resources as others. This is true of all careers.
Often the fault is poor line management.

My second line of thought showing why Head Teachers and Unions need to be careful now is this -
As non-lawyers we have all to often heard spurious rubbish coming from teaching and head-teaching unions that what they quote 'is the law'. This rhetoric, to be obstructive and frustrating within the system, is designed to ensure they do not face scrutiny, and is contrived from reading single lines from legislation - wholly out of context, but for their own gratuitious benefit.
How about this - significant numbers of teachers are incomopetent.
Head Teachers are aware of this, but do not instigate procedures to improve those teachers nor remove them. A lack of suitable reports are being made to the GTC etc. Indeed references are being given with the knowledge that they are not reflective of the persons ability.
Haed Teachers are classing themselves as professionals - surely then accountable!!
Children are amonst the most vulnerable persons in our society, unable even as a school group to abstain from poor schools and/or poor teaching methods.
I have been appalled by unions and teachers using the 'Protection of vulnerable perons' legislation to get out of doing things, including letting ambulance drivers into a school unless they were vetted!!
As a 'professional' Head Teacher/Teacher, and as a union it may be interesting to read (in full context) how the PoVP legislation may affect their behaviour with regard to teaching standards!!
Well they may spend their time talking down to kids rather than empowering them with skills for life - but when they start to mis-quote legislation on such issues then people should be aware the legislation is there to prevent such weak management and is not actually as quoted.
Sub-standard teaching is easy to eradicate if schools' management want to - I think they don't know how to!! But our economy actually depends upon it!!
I look forward to techers and head teachers being represented in court by thier unions for sub-standard teaching which has violated the right of a vulnerable group of children.
Is that why they only use the word 'safeguarding'?!??

Incompetancy is dealt with in many companies by promotion - whilst this may seem perverse, a good manager knows that promoting the incompetant out will keep the productive usefull people in.

A lifetime in industry, and decades working overseas, has shown this to be the rule not the exception.

The government gets exactly the education system it pays for, It does not want vast armies of thinking people. You can not maintain the status quo in favor of the wealthy minority with a thinking electorate best to dumb them down through mindless tv and half truths regurgitate old news as if its new stir up and devide and conquer it has always been the way and it isnt going to change anytime soon.
Its only an issue if its in the sun or on eastenders
Blame the old government for the mistakes even though Mps of all parties were in parliament voting on the issues to serve the paymasters of the large corporations that they hope to get a directorship of when finished playing at being a public servant.

The standards in schools today is terrible, do not take my word for it go to you local library look at a text book from the 1950's aimed at 11-13yr old's and you will see that most school leavers would not have a clue about calculus, Standards are not rising the tests are getting simpler. as a parent of 5 kids it troubles me to think that I knew more at 11 than many of today's school leavers do.

69. At 11:57am on 04 Jul 2010, yorkshire News wrote:
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Well said Sir it is a joke albeit a sick joke.

Headteacher_95 (post 42) might like to look at his/her own performance if a member of their staff is off on long-term stress.

Teaching is difficult - moreover, it is common for teachers to be rated good in one school and inadequate in another (there is a whole thread on TES dedicated to this topic). Because of the quality and nature of teacher training, it is very difficult for an incompetent teacher to qualify.

However, it is very common for the quality of leadership and management in schools to have a profound effect on the ability of teachers to perform. On the whole, teachers are dedicated, hard working professionals. Their performance depends on support from management - and that is where the buck stops. Many good teachers are obliged to move schools due to incompetence at the top. Headteachers should be obliged to have a personnel management qualification, and 360-degree reviews.

My brother-in-law was Deputy Head and Senior Science Master, he lived for teaching. When the Head retired he was promoted to Head, he declined the position and retired. As Head he would only have time for minimal teaching, the bulk of his effort would be school administration. The schoool lost a dedicated teacher.

When schools become independant, the work load on Heads and Deputy Heads will increase, the outside bureaucracy interference of so-called "education experts" will reduce, a change in philosophy will be required.

69. At 11:57am on 04 Jul 2010, yorkshire News wrote:
i was teached by a very good english. teacher and i am nothing wrong with me so Stop blameing teachers. if you can be as well edukated as me then what the problm.
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The problem my friend is that you were "teached" by an Idiot.

who is judging them? we need to stop interfering in the profession, we need to stop politicians using as there own little empire, after all very few politicians know anything about good education! Gove must be thrilled with his little self! all those people to lord it over and he has no experience whatsoever. lets give education its own control, controlled by educationalists not headline grabbing politicians then those who are not doing so well may well flourish as they may be valued, supported and trained.

There can surely be few teachers who are incompetent, because they all managed to pass their teaching degrees, proving that they were all, at one time, competent.

Seems to me that the government / civil service is trying to shift the blame. They are the ones who have taken away teachers' power to enforce discipline in the classroom, while forcing other difficulties upon the teachers (non-English-speaking pupils, large class sizes, nonsense inspection criteria, long working hours etc.).

If this report is true then there is a serious problem in our schools and vindicates the lost generation of children to poor standards of education throughout Nu-La phoney watch, is`nt it well the big supermarkets educate their trainees, and thats what we know about. I wonder what other companies have educational programmes in place to educate their new arrivals. Does`nt EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION ring so hollow by the shallow idiot and liar who coined it. But there`s more to this. It`s the numbers of teachers who are quitting over ill health, especially with nervous breakdowns that I hear about, is the very worring trend. Reflect this throughout the country and we have more than a real problem.
Just a few days ago in between times when my "foeteeen y,old was doin! his fings" I asked him casually , "is it really that bad" he replied, "you don`t want to know hurrumph", and was gone. Now I can`t speak for any other parent. But I can say hand on heart, in that wonderful communication with him, he has explained in brilliant detail in no uncertain and in an excellant grammatical way what we all know, schools are failing our children, big way with dud teachers and falling standards. How many times has it got to be said, give the classrooms back to the teachers, back them the good ones sack the duds and get control and discipline back into the school and clessrooms.

this is nothing new. The old phrase "if you cant, teach" is as valid now as it was 20 years ago. Teaching is, and always has been, beset by the same age-old problems such as bureaucracy, politics, incompetence and bullying. The more recent problems to add to that include the lack of control/"say" which teachers now have. It is now the children who run the schools NOT the teachers-they only administer schools.

It is no wonder with all of this that teaching attracts staff who cant find a job anywhere else.

I used to teach and when I was training there were many who couldnt even remember A-level maths when they had(apparently) only just completed their degree course. They were about to teach Maths. If they cannot understand/remember A-level material how would they cope when they are alone with A-level students in the classroom?

I was also asked by an English teaching trainee what the difference was between an adjective and an adverb. I was teaching Maths.

These are not isolated cases I assure you. The standard of these PGCE courses is also a huge worry.

Anyone from Panorama can contact me if needed.

There are far more incompetent parents than there are incompetent teachers. What will be done about them?

Reflect, re-train or re-consider one's career path. I think the same applies to any job.

But do not forget - these figures alleging the small number of teachers being sacked through incompetence do not account for the thousands who have left the profession due to disillusionment or stress-related health problems.

Many issues need addressing, including pay.

During my first three years as an NQT, my wife earned more than me as a check-out person at Tescos. This cannot be right.

The old chestnut about 'all the longer holidays' doesn't wash either. I spend half of all my breaks either catching up on work, further training or preparing for the next term.

I work in a number of schools as a drama facilitator and most appear to have excellent teachers. However in one school I am appalled by the fact a head teacher who has had many problems in other schools because of her policies and behaviour towards staff, is allowed to have so much power in this particular primary school. She was escorted by the police from one school because of her aggression towards staff but is allowed to be a head teacher in another?! She is rude to staff in front of pupils and continually sacks staff who are excellent teachers just because they stand up to her. She allows her 'favourites' to come in late to teach and bully other members of staff. I am shocked by this school and will not be teaching there again. For a year it has been an eye opener to see how badly managed a school is allowed to be. Maybe look at the teachers but I think Ofsted should really be looking at what teachers say about the management as well- this happens in a lot of schools according to friends and colleagues and is frustrating as it is not fair on pupils and teachers.

How about the same way we handle useless politicians - promote them.

I well recall one Lord being done for perjury and serving time. Its okay though he is still allowed to remain a Lord.

As a newly qualified teacher I am stuck on supply due to a lack of teaching posts. It is either the case that schools are not replacing retired teachers or that teachers who would have retired have continued on in post or become semi-retired. In the last tax year I earned less than £7k and I am thinking of quitting the profession because I cannot make ends meet at the moment. I am riled by the issue of incompetent teachers as they are taking up positions that people such as myself could fill.

I was recently in a school for several months of supply work and the member of staff I was covering for was semi retired with a second job in another sector that impinged on their teaching. They were soon to retire completely so I was hopeful of a job.

This teacher was renowned amongst students for incredibly dull lessons that consisted of copying old and outdated textbooks, never even writing on the board and treating new ideas with contempt. They were, in everyone’s opinion, an incompetent teacher.

In the time I covered their lessons I got to know the students, the classes, the schemes of work and had made great progress with the student’s attainment. It was well known that this teacher was to retire and students and staff had suggested that I put in for the post. However, the teacher decided not to retire, cutting their teaching hours instead. I had effectively been cut out of a job by an incompetent teacher who was now even more incompetent because they would have less contact with their classes.



These old teachers that do not update their practise and coast along to retirement are the ones that are incompetent and need to shape up or ship out.

First, I find this situation very disturbing. Surely all teachers have to qualify. Then why aren't the 'bad' ones filtered out at this stage?

Second, even if they scrape through their teacher training surely an annual assessment or at least a bi-annual assessment is essential.

Do they not also have to have a degree in their specialist subject?

The policy should be '3 strikes and you're out - sick or not'.

I am old enough to remember when College lecturers were NOT required to have a Teaching qualification too. Then the quality of teaching was often ghastly. In fact was a great surprise to me that anyone graduated at all. How much worse it must be for children if they have bad teachers?

It is my experience that the teaching profession is almost as corrupt as politics. It is high time it was sorted out if only for the sake of the children.

As a primary school Headteacher I have had to start the competency process with three staff. They all resigned (on the advise of their union), before reaching the final stage of dismissal and I have refused to provide references for them to pursue further teaching posts. Going through the competency procedure with a teacher is difficult - their union will fight the process even though the evidence before them is undeniable and the whole process can take up to a year. During this time the school is expected to pay for re-training and give support which is draining on other staff. What is more, you have to fight on all fronts - these people are often the most popular teachers with parents (and let's not forget about parents having their say!)and of course Ofsted don't like to see 'turbulence' on staffing. I agree with Mike Brookes that there is a moral duty to carry out the competency process, but I think we also need to look much closer at the teacher training selection process. I cannot believe the poor quality of students who walk into my school. In my opinion, too many are allowed to 'pass' as schools do not want to grasp the nettle and fail them. I have had to sit through numerous interviews where the prospective teaching candidates have been so appallingly poor, I have longed for Graham Norton's famous red chair!! I want to do the best I can for the children in our care but please can it be made just a bit easier.

We hear a lot about incompetent teachers but what about incompetent or ineffective headteachers? I have latterly worked in a school with one such head who was 'recycled' twice. She is clearly out of her depth and has turned a good school into one which struggled to achieve satisfactory at its last inspection. Although members of staff spoke to OFSTED inspectors, the SIAS inspector (it is a church school) and although the local authority is aware of the situation nothing is being done. Looking back at her track record she has left 2 previous schools in a financial mess and upset staff relations as well as presiding over a decline in standards. Such headteachers are far more dangerous than individual teachers because they destroy the effectiveness of the whole school. When is something going to be done about them?

To secure a post teachers have to pass a rigourous interview process including an observed lesson. To suggest that so called bad teachers are just moved to another school is just plain daft.

These kind of accusations only serve to further undermine the authority and credibility of classroom teachers everywhere.

The competence procedure is intended for extreme cases where all other options have failed. This is probably why there are so few cases.